frosbel: ^^^^

The case of Samuel was not Samuel himself , it was a a familiar spirit.


I have a question for you anyway :

If a MAN dies, where do the following parts of him go to :

1. Body ?
2. Soul ?
3. Spirit ?


Don't duck my question.

Thanks.

the body returns to dust...

the soul/spirit departs to God...
haven answered your question... can you answer this? one in my post which has not been addressed... you and fresky.

according to Paul in 1 Thess 4:14 "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."
How could Jesus bring with Him someone that is unconscious in soul sleep?
ma guy this shows that when we die our soul go to somewhere, we are with Jesus in heaven. When He returns as promised in the bible, He will take with Him all those who are with him in heaven and they will be reunited with their newly resurrected body.
Jesus cannot bring the saints with him unless they are already with Him.

It is not the soul that dies when we die, it is the body! It is not the soul or spirit that decays and returns to dust, it is the body! Our spirit returns to God.
Jesus Himself made sure we knew this fact when he completed His last words on the cross: Luke 23:46 "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When He had said this, He breathed His last. same with stephen

Stephen's last words were very similar: Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
He was not looking forward to an die his soul dies. He awaited the immediate fellowship with His Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

When someone we care for dies, we are sad and we do miss that person. the are better place the person can go. They are with Jesus. Death is not our final trip to oblivion. It is a homecoming with our Heavenly loving Father. paul said in Ps 116:15 "Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints."
How can death be precious to God, if His children are unconscious?
It is precious because God's children are joined to Him at death.

If your body is being ravaged by an incurable disease, look up to heaven and look forward to be joined with Jesus. Jesus said in Matt 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
There is nothing to be afraid of when facing death. Your dreams will finally come true and you will be with Jesus. You will see Jesus and be with Him, because you have met Him and knew Him while you were on this planet.

Jesus words are true!

He said about His Heavenly Father Matt 22:32 "…I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

And John 11:26 "whoever lives and believes in me will never die." NIV

As well as John 8:51 "I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." NIV

How can these promises be true if you proclaim that the soul dies! God is not to be mocked. He is the God of the living and Jesus promised we would never die. How?
Our physical body may die, but our soul and spirit lives on to be with Jesus in heaven!

Jesus explains this promise clearly in And John 11:25-26 "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

it began to look more interesting when we read about people who were resurrected...
1 Kings 17:17-24
17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

recall Genesis 35:18
18 And as her soul was departing (for she was dying), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin...
here her soul was departing... but Elijah ask God to bring back the soul of the boy... and it says the Soul Came back again... "again" means for the second time his soul is coming into him. God did not create another soul and put in him... it says his soul- meaning same soul that left came back.

if the boy is a dead soul like you said why will a soul have to come into a dead soul? i dont even know how to ask you this question... the Boy's soul was dead. so how can dead soul be put into a dead soul? because you say the soul dies and the bible say his soul came back... if he soul died it means the dead soul was put into the dead soul.

benalvino:


the body returns to dust...

the soul/spirit departs to God...
haven answered your question... can you answer this? one in my post which has not been addressed... you and fresky.

according to Paul in 1 Thess 4:14 "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."
How could Jesus bring with Him someone that is unconscious in soul sleep?
ma guy this shows that when we die our soul go to somewhere, we are with Jesus in heaven. When He returns as promised in the bible, He will take with Him all those who are with him in heaven and they will be reunited with their newly resurrected body.
Jesus cannot bring the saints with him unless they are already with Him.

It is not the soul that dies when we die, it is the body! It is not the soul or spirit that decays and returns to dust, it is the body! Our spirit returns to God.
Jesus Himself made sure we knew this fact when he completed His last words on the cross: Luke 23:46 "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When He had said this, He breathed His last. same with stephen

Stephen's last words were very similar: Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
He was not looking forward to an die his soul dies. He awaited the immediate fellowship with His Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

When someone we care for dies, we are sad and we do miss that person. the are better place the person can go. They are with Jesus. Death is not our final trip to oblivion. It is a homecoming with our Heavenly loving Father. paul said in Ps 116:15 "Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints."
How can death be precious to God, if His children are unconscious?
It is precious because God's children are joined to Him at death.

If your body is being ravaged by an incurable disease, look up to heaven and look forward to be joined with Jesus. Jesus said in Matt 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
There is nothing to be afraid of when facing death. Your dreams will finally come true and you will be with Jesus. You will see Jesus and be with Him, because you have met Him and knew Him while you were on this planet.

Jesus words are true!

He said about His Heavenly Father Matt 22:32 "…I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

And John 11:26 "whoever lives and believes in me will never die." NIV

As well as John 8:51 "I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." NIV

How can these promises be true if you proclaim that the soul dies! God is not to be mocked. He is the God of the living and Jesus promised we would never die. How?
Our physical body may die, but our soul and spirit lives on to be with Jesus in heaven!

Jesus explains this promise clearly in And John 11:25-26 "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

it began to look more interesting when we read about people who were resurrected...
1 Kings 17:17-24
17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

recall Genesis 35:18
18 And as her soul was departing (for she was dying), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin...
here her soul was departing... but Elijah ask God to bring back the soul of the boy... and it says the Soul Came back again... "again" means for the second time his soul is coming into him. God did not create another soul and put in him... it says his soul- meaning same soul that left came back.

if the boy is a dead soul like you said why will a soul have to come into a dead soul? i dont even know how to ask you this question... the Boy's soul was dead. so how can dead soul be put into a dead soul? because you say the soul dies and the bible say his soul came back... if he soul died it means the dead soul was put into the dead soul.

Your misunderstanding of the scriptures has reached its peak......

When it is said God is the God of the living and not of the dead simply means that with God we have the prospect of ressurection and living forever not that we cannot die.....

Even Jesus died for heavens sake......

Don't misconstrue Jesus' words to mean we cannot die,because God I'd the God of the living.....we are not immortals....you guys are making a joke of the ressurection....there can't be ressurection if there is no absolute death......you people should start preaching ressurection and stop this immortality of the soul gibberish....

......


Fresky has answered all your questions......

All I see is you ruNning around from the truth........

@benalvino.....see fresky's scriptural definition of soul as used in the bible..


Man/person, Animal, a person's life, man's
future life prospect, breath, life
breath....


If after he has laid down this definition and you still go back to quote the story of elijah and the widow then it means you have not being paying attention.........


Contexts determines its meanings......


Look at that list and tell me if all about soul as used in the scriptures does not fit in.........

benalvino:

wrong elijah ascended to heaven... he never died according to the bible... the transfiguration is real because Jesus was exactly how he was describe in revelation and yes Moses and Elijah are in the bosom of the lord.

I am sure you have not being to heaven before. Jesus who came from heaven said:

12 "You do not believe me when I tell you about the things of this world; how will you ever believe me, then, when I tell you about the things of heaven? 13 And no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven.” - John3:13 GNTCE

During the time of the vision, Elijah and Moses were still in the grave. They will come back to life in time of resurrection.

benalvino:

when the spirit or the soul leaves the body dies

Previously it was when the body dies it leaves; now it's when it leaves, the body dies. Now you are trying to sound like the scripture, I like that!

benalvino:

you want bible proofs. ok.
Revelation 18:13 (ESV)
13 cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human souls.
human soul here is indicating that humans(body) have soul in them... in other words it is not referring humans as soul here.

You fail woefully. None of those things are immaterial. Your soul must be immaterial, and with the capability of leaving the body at death and keep living elsewhere. Nice one, try another.

Psalm 42:6-11
New International Version (NIV)
6
My soul is downcast within me;

"Here in exile my heart is breaking,..." Ps 42:6 - GNT

therefore I will remember you
from the land of the Jordan,
the heights of Hermon—from Mount Mizar.

7
Deep calls to deep
in the roar of your waterfalls;
all your waves and breakers
have swept over me.
8
By day the Lord directs his love,
at night his song is with me—
a prayer to the God of my life.
9
I say to God my Rock,
“Why have you forgotten me?
Why must I go about mourning,
oppressed by the enemy?”
10
My bones suffer mortal agony
as my foes taunt me,
saying to me all day long,
“Where is your God?”
11
Why, my soul, are you downcast?
Why so disturbed within me?
Put your hope in God,
for I will yet praise him,
my Savior and my God.
you can see the soul is withing the body...
you say there is nothing immaterial about the soul... can you say God is material being? can you see him? what about the angels?

"Why am I so sad? Why am I so troubled?I will put my hope in God,and once again I will praise him,my savior and my God." Ps 42:11 - GNT

benalvino:

3 John 1:2
1The elder to the beloved Gaius, whom I love in truth. 2Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.
again this is showing that the soul is withing the body.

"My dear friend, I pray that everything may go well with you and that you may be in good health - as I know you are well in spirit".

The bolded is the same as ...May be in good physical health as you are spiritually. That, of course, is self-explanatory. ... As you prosper spiritually.

"From the Elder—To my dear Gaius, whom I truly love.My dear friend, I pray that everything may go well with you and that you may be in good health—as I know you are well in spirit. I was so happy when some Christians arrived and told me how faithful you are to the truth—just as you always live in the truth. Nothing makes me happier than to hear that my children live in the truth." 3 John 1-3 GNT

can you leave the kill the man in hell talk? its not possible... and they bible have told you that you cannot kill the soul but the body... the verses above shows that the body have a soul withing it. why still arguing with this one.

Yes, the verses above show that the body has heart, translated as soul within it. "Here in exile my heart is breaking..." Ps 42:6 - GNT.

3John 1-3 uses soul when referring to our spiritual well-being, as Christians. ...Nothing there is suggestive of immaterial soul that can survive outside the body.

dude the apostle saw jesus thinking he was a spirit... they believe in spirit it is not about the resurrection of saint it something that happens before their very eyes.

Saw spirit or saw escaped immaterial soul from dead body, which one? Can you see spirit?

Another big failure. Keep trying.

benalvino:

after samuel died he appeared to saul and discuss with him...

1 Samuel 28:1-20

New International Version (NIV)


28 In those days the Philistines gathered their forces to fight against Israel. Achish said to David, “You must understand that you and your men will accompany me in the army.”

2 David said, “Then you will see for yourself what your servant can do.”

Achish replied, “Very well, I will make you my bodyguard for life.”

Saul and the Medium at Endor

3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”

“There is one in Endor,” they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”

10 Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.”

11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

“Bring up Samuel,” he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

The woman said, “I see a ghostly [/b]figure coming up out of the earth.”

14 “What does he look like?” he asked.

“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 [b]Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and all that night.

Think about it. The Bible states that at death a person goes back to his ground and that "his thoughts perish."

"His breath goeth forth , he returneth to his earth ; in that very day his thoughts perish." - Psalm 146:4 KJV

Reason on the matter.

1. Both Saul and Samuel knew that God condemned contact with spirit mediums. - Lev 19:31.

2. Saul had earlier taken the lead in ridding the land of spiritistic practices! - 1Samuel 28:9

3. Why did Saul disguise himself? - 1 Samuel 28:8

4. If faithful Samuel were still alive as a spirit, would he violate God's law and cooperate with a spirit medium in order to meet Saul?

5. God had refused to talk with Saul. Could a medium, in effect, force God Almighty to communicate with Saul by means of dead Samuel?

Clearly, this "Samuel" was not God's faithful prophet in any form. It was a spirit - a wicked demon pretending to be dead Samuel.

Demons are angels who rebelled against God's authority early in man's history. (Genesis 6:1-4; Jude 6)

These demons can observe people while they are alive; they know how each one talked, looked, and acted.

They are eager to promote the idea that what the Bible says is untrue. No wonder the Bible warns against having any contact with such spirit forces! - Deuteronomy 18:10-12

These wicked spirits are still active today. Please beware of demonic tactics!

Sorry, you still can't provide any scriptural proof to back your "soul-leaves-body" belief.

Freksy:


Think about it. The Bible states that at death a person goes back to his ground and that "his thoughts perish."

"His breath goeth forth , he returneth to his earth ; in that very day his thoughts perish." - Psalm 146:4 KJV

Reason on the matter.

1. Both Saul and Samuel knew that God condemned contact with spirit mediums. - Lev 19:31.

2. Saul had earlier taken the lead in ridding the land of spiritistic practices! - 1Samuel 28:9

3. Why did Saul disguise himself? - 1 Samuel 28:8

4. If faithful Samuel were still alive as a spirit, would he violate God's law and cooperate with a spirit medium in order to meet Saul?

5. God had refused to talk with Saul. Could a medium, in effect, force God Almighty to communicate with Saul by means of dead Samuel?

Clearly, this "Samuel" was not God's faithful prophet in any form. It was a spirit - a wicked demon pretending to be dead Samuel.

Demons are angels who rebelled against God's authority early in man's history. (Genesis 6:1-4; Jude 6)

These demons can observe people while they are alive; they know how each one talked, looked, and acted.

They are eager to promote the idea that what the Bible says is untrue. No wonder the Bible warns against having any contact with such spirit forces! - Deuteronomy 18:10-12

These wicked spirits are still active today. Please beware of demonic tactics!

Sorry, you still can't provide any scriptural proof to back your "soul-leaves-body" belief.

I have done it numerous times and you ignored it... you ask in doubt where did Jesus say you will be with me in paradise i showed you and you kept mute. i have giving you number of verses where people talk about living the body and to be home with the lord you closed your eyes.

what am glad is that you have changed your mind that the soul and the body is not separable.

step by step i want to hear your statements concerning this...

1: did jesus lie to the thief when he says today you will be with me in paradise?

2: according to Paul in 1 Thess 4:14 "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."
How could Jesus bring with Him someone that is dead and is buried on earth and jesus is coming from heaven?
ma guy this shows that when we die our spirit/soul go to somewhere, the bible says the body return to dust and the spirit goes to God.
Jesus cannot bring the saints with him unless they are already with Him.
answer this again if the Bible lied.

3:you said the spirit and soul don't survive outside the body... then what Goes to God? dead spirit or soul? what are you even saying.did Jesus and Stephen send dead spirit to God?
tell me what this verses are telling you and how they could depart from their body and be with Christ if they are dead and according to you their spirit/soul dies with them. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 and
Revelation 6:9
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne
why didn't he see the souls in the grave or earth? are you going to say this means nothing again?

4: Matt 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
this verse will be a lie if you retain your words that the spirit/soul dies with the body... it means the man killed the soul... can you tell me how man manage to kill the body but not the soul? before you were saying we dont need hell and since then you keep changing your stance and i really dont know what you believe anymore that is why we cant agree... you started with the soul is not different from the body then you go to sometimes the soul is different from the body in context etc.

5: John 11:26 "whoever lives and believes in me will never die." NIV
As well as John 8:51 "I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
what does the never see death means?

How can these promises be true if you proclaim that the soul and spirit doesn't survive outside the body!didn't the bible say our body return to dust and where does the spirit goes? to God who gave it abi? you said the spirit/soul dies with the body or doesn't survive outside the body... clap for your self.
is the verses above another lie?

6: Jesus explains this promise clearly in And John 11:25-26 "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

7: 1 Kings 17:17-24
17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him. 18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed. 20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son? 21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
Nephesh = soul and some bible translate it as life or some breath but the real translation there is soul.
something cannot come into him if it didnt depart... so how can the soul come into him again if it dies with the body there?

finally Genesis 35:18
18 And as her soul was departing (for she was dying), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin...
here her soul was departing... why is it departing? didnt you say that nothing leaves the body and that they die with it?

but Elijah ask God to bring back the soul of the boy... and it says the Soul Came back again... "again" means for the second time his soul is coming into him. God did not create another soul and put in him... it says his soul- meaning same soul that left came back. how can you address this?

ijawkid:

Your misunderstanding of the scriptures has reached its peak......

When it is said God is the God of the living and not of the dead simply means that with God we have the prospect of ressurection and living forever not that we cannot die.....

Even Jesus died for heavens sake......

Don't misconstrue Jesus' words to mean we cannot die,because God I'd the God of the living.....we are not immortals....you guys are making a joke of the ressurection....there can't be ressurection if there is no absolute death......you people should start preaching ressurection and stop this immortality of the soul gibberish....

......


Fresky has answered all your questions......

All I see is you ruNning around from the truth........

hahaha how did he? go down and read how he contradicts him self...

and you misunderstand me badly... when i say God is the God of the living it mean this.

John 8:51 "I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
when Jesus died where did his spirit go to? that is the question... what about Stephen?
was the spirit buried with the body and decay?

nothing is truth to you except it is what you believe... just like how Jesus lied to the disciples that he is not a spirit. just like how he materialized and put holes in his hands and feet to deceive them. just has God vaporize his body even if bible no talk so...

so what is your point of running from the truth... instead of you to look at fresky how he changes his mouth all the time instead you said na me they run from the truth...

Freksy:
Psalm 42:6-11
New International Version (NIV)
6
My soul is downcast within me;

"Here in exile my heart is breaking,..." Ps 42:6 - GNT



"Why am I so sad? Why am I so troubled?I will put my hope in God,and once again I will praise him,my savior and my God." Ps 42:11 - GNT



"My dear friend, I pray that everything may go well with you and that you may be in good health - as I know you are well in spirit".

The bolded is the same as ...May be in good physical health as you are spiritually. That, of course, is self-explanatory. ... As you prosper spiritually.

"From the Elder—To my dear Gaius, whom I truly love.My dear friend, I pray that everything may go well with you and that you may be in good health—as I know you are well in spirit. I was so happy when some Christians arrived and told me how faithful you are to the truth—just as you always live in the truth. Nothing makes me happier than to hear that my children live in the truth." 3 John 1-3 GNT



Yes, the verses above show that the body has heart, translated as soul within it. "Here in exile my heart is breaking..." Ps 42:6 - GNT.

3John 1-3 uses soul when referring to our spiritual well-being, as Christians. ...Nothing there is suggestive of immaterial soul that can survive outside the body.



Saw spirit or saw escaped immaterial soul from dead body, which one? Can you see spirit?

Another big failure. Keep trying.

dude i dont like when people use translation to dodge truth... just like Ijawkid and bernimoore they prefer the translation with the wrong rendering... it is what you have been doing...

The word for "soul" in the Old Testament is nephesh. Nephesh is translated in following ways (the numbers being the number of occurrences of each way):

any 3
appetite 2
beast 2
body 4
breath 1
creature 9
dead 5
dead body 4
desire 4
fish 1
ghost 2
heart 15
hearty 1
herself 2
himself 8
life 117
lust 2
man 3
mind 15
mortally 1
myself 1
one 1
own 1
person 29
pleasure 3
soul 475
thing 2
themselves 3
thyself 1
will 4
would have it 1
yourselves 6

---

In the New Testament the word for "soul" is psuche. Psuche is translated in the following ways:

heart 1
heartily (combined with ek) 1
life 40
make doubt (combined with airo) 1
mind 3
soul 58
you 1


check interlinear.... you are just using what supports you. for me i dont care

almost all the bible use the right wording of soul prosper yet you choose one that renders it otherwise... this is just evading the truth you are doing here... ijawkid always does this...
the truth comes out when you compare the interlinear with other bible rendering. you have been doing it and i overlooked it but not anymore... you can continue

benalvino:

Luke 20:37-38
New International Version
37 But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a] 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

When Moses had his conversation with God at the burning bush, Abraham had been dead for 329 years, Isaac for 224, and Jacob for 197. Yet, God still said: "I am" their God. Those Sadducees knew that Yahweh is not like some pagan god of the dead, ruling a mythical underworld. No, he is the God "of the living," as Jesus said.

What must that mean? Jesus' conclusion was forceful: "for all live unto him." (Luke 20:38) God's beloved servants who have died are safely preserved in God's limitless, unfading memory. So sure is God's purpose to resurrect such ones that they may be spoken of as living. (Romans 4:16, 17) When the multitude heard that marvelous explanation of God's word by Jesus, "they were astonished at his doctrine"!—Matt 22:33.

(33) "And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine."
-Matthew 22:33 (KJV)

Jesus wouldn't have contradicted himself, neither would he have lied when he later said: 13 "And no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven.” - John 3:13 GNTCE

benalvino:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
New International Version (NIV)
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

"Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us." Eccl 12:7 GNT

The breath of life is sometimes translated as life spirit, or spirit.

At Genesis 12:7, what did God put in man through his nostril?

A. Stone
B. Water
C Immaterial soul that can survive outside the body
D The breath of life.
E. A personhood.

According to Eccl. 12:7, at death what goes out of man?

A Stone
B Water
C Immaterial soul that can survive outside the body
D The breath of life.
E A personhood.

"Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us." Eccl 12:7 GNT

"Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust." - PS 104:29-30 KJV

"When you turn away, they are afraid;when you take away your breath, they die and go back to the dust from which they came." - Ps 104:29-30 GNT.

as you can see from the verse spirit Goes back to God spirit appears and talk to people...

What did God put in man at Gen 2:7? Life breath, sometimes translated as spirit.

Man and animals have the same life spirit or breath. It was from the same source - God. At death there is no superiority over the other. The life breath or spirit goes to the same place.


19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.


21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him? - Eccl. 3:19-22 KJV




19 After all, the same fate awaits human beings and animals alike. One dies just like the other. They are the same kind of creature. A human being is no better off than an animal, because life has no meaning for either.

20 They are both going to the same place—the dust. They both came from it; they will both go back to it.

21 How can anyone be sure that the human spirit goes upward while an animal's spirit goes down into the ground?

22 So I realized then that the best thing we can do is enjoy what we have worked for. There is nothing else we can do. There is no way for us to know what will happen after we die. Eccl 3:19-22 GNT

while the spirit and the soul are distinct it is hard to differentiate.

What makes it hard to differentiate them?

.

benalvino:

I have done it numerous times and you ignored it... you ask in doubt where did Jesus say you will be with me in paradise i showed you and you kept mute. i have giving you number of verses where people talk about living the body and to be home with the lord you closed your eyes.

what am glad is that you have changed your mind that the soul and the body is not separable.

Have I ever said if soul means "breath" that it cannot leave man at death?

My question has always been, the breath that leaves the body, can it become conscious and start surviving?

Have you ever answered that question?

step by step i want to hear your statements concerning this...

1: did jesus lie to the thief when he says today you will be with me in paradise?

Where was the paradise? In heaven, on earth, or in hell/hades/grave?

Answer, then we will talk on that.

2: according to Paul in 1 Thess 4:14 "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."
How could Jesus bring with Him someone that is dead and is buried on earth and jesus is coming from heaven?
ma guy this shows that when we die our spirit/soul go to somewhere, the bible says the body return to dust and the spirit goes to God.
Jesus cannot bring the saints with him unless they are already with Him.
answer this again if the Bible lied.

3:you said the spirit and soul don't survive outside the body... then what Goes to God? dead spirit or soul? what are you even saying.did Jesus and Stephen send dead spirit to God?
tell me what this verses are telling you and how they could depart from their body and be with Christ if they are dead and according to you their spirit/soul dies with them. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 and

Though man may lie or contradict himself, but God and his son will never.

Jesus said when he will come again he will recieve them, (John 14:1-3) and you are now saying no, they were already with him.

(1) "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. (2) In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." -John 14:1-3 (KJV)

benalvino:

Revelation 6:9
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne
why didn't he see the souls in the grave or earth? are you going to say this means nothing again?

Quoting just verse 9 convinces me you are gradually seing the truth. Let add verses 10 & 11:

"10. And they cried with a loud voice , saying , How long , O Lord , holy and true , dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth ?

11. And white robes were given unto every one of them ; and it was said unto them , that they should rest yet for a little season , until their fellow servants also and their brethren , that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" Rev. 6:10-11 KJV.

1. Does immaterial soul have blood?

2. Can they put on robes or cloths?

3. Do we have blood and cloths in heaven?

4. Who are their fellow servants and brethren (of the subject of discussion, soul) that should be killed as they were.

Oh, if only you would get some tips from question 4, then you'll know that the souls mentioned there are nothing, but the dead bodies of faithful men that were slain. Their brothers are still alive on earth waiting to be slain..... by who? God? Far be it!

benalvino:

4: Matt 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
this verse will be a lie if you retain your words that the spirit/soul dies with the body... it means the man killed the soul... can you tell me how man manage to kill the body but not the soul? before you were saying we dont need hell and since then you keep changing your stance and i really dont know what you believe anymore that is why we cant agree... you started with the soul is not different from the body then you go to sometimes the soul is different from the body in context etc.

Stop this pretence. You know my position on soul. I have told you time without number, with numerous scriptural quotes on the meaning of soul. A soul being different, or not different from the body depends on the context of it usage. Is that so hard for one to understand?

I told you, no matter its usage, none will support your 'soul-leaves-body' mantra.

5: John 11:26 "whoever lives and believes in me will never die." NIV
As well as John 8:51 "I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
what does the never see death means?

How can these promises be true if you proclaim that the soul and spirit doesn't survive outside the body!didn't the bible say our body return to dust and where does the spirit goes? to God who gave it abi? you said the spirit/soul dies with the body or doesn't survive outside the body... clap for your self.
is the verses above another lie?

6: Jesus explains this promise clearly in And John 11:25-26 "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

So you believe in the resurrection. Has it occurred ? If you serve God faithfully till you die, through resurrection you will live again. Many will still be alive and witness it when it happens. The living then Will not have to die, but will witness a transition from the old to new system of thing where death will no longer exist.

benalvino:

7: 1 Kings 17:17-24
17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.

Take note of what left the son of the woman that needed to be returned - the "breath"

18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed. 20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son? 21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.

(21) Three times he stretched himself out full–length on the boy, praying with all his might, “God, my God, put breath back into this boy’s body!” - 1 Kings 17:21-22 (MSG)

22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.

(22) "God listened to Elijah’s prayer and put breath back into his body—he was alive!" - 1 Kings 17:22 (MSG)

Nephesh = soul and some bible translate it as life or some breath but the real translation there is soul.
something cannot come into him if it didnt depart... so how can the soul come into him again if it dies with the body there?

The translation of soul as used in 1 Kings 17:17-24, and other related texts, is breath.

Once again, can breath leave the body and survive elsewhere?

benalvino:

finally Genesis 35:18
18 And as her soul was departing (for she was dying), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin...
here her soul was departing... why is it departing? didnt you say that nothing leaves the body and that they die with it?

(18) "But she was dying, and as she breathed her last, she named her son Benoni, but his father named him Benjamin." - Genesis 35:18 (GNT)

Breath leaves the body. True or false. As it leaves, will it become conscious and start surviving? In case you did not know, that is what you have been believing since. Go back to Gen 2:7 again and take note of what God put in Adam throgh his nostrils to animate him.

but Elijah ask God to bring back the soul of the boy... and it says the Soul Came back again... "again" means for the second time his soul is coming into him. God did not create another soul and put in him... it says his soul- meaning same soul that left came back. how can you address this?

Not me, the scripture will address itself.

"When you ignore them, they panic. When you take away their life’s breath, they die and return to dust. When you send your life-giving breath, they are created, and you replenish the surface of the ground." Psm. 104:29,30 NET

What left the body at death, is what returns to animate it.

Freksy:

When Moses had his conversation with God at the burning bush, Abraham had been dead for 329 years, Isaac for 224, and Jacob for 197. Yet, God still said: "I am" their God. Those Sadducees knew that Yahweh is not like some pagan god of the dead, ruling a mythical underworld. No, he is the God "of the living," as Jesus said.

What must that mean? Jesus' conclusion was forceful: "for all live unto him." (Luke 20:38) God's beloved servants who have died are safely preserved in God's limitless, unfading memory. So sure is God's purpose to resurrect such ones that they may be spoken of as living. (Romans 4:16, 17) When the multitude heard that marvelous explanation of God's word by Jesus, "they were astonished at his doctrine"!—Matt 22:33.

(33) "And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine."
-Matthew 22:33 (KJV)

Jesus wouldn't have contradicted himself, neither would he have lied when he later said: 13 "And no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven.” - John 3:13 GNTCE

Elijah went to heaven as the bible says... you may not understand fully what Jesus said but people who seek for contradiction in the bible uses this verse.

Genesis 5:24
24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should[b] not see death[/b], and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.

2 Kings 2:11
11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.


as you can see... I dont want to explain what Jesus meant there but he didnt lie or contradict him self. enoch and elijah went to heaven

Freksy:

"Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us." Eccl 12:7 GNT

The breath of life is sometimes translated as life spirit, or spirit.

At Genesis 12:7, what did God put in man through his nostril?

A. Stone
B. Water
C Immaterial soul that can survive outside the body
D The breath of life.
E. A personhood.

According to Eccl. 12:7, at death what goes out of man?

A Stone
B Water
C Immaterial soul that can survive outside the body
D The breath of life.
E A personhood.

"Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us." Eccl 12:7 GNT

"Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust." - PS 104:29-30 KJV

"When you turn away, they are afraid;when you take away your breath, they die and go back to the dust from which they came." - Ps 104:29-30 GNT.



What did God put in man at Gen 2:7? Life breath, sometimes translated as spirit.

Man and animals have the same life spirit or breath. It was from the same source - God. At death there is no superiority over the other. The life breath or spirit goes to the same place.


19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.


21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him? - Eccl. 3:19-22 KJV




19 After all, the same fate awaits human beings and animals alike. One dies just like the other. They are the same kind of creature. A human being is no better off than an animal, because life has no meaning for either.

20 They are both going to the same place—the dust. They both came from it; they will both go back to it.

21 How can anyone be sure that the human spirit goes upward while an animal's spirit goes down into the ground?

22 So I realized then that the best thing we can do is enjoy what we have worked for. There is nothing else we can do. There is no way for us to know what will happen after we die. Eccl 3:19-22 GNT



What makes it hard to differentiate them?

When we die our body return to dust... spirit goes to God... not like you that says nothing leaves the body.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
why do you think Jesus commit his spirit to the father? or stephen?

there is no point arguing the rest because i agree... you also agree that something leaves the body and not like you said before that the spirit dies with the person.

benalvino:

Elijah went to heaven as the bible says... you may not understand fully what Jesus said but people who seek for contradiction in the bible uses this verse.

Would they be using such verse(s) if your understanding and explanations were not contradictory? You are even creating more contradictions in attempt to defend one falsehood.

Genesis 5:24
24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should[b] not see death[/b], and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.

Enoch as a prophet of God foretold God's coming with his angels to execute judgment against the ungodly. (Jude 14, 15) Persecution was likely brought against him because of his prophesying. However, God did not permit his opposers to kill Enoch. Instead God "took him," evidently meaning that He cut short Enoch's life at an age far below that of most of his contemporaries. Hebrews 11:13 shows that Enoch died.

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." Heb 11:13 NKJV

You are contradicting the bible further, stop it! Enoch is among "THESE ALL" said to have "DIED IN FAITH". It was a favor done to him by God for not allowing him to see or suffer death in the hands of his enemies. He actually lost nothing, for in time of resurrection, our Enoch will be back to life.

2 Kings 2:11
11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

After the event, Elijah was still alive and active as a prophet in the territory of Judah. The Bible tells us: "And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet ,saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father ,Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father ,nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah" - 2 Chron. 21:12-15 KJV

This letter foretold the sickness and death of Jehoram because of his wrong, idolatrous course.

Research and confirm the above and stop creating contradictions in where none existed.

No conscious immaterial entity leaves man at death, it's satanic and platonic philosophy.

as you can see... I dont want to explain what Jesus meant there but he didnt lie or contradict him self. enoch and elijah went to heaven

As I can see what? The contradictions YOU have created for critics to use against God and his word? You don't want to explain, why? If case is not taken that clear statement by Jesus at John 3:13 will become a mystery.

However, has it occurred to you that the two can never be correct? It's either Elijah and Enoch went to God's presence in heaven, or Jesus lied.

It behooves you to defend the truth you claim you uphold.

Please reconcile your belief on Enoch's and Elijah's ascension to God's presence in heaven with John 3:13 and Hebrews 11:13

benalvino:

When we die our body return to dust... spirit goes to God... not like you that says nothing leaves the body.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

What is that spirit that returns? Does it become conscious and survive in spirit realm?

When man and animal die, are their conditions different in any way?

why do you think Jesus commit his spirit to the father? or stephen?

At the time of his death, Jesus expressed confident and trust in his father's ability to bring him back to life. As his life's spirit went out of him, he was not literally on his way to heaven. Jesus was not resurrected from the dead until the third day, and it was 40 days later that he ascended to heaven. Read Acts 1:3,9.


Stephen, like his other first century brothers, had heavenly hope too. They knew they will be resurrected as spirit persons, since flesh and blood cannot go to God's presence in spiritual heaven. Christians then also knew that they needed to wait for Jesus to come again before their heavenly hope could be realized. What Stephen did is probably what you would have done, if in a similar situation - he said his last prayer to the LORD. His request was to be granted in a distance time in the future - time of resurrection, in Jesus' second return.

(1) "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. (2) In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

(3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." -John 14:1-3 (KJV)

Was the bolded to fulfill in time of Stephen? I am sure you are familiar with the expression: "the second coming of Christ".

there is no point arguing the rest because i agree... you also agree that something leaves the body and not like you said before that the spirit dies with the person.

Life-breath or life-spirit has no personality and no thinking ability. Humans and animals "have all one spirit/breath." Eccl 3:19 YLT/KJV

When a person dies, therefore, his spirit/breath does not go on existing in another realm as a spirit creature.

At death no actual movement from the earth to the heavenly realm occurs when the spirit "returns" to God. Once the life-spirit is gone from a person, only God has the ability to restore it to him. So the spirit "returns to the true God" in the sense that any hope of future life for that person now rests entirely with God.

Please answer the following questions:

1. You say two things literally leave a man at death - SOUL and SPIRIT. What is the difference between the two?

2. Do animals have life breath/spirit? If yes, at death their life breath or spirit returns to who?

3. Does the so called "spiritual realm for the departed souls of the deads" also harbor those of animals, if no, why?

4. What is your answer to Solomon's question at Eccl 3:21?

5. In what sense can it be said that the life spirit, or spirit "returns" to God, is it like smokes ascending from ground to physical heaven?

6. Does the life breath or life spirit that "returns" to God at death later become conscious and start living as spirit creatures somewhere?

dude...
i will give up... it was clear that enoch did not die... but you are stating otherwise...
paul clear state that he did not see death
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.

paul has excluded enoch and in verse 13 the rest died in faith... am really tired... enoch and elijah did not see death. God took them why are you still arguing... only when you are ready for me to explain what Jesus means before i will do... for now you are wrestling with the scripture... paul made it clear enoch did not see death. verse 13 says other saints died in faith... elijah and enoch are in heaven along with some saints that resurrect with Jesus and ascend to heaven.

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[a] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

these are all the people who died by faith and not enoch because paul made it clear that he should not see death... i am tired of arguing this...

the bible says not everyone will see death before Jesus comes... in our generation many will not see... elijah and enoch didnt see also...

benalvino: dude...
i will give up... it was clear that enoch did not die... but you are stating otherwise...

So as to avoid my questions?

paul clear state that he did not see death
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.

Enoch was apparently in mortal danger, but God did not allow him to suffer at the hands of his enemies. He was transferred so as not to see death. This does not mean that God took him to heaven, where he kept on living. Jesus was the first one to ascend to heaven. (John 3:13; Hebrews 6:19, 20) Enoch's being "taken so as not to see death" may mean that God put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated his life while he was in that state. Under such circumstances, Enoch did not suffer, or "see death," at the hands of his enemies.

" We have this hope as an anchor for our lives. It is safe and sure, and goes through the curtain of the heavenly temple into the inner sanctuary. On our behalf Jesus has gone in there before us and has become a high priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek". Heb. 6:19-20 GNT

"This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek". Hebrews 6:19-20 NKJV

No man has ever left the earth to the presence of God in spiritual heaven. Paul clearly stated that Jesus was the forerunner. Hebrews 6:19-10 confirms John 3:13 that no one has precceded Jesus in ascension to the presence of God in heaven.

paul has excluded enoch and in verse 13 the rest died in faith... am really tired... enoch and elijah did not see death. God took them why are you still arguing... only when you are ready for me to explain what Jesus means before i will do... for now you are wrestling with the scripture... paul made it clear enoch did not see death. verse 13 says other saints died in faith... elijah and enoch are in heaven along with some saints that resurrect with Jesus and ascend to heaven.

Enoch was among those faithful ones who served God till the end of their life course. There is no expression in verse 13 which suggests that Enoch was excluded.

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[a] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

these are all the people who died by faith and not enoch because paul made it clear that he should not see death... i am tired of arguing this...

Paul made it clear that Enoch should not see death in whose hand?

It has eluded you that by starting your quote from Verse 7 you would not only exclude Enoch, but Abel too. So Abel too did not die in faith. Paul excluded none of them.

You just don't know what you are saying. So Abel and Enoch later lost their faith in God.

There is no expression in verse 13 which suggests that any of them was excluded.

God took Enoch's life so that he would not experience the pangs of death in the hands of his enemies. Then "he was not found," apparently because God disposed of his body, even as he disposed of Moses' body.- Deut. 34:5, 6.

Jesus was the "forerunner" of all who ascend to heaven..Heb 6:19-20; John3:13

the bible says not everyone will see death before Jesus comes... in our generation many will not see... elijah and enoch didnt see also...

Since you cannot reconcile Hebrews 11:13 with your belief, what about John 3:13 and Hebrews 6:19-20?


1. You said two things literally leave a man at death - SOUL and SPIRIT. What is the difference between the two?

2. Do animals have life breath/spirit? If yes, at death their life breath or life spirit "returns" to who?

3. What is your answer to Solomon's question at Eccl 3:21?

4. In what sense can it be said that the life spirit, or spirit "returns" to God, is it like smokes ascending from ground to physical heaven?

5. Does the life breath or life spirit that "returns" to God at death later become conscious and start living as spirit creatures somewhere?

6. In the realm of the so called "departed souls", are those of dead animals also present?

Paul made it clear that Enoch should not see death in whose hand?

It has eluded you that by starting your quote from Verse 7 you would not only exclude Enoch, but Abel too. So Abel too did not die in faith. Paul excluded none of them.

You just don't know what you are saying. So Abel and Enoch later lost their faith in God.

There is no expression in verse 13 which suggests that any of them was excluded.

God took Enoch's life so that he would not experience the pangs of death in the hands of his enemies. Then "he was not found," apparently because God disposed of his body, even as he disposed of Moses' body.- Deut. 34:5, 6.

Jesus was the "forerunner" of all who ascend to heaven..Heb 6:19-20; John3:13

Yeah right... God killed him same way he killed Elijah abi? i gave up... because you are putting words into the bible... what will be the difference if God kills someone that didn't do anything and if he was killed by wicked people... i don't understand you again... which part of he should not see death do you not understand... if God kills him isn't that death?

is it God that killed moses also? I just dont understand your point...
yet again...
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death(now if God killed him is that not death he saw? what makes you add that it means he will not see death from his enemies? does this even make sense?)
; and he was not found because God took him up(He never died and was never found for God took him... in the case of moses he was dead he saw death and satan and michael fought for his body... it is different. why do you want to know what God did to his body... did you know what happened to noah's ark? i still want to know where God killed him and send him to grave for no reason.); for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up(Why is he taken up when you said he died... isnt he suppose to be at his grave as everything dies with him till resurrection... so which taken up is this verse talking about?) he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

13 All these died in faith(but it says enoch never sees death so from noah down to sarah they all died in faith but it says enoch never see death), without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

what about elijah?
2 Kings 2:11
11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven

what is your excuse for this one? that God killed him and buried him? then can you explain what went to heaven?

i dont know much about the hebrew verse... but i can tell you Melchizedek is another person that never sees death... he has no beginning of days no end of life... i suspect him to be Jesus... or are you going to say God killed him too and bury him?

John 3:13 and see. This is the record of a conversation between Jesus and a prominent Jewish teacher, Nicodemus.
The subject of conversation between Christ and Nicodemus centered in the mysteries of the Holy Spirit and the new birth. Nicodemus professed ignorance concerning the subject of conversion, and Jesus reacted with surprise. Then He said to Nicodemus, "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you heavenly, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

In other words, Nicodemus would have a harder time accepting Christ's words about heavenly things because no man had ever been there to come back and report on it. Jesus alone had come from there to testify about those heavenly things, and Nicodemus would have to accept it purely by faith. The question was: who is qualified to testify of those spiritual, heavenly truths? Jesus said, "We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen, and ye received not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you of heavenly things. And no man hath ascended up to heaven."

Throughout the chapter Christ harked back to the point of His own authority and credentials as a truthful witness of heavenly truth. "He that cometh from above is above all; he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth; he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth: and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure to him." Verses 31-34.

Jesus assured Nicodemus that He was a reliable and true witness of the truth because He came down from heaven with the Father's words. No man could make such a claim, therefore a man could only speak of earthly things. Some have used these verses to support a theory that no one has been, or ever will go, to heaven. This could not be true because of texts to the contrary. The saints will certainly be there for 1,000 years before the Holy City descends to this earth. Here is the evidence:

benalvino:

Yeah right... God killed him same way he killed Elijah abi? i gave up... because you are putting words into the bible... what will be the difference if God kills someone that didn't do anything and if he was killed by wicked people... i don't understand you again... which part of he should not see death do you not understand... if God kills him isn't that death?

is it God that killed moses also? I just dont understand your point...
yet again...
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death(now if God killed him is that not death he saw? what makes you add that it means he will not see death from his enemies? does this even make sense?)
; and he was not found because God took him up(He never died and was never found for God took him... in the case of moses he was dead he saw death and satan and michael fought for his body... it is different. why do you want to know what God did to his body... did you know what happened to noah's ark? i still want to know where God killed him and send him to grave for no reason.); for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up(Why is he taken up when you said he died... isnt he suppose to be at his grave as everything dies with him till resurrection... so which taken up is this verse talking about?) he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

13 All these died in faith(but it says enoch never sees death so from noah down to sarah they all died in faith but it says enoch never see death), without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

You say from Noah down to Sarah they all died in faith....hmmm, more contradiction.

So Abel mentioned in verse 4 was also excluded in verse 13 by Paul? In your effort to cunningly exclude Enoch, you have unknowingly excluded Abel, the very first recorded faithful man on earth. Isn't it obvious you don't know what you are saying? That's another failed attempt. Next time endeavor to start your quote from verse 4 so as to include Abel.

By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Heb 11:5 NKJV.

The bible does not say Enoch was taken to God's presence in heaven. God took Enoch's life so that he would not experience the pangs of death in the hands of his enemies. Apparently, God disposed of his body, "and was not found", as he disposed of Moses' body.- Deut. 34:5, 6.

benalvino:

what about elijah?
2 Kings 2:11
11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven

what is your excuse for this one? that God killed him and buried him? then can you explain what went to heaven?

Go back to my first comment on Elijah and respond accordingly.

benalvino:

i dont know much about the hebrew verse... but i can tell you Melchizedek is another person that never sees death... he has no beginning of days no end of life...i suspect him to be Jesus... or are you going to say God killed him too and bury him?

Then you should now be talking about the third coming of Christ, not the second.

benalvino:

John 3:13 and see. This is the record of a conversation between Jesus and a prominent Jewish teacher, Nicodemus.
The subject of conversation between Christ and Nicodemus centered in the mysteries of the Holy Spirit and the new birth. Nicodemus professed ignorance concerning the subject of conversion, and Jesus reacted with surprise. Then He said to Nicodemus, "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you heavenly, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

In other words, Nicodemus would have a harder time accepting Christ's words about heavenly things because no man had ever been there to come back and report on it. Jesus alone had come from there to testify about those heavenly things, and Nicodemus would have to accept it purely by faith. The question was: who is qualified to testify of those spiritual, heavenly truths? Jesus said, "We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen, and ye received not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you of heavenly things. And no man hath ascended up to heaven."

Throughout the chapter Christ harked back to the point of His own authority and credentials as a truthful witness of heavenly truth. "He that cometh from above is above all; he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth; he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth: and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure to him." Verses 31-34.

Jesus assured Nicodemus that He was a reliable and true witness of the truth because He came down from heaven with the Father's words. No man could make such a claim, therefore a man could only speak of earthly things. Some have used these verses to support a theory that no one has been, or ever will go, to heaven. This could not be true because of texts to the contrary. The saints will certainly be there for 1,000 years before the Holy City descends to this earth. Here is the evidence:

Jesus did not say:

"No one has gone up to heaven and come back except..."

Jesus said:

"No one has gone up to heaven except..."

"No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man". - John 3:13 NABRE(Catholic Bible)

Jesus' statement in John 3:13 was simple and easy to understand. Paul added more weight to it in the book of Hebrews.

There was a reason why those who died before Jesus, such as Abel, Enoch, Moses, Elijah, David, John the Baptist, and other men of faith, did not go to heaven. They died before Jesus inaugurated the way or possibility for humans to be resurrected to heavenly life.

What the Bible says in one place must be viewed in the light of other passages and be in harmony with them. The apostle Paul wrote that Jesus, like a forerunner, "inaugurated . . . a new and living way" into heaven". - Hebrews 6:19, 20;10:19, 20.

"This we have as an anchor of the soul, sure and firm, which reaches into the interior behind the veil, where Jesus has entered on our behalf as forerunner, becoming high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." Hebrews 6:19-20 NABRE(Catholic Bible)

"We have, then, my friends, complete freedom to go into the Most Holy Place by means of the death of Jesus. He opened for us a new way, a living way, through the curtain - that is, through his own body". Hebrews 10:19-20 GNTCE(Good News Catholic Bible)

"Therefore, brothers, since through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh," Hebrews 10:19-20 NABRE(Catholic Bible)

Hebrews 6:19-20; 10:19-20 and 11:13 are in total support of John 3:13. They debunk totally your claim that someone else had ascended to God's presence in spiritual heaven before Jesus.

Like I said before, your "soul-leaves-body" belief is platonic. It lacks scriptural support(s)


1. You said two things literally leave a man at death - SOUL and SPIRIT. What is the difference between the two?

2. Do animals have life breath/spirit? If yes, at death their life breath or life spirit "returns" to who?

3. What is your answer to Solomon's question at Eccl 3:21?

4. In what sense can it be said that the life spirit, or spirit "returns" to God, is it like smokes ascending from ground to physical heaven?

5. Does the life breath or life spirit that "returns" to God at death later become conscious and start living as spirit creatures somewhere?

6. In the realm of the so called "departed souls", are those of dead animals also present?

Freksy:

You say from Noah down to Sarah they all died in faith....hmmm, more contradiction.

So Abel mentioned in verse 4 was also excluded in verse 13 by Paul? In your effort to cunningly exclude Enoch, you have unknowingly excluded Abel, the very first recorded faithful man on earth. Isn't it obvious you don't know what you are saying? That's another failed attempt. Next time endeavor to start your quote from verse 4 so as to include Abel.

By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Heb 11:5 NKJV.

The bible does not say Enoch was taken to God's presence in heaven. God took Enoch's life so that he would not experience the pangs of death in the hands of his enemies. Apparently, God disposed of his body, "and was not found", as he disposed of Moses' body.- Deut. 34:5, 6.



Go back to my first comment on Elijah and respond accordingly.



Then you should now be talking about the third coming of Christ, not the second.



Jesus did not say:

"No one has gone up to heaven and come back except..."

Jesus said:

"No one has gone up to heaven except..."

"No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man". - John 3:13 NABRE(Catholic Bible)

Jesus' statement in John 3:13 was simple and easy to understand. Paul added more weight to it in the book of Hebrews.

There was a reason why those who died before Jesus, such as Abel, Enoch, Moses, Elijah, David, John the Baptist, and other men of faith, did not go to heaven. They died before Jesus inaugurated the way or possibility for humans to be resurrected to heavenly life.

What the Bible says in one place must be viewed in the light of other passages and be in harmony with them. The apostle Paul wrote that Jesus, like a forerunner, "inaugurated . . . a new and living way" into heaven". - Hebrews 6:19, 20;10:19, 20.

"This we have as an anchor of the soul, sure and firm, which reaches into the interior behind the veil, where Jesus has entered on our behalf as forerunner, becoming high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." Hebrews 6:19-20 NABRE(Catholic Bible)

"We have, then, my friends, complete freedom to go into the Most Holy Place by means of the death of Jesus. He opened for us a new way, a living way, through the curtain - that is, through his own body". Hebrews 10:19-20 GNTCE(Good News Catholic Bible)

"Therefore, brothers, since through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh," Hebrews 10:19-20 NABRE(Catholic Bible)

Hebrews 6:19-20; 10:19-20 and 11:13 are in total support of John 3:13. They debunk totally your claim that someone else had ascended to God's presence in spiritual heaven before Jesus.

Like I said before, your "soul-leaves-body" belief is platonic. It lacks scriptural support(s)


1. You said two things literally leave a man at death - SOUL and SPIRIT. What is the difference between the two?

2. Do animals have life breath/spirit? If yes, at death their life breath or life spirit "returns" to who?

3. What is your answer to Solomon's question at Eccl 3:21?

4. In what sense can it be said that the life spirit, or spirit "returns" to God, is it like smokes ascending from ground to physical heaven?

5. Does the life breath or life spirit that "returns" to God at death later become conscious and start living as spirit creatures somewhere?

6. In the realm of the so called "departed souls", are those of dead animals also present?

No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man". - John 3:13

Before I continue when did Jesus God back to heaven?

benalvino:

No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man". - John 3:13

Before I continue when did Jesus God back to heaven?

Before I continue, address the following questions one after the other, they have been crying out since for your attention, and are also very key to the subject under consideration.

1. You said two things literally leave a man at death - SOUL and SPIRIT. What is the difference between the two?

2. Do animals have life breath/spirit? If yes, at death their life breath or life spirit "returns" to who?

3. What is your answer to Solomon's question at Eccl 3:21?

4. In what sense can it be said that the life spirit, or spirit "returns" to God, is it like smokes ascending from ground to physical heaven?

5. Does the life breath or life spirit that "returns" to God at death later become conscious and start living as spirit creatures somewhere?

6. In the realm of the so called "departed souls", are those of dead animals also present?

7. Explain Hebrews 6:19-20 and 10:19-20, and show how they support your opinion(s) on "departed souls".