chinani:

This freedom allows amore genuine besis for a humanistic morality, as it is not something absolute, instituted from above, but a personal choice.

This is a value judgment. While I may agree with it, I don't think that you are more equipped than the Pope or Al haji to decide which peoples are more genuine. As long as one views his life meaningfully, isn't the source of meaning secondary?

Obviously it's a value judgement. Whether I'm more or less equiped that e.g. the pope to make such a judgement is really not relevant. I personally [/b]see far less value in the morality of people that act good [b]out of fear than in that of those that do so out of their own free will. You have to admit that there are a considerable number of theists that are steered by fear of the adverse consequences of sin. I don't know how many times I've heard Nigerians proclaim they are looking for a god[b]fearing [/b]partner to share their life with (and then settle for something not quite like that ).

chinani:

Let me turn the argument around, what is the value of moral behaviour if it is borne out of fear for eternal damnation?

I think the concept of hell has little moral value. I think it's primarily negative and antithetical to God. I don't believe in hell.

Still, hell is a central concept in Christian theology. Few Christians will claim not to believe in hell without separating them from their fellow Christians.

chinani:

Now, why would you assume that atheism would lead to a higher proportion of nihilistic or apathetic thinking than among theists? It might very well be possible that the exact opposite is true (Calvinistic determinism, End Times prophecies, etc)

Well I did not assume. I interpret the views of atheists as nilhistic and sometimes apathetic. (Not all of them.) Your post made me realize that maybe this is a value judgment borne out of my subjectivity. This may be true but even when I try to be neutral that is my interpretation. Again, let me stress, I do not be all or most. . .a better way to think of it is greater than the percentage you'd find in a random sampling of the population and greater than the percentage you'd find in a sampling among believers alone.

I guess that's a classical example of observer bias and the influence of secundary cultural factors (as I pointed out in my reply to Nia). I would like to see some hard data to support that last assumption

Nia:

@Nia,

It might be that your encounters are somewhat coloured by observational bias and perhaps by the specific cultural context of the place you reside in.
[SNIP]

I know. I actually wanted to include that in my post. That my background in a deeply religious society might have been at work when I perceive this people in their natural elements and everyday lives. Hmnn, I suspect that would prolly be the case for a while. I do like that Atheists tend to be more laid back and relaxed about many things, but i'm just not sure the belief that "anything goes" necessarily makes the world a better place (of course neither does the extreme opposite).

Why do you assume that so many atheists think that anything goes? When there's no external, unquestionable basis for morality, there's room for rational situational ethics. There is a sound evolutionary basis for human altruism, even without divine commands.
I personally am a weak utilitarian humanist and I am every bit as moral as your average theist, definitely far more than the average

Nia:

I prefer to take each issue as they come, so to speak, rather than an ultra liberal kind of outlook on everything. I'm not saying theist cannot be extremely liberal, but it tends to be more of a characteristics of atheists.

That all depends on the source of their opinion of specific issues. If there is no rational basis for a specific moral position, I tend to discard it. An example: most theist objections against suicide are religious in nature and not really rational. In this specific case, I would say, as long as one hasn't made any lasting commitments like having children or marrying, one is free to decide what to do with his own life, even if it means terminating it.

Nia:

This, of course, doesn't change the posts I made earlier in this thread. Cause generally speaking, I have no problem getting along with or being married to an atheist.

Happy to hear that

nferyn:

Obviously it's a value judgement. Whether I'm more or less equiped that e.g. the pope to make such a judgement is really not relevant. I personally [/b]see far less value in the morality of people that act good [b]out of fear than in that of those that do so out of their own free will.

My point of calling it a value judgment was not to put the pope of anyone else's value judgment above your own but rather to point out that no one substitute's anyone else's value for their own. So if you have your subjective view, based on your subjective values, how can you reach one, teach one? I don't disagree with you but I think your value judgment rife examples do not convince anyone who does disagree with you.

nferyn:
You have to admit that there are a considerable number of theists that are steered by fear of the adverse consequences of sin. I don't know how many times I've heard Nigerians proclaim they are looking for a god[b]fearing [/b]partner to share their life with (and then settle for something not quite like that ).

Well I always take the "Godfearing" thing with a grain of salt. Most of the Nigerian I know think in more than one language. If you ask, "Don't you mean such & such" They will say "Yes that's what I said". Anyhow, that comment I ignore.

nferyn:
Still, hell is a central concept in Christian theology. Few Christians will claim not to believe in hell without separating them from their fellow Christians.

I'll have to get back to you on this one. I think I have a counter point. . .I think.

chinani:

I think the concept of hell has little moral value. I think it's primarily negative and antithetical to God. I don't believe in hell.

Jehova's Witness, eh?

nferyn:

I don't know how many times I've heard Nigerians proclaim they are looking for a god[b]fearing [/b]partner to share their life with (and then settle for something not quite like that ).

This issue of 'godfearing' is quite controversial. As chinani implied, most people interprete it differently. I personally do not believe 'godfearing' or 'fear of God' means one has to tremble whenever anything 'God' is mentioned (as you have assumed, indirectly). Otherwise, it wouldn't have been stated in the Bible as 'The beginning of wisdom'.

chinani:

My point of calling it a value judgment was not to put the pope of anyone else's value judgment above your own but rather to point out that no one substitute's anyone else's value for their own. So if you have your subjective view, based on your subjective values, how can you reach one, teach one? I don't disagree with you but I think your value judgment rife examples do not convince anyone who does disagree with you.

It wasn't really my intention to convince anyone, only to clarify my position.

chinani:

Well I always take the "Godfearing" thing with a grain of salt. Most of the Nigerian I know think in more than one language. If you ask, "Don't you mean such & such" They will say "Yes that's what I said". Anyhow, that comment I ignore.

Don't feel offended, it wasn't the core of my argument anyway

nferyn:

I know. I actually wanted to include that in my post. That my background in a deeply religious society might have been at work when I perceive this people in their natural elements and everyday lives. Hmnn, I suspect that would prolly be the case for a while. I do like that Atheists tend to be more laid back and relaxed about many things, but i'm just not sure the belief that "anything goes" necessarily makes the world a better place (of course neither does the extreme opposite).
Why do you assume that so many atheists think that anything goes? When there's no external, unquestionable basis for morality, there's room for rational situational ethics. There is a sound evolutionary basis for human altruism, even without divine commands.
I personally am a weak utilitarian humanist and I am every bit as moral as your average theist, definitely far more than the average
That all depends on the source of their opinion of specific issues. If there is no rational basis for a specific moral position, I tend to discard it. An example: most theist objections against suicide are religious in nature and not really rational. In this specific case, I would say, as long as one hasn't made any lasting commitments like having children or marrying, one is free to decide what to do with his own life, even if it means terminating it.

Nferyn, I stated earlier that I am only speaking from my experience. I don't know what percentage of atheist have that outlook on life, but my personal interactions with those have met have often left me with that impression. It's not that they lack the abilty to make logic based decisions about ethics or morality. But lack of belief in a deity does not stop you from being a human being with emotions and decisions made based on what they feel is right (with no reference to logic but on emotions) is what i'm reffering to.
About your take on suicide, I'll have to say that that's a low requirement for something so permanent. At the least, I think it is best that something like suicide is not done as a permanent solution to a temporary problem and all other avenues have been thoroughly exhausted.

Nia:

About your take on suicide, I'll have to say that that's a low requirement for something so permanent. At the least, I think it is best that something like suicide is not done as a permanent solution to a temporary problem and all other avenues have been thoroughly exhausted.

I know, I was only adding this to make a point. Ultimately the decision is up to the individual who needs to decide whether or not his life is worth living. That person will probably take the feelings of others (e.g. parents) into consideration, but, as long as the person did not make any long term commitments to the well-being of others (like having children), the autonomy over his life lies only with him.
What may seem like a weak reason for you or me can be strong enough for that person and we're not in a position to oppose that decision.

[flash=200,200][/flash]
The bible says marry only in the Lord,what that means is that you have to marry only those that share your believe,this will help to eliminate heartache in the home

Anyone who believes not in God cannot live under same roof with me. So the answer is 'NO'.

Chiori:

Anyone who believes in God cannot live under same roof with me. So the answer is 'NO'.

But the question says "who doesn't believe in God".

NO NO AND NO

Why no? Don't you think can influence the person's belief?

i don't think so

I will not marry such a person but thanks thanks though, I am happily married.

I can't do that.

thonia, i 've corrected the mistake. i meant to say 'who doesn't'

it ain't wotit

my dear, there nothing a woman wants more than a man with all these qulities you have listed christan or not what has your belief got to do with it or is god going to live with both of you? as for me i'll say yes,  as long as you are a good husband and father the rest is histry.

There's always an ANCHOR for every great SHIP. So, every relation[b]SHIP[/b] need an ANCHOR because of turbulent times - which will certainly come. If God aint your ANCHOR, then forget it - its not STRONG enough to HOLD you during crises. Meaning you cant have HEAVEN ON EARTH in your marriage. It doesnt matter if you are christian, muslim or traditionalist. At least you believe in the SOVEREIGN BEING.

Why should I even marry an illusional person who believes in god?

mashoo? why are you stressing the SHIP & ANCHOR? are you a saillor?

nope
even some xtian denominations, i cant go near

alexj:

mashoo? why are you stressing the SHIP & ANCHOR? are you a saillor?

LOL

nopeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

well since she thinks i believe in God because i pretend to she hasn't got a choice. When she finds out that i'm an atheist it will be too late

I am an atheist and my wife is a born again (redeem), and we have have three wonderful years of marriage with no problems what so ever. In the beginning here church could not understand why her husband do not follow her to church and she tries to explain my position. One day the head pastor came to my house to talk to me and i explain to him that the way i am made up do not allow me to accept things on faith, we had a long chat and in the end he understood that we cannot all see things the same way, and he has left me alone since. Even the assistant pastor has come to talk to me and we agreed to disagree.

I just had my first child and the pastor is coming to perform the naming.

So i do not see why people with different faiths cannot have a successful marriage if there is love, fidelity and mutual respect.

The question is very clear: Can you marry someone who doesn't beleive in God?

My answer is very clear: No, Never

I honestly do not think that the reason we have high divorce rate is due to differences in beliefs. Marriages of people from the same faith and church fail as much (if not more) than people from different faiths or belief systems.

Impossican't

No I can't. Because I am still striving to attain the point of holiness in my Christian race. Even though it seems impossible, the last thing I need is a setback from any avenue, including marriage. Sorry if my so-called "soul mate" is still galavanting in sin, your loss. The only good I can do for you is witness to you. If you like receive it, if you don't like abhor it, but as for marriage, rara o!

God Forbid!

NO! i wouldn't do that.
what will be the faith of my children?
i dare not think of converting him after i marry him cos it won't work
moreover my faith in God wouldn't allow me do that rather it would allow me bring him to christ and probably help him grow
if someone like that approaches me for marriage, what i owe him is to tell him about the one who loved him and died for him which is
JESUS CHRIST!