bloggernaija: Nice try
GEJ's BOKO HARAM laptop squad
Nairaland division
Always trying to use fault lines to divide and rule.
Your cup is full.
Tell your principal to start packing his load from aso rock.
Your attempt to cause disaffection will not work

dr dams: Hmm, dat reminds me of Prof. Saburi Oladeinde Biobaku of blessed memory..; 1 of d greatest Yoruba Histographers..

sangresan: Mr Nawt....una don try....I was just telling you that most of what you were posting are open to debate...No,you dont use what kings tell you to prove whether you are right or wrong....Kings can be the biggest liars...Professional Historians avoid them...Prof Banji Akintoye and Prof Obaro Ikime said as much...It is unfortunate that I am not now in a position to post tidbits from some of the works of these avatars..I dont want to post anything offhand with relying on the real materials....In a month's time,I may have the opportunity...I will surely remember....Mind you,some of the works of those greats are available in bookshops and online...Journals of the Yoruba Historical Society can only be found in the archives or in the private libraries of old-time elites..The libraries of the Awolowos in Ikenne,Iges in Ibadan,the Akintolas etc

Orlando Owoh:
Yes, the author of the "History of the Egba". This book and K. O. Dike's "Trade And Politics In The Niger Delta" were the first major works, using oral tradition, to have been given much recognition by Eurocentric writers. Jan Vansina and J. F. A. Ade-Ajayi of the Ibadan School of History also helped in developing Africans historiography.

olorisa:

Now what are the sources of the oral traditions?
Kings, Palace historians, Chiefs etc.

The man above you said the Ibadan School giants avoided Kings LOL.

I laugh in Seun's style.

Orlando Owoh:
You asked a question, you should have waited for answer(s) before answering yourself. Oral tradition is in interviews, folklore, rituals, relics, superstitions, etc. Eurocentric scholars down played on these as means of reconstructing the past before the breakthrough of Jan Vansina of the Ibadan School of History.

nawti: @olorisa thanks for the feedback on the Ayikiti mystery, hopefully we will get some other information as it unfold.

I think I might agree to some extent with what @sangresan said about some Kings, my take on it is that some shameful experience would normally not be stated by a King, while its also possible for Kings not to be as informed as some of their subjects. A king would only know what he's been told and history has taught us that most Kings and rulers are most time surrounded by praise singers who would not tell them the truth in situation. The same thing is being played out in the present day political arena where the sitting president / governor would not know about the true state of things based on the people surrounding them.

Apart from all these, some royals are pampered through childhood and wouldn't be bothered to learn about history. Learning takes a committed input from the two parties involved; the teacher on one side and the enthusiastic learner on the other. Another possible reason is the fact that in the Yoruba kingdom, kings are generally picked from groups of families, and except there a school set up for all the children in the royal family, I don't see the probability that all the necessary information about the history of a group of people, would have been taught to all the young royals. These factors could not rule out the possibility that the eventual king would not to know the true events of things when he eventually ascend the throne.

On the issue of Ayikiti , there is possibility that a King at a particular time might have issued an edict to erase every trace of his name from our history. Owing to the fact that he was a tyrant as a king and he wasn't the legitimate King as he was forced on our people by the Oyos. The way forward I feel should be examining the history of King ORARIGBA, because while looking at the list of kings, he ascended the throne at the same period as Ayikiti in the narrative. What we should find out is:

1. Was he forced on the people as stated by the Author?
2. Was he a warrior king?
3. Was he a tyrant

i think by getting these information, we would be able to point out if he was the same as Ayikiti and the name was just a wrong name

Thanks olorisa and sangresan, great job so far.

olorisa:

I wasn't asking a question to seek answers per se - I knew the answer, just referring your post to Sangresan's post.

Eurocentric scholars believe African history began with contact with Europe and as suxh Africans never had history and if there is any history at all it is looked at from European context. Ibadan school towed a direct opposite path.

Thank you.

Orlando Owoh:
I remember how the statement by Trevor-Roper made me angry when I was in Ife School of History.

sangresan: [s]I dont care about your issues and I dont have time....Ibadan School,Ife School etc I dont bloody care about fancy names invented to hoodwink the uninformed......Before any of the Ibadan School Historians were born,Ibn Battuta was already touring Africa recording his observations....Otunba Payne was already recording history and amassing a collection of artifacts...Re-read what I wrote and ask any professor of history to disprove me....You can sit down in your house and write what you like but for you to be acknowledged as a professional historian,you will be advised to avoid putting trust in stories told by kings and power mongers....That is why in Yorubaland,the professional historians arent part of the royal household...IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT TO READ?THE GRIOTS ARE FROM DIFFERENT FAMILIES FROM THE ROYAL HOUSEHOLD TO PROTECT THE HISTORY AND LEGACY OF THE KINGDOM.....A KING THAT WANTS TO USURP POWER WILL BE TOLD THE HISTORY OF THE LAND BY GRIOTS..IS THAT TOO DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?THE SOVIETS WIPED OUT THE NAME OF TROSOLSKY FROM THEIR RECORDS BUT THE WHOLE WORLD KNOW THERE WAS A MAN BY THAT NAME....I CAN CITE ONE THOUSAND CASES IN HISTORY IN WHICH KINGS ATTEMPT TO FALSIFY HISTORY....SOME OF THEM DENIED BEING DEFEATED....KING SARGON OF ASSYRIA IS A PRIME EXAMPLE....THE EGYPTIANS NEVER OFFICIALLY RECORDED THE RED SEA DISASTER OF PHARAOH...I CAN GO ON AND ON AND EVEN COME HOME....WHAT IS THE POINT ANYWAY!....HISTORIANS ARE TRAINED TO SEPARATE FACT FROM FICTION BUT MANY PEOPLE WRITE HISTORY BUT ARENT TRAINED..YOU CANT KILL THEM...IS JUST LIKE A MEDICAL DOCTOR BEING TOLD TO LAUNCH A SATELLITE INTO SPACE..EVEN THE OONI WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU TO GO TO THE GRIOTS...READ PROF OBARO IKIME'S "GROUNDWORK TO NIGERIA HISTORY" TO KNOW HOW HISTORIANS WORK.....THEY WORK IN TANDEM WITH ANTHROPOLOGISTS,SOCIOLOGISTS,ARCHAEOLOGISTS,MILITARY MEN ETC...IF YOU DONT KNOW,THERE HAVE BEEN MANY ORDINARY CITIZENS WHO HAVE TAKEN KINGS TO COURT OVER CIVIL MATTERS THAT INVOLVE HISTORY AND WON HANDS DOWN....CHEERS[/s]

You seem upset, LMAO

At the bolded: When did a chronicler/traveler and a lawyer become historians? N!gga, go sit somewhere and suck on your fat thumb. Nobody said to put trust in any king's or anybody's versions of History (oral tradition is regarded with not much importance due to its subjectivity not necessarily kings/griots)

At the second bolded: Does this make any sense at all?

I am a historian (even though I've lost touch) was once asked to be a research assistant to a Dr in my department(if you know how huge that could be for a fresh graduate) due to my project which I had to turn down because I do not see myself picking up a career in history as a discipline per-se and I saw my new found freedom to be a time to 'flex'

Now you've ranted and lamented, please provide raw facts on Modakeke-Ife war .

It is very obvious you know little to nothing about history writing.
As far as African Pre-Colonial/European History is concerned, it starts with oral tradition and to get some core pointers, interviewing kings is pertinent - regardless of it being subjective or not the business of the historian as I once stated in my post is to tear it down and pick out what is needed - learn!

It is funny you're telling me to go read 'Groundwork of Nigerian History'.
A student of Mathematics throwing a tirade about how history should be approached

Now, if you do not have anything to add to the topic other than type gibberish about what WE (myself and other historians) already know, then I'll suggest you stay in the bleachers while Nawti and I try to solve the 'Ayikiti' puzzle.

The question at hand is: Johnson claimed Ayikiti was a general, a prince, who was forced on the people of Ife. Ile-Ife has royal family houses with records of past Oonis (either short-lived or not, good or bad). Now, it is reasonable to say Ayikiti being a general must have been famous/popular coupled with his royal lineage and his ascendance of the throne be it short and forced. These 3 factors should keep Ayikit's name alive somehow someway but he remains unknown in Ile-Ife. Now, could you bring Obaro Ikime, Kenneth Dike, Saburi Biobaku et al works to solve this puzzle? If you fail to then DO NOT COMMENT FURTHER!

sangresan: I dont care about your issues and I dont have time....Ibadan School,Ife School etc I dont bloody care about fancy names invented to hoodwink the uninformed......Before any of the Ibadan School Historians were born,Ibn Battuta was already touring Africa recording his observations....Otunba Payne was already recording history and amassing a collection of artifacts...Re-read what I wrote and ask any professor of history to disprove me....You can sit down in your house and write what you like but for you to be acknowledged as a professional historian,you will be advised to avoid putting trust in stories told by kings and power mongers....That is why in Yorubaland,the professional historians arent part of the royal household...IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT TO READ?THE GRIOTS ARE FROM DIFFERENT FAMILIES FROM THE ROYAL HOUSEHOLD TO PROTECT THE HISTORY AND LEGACY OF THE KINGDOM.....A KING THAT WANTS TO USURP POWER WILL BE TOLD THE HISTORY OF THE LAND BY GRIOTS..IS THAT TOO DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?THE SOVIETS WIPED OUT THE NAME OF TROSOLSKY FROM THEIR RECORDS BUT THE WHOLE WORLD KNOW THERE WAS A MAN BY THAT NAME....I CAN CITE ONE THOUSAND CASES IN HISTORY IN WHICH KINGS ATTEMPT TO FALSIFY HISTORY....SOME OF THEM DENIED BEING DEFEATED....KING SARGON OF ASSYRIA IS A PRIME EXAMPLE....THE EGYPTIANS NEVER OFFICIALLY RECORDED THE RED SEA DISASTER OF PHARAOH...I CAN GO ON AND ON AND EVEN COME HOME....WHAT IS THE POINT ANYWAY!....HISTORIANS ARE TRAINED TO SEPARATE FACT FROM FICTION BUT MANY PEOPLE WRITE HISTORY BUT ARENT TRAINED..YOU CANT KILL THEM...IS JUST LIKE A MEDICAL DOCTOR BEING TOLD TO LAUNCH A SATELLITE INTO SPACE..EVEN THE OONI WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU TO GO TO THE GRIOTS...READ PROF OBARO IKIME'S "GROUNDWORK TO NIGERIA HISTORY" TO KNOW HOW HISTORIANS WORK.....THEY WORK IN TANDEM WITH ANTHROPOLOGISTS,SOCIOLOGISTS,ARCHAEOLOGISTS,MILITARY MEN ETC...IF YOU DONT KNOW,THERE HAVE BEEN MANY ORDINARY CITIZENS WHO HAVE TAKEN KINGS TO COURT OVER CIVIL MATTERS THAT INVOLVE HISTORY AND WON HANDS DOWN....CHEERS

olorisa:
color=#990000]The question at hand is: Johnson claimed Ayikiti was a general, a prince, who was forced on the people of Ife. Ile-Ife has royal family houses with records of past Oonis (either short-lived or not, good or bad). Now, it is reasonable to say Ayikiti being a general must have been famous/popular coupled with his royal lineage and his ascendance of the throne be it short and forced. These 3 factors should keep Ayikit's name alive somehow someway but he remains unknown in Ile-Ife. Now, could you bring Obaro Ikime, Kenneth Dike, Saburi Biobaku et al works to solve this puzzle? If you fail to then DO NOT COMMENT FURTHER! [/color]

Orlando Owoh:
Yes, Ibn Battuta and other Arabs in the Trans-Saharan trade wrote about the people of Bilad-al-Sudan, they are not regarded as historians but chroniclers.

saxywale:



Even Osinkola (also called Adekola) reigned for three month was entered into the history books as an ooni. He had not even been crowned before he died.

sangresan: I aint the first person to point out that Johnson's account was full of contradictions....Even Johnson's bro who published the work was humble enough to admit the mistakes and pointed out that Johnson himself would have made amends if not for early death....It is now a certain unknown person who is saying that Johnson's bro was foolish to have admitted his errors....Historians say Johnson's account was Oyocentric having being really narratives of Oyo king ...As recent as 2010,Prof Banji Akintoye wrote,"A History of Yoruba People" to correct the lapses....Nawt,thanks for being considerate.....I just wanted to point out that the history of Ife/Modakeke relations by Johnson isnt accepted by all sides....

sangresan: The more you look,the less you see....Chroniclers are also historians....Historians dont call Herodotus the father of Jewish History for nothing.....You havent done what I told you...Ask any Professor of History to disprove me.....The Jewish Herods have their own written records but university scholars rely more on the works of chroniclers like Herodotus and Pliny the Young....Nobody is saying kings dont know history but that what they choose to remember is sometime suspect......Dont derail my discussion with Nawt...It seems you have issues...Maybe inferiority or superiority complex....I aint the first person to point out that Johnson's account was full of contradictions....Even Johnson's bro who published the work was humble enough to admit the mistakes and pointed out that Johnson himself would have made amends if not for early death....It is now a certain unknown person who is saying that Johnson's bro was foolish to have admitted his errors....Historians say Johnson's account was Oyocentric having being really narratives of Oyo king ...As recent as 2010,Prof Banji Akintoye wrote,"A History of Yoruba People" to correct the lapses....Nawt,thanks for being considerate.....I just wanted to point out that the history of Ife/Modakeke relations by Johnson isnt accepted by all sides.....If anybody has personal issues with me,bring them on....If you really have a degree in history,you will know what we are saying...Except you are one of them educated-illiterates....As for the Mathematics aspect,the more you look,........