nnenna.1:


You see how lies are propagated. Who told you Igbos eat dog meat?

The cook in the video goes by the name Tunde, and the video description describes the practice of eating dog meat in Ondo State (SW) and Calabar (SS).

Every bizarre occurrence in Nigeria is automatically tagged an Igbo one. Some serious Igbo haters and baiters here!

But some Igbos eat dog meat, I've seen it myself around the Enugu (Ezeagu) axis some 3/4 yrs back...

This is a very interesting thread and I love the arguments and counter-arguments. There was an earlier Bantu origin thread where a number of Africans from diversified areas of Bantu spread contributed. I am particularly intrigued by the people who insist that Igbos in Nigeria don't have any Bantu identity in their culture or language. Firstly, the Igbo language seems to be proto-Bantu but did not evolve into modern day Bantu. It seem the forerunners of the Bantu civilization did interact with the people living around the Igbo areas in ancient times. I cannot exactly state how much they influenced the ancient Igbo civilization, but they sure impacted Igbo language to some extent. Firstly, I would like us to compare the words in the previous Bantu thread here https://www.nairaland.com/1013080/origin-bantu-peoples-eastern-nigeria/2. The truth is that many Bantu words start with:

Um
Nj
Mb
Ng
Chi/ts

These words are also found in Igbo language. These are not coincidences...

However, I seem to have a theory about the earliest settlers of the modern Igboland. Contrary to the the Hebrew hypothesis, I'd rather nominate the descendants of the ancient Anu/Ainu/Aunu people as the first settlers in Igboland. My theory is based on the geographic spread of the Anu people in the ancient times (pre-3000 BC). This is a subject for discussion another day...

Tony Spike:

But some Igbos eat dog meat, I've seen it myself around the Enugu (Ezeagu) axis some 3/4 yrs back...

Don't believe this...but if it is true, it will not be anymore so than their Yoruba or Efik counterparts.

babe_online:
I see.

I left a post for on the politics section's "beer room" thread. Finna see you e-twerk fi mi today!

Tony Spike: This is a very interesting thread and I love the arguments and counter-arguments. There was an earlier Bantu origin thread where a number of Africans from diversified areas of Bantu spread contributed. I am particularly intrigued by the people who insist that Igbos in Nigeria don't have any Bantu identity in their culture or language. Firstly, the Igbo language seems to be proto-Bantu but did not evolve into modern day Bantu. It seem the forerunners of the Bantu civilization did interact with the people living around the Igbo areas in ancient times. I cannot exactly state how much they influenced the ancient Igbo civilization, but they sure impacted Igbo language to some extent. Firstly, I would like us to compare the words in the previous Bantu thread here https://www.nairaland.com/1013080/origin-bantu-peoples-eastern-nigeria/2. The truth is that many Bantu words start with:

Um
Nj
Mb
Ng
Chi/ts

These words are also found in Igbo language. These are not coincidences...

However, I seem to have a theory about the earliest settlers of the modern Igboland. Contrary to the the Hebrew hypothesis, I'd rather nominate the descendants of the ancient Anu/Ainu/Aunu people as the first settlers in Igboland. My theory is based on the geographic spread of the Anu people in the ancient times (pre-3000 BC). This is a subject for discussion another day...

Um
Nj
Mb
Ng

Are found in just about every Niger-Congo language, Even Senegambian languages like Fulfulde/Pular (Fulani language).

Tony Spike: This is a very interesting thread and I love the arguments and counter-arguments. There was an earlier Bantu origin thread where a number of Africans from diversified areas of Bantu spread contributed. I am particularly intrigued by the people who insist that Igbos in Nigeria don't have any Bantu identity in their culture or language. Firstly, the Igbo language seems to be proto-Bantu but did not evolve into modern day Bantu. It seem the forerunners of the Bantu civilization did interact with the people living around the Igbo areas in ancient times. I cannot exactly state how much they influenced the ancient Igbo civilization, but they sure impacted Igbo language to some extent. Firstly, I would like us to compare the words in the previous Bantu thread here https://www.nairaland.com/1013080/origin-bantu-peoples-eastern-nigeria/2. The truth is that many Bantu words start with:

Um
Nj
Mb
Ng
Chi/ts

These words are also found in Igbo language. These are not coincidences...

However, I seem to have a theory about the earliest settlers of the modern Igboland. Contrary to the the Hebrew hypothesis, I'd rather nominate the descendants of the ancient Anu/Ainu/Aunu people as the first settlers in Igboland. My theory is based on the geographic spread of the Anu people in the ancient times (pre-3000 BC). This is a subject for discussion another day...

Who're these "Anu" people?

However, I think Igbo's are mostly bantu's. You can check the physical similarity between them and central Africans, from Cameroon to Congo and Gabon.

The problem is that most people often use linguistics to groups people, however, that's a tad bit simplistic IMO. There are people out there who aren't classified into the same linguistic groups, but they're genetically similar.

Fulaman198:

Um
Nj
Mb
Ng

Are found in just about every Niger-Congo language, Even Senegambian languages like Fulfulde/Pilar (Fulani language).

Oh well, many words in Yoruba language and Bini language (I think), do not begin with these consonants and they are still classified as Niger-Congo languages also. Many Yoruba words begin with vowels, infact, I could say that many Yoruba words are statistically found to begin with vowels such as A and O. This characteristics of using O and A vowels excessively in Yoruba words (especially in naming of persons) seem only to match with the Nilotic migrant groups such as the Luos and Luhyas in East Africa. Somehow these groups migrated in ancient times to their present location, due to disturbances in their homelands at Napata (Upper Egypt) and later Meroe (Sudan). Fulaman, are there any there any reason(s) for the languages of the people West of Igboland (Yorubas, Binis, Edos, Itsekiris) for which they tend to predominantly make use of O and A vowels in their words? Can you offer any insight to this?

By the way, have you taken a look at the other thread I mentioned earlier to see some of the words I spoke about. For example, Njoku (Core Bantu) - Ndlovu (Zulu) are the words for Elephant. Njoku as a word is also found in Igbo, but with different meaning. How did some of these words get into Igbo language if there were no Bantu interactions?

CAMEROONPRIDE: More khosian blood? Like really? How do u measure that?

@ Black Kenichi

It is really quite refreshing to see a fellow nigerian tackle these issues in a sophisticated manner by including both genetic and linguistic arguments to buttress your position. Your analysis is excellent and on point in my opinion regarding bantu movements east to south and really demonstrates a clear understanding and interpretation of the facts available.

I have been much interested in the Bantu of the southern parts of Africa including similarities with the zulu, xhosa and the indigenous khoi peoples and how they intermingled and absorbed both linguistic and genetic material.

morpheus24:

@ Black Kenichi

It is really quite refreshing to see a fellow nigerian tackle these issues in a sophisticated manner by including both genetic and linguistic arguments to buttress your position. Your analysis is excellent and on point in my opinion regarding bantu movements east to south and really demonstrates a clear understanding and interpretation of the facts available.

I have been much interested in the Bantu of the southern parts of Africa including similarities with the zulu, xhosa and the indigenous khoi peoples and how they intermingled and absorbed both linguistic and genetic material.

hes Jamaican british

[quote author=shymexx]

Err...I don't really think Zambians and Igbo's have much in common in terms of looks based on those I've met. Zambians look more like other Southern Africans IMO. However, Igbo's, Gabonese, some Cameroonians and Congolese do have a lot of similarities.[/img]

Tony Spike:

Oh well, many words in Yoruba language and Bini language (I think), do not begin with these consonants and they are still classified as Niger-Congo languages also. Many Yoruba words begin with vowels, infact, I could say that many Yoruba words are statistically found to begin with vowels such as A and O. This characteristics of using O and A vowels excessively in Yoruba words (especially in naming of persons) seem only to match with the Nilotic migrant groups such as the Luos and Luhyas in East Africa. Somehow these groups migrated in ancient times to their present location, due to disturbances in their homelands at Napata (Upper Egypt) and later Meroe (Sudan). Fulaman, are there any there any reason(s) for the languages of the people West of Igboland (Yorubas, Binis, Edos, Itsekiris) for which they tend to predominantly make use of O and A vowels in their words? Can you offer any insight to this?

By the way, have you taken a look at the other thread I mentioned earlier to see some of the words I spoke about. For example, Njoku (Core Bantu) - Ndlovu (Zulu) are the words for Elephant. Njoku as a word is also found in Igbo, but with different meaning. How did some of these words get into Igbo language if there were no Bantu interactions?

But that is what I'm trying to say Yoruba have the word "Samba" but so does Fulani language. However in Fulani language, Samba/Sambo means 2nd born son.

Njaru - Fulani Gombe dialect means to see or come and see
Mbororo - A subgroup of nomadic Fulani.

I believe that all Niger-Congo languages have a common ancestor despite being broken up into several groups.

I think one would have to conduct a DNA test to truly determine the origins of all south eastern Nigerian groups

morpheus24:

@ Black Kenichi

It is really quite refreshing to see a fellow nigerian tackle these issues in a sophisticated manner by including both genetic and linguistic arguments to buttress your position. Your analysis is excellent and on point in my opinion regarding bantu movements east to south and really demonstrates a clear understanding and interpretation of the facts available.

Thanks. However as Onila said, I'm Jamaican and I live in the UK.

morpheus24: I have been much interested in the Bantu of the southern parts of Africa including similarities with the zulu, xhosa and the indigenous khoi peoples and how they intermingled and absorbed both linguistic and genetic material.

I'm also interested in the Bantu Migration but not just the Southern African Bantus. I feel that the Bantu Migration is way understudied and a lot more complex than it's been interpreted.

@morpheus24 and (anybody else that interested): Here's a scientific paper on the Y-Chromosones (paternal descent) of South Africans.
http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/pdf/2041-2223-1-6.pdf

[img]http://2.bp..com/_Ish7688voT0/TO-pMuAmfNI/AAAAAAAAC6w/U3hRZNYQtnY/s1600/southafrica.png[/img]

For those who understand a bit of french, here is a pretty interesting vid


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=echF-Ayzee8

Sybellah: For those who understand a bit of french, here is a pretty interesting vid


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=echF-Ayzee8

It is a nice video I understand all of it because I do speak French fluently. It is stuff I already know but I wish the West knew this. North Africa was indeed all once black. Present day Fulani are all from North Africa as well as Tuaregs. However, Fulani do live in the Sahel/Southern Sahara, same with Tuaregs. This is a very good documentary, I will watch the rest when I have time.

shymexx:
However, I think Igbo's are mostly bantu's. You can check the physical similarity between them and central Africans, from Cameroon to Congo and Gabon.

While I agree that Igbos and Cameroonians have a lot of physical similarities. Igbo and Congolese really don't look a like.
Also the Gabon (and Eq Guinea) have a visible Igbo population. The Igbo used to have extensive trade with the Gabon.

shymexx: The problem is that most people often use linguistics to groups people, however, that's a tad bit simplistic IMO. There are people out there who aren't classified into the same linguistic groups, but they're genetically similar.

By that logic the Yoruba must be Bantu as well. There is very little genetic difference between the Yoruba and Igbo!

Fulaman198:

It is a nice video I understand all of it because I do speak French fluently. It is stuff I already know but I wish the West knew this. North Africa was indeed all once black. Present day Fulani are all from North Africa as well as Tuaregs. However, Fulani do live in the Sahel/Southern Sahara, same with Tuaregs. This is a very good documentary, I will watch the rest when I have time.

Yeaa i wish the whole vid was translated cause it gives a lot of clarification on ancient egypt and the link with "subsaharan" africa....at a point of time, all Fulani, Wolof Serer along with Ashanti, Yoruba, Fang, Kissi and others have interacted and were once practically the same. Euro archeologist and anthropologist has been leading a psychological war against us to reinforce our inferiority complex vis a vis of them. The average african must know his real worth into the history of this world, that's like the most crucial way to fight against that subconscious self-hate and complex most of us (african and pple of african descent) have. We need more anthropologists and researchers of african descent.

Sybellah:

Yeaa i wish the whole vid was translated cause it gives a lot of clarification on ancient egypt and the link with "subsaharan" africa....at a point of time, all Fulani, Wolof Serer along with Ashanti, Yoruba, Fang, Kissi and others have interacted and were once practically the same. Euro archeologist and anthropologist has been leading a psychological war against us to reinforce our inferiority complex vis a vis of them. The average african must know his real worth into the history of this world, that's like the most crucial way to fight against that subconscious self-hate and complex most of us (african and pple of african descent) have. We need more anthropologists and researchers of african descent.

Well as aforementioned I view all West African languages as having a common ancestor. It would not surprise me that we were once all the same. Also, I do not let Westerners brainwash me with the inferiority/superiority complex. If anything, whenever I speak to a Westerner about Africa, when they talk about North Africa and Ancient Egypt, I put them in their place. The French especially are the most racist when it comes to who ancient Egyptians were.

Did you see the sculpture they made?

@shymexx
Are you sure that yorubas are related to bamilekes?Which Yoruba bears a name like tchankeu,tchameni,tchoutchang,fotso.etc....?
Regarding the bantus expansion,I don't think that bantus ran away from cushites or nilotics as you wrote coz the bantus expansion was a millennium long process.Anyway, in east Africa where there were nilotics and cushites,bantus edged out these ethnicities and dominated the land:Bantus control the most prosperous states in east Africa (Kenya,tanzania,uganda,...).
The bantus expansion is the most extraordinary event in Africa history and there is still a lot of studies to be done to fully understand such a monumental event.

Black Kenichi:
Thanks. However as Onila said, I'm Jamaican and I live in the UK.

Thanks for clarifying. I can now understand the objectiveness in your answers

Black Kenichi:

I'm also interested in the Bantu Migration but not just the Southern African Bantus. I feel that the Bantu Migration is way understudied and a lot more complex than it's been interpreted.

@morpheus24 and (anybody else that interested): Here's a scientific paper on the Y-Chromosones (paternal descent) of South Africans.
http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/pdf/2041-2223-1-6.pdf

[img]http://2.bp..com/_Ish7688voT0/TO-pMuAmfNI/AAAAAAAAC6w/U3hRZNYQtnY/s1600/southafrica.png[/img]

I suspected the paternal Eb1b1a was very little in White south africans, phenotypically they still align very much so with typical northern europeans, though I would like very much to see the distribution for coloreds in the cape and how much khoi and bantu ancestry they have.

Igbo are related with some sawa/anglophone from Cameroon and Bamileke sawa more culturally, dressing etc Bamileke socially(lifestyle, living with others and they both like trading

Black Kenichi:
While I agree that Igbos and Cameroonians have a lot of physical similarities. Igbo and Congolese really don't look a like.
Also the Gabon (and Eq Guinea) have a visible Igbo population. The Igbo used to have extensive with the Gabon.


By that logic the Yoruba must be Bantu as well. There is very little genetic difference between the Yoruba and Igbo!

What is that visible igbo population in gabon and equatorial guinea?? and how can igbo be related to them when the population of equatorial guinea is 80 percent fang Now fang people are also found in gabon, cameroon and a few in congo brazzaville, and sao tome!! fang people are said to have migrated from the north meaning the egypt sudan area and are not bantu( at least originaly).

morpheus24:
I suspected the paternal E1b1a was very little in White south africans, phenotypically they still align very much so with typical northern europeans, though I would like very much to see the distribution for coloreds in the cape and how much khoi and bantu ancestry they have.

Here is a scientific paper: Origin of South African Couloured population
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929710000960
A good science paper but a somewhat shoddy placement of Y-Dna haplogroups and conclusion.





Some of the mistake in the paper:
1. They attribute most of the MT-Dna haplogroups to the Khoisan when in actuality a lot (but not all or even most) of those Khoisan MT-Dna haplogroups come from the Xhosa women.
2. Not many people know this but a lot of Bantus in South Africa were classified as "Coloured"! Even Nelson Mandela was called "Coloured" The term "Coloured" was very arbitrary during apartheid.
3. How can they attribute Y-Dna haplogroup E-M2/E1b1a amongst the Coloured to the Khoisan. While the khoisan do have alot men with that marker, it clearly comes from South African Bantus. Even to this day a lot South African Bantus (or blacks in SA) live in and interact with Coloured communities.

Bazil:

What is that visible igbo population in gabon and equatorial guinea?? and how can igbo be related to them when the population of equatorial guinea is 80 percent fang Now fang people are also found in gabon, cameroon and a few in congo brazzaville, and sao tome!! fang people are said to have migrated from the north meaning the egypt sudan area and are not bantu( at least originaly).

My mistake! There's a few Igbo in Eq Guinea only. They have such an influence that Igbo is an official language in Eq Guinea. Also I never mentioned anything about The Igbo and Fang being related!

Black Kenichi:

Some of the mistake in the paper:
1. They attribute most of the MT-Dna haplogroups to the Khoisan when in actuality a lot (but not all or even most) of those Khoisan MT-Dna haplogroups come from the Xhosa women.
2. Not many people know this but a lot of Bantus in South Africa were classified as "Coloured"! Even Nelson Mandela was called "Coloured" The term "Coloured" was very arbitrary during apartheid.
3. How can they attribute Y-Dna haplogroup E-M2/E1b1a amongst the Coloured to the Khoisan. While the khoisan do have alot men with that marker, it clearly comes from South African Bantus. Even to this day a lot South African Bantus (or blacks in SA) live in and interact with Coloured communities.

I would agree a part of the MT-DNA comes from the Xhosa, however I was watching a documentary where they highlighted the fact that there were direct intermarriages between the early european settler groups in the cape and Khoisan women who were intergrated into some farming communities which could account for the large % of MTdna ancestary. I have also come across large communities in the cape not associated with the large xhosa groups who speak strictly Afrikaans dialects and who physically look like a cross between a khoi and a malay or a european

Ps, it was also widely known that groups of Malays, Khoisan-descendant coloreds and whites lived side by side until the groups areas act split the communities. The xhosa's lived in seperate communties at that time but also intermingled with Khoi.

Mind you these are communities especially in the cape area of south africa.

morpheus24:
I would agree a part of the MT-DNA comes from the Xhosa, however I was watching a documentary where they highlighted the fact that there were direct intermarriages between the early european settler groups in the cape and Khoisan women who were intergrated into some farming communities which could account for the large % of MTdna ancestary. I have also come across large communities in the cape not associated with the large xhosa groups who speak strictly Afrikaans dialects and who physically look like a cross between a khoi and a malay or a european

I'm not denying what you said.
However this exposes a very important question. Where/When did the Cape Coloured get their Y-DNA E-M2/E1b1a from?

morpheus24: Ps, it was also widely known that groups of Malays, Khoisan-descendant coloreds and whites lived side by side until the groups areas act split the communities. The xhosa's lived in seperate communties at that time but also intermingled with Khoi.

At the bolded - Not just the khoi but with other Coloureds as well.

Black Kenichi:
I'm not denying what you said.
However this exposes a very important question. Where/When did the Cape Coloured get their Y-DNA E-M2/E1b1a from?


At the bolded - Not just the khoi but with other Coloureds as well.

The coloreds north of the cape would most likely have inherited their E1b1a from male Bantu groups while the ones from the cape most likely the original Bantu slaves brought from neighbouring Mozambic is what I am thinking but can't rule out Xhosa male ancestry either.

morpheus24:

The coloreds north of the cape would most likely have inherited their E1b1a from male Bantu groups while the ones from the cape most likely the original Bantu slaves brought from neighbouring Mozambic is what I am thinking but can't rule out Xhosa male ancestry either.

Not a bad explanation! The Euros did bring in some slave from Mozambique. However I don't know the amount.

shymexx:

Prick, shut the fvck up, fvck off and stop quoting me. What evidence is he presenting? I didn't know copying and pasting junk was synonymous with explanation. If you don't understand what I meant by "looks" in terms ethnic ancestry - sod off, git. Freaking emotional clowns!

Simply pointing out "coon-ology" at work here. Visual resemblance doesn't connotate genetic similarities.

An igbo cannot be bantu because he has similar features as a congolese. Scientific fallacy.

case in point: Is this boy an African?