Losing a loved one can easily make one an eschatologist, even if its for a couple of days. In this state, you question a lot of things you already know about the subject of death and so in that state, I once deliberated on one question: Is there an optimal age for the afterlife (if there is such thing as an afterlife)? If there isn’t, then that ‘last’ day/paradise/or what-you-may-call-it is going to be a very confusing place. Say I lost my baby sister while I was a kid and she went to heaven, while my father died at the age of forty, and then I die at a ripe old age. Mos def, my father will not recognize me as the son he left behind, my baby sister will not too (or will they?). So, if the general consolation now is that I will be re-united with my loved ones on the ‘day of resurrection’ (what if they went to hell?), then some serious confusion awaits many of those who believe (For now, I don’t). Or is there something I’m missing here, like an optimum age for the afterlife?

There is no optimum age to die.

People who die young will 'grow up' to their 'best age' in the afterlife.
Older people will also assume the same 'best age'
Your passed-on relatives will 'know' you.
As for heaven and hell, I personally believe they are religious balderdash.

It is reported that the most common and ideal 'age' look in the afterlife is around 30 yrs, which is considered the prime of one's earth life. But souls also have the capacity to appear to others in the age that they were when they died in order to allow the other recognise them, if necessary. Souls can basically alter their appearance to suit the memory of whoever is observing them.

@lovetinz and rossikk
And you guys know this? How?

Infomizer: @lovetinz and rossikk
And you guys know this? How?

Various sources such as the accounts of Near Death experiencers and hypnotic past life regression patients etc etc.

Infomizer: @lovetinz and rossikk
And you guys know this? How?

Reading.

Lovetinz:
Reading.

I'm sure you'll pardon my skepticism here. But will you mind sharing some of your sources?

Rossikk:

Various sources such as the accounts of Near Death experiencers and hypnotic past life regression patients etc etc.

The former, I'm really skeptical about. But the latter even makes me more intrigued. You won't blame my stance as I have stopped believing in the existence of a soul.
I'm glad there are different angles though, however, I don't find them convincing (totally my fault). I'm of the opinion that we die and that's it! Nothing more, since there is no proven fact that we continue to exist or is there (I don't mean abstract analogies)?

Infomizer:
I'm sure you'll pardon my skepticism here. But will you mind sharing some of your sources?

Life in the World Unseen by Anthony Borgia
Edgar-Cayce, The Lost Teachings of Atlantis by Jon Peniel

Lovetinz:

Life in the World Unseen by Anthony Borgia
Edgar-Cayce

I find this title somewhat oxymoronic. If the world is 'unseen', how come the authors are able to describe life there? I'm quite familiar with Edgar and I completely understand your view point.

The Lost Teachings of Atlantis by Jon Peniel

Atlantis? To the best of my knowledge, it's a fictitious place (except you prove me wrong) and I doubt if such teachings ever existed.
By asking for references, I thought you would provide me with peer-reviewed papers but here we are. I have the impression that you are a Lobsang T. Rampa person. Heard of him?

not sure if souls have human appearance but wat I know is that everyones soul existed before they came to life, souls/spirits have known each other from the spirit world already. Re-incarnations happen and so a persons spirit might come back to life not long after he dies. Life is re-occurring, and more souls are sent here on earth almost every second. So if u die and expect to see one of ur loved relatives u might be disappointed to find out that he's back on earth as another life. There's no optimum age for the afterlife, every soul appears exactly how it was created from the beginning, no aging in appearance.

Infomizer:
I find this title somewhat oxymoronic. If the world is 'unseen', how come the authors are able to describe life there? I'm quite familiar with Edgar and I completely understand your view point.

Atlantis? To the best of my knowledge, it's a fictitious place (except you prove me wrong) and I doubt if such teachings ever existed.
By asking for references, I thought you would provide me with peer-reviewed papers but here we are. I have the impression that you are a Lobsang T. Rampa person. Heard of him?

I had to check what that word means?

1. The same way you describe atoms as spinning without ever haven seen one before.
You read Edgar Cayce and you want peer reviewed materials on the Afterlife. Are you joking?

2. Atlantis is a fictitious place? Maybe.
Peer reviewed? We are discussing the Paranormal here, not Physiology.
Rampa? I read his books over 30 (Thirty) years ago.

You ever heard of Cunningham, Israel Regardie, Arthur Waite, Donald Tyson, Dion Fortune, Austin Osman Spare
You ever heard of the word Qabalah?

Peer reviewed Metaphysical papers

Immediately they die, that death age will remain constant just like vampire

mumumugu: Immediately they die, that death age will remain constant just like vampire

pls this is not a movie set

Infomizer:
I'm sure you'll pardon my skepticism here. But will you mind sharing some of your sources?


The former, I'm really skeptical about. But the latter even makes me more intrigued. You won't blame my stance as I have stopped believing in the existence of a soul.
I'm glad there are different angles though, however, I don't find them convincing (totally my fault). I'm of the opinion that we die and that's it! Nothing more, since there is no proven fact that we continue to exist or is there (I don't mean abstract analogies)?

Do you realise that millions of people have had out-of-body experiences?

What is an out-of-body experience if not proof that Consciousness is not dependent on a physical body for its existence?

On a common sense level, what is it that makes you think that your consciousness now is due to some combination of physical materials in your body? How can mere physical human tissue give you the ability to think, memorize, project the future, create, plan etc etc? There is no more reason for human tissue to think and plan than there is a piece of cardboard.

Of course there has to be an immaterial force that merely uses your physical body as a 'container' for itself in this dimension. Once that container expires either by age or accident, why on earth would it affect your immaterial force? It won't. All that will happen is the force will move on to another realm since it can no longer participate meaningfully in this one, lacking a physical body visible to those here. The body is just a container for Consciousness. You are NOT your body any more than you are the clothes you're wearing right now.

I nearly choked with laughter! So you wanna send me to the afterlife? Lol

Lovetinz:

I had to check what that word means?

1. The same way you describe atoms as spinning without ever haven seen one before.
You read Edgar Cayce and you want peer reviewed materials on the Afterlife. Are you joking?

Bro, juxtaposing atoms (proven to exist via innumerable experiments) with papanormal ish is gangsta! Yea, I'm familiar with Edgar Cayce and so am I with Wole soyinka, Frank Peretti, Mark Twain, Chinua Achebe and other imaginative writers. I read them for entertainment and nothing else. I mentioned peer-reviewed papers because i see 'em as credible enough to alter my thought pattern. Apparently, paranormal ain't my thingy! :p

2. Atlantis is a fictitious place? Maybe.

Ambivalence would do...

Peer reviewed? We are discussing the Paranormal here, not Physiology.
Rampa? I read his books over 30 (Thirty) years ago.

You ever heard of Cunningham, Israel Regardie, Arthur Waite, Donald Tyson, Dion Fortune, Austin Osman Spare
You ever heard of the word Qabalah?

Peer reviewed Metaphysical papers

Agreed! I made a bad call for peer-reviewed metaphysical papers. Entirely my fault! I was looking for a needle in a hay sack.
Never heard of any of the authors you mentioned and you probably know why by now. I'd love to take a peek when I have the time though. I came across the qabbala word for the first time about 2 weeks ago and it struck me as a lollapalooza so I checked it out and that was it.
So going back to the thread, your guys have not been able to convince me since I consider them as imaginative writers (not scholars) given the erroneous (in my books) titles.

macof: not sure if souls have human appearance but wat I know[/]b is that everyones soul existed before they came to life, souls/spirits have known each other from the spirit world already.

Yes, you can't be sure! As far as souls are concerned, no one should be!

Re-incarnations happen and so a persons spirit [b]might come back to life not long[b] after he dies.
How long exactly? 5 minutes? 25? Yes it might but i don't think it will!
[quote]Life is re-occurring, and more souls are sent here on earth almost every second. So if u die and expect to see one of ur loved relatives u might be disappointed to find out that he's back on earth as another life. There's no optimum age for the afterlife, every soul appears exactly how it was created from the beginning, no aging in appearance.

Apparently, you don't subscribe to the christian concept of resurrection on the last day where everybody will meet with their loved ones. I don't too, and as much as i would love to, i'm not seeing any relative (you just broke some bereaved hearts). I get your point about the ageing thingy tho. 'Ageing' is an earthly thing and just as the flesh decomposes, it becomes meaningless. As per afterlife, your answer is that there is none and your analogy makes sense given your belief system. I don't do souls sha!

mumumugu: Immediately they die, that death age will remain constant just like vampire

And this will cause confusion on the last day because you won't recognize some of your peeps!

Rossikk:

Do you realise that millions of people have had out-of-body experiences?

What is an out-of-body experience if not proof that Consciousness is not dependent on a physical body for its existence?

Have you? I haven't. Do you know that millions of people have not?

On a common sense level, what is it that makes you think that your consciousness now is due to some combination of physical materials in your body?

Isn't it?

How can mere physical human tissue give you the ability to think, memorize, project the future, create, plan etc etc?

How can animals do the same? Fishes have a memory span of 5 months, ants 'plan' ahead for rainy days (in the process, project the future), etc. Does this mean that they are conscious and thus have souls?

There is no more reason for human tissue to think and plan than there is a piece of cardboard.

Of course there has to be an immaterial force that merely uses your physical body as a 'container' for itself in this dimension. Once that container expires either by age or accident, why on earth would it affect your immaterial force? It won't. All that will happen is the force will move on to another realm since it can no longer participate meaningfully in this one, lacking a physical body visible to those here. The body is just a container for Consciousness. You are NOT your body any more than you are the clothes you're wearing right now.

I don't buy this either. There is no need for an immaterial force if the same cannot be applied to animals who share the same characteristics you pointed out.

Infomizer:

Have you? I haven't. Do you know that millions of people have not?


Isn't it?

How can animals do the same? Fishes have a memory span of 5 months, ants 'plan' ahead for rainy days (in the process, project the future), etc. Does this mean that they are conscious and thus have souls?


I don't buy this either. There is no need for an immaterial force if the same cannot be applied to animals who share the same characteristics you pointed out.

What makes you think animals don't have consciousness? Animals are intelligent beings. Intelligence does not derive from physical tissue. If it does, then tell us what special qualities are contained in mere tissue that can create consciousness. And if millions of people have not had o.b.e. it is immaterial insofar as it is known that millions have had the experience, which proves that consciousness can exist independently of a material, physical body.

Rossikk: What makes you think animals don't have consciousness? Animals are intelligent beings.

I never stated that animals don't have consciousness. In fact, the reason i provided those examples was to show clearly that animals are as intelligent as humans (far more in some cases and far less in others but they possess a tad of intelligence). My question to you will now be: does the fact that they have consciousness mean that they have souls?

Intelligence does not derive from physical tissue. If it does, then tell us what special qualities are contained in mere tissue that can create consciousness.

I can't tell you since i am not an evolutionary biologist.But i bet you, there is a valid answer to your question. That you don't know it does not mean you should term it spiritual.

And if millions of people have not had o.b.e. it is immaterial insofar as it is known that millions have had the experience, which proves that consciousness can exist independently of a material, physical body.

It is immaterial too if millions have had, insofar as it is known that millions have not had the experience. My point is that if such were the case, then OBEs should not be experienced by a select 'millions', since we are all humans. In fact, animals and plants too should have 'em, but that is not the case bro (or is it?). Every human has experienced fatigue and hunger, now that's how to prove that something as basic as OBEs exist.

Infomizer:
I never stated that animals don't have consciousness. In fact, the reason i provided those examples was to show clearly that animals are as intelligent as humans (far more in some cases and far less in others but they possess a tad of intelligence). My question to you will now be: does the fact that they have consciousness mean that they have souls?

Of course the existence of consciousness means the existence of a soul. Consciousness Is SOUL.

I can't tell you since i am not an evolutionary biologist.But i bet you, there is a valid answer to your question. That you don't know it does not mean you should term it spiritual.

There is no valid explanation of how mere tissue can create consciousness. Matter cannot create consciousness. Sheer common sense really. Unless you believe in magic.

It is immaterial too if millions have had, insofar as it is known that millions have not had the experience. My point is that if such were the case, then OBEs should not be experienced by a select 'millions', since we are all humans. In fact, animals and plants too should have 'em, but that is not the case bro (or is it?). Every human has experienced fatigue and hunger, now that's how to prove that something as basic as OBEs exist.

You cannot say that consciousness does not exist outside the body just because not everyone has experienced it. That's patently ridiculous.

In heaven, no family, you are alone

Infomizer: Losing a loved one can easily make one an eschatologist, even if its for a couple of days. In this state, you question a lot of things you already know about the subject of death and so in that state, I once deliberated on one question: Is there an optimal age for the afterlife (if there is such thing as an afterlife)? If there isn’t, then that ‘last’ day/paradise/or what-you-may-call-it is going to be a very confusing place. Say I lost my baby sister while I was a kid and she went to heaven, while my father died at the age of forty, and then I die at a ripe old age. Mos def, my father will not recognize me as the son he left behind, my baby sister will not too (or will they?). So, if the general consolation now is that I will be re-united with my loved ones on the ‘day of resurrection’ (what if they went to hell?), then some serious confusion awaits many of those who believe (For now, I don’t). Or is there something I’m missing here, like an optimum age for the afterlife?

Life is eternal. When people die,they mostly come back instantly.the earth is a learning field for soul to make mistakes and learn to love one another regardless of the situation. Most of your dead relatives are probably back in another form... Most of the time they are in your Soul Group and will most likely come back as your kids,pets,close friends and helpers.

When you die you get to see the ones who are yet to take the physical form until you yourself are ready to come back. The heaven story of the bible is nothing but a mixed up ideas invented by some random people. The Afterlife is not that complex. The bottom line is" you are your ancestors.....don't our African traditions teach us that? Unless you do not believe them and believe the Jews instead.

engrtee: In heaven, no family, you are alone

That's a lie. Many of us have many friends in heaven whom we shall re-acquaint with on our return there.

Rossikk: Of course the existence of consciousness means the existence of a soul. Consciousness Is SOUL.

Animals have a soul? Centipedes, may flies, spirogyra, fleas, bats and the millions of species of animals on this earth have souls because they have consciousness? I find that preposterous bro. C'mon!

There is no valid explanation of how mere tissue can create consciousness.

You mean you've searched ALL available literatures and laboratories?

Matter cannot create consciousness. Sheer common sense really. Unless you believe in magic.

I don't believe in magic and i would love to know what makes you so certain that matter/tissue (which the brain is made of) cannot create consciousness (that the brain is responsible for). I sense that you mean that something cannot be created out of nothing, right?

You cannot say that consciousness does not exist outside the body just because not everyone has experienced it. That's patently ridiculous.

I feel the same way bro. You cannot say that it does exist because some (a microscopic few at that) people have experienced it. I meant what I said about hunger and fatigue. The day that everybody starts to have OBEs is the day i'll start believing in it.

engrtee: In heaven, no family, you are alone

Been there?

ifeness:

Life is eternal. When people die,they mostly come back instantly.the earth is a learning field for soul to make mistakes and learn to love one another regardless of the situation. Most of your dead relatives are probably back in another form... Most of the time they are in your Soul Group and will most likely come back as your kids,pets,close friends and helpers.

When you die you get to see the ones who are yet to take the physical form until you yourself are ready to come back. The heaven story of the bible is nothing but a mixed up ideas invented by some random people. The Afterlife is not that complex. The bottom line is" you are your ancestors.....don't our African traditions teach us that? Unless you do not believe them and believe the Jews instead.

You appear so certain and I really need to understand what makes you so sure because I can't seem to point out the difference between your ideology and that of the Jews in terms of credibility and certainty. I'm sure you'll pardon my unbelief.

Infomizer:
Animals have a soul? Centipedes, may flies, spirogyra, fleas, bats and the millions of species of animals on this earth have souls because they have consciousness? I find that preposterous bro. C'mon!

Why is it ''preposterous''? It is you who is preposterous because you think such living things are ''too small'' to have souls. But man is not that much ''bigger'' in size than the smallest insect if you look at the bigger picture of the wider universe. If size is your barometer I guess Mr Elephant can dismiss the idea of man having a soul since man is so tiny compared to him.

I don't believe in magic and i would love to know what makes you so certain that matter/tissue (which the brain is made of) cannot create consciousness (that the brain is responsible for). I sense that you mean that something cannot be created out of nothing, right?

You cannot create consciousness out of mere matter or else scientists (and even laymen) could easily create a full grown, conscious man merely by assembling some human tissue or some other material. Even to get a robot or computer to function you need to input a set of programmes (intellectual energy) or they would be useless.

I feel the same way bro. You cannot say that it does exist because some (a microscopic few at that) people have experienced it.

YES YOU CAN. Just as you can say that wealth, good health, food abundance, etc are in existence even though just a few have experienced it!!!

I meant what I said about hunger and fatigue. The day that everybody starts to have OBEs is the day i'll start believing in it.

Ridiculous. That's like saying you won't believe in the existence of billionaires until everyone is like Dangote.

Rossikk:

Why is it ''preposterous''? It is you who is preposterous because you think such living things are ''too small'' to have souls. But man is not that much ''bigger'' in size than the smallest insect if you look at the bigger picture of the wider universe. If size is your barometer I guess Mr Elephant can dismiss the idea of man having a soul since man is so tiny compared to him.

No offense bro. My problem is not the size, but wrapping my mind around the fact that you imply that they are immortal with so much conviction. They have OBEs too?

You cannot create consciousness out of mere matter or else scientists (and even laymen) could easily create a full grown, conscious man merely by assembling some human tissue or some other material. Even to get a robot or computer to function you need to input a set of programmes (intellectual energy) or they would be useless.

I completely understand your view man and yes, it has not been possible for life to be created the way we know it but if you look at attempts like that of Craig Venter, you will know that it is only a matter of time before man finally understands his origins (whether it required a creator or not). So back to your position, there is still much that we don't know about the world so we should not be too certain about such assertions. [/quote]

YES YOU CAN. Just as you can say that wealth, good health, food abundance, etc are in existence even though just a few have experienced it!!!



Ridiculous. That's like saying you won't believe in the existence of billionaires until everyone is like Dangote.

You can't compare sleep (a diurnal necessity) with wealth, food 'abundance', 'good' health. I used the word 'basic' initially. If OBEs were as real and a must in man's nature,I think they should be part of the fundamental characteristics of living things (Remember MR NIGER D?). That's what I meant.