Gombs:

Must you turn every thread into a tithe discussion thread? :-/


Even when Jesus clearly outlined what the/his Blood was for? Must you argue any and everything esp when you don't have to?

By now, you should know I'm not interested in any tithe discussion. Have you seen me participate in any of the myriads of tithe threads this year? Even ONE thread, No. I only made reference to tithe to point out your intellectual inconsistency. At least some of the people arguing against pleading the blood appear to do so because they do not seem to find support for it among the practice of apostles, which is also the same reason they reject the tithe. In your own case, you want to approbate and reprobate at the same thing: use the apostolic practice when it suits and reject it when it does not. So, if you can explain the discrepancy, I'm all ears.

Gombs:

You obviously wanna argue.



That's why you should go study. Let me give you a hint, Solomon was a black man...if you need scripture, I'd oblige you.



Pls try and do more study of the Bible by the help of the Holyspirit

So, I want to argue because I pointed out an erroneous statement you made? Did Elijah call down fire at any point to kill his enemies or not?

Candour:

My bro, if I may ask. What did the blood accomplish?

The blood accomplished everything in our redemption package: salvation, healing, deliverance, prosperity, protection, etc. Eph. 1:7.

Bidam: "Father, i confess our ( i.e self,immediate family,household,etc) sins, so clean with the blood" ( to cover the multitude of sins,1 pet.4:7-8,keep the commandment without spot,1 tim,6:14: and edify ourselves in love,Eph.4:15;1Jn.5:16).

Is this what you call 'pleading the blood?'

Why don't you simply say "father forgive my trespasses/sin which I've committed knowingly or unknowingly, direct or indirect, through thoughts and through deeds, I obtain/receive mercy for my sins, in Jesus' name." Amen

Now at the bold above, God forgives that sin for Christ's sake (for that blood he shed, that blood on the mercy seat). It's not like there is a literal/practical cleaning or washing of the heart (to wipe away d sin) by God or Jesus.

Gombs:

Jesus said the above...but y didn't you complete it?

Oya let me help you, Jesus said "do this IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME" not do this for your protection or do this to plead your case or do this to heal your self.

When you take communion is it Jesus' real blood?

It is the remembrance of what he did on the cross for us that reaffirms the power we have in His redemptive work. The remembrance is for all he's done, his perfect sacrifice and victory. That's what the communion is about. Yeah, you get healed during communion, because of the remembrance and not that the communion was a kinda medicine


Must you argue?

Thank you for making my point more eloquently. So, the communion, which invokes the blood of Jesus, gives healing? What happened to the point that the blood is only for the remission of sins? And if you can use the blood to get healing, through communion, what are you guys wasting time arguing?

shdemidemi: @ Gombs and candour

thanks for opening our eyes to these errors that have made their ways in to the church through human improvisation.

on a lighter note, if God answers such prayers the world would be far emptier than it is right now.

We can say that about any prayer. If God answers the prayers for salvation of sinneers, nobody would be unsaved today because the saints have been praying for centuries for people to be saved. See how your illogic is revealed?

Oluwatola5: Although i am yet to fully learn the ropes of being a totally submissive christian, i just feel i should chip in something here. @op i read your post and i think i should drop a thing or two. Those churches that do pray using the Holy Spirit dont mention the names of their enemies,am very sure of that. So many people only judge from afar, not until you come close to it, you wouldnt understand what it really is. They pray against the negative spirits in them. The bible says ''for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against prinicipalities, powers, rulers of darkness in high places'' meaning that even the bible recognises the fact that there are enemies of men in this world. Jesus rebuked evil spirits also while He was alive, but am pretty sure He didnt do that using the fire of the Holy Spirit then coz the ministry of the Holy Spirit was yet to be launched by then. But since Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us to help us in this race of christianity, i believe that we cant do anything without the help of the Holy Spirit. If we pray to the Holy Spirit to fight our cause, i dont see what is so bad in it. Although, am not good at arguments, this is just my stance. All stay blessed, and may we not be found wanting on the last day.


#Peace.

do we really have the powers to fight against these 'enemies of men in this world' or 'negative spirits' as christians?

Candour:

Hear Christ himself

Luke 22:19-20
'And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.20.Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you'

He said to take communion in remembrance of him and said it was for remission of sins, nothing about mouthing it to kill demons. This is repeated in Matt 26:26-28 and Mark 14:22-24

Hear Paul

1Cor 11:23-26
'For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:24.And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.25.After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as off as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.26.For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come

See all the bolded. Communion is strictly for remembrance of what Christ went through to obtain salvation for us. Nothing more, nothing less.

Christ said so, Paul repeated it.

Ha ha, I hope you can already see dissension in your camp. Communion affords healing, as our brother correctly stated, contrary to your assertion that is all about remembrance. Why does the Bible want us to engage in a practice, simply for rememrance sake? Are our prayers, reading the Bible, calling ourselves christians not all in remembrance of the death of Christ? WOuld we engage in any of that if Jesus had not died?

nlMediator, I will not argue with you


Folks that view this page can deduce the truth for themselves by the holyspirit.


Cheers

nlMediator:

We can say that about any prayer. If God answers the prayers for salvation of sinneers, nobody would be unsaved today because the saints have been praying for centuries for people to be saved. See how your illogic is revealed?

That is where the will of God and His purpose comes in. You can pray and fast from now till tomorrow, nothing will happen if it is not in God's predestined plan.

As for prayers for salvation, I believe in God's election. We cannot pray to be saved or pray anyone in to salvation but God calls us to the knowledge of His salvation according to His foreknowledge.

nlMediator:

Ha ha, I hope you can already see dissension in your camp. Communion affords healing, as our brother correctly stated, contrary to your assertion that is all about remembrance. Why does the Bible want us to engage in a practice, simply for rememrance sake? Are our prayers, reading the Bible, calling ourselves christians not all in remembrance of the death of Christ? WOuld we engage in any of that if Jesus had not died?

I actually think sharing God's word is the bread and the blood of Christ, I might be wrong.

nlMediator:

Ha ha, I hope you can already see dissension in your camp. Communion affords healing, as our brother correctly stated, contrary to your assertion that is all about remembrance. Why does the Bible want us to engage in a practice, simply for rememrance sake? Are our prayers, reading the Bible, calling ourselves christians not all in remembrance of the death of Christ? WOuld we engage in any of that if Jesus had not died?

My bro, you should know me by now from our engagements in time past. I don't do camps. I deal with issues, not persons. You and I agreed on something on the 'a fresh purchase' thread, does that mean you and I are forming an alliance? If I agree with you, I'll say it irrespective of whatever disagreement we've had in time past.

Check my posts, I HAVE NEVER subscribed to healing in the communion. Its part of the extra biblical revelations of the Pentecostal movement that has no biblical basis. I'm all for what is revealed in the new testament based on the cross if calvary and u can't find communion being used as a healing balm. Check the references I gave, you won't find such there. If any body tells you that or if you believe that, you'll have to prove it from scripture.

If my Lord say do it for remembrance sake, will you tell him he doesn't know what he's doing? If you can, I cannot. I take communion in line with what my Lord and apostle Paul said. Simply for remembrance.

Gombs:


Is this what you call 'pleading the blood?'

Why don't you simply say "father forgive my trespasses/sin which I've committed knowingly or unknowingly, direct or indirect, through thoughts and through deeds, I obtain/receive mercy for my sins, in Jesus' name." Amen

Now at the bold above, God forgives that sin for Christ's sake (for that blood he shed, that blood on the mercy seat). It's not like there is a literal/practical cleaning or washing of the heart (to wipe away d sin) by God or Jesus.

And what is exactly wrong with the prayer point you asked me to outline? I even went as far as given you valid scriptures on it. Have you now taken the place of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers? Be careful bro... A pharisical spirit is at work if u claim pleading the blood is wrong while yours is right. I already showed you an article where to plead is not begging.Take time and enjoy the article.

nlMediator:

The blood accomplished everything in our redemption package: salvation, healing, deliverance, prosperity, protection, etc. Eph. 1:7.

Don't add to the word pls.

Eph 1:7
'In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace:'

The blood redeemed you from the slave market of sin because that is the only thing we couldn't get by our efforts. Every other thing is gettable by human effort. Man has being equipped for that. You don't need to be a Christian to have the goodies of life.

Any body, whether good or bad, atheist or Muslim, sane or insane can get money, health etc. Even witch doctors claim to perform deliverance from powers of darkness for people but SALVATION CANNOT be obtained outside the blood of Christ.

My bro, that is what the blood is for. Remission of sins.

Bidam: And what is exactly wrong with the prayer point you asked me to outline? I even went as far as given you valid scriptures on it. Have you now taken the place of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers? Be careful bro... A pharisical spirit is at work if u claim pleading the blood is wrong while yours is right. I already showed you an article where to plead is not begging.Take time and enjoy the article.

Enough said...I rest my case

@the bold, you are also claiming yours is right, and mine wrong...what kinda spirit is that?


You didn't show any scripture highlighting 'pleading the blood'.

Anyways, I rest my case.

#Bless

Candour:

Don't add to the word pls.

Eph 1:7
'In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace:'

The blood redeemed you from the slave market of sin because that is the only thing we couldn't get by our efforts. Every other thing is gettable by human effort. Man has being equipped for that. You don't need to be a Christian to have the goodies of life.

Any body, whether good or bad, atheist or Muslim, sane or insane can get money, health etc. Even witch doctors claim to perform deliverance from powers of darkness for people but SALVATION CANNOT be obtained outside the blood of Christ.

My bro, that is what the blood is for. Remission of sins.

As simple as ABC. why is this difficult to get in?

shdemidemi:

do we really have the powers to fight against these 'enemies of men in this world' or 'negative spirits' as christians?

No, that is why we need the Holy Spirit. There is this song that says ''I have no power of my own:......Holy Spirit, i look up to you, help me, I have no power of my own''.

Oluwatola5: No, that is why we need the Holy Spirit. There is this song that says ''I have no power of my own:......Holy Spirit, i look up to you, help me, I have no power of my own''.

Hi Oluwatola5, pardon my asking pls. My eyes just caught your signature. Are u a mayoress of the alpha club, OAU Ife?

Oluwatola5: No, that is why we need the Holy Spirit. There is this song that says ''I have no power of my own:......Holy Spirit, i look up to you, help me, I have no power of my own''.

let me ask u, does holyghost fire 'consume' evil spirits? When they say holyghost fire, what kind of fire are they talking about? Physical(literal) or spiritual fire?

Gombs:



Enough said...I rest my case

@the bold, you are also claiming yours is right, and mine wrong...what kinda spirit is that?


You didn't show any scripture highlighting 'pleading the blood'.

Anyways, I rest my case.

#Bless

You started by judging it to be wrong. i also rest my case. Think about it.

Candour:

My bro, you should know me by now from our engagements in time past. I don't do camps. I deal with issues, not persons. You and I agreed on something on the 'a fresh purchase' thread, does that mean you and I are forming an alliance? If I agree with you, I'll say it irrespective of whatever disagreement we've had in time past.

Check my posts, I HAVE NEVER subscribed to healing in the communion. Its part of the extra biblical revelations of the Pentecostal movement that has no biblical basis. I'm all for what is revealed in the new testament based on the cross if calvary and u can't find communion being used as a healing balm. Check the references I gave, you won't find such there. If any body tells you that or if you believe that, you'll have to prove it from scripture.

If my Lord say do it for remembrance sake, will you tell him he doesn't know what he's doing? If you can, I cannot. I take communion in line with what my Lord and apostle Paul said. Simply for remembrance.

My brother, I used 'camp' in a loose sense. And even started with a laugh. Certainly, I endorse your approach of sticking to the issues and vindicating your stance without forging unhelpful alliances.

Candour:

Don't add to the word pls.

Eph 1:7
'In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace:'

The blood redeemed you from the slave market of sin because that is the only thing we couldn't get by our efforts. Every other thing is gettable by human effort. Man has being equipped for that. You don't need to be a Christian to have the goodies of life.

Any body, whether good or bad, atheist or Muslim, sane or insane can get money, health etc. Even witch doctors claim to perform deliverance from powers of darkness for people but SALVATION CANNOT be obtained outside the blood of Christ.

My bro, that is what the blood is for. Remission of sins.

I disagree that the blood of Jesus bought only salvation and that other benefits such as healing and prosperity are available to all without Jesus. There is nothing extra-biblical about my reading of Eph. 1:7. This is how it reads in the Amplified version: "In Him we have redemption (deliverance and salvation) through His blood . . . ." The word translated salvation in the English carries with a wider meaning than just salvation and includes heath, prosperity, etc. The health and prosperity that Jesus gives cannot be found anywhere else. Jesus can give a brand new heart (or other organ) while a doctor can only give a tokunbo or artificial heart. Even if what Jesus gives were to be the same as what is available in the world, it does not mean that Jesus would not make them available to His people. While He was on earth, He healed the sick and fed multitudes even whe there were physicians and food markets around.

Gombs:

As simple as ABC. why is this difficult to get in?

You're probably one of the most difficult persons to understand here. The brother disagrees with your position that communion brings healing and you endorse his views in the same post he disagrees as easy as ABC?

Gombs:


nlMediator, I will not argue with you


Folks that view this page can deduce the truth for themselves by the holyspirit.


Cheers

I agree. Only thing is that I have not even expanded on my views. We were just examining yours, which is riddled with intellectual inconsistency. When I get a chance to explain the scriptural validity of pleading the blood of Jesus, you and others should feel free to critique. For now, just ponder on how you arrive at the conclusion that something is wrong simply because it was not done in the NT, yet you strongly propagate the idea that people should surrender their first month's salary as first fruits, when you find no such practice in the NT. Again, I agree that people should look at it and make up their mind about the tenability of your position.

nlMediator:

I disagree that the blood of Jesus bought only salvation and that other benefits such as healing and prosperity are available to all without Jesus. There is nothing extra-biblical about my reading of Eph. 1:7. This is how it reads in the Amplified version: "In Him we have redemption (deliverance and salvation) through His blood . . . ." The word translated salvation in the English carries with a wider meaning than just salvation and includes heath, prosperity, etc. The health and prosperity that Jesus gives cannot be found anywhere else. Jesus can give a brand new heart (or other organ) while a doctor can only give a tokunbo or artificial heart. Even if what Jesus gives were to be the same as what is available in the world, it does not mean that Jesus would not make them available to His people. While He was on earth, He healed the sick and fed multitudes even whe there were physicians and food markets around.

Something does not seem right here. Do we then use the english dictionary as the standard for checking meanings of biblical words?

Does salvation mean health and prosperity in the context at which it was used in the scriptures?

Alwaystrue:
It is because God knows the end from the beginning. He does these things to make us continually trust, love and believe Him more. A problem for some is an avenue to show innovation for others. It is a thing of perception.


On the issue of the pleading the blood. I believe that the blood has been shed for us and our mouths are like the 'hyssop' used to apply it because we overcome the devil by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. This is continuous.
The blood of Jesus speaks better things (mercy) than the blood of Esau (vengeance). So it is possible that when a saint has fallen, he pleads the blood for mercy and seeks grace to help him turn away and continually do right.
The blood of Jesus is the price used to purchase a person from destruction/penalty, we continually confess to salvation.

people generally "plead the blood" the way you would apply a talisman. this is an interesting take that makes sense to me

nlMediator:

I disagree that the blood of Jesus bought only salvation and that other benefits such as healing and prosperity are available to all without Jesus. There is nothing extra-biblical about my reading of Eph. 1:7. This is how it reads in the Amplified version: "In Him we have redemption (deliverance and salvation) through His blood . . . ." The word translated salvation in the English carries with a wider meaning than just salvation and includes heath, prosperity, etc. The health and prosperity that Jesus gives cannot be found anywhere else. Jesus can give a brand new heart (or other organ) while a doctor can only give a tokunbo or artificial heart. Even if what Jesus gives were to be the same as what is available in the world, it does not mean that Jesus would not make them available to His people. While He was on earth, He healed the sick and fed multitudes even whe there were physicians and food markets around.

My bro, the deliverance the amplified version talks about is from the power of sin. We were under the bondage of sin because of the adamic nature and that is what we are delivered from. Our die by fire movement has made every reference to deliverance as being associated with demonic oppression.

As long as you're in this corruptible body of flesh, you are subject to its failings. Sickness comes because body tissues, immune system become weak and people experience this at random. See examples, Kumuyi's wife died of throat cancer, Oral Roberts had a pacemaker inserted in his heart after experiencing 2 dangerous heart problems, Obadare was blind till the day of his death. Are these not the heroes of faith we look up to? Do we say God failed because of these instances?

The problem is the horrible and perverted explanation of ROM 8:18-24 that we have in pentecostal circles today. I don't want to derail this thread further by delving into it now.

Pls bro, the blood bought salvation. We will get the glorious new body free of every corruption when Christ returns. Until then, some pagans will enjoy better health, prosperity etc than most fervent Christians and it won't be because God abandoned his children. Its just that the flesh will always remain corruptible flesh.

nlMediator:

My brother, I used 'camp' in a loose sense. And even started with a laugh. Certainly, I endorse your approach of sticking to the issues and vindicating your stance without forging unhelpful alliances.

My sincere apologies for not seeing the humour in your post my bro.

Oya, let me laugh

Candour:

My bro, the deliverance the amplified version talks about is from the power of sin. We were under the bondage of sin because of the adamic nature and that is what we are delivered from. Our die by fire movement has made every reference to deliverance as being associated with demonic oppression.

As long as you're in this corruptible body of flesh, you are subject to its failings. Sickness comes because body tissues, immune system become weak and people experience this at random. See examples, Kumuyi's wife died of throat cancer, Oral Roberts had a pacemaker inserted in his heart after experiencing 2 dangerous heart problems, Obadare was blind till the day of his death. Are these not the heroes of faith we look up to? Do we say God failed because of these instances?

The problem is the horrible and perverted explanation of ROM 8:18-24 that we have in pentecostal circles today. I don't want to derail this thread further by delving into it now.

Pls bro, the blood bought salvation. We will get the glorious new body free of every corruption when Christ returns. Until then, some pagans will enjoy better health, prosperity etc than most fervent Christians and it won't be because God abandoned his children. Its just that the flesh will always remain corruptible flesh.

It’s not just deliverance from sin; it’s also deliverance from the effects of sin, which include separation from God, sickness and lack of prosperity. Until Adam sinned, he had fellowship with God. Until Adam sinned, he was never sick. Until Adam sinned, he was a prosperous man. When he sinned, the Lord cursed the ground, thus affecting his ability to prosper. Jesus’ sacrifice took care of all these problems. That’s why the word used for salvation is soteria. Look it up in the original language and it means deliverance, preservation, safety, health. It is the word in Acts 27.34 when Paul was in a ship wreck. There it is translated as health (KJV), survival (NIV), preservation (NASB), safety and strength (Amp.).

It is interesting that you’re exalting the experience of others – Christians and non-christians alike – to determine the validity of God’s Word. Were you not the person rejecting the same practice in the eating-in-the-dream discussion? I assume you agree that Jesus rescued us from the nature of sin, thus enabling us to have dominion over sin. With that we should lead a more sin-free life. I’m sure that you know that many non-christians lead more moral lives than Christians. Can we then assert that there was no point to Jesus saving us from sin, as far as life on earth is concerned, because many people are doing a better job taking care of sin that Christians? No. Likewise, non-christians walking in health or wealth does nothing to undermine the purpose of the Lord’s sacrifice.

Moreover, some sicknesses and diseases are directly traceable to the devil. No other power or person can fully deliver from such but Jesus. That’s why Jesus came. The Bible makes clear in Matt 8 that Jesus was fulfilling the prophecy in Isaiah 53 which says that part of the Messiah’s mission when He comes on earth is to take away our infirmities, sicknesses and diseases. And Peter lets us know that Jesus demonstrated that when He went about doing good and healing all those oppressed of the devil (Acts. 10.38). Perhaps He came to heal but only before He died, meaning that people that experienced Him before His death experienced a ‘better’ Jesus than those that are experiencing Him today?

Finally, what is your answer to the point that Jesus can give health like no other – like a brand new heart – or do you know of any religion or earthly system that can do something similar?

Candour:

My sincere apologies for not seeing the humour in your post my bro.

Oya, let me laugh

Ha ha ha, all's well that ends well!!!