kambo:

ur right, u know my stand on this issue.
But like i said about d bible answerg scientic questions years b4 they were scientifcally verifiable, man discovering tht d wrld is roundish didnt make d bible more authentic?
It only satisfied man's intellectual curiosity. The bible isnt written to satisfy all ur intellectual probes, else it would be too big to carry.
It's a highly summarised book.
Tht it doesnt satisfy all ur intellectual queries doesnt make it less authentic.

Science is always behind d bible.
I made d case of d shape of d earth ,later discovered by columbus to b tru,
if d bible was written by man, like all things man it would b irrelevant in d light of new discoveries (so called cutting edge science) ,the koran on d other hand contains clearly scientifically
implausible statements!
Cop outs.

Guy, let me make some corrections to your stream of thought here. Before u start saying that science is behind the bible, before the time of Christopher Columbus, were not your church leaders among those that held tanaciously to the belief that the earth was flat? Had Columbus not "scientifically" discovered that the earth was round and had he not GIVEN PROOF that the earth was round, would ur church leaders (those who have read that bible from cover to cover) have discovered and given proof that the earth was round?

And guy, you're saying the bible is a highly summarised book. You're talking as if the bible was written summarily by one person. You seem to forget that many books were brought together to form d bible. And u're trying to say that all those books were summarised by their different authors?

Then you tell me that the bible wasn't written by man. And I begin to wonder: did God write the bible? Even ur scriptures say that "all scripture is INSPIRED" by God ...". I have checked the meaning of d word "inspire" in so many dictionaries. You righteous people interpret that word to mean "dictate" especially as encouraged by your priests and pastors. INSPIRE and DICTATE can never mean the same thing. You guys should stop interpreting inspire as dictate. Since God inspired it, like d bible said (blowing it's own trumpet, as usual) it doesn't mean God dictated it. So how can u tell me it wasn't written by man but by God. If inspire a poet to write a poem about me, does it mean that it is I who wrote the poem, instead of the poet?

As for irregularities in the Bible, if you want us to go into that, let me know. And I will start there from my next update.

kambo:
Scientists discovered in the previous century that sound waves cud damage physical structures! Exonerating the wall of jericho story in d bible from d age long prison of myth and ridicule.
- man cudnt think tht up. Else d man wud b ahead of his time!

Lastly, all science eventually rests on some statements of faith. Statements tht CANNOT b dtermined unambiguously by man's tool of logic and reasong.
READ up on d foundations of mathematics and u'll find this at its root.
Set theory on which all modern mathematics is built has disturbing root issues,theyre so amorphous and ambiguous tht instead of splitting hairs mathematicians simply decide whether TO BELIEVE OR NOT TO BELIEVE.
The bible is d same, and it makes a statement which d reader is given d choice to accept or reject.
Extra information doesnt do anythg. Ur choice doesnt change anythg.
Thats d nature of a fact. Nuetrality is impossible.

As for believing blindly, I keep saying it, it is of no use. Do not let ur church leaders turn you into blind people. "Blind people leading blind people", even ur bible mentioned it somewhere. I keep saying it, if God wanted us to be blind and non-inquisitive, he wouldn't have asked us to "ask and you will receive, seek and u shall find, knock and d door will be opened". If God created us in his image like ur bible says, then he would be happier seeing us struggling to get to understand things about him better rather than just reading things and believing what u're told.

nobilis:

That's the question that needs to be answered. You don't just assume/believe that it is God just because the Bible said so. After all, in the Yoruba tradition, they tell how Oduduwa created the universe. And so many other cultures have such claims about their chief gods.

So my question is, what do we really believe?

My statement is about supernatural power, I ve not mentioned which God it is.

JMAN05:

My statement is about supernatural power, I ve not mentioned which God it is.

Alright

nobilis:

Guy, let me make some corrections to your stream of thought here. Before u start saying that science is behind the bible, before the time of Christopher Columbus, were not your church leaders among those that held tanaciously to the belief that the earth was flat? Had Columbus not "scientifically" discovered that the earth was round and had he not GIVEN PROOF that the earth was round, would ur church leaders (those who have read that bible from cover to cover) have discovered and given proof that the earth was round?

And guy, you're saying the bible is a highly summarised book. You're talking as if the bible was written summarily by one person. You seem to forget that many books were brought together to form d bible. And u're trying to say that all those books were summarised by their different authors?

Then you tell me that the bible wasn't written by man. And I begin to wonder: did God write the bible? Even ur scriptures say that "all scripture is INSPIRED" by God ...". I have checked the meaning of d word "inspire" in so many dictionaries. You righteous people interpret that word to mean "dictate" especially as encouraged by your priests and pastors. INSPIRE and DICTATE can never mean the same thing. You guys should stop interpreting inspire as dictate. Since God inspired it, like d bible said (blowing it's own trumpet, as usual) it doesn't mean God dictated it. So how can u tell me it wasn't written by man but by God. If inspire a poet to write a poem about me, does it mean that it is I who wrote the poem, instead of the poet?

As for irregularities in the Bible, if you want us to go into that, let me know. And I will start there from my next update.



As for believing blindly, I keep saying it, it is of no use. Do not let ur church leaders turn you into blind people. "Blind people leading blind people", even ur bible mentioned it somewhere. I keep saying it, if God wanted us to be blind and non-inquisitive, he wouldn't have asked us to "ask and you will receive, seek and u shall find, knock and d door will be opened". If God created us in his image like ur bible says, then he would be happier seeing us struggling to get to understand things about him better rather than just reading things and believing what u're told.

keep ur arguments on trck.
In d days of Jesus, the religious authority were wrong. Ur reference to "church leaders" is out of point, church leaders can b wrong, but the bible cant.
Columbus "discovered" that the world is round. The bible written centuries earlier had already said so.
Colombus cud hav believed the bible or he cud have sought to discover the truth for himself.
Believing the bible without evidence is wat christianity is all about.
Sailing round d wrld is a very expensive way to find out a truth simply stated in d word.
If men were arguing tht d earth is flat and d bible was written by man it wud v reflected d current sentiments and said d wrld was flat.
"wud ur church leaders hav discovered and given proof" -
Church leaders ar not d standard 4 interpretg d bible.
Proof of a truth is irrelevant.
And d bible is God's word, choosg to believe the bible after u'v got physcal evidence - like colombus did - is plain old doubt.
Thomas didnt believe Jesus had risen until he wud see the nail holes and put his finger there.
But others had told him tht Jesus had risen , thomas cud either believe without seeing or believe after his 5 senses confirm the news but in d end , he saw Jesus and d nail holes and discovered that d disciples were telling d truth all d while.

The bible says "by faith it's impossible to please God ".
Like the thomas situation, God, has made his word available.
He says in his word that He is God, He created d earth etc . You can either blv his wrds ONLY now or reject it until u hav all d physcal evidence u desire.
But like thomas , seeing the nail holes, puttg his fingers in them, didnt make the earlier claims of d disciples more tru.
Colombus sailing around d wrld didnt make the bible verse tht said the earth is round more tru.
Physcal evidence doesnt strenghten d truth.
So if science confirms d word, science didnt strenghten d truth.

.... (to b continued)

@nobilis

"the bible is summarised..."
if u cant deduce properly then there's no point tryg arguing with u.
I said the bible is a highly summarised book . What in tht statement gave u d conclusions u came up with?
Highly summarised and "written by 1 person" . Wat kind of thinking is this?
How dyu arrive at this conclusion and try to put wrds in my mouth?
Read my former post in context- all ur premise is flawed based on that false conclusion.

"are u tryg to say tht those books were summarised by their different authors"

let me help u.
Highly summarised means,
sparse in extraneous details.
Who summarised it? Ur question.
Ur thinking is wrong here.
Ur thinking wen i say summarised, tht a longer draft existed then d authors shortened it to this final form. That's not wat i meant by summarised. Summarised means the Inspirator of d bible gave just enough information that the user of d bible wud need. Thts y d bible is portable. God also gives his children the holy spirit to guide them into more truth. Summarised means tht God said he created the heavens and the earth , without giving extra physcal details of the process.
The bible says God causes the sun to rise and d rain to fall without talking of d earth rotating on its axis or the water cycles!
That's wat i mean by summarisation. God left out unnecessary details wen inspiring d wrd.

The bible written by man.
U're wrestling with d interpretation of the wrd "inspired".
Then u jump to the conclusion tht christians interprete it as "dictate"
..
This argument is pointless.
The only reference for ur argument is wat d bible says not wat different christian groups thnk of wat d bible says.
Stop overstepping the boundaries of d scope of argument.
The bible says ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BY GOD.
The bible says no scripture is of private interpretation but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the HOLY SPIRIT.
Men were the vessels for penning the scriptures.
But the ideas were not their own but God's thats y it's called God's word.
The books making up the bible were written by different authors in different locations and from all works of life over a large span of time (some centuries). They didnt meet each other to determine wat to write yet their writings are wholely consistent.
Isaiah wrote about d vigin birth ,the infanticide and relocation of Jesus to egypt, years b4 Jesus was born.
How cud this b d work of man's mind.
Wen did man bcome able to foretell d future with total accuracy!

Translated bible versions include conventions and injections tht are not in d original manuscripts.
E.g original manuscripts dont contain chapters and verses.
But it's in translated versions,
this introduction alone cud obscure certain meangs in d bible.
But the errors in d translations ar from d human translators not from d original manuscripts.


"as for believg blindly, i've told you it's of no use ... "
i dnt know wat u mean by "believe blndly".
Because in life u cant function if you hav to hav all d facts down b4 u believe. You hav to simply accept tht wat sombodi tells u is tru without tryng to verify.
E.g in school u were told that 1+1=2, and u believed this blindly,
you hav no way to prov this is tru except u acquire undergraduate level knowledge in mathematics.
Many will never b able to prove that it is tru, to prove that 1+1=2,
cud fill over 100 sheets of paper.
Which is easier. To accept tht ur teacher is right or to prove it first b4 believg?
If use an electric appliance, u use it believg tht if u follow d instructions on d manual it will wrk, u buy and use a tv blindly without knowg anythg about d inner wrkgs.
U are told that dis button turns it on and d button changes channel,
and u believe . They tell u tht one scientist two centuries ago discovered electricity and u believe blindly..
But u suddenly cant do same 4 d bible! More like u choose not to.

"rather than just reading things and believg what we are told.. "
God isnt against intellectual curiousity.
The bible says he set d wrld in the hearts of men.
Solomon,author of d book of proverbs, wrote books on plants and animals.
God created d physcal laws governg the physcal wrld and gave men d mental capacity to reason things thru. But about himself ,he contained the knowledge in d bible and made d bible availble for all to read and discover how to know him. You'll never discover God thru a microscope or laboratory experiments.
God says in d bible come let us reason together, he says he is a spirit, he says to come to him you must pass thru d door,Jesus christ,
etc. If God were a physcal being u cud discover him physcally but he's not.so try as u can, u'll never b able to discover God thru reasong or physcal senses.

There is obviously no point trying to reason with you @kambo, no point
You're zealously defending this ur bible. Do u know how the books that are in d bible were selected? Have u really sat down to ask urself why the Catholic Bible has more books than other bibles? Since u feel God gave the bible to man, which Bible is accurate: the Catholic Bible or the Protestant Bible? Have u pondered these questions? The bible was not there when Christianity began; so have u found out how it came to be? Do you also know that some prominent figures in that your Bible never existed in history? Do you also know that some dates given in that your bible are historically inaccurate?
You try to use Faith to condemn Reason. Who told u that the Bible is the word of God? It is d Bible. Who told u that the Bible was inspired by God? That same bible. So apart from what the Bible said, there is no evidence anywhere that the Bible is d word of God.
Don't you, at least, find that suspicious?

nobilis:
I've been going through the Bible lately. The Old Testament of the Bible has always been of special interest to me. There are so many things in the Bible that are inconsistent with reality and history. The actual historical existence of many figures in the Bible is yet to be confirmed. How are we then to really believe that the Bible is historically accurate? I dare to ask: how do we know that God really exists? Please leave the "I just know" or "I just believe and have faith" thingies aside. How exactly can the existence of God be proven?

There are lots of evidences to historical figures of the bible..... The most striking of them is "Nebuchadnezzar" whose histories and victories are written on Babylonian clay tablets and other archaeological artifacts. It was once thought that he was a legend or a fable formulated by bible writers until archaeologists unearthed or discovered Babylonian clay tablets and records with the name "Nabu kuddur uzur" and prayers that are attributed to him. Other biblical figures with actual historical evidences are Belshazzar who is recorded in Babylonian clay tablets as "Bel sha uzur" Rabsaris who is recorded as "Rab seresi" and Nebo-Sarsechim as "Nabu Sarsunnkum" others include King Necho (Nakhu), Jonah the prophet (Yunusa or Yunis), Nimrod (Nimrud or Namrud) e.t.c.

lordnicklaus:




There are lots of evidences to historical figures of the bible..... The most striking of them is "Nebuchadnezzar" whose histories and victories are written on Babylonian clay tablets and other archaeological artifacts. It was once thought that he was a legend or a fable formulated by bible writers until archaeologists unearthed or discovered Babylonian clay tablets and records with the name "Nabu kuddur uzur" and prayers that are attributed to him. Other biblical figures with actual historical evidences are Belshazzar who is recorded in Babylonian clay tablets as "Bel sha uzur" Rabsaris who is recorded as "Rab seresi" and Nebo-Sarsechim as "Nabu Sarsunnkum" others include King Necho (Nakhu), Jonah the prophet (Yunusa or Yunis), Nimrod (Nimrud or Namrud) e.t.c.

You've said nothing new.
At least, I never said all biblical figures lacked historical existence.

Can you prove the existence of Moses?

nobilis:


You've said nothing new.
At least, I never said all biblical figures lacked historical existence.

Can you prove the existence of Moses?

The Tell Amarna tablets and scrolls recorded the emmigration of a people known as the Habiru from Egypt. The Habiru were later identified to be the Hebrew people. It records their sufferings in Egypt. We also have texts such as The Midrash which also give details of Moses' life that are not recorded in the Bible.

lordnicklaus:




The Tell Amarna tablets and scrolls recorded the emmigration of a people known as the Habiru from Egypt. The Habiru were later identified to be the Hebrew people. It records their sufferings in Egypt. We also have texts such as The Midrash which also give details of Moses' life that are not recorded in the Bible.

I asked you about Moses and you're telling me about Tel-el Amarna tablets. Did you also read that the Tel-el Amarna tablets described the Habiru as a band of outlaws who were roaming and marauding all over the Mesopotamian plains.
Were the Hebrews in your bible regarded as outlaws and bandits?


The Midrash is not a stand-alone document. The Midrash is sort of an interpretatory text for the Torah/Pentateuch just like you have biblical commentaries by Christian theologians today.
Since it is an interpretatory text for the Torah and the Torah talks about Moses, why won't the Midrash mention Moses??

Don't just google something and come and pour it here. It smacks of nothing but naïveté. For your own good, learn how to do in-depth researches. It will go a long way to help you.

And by the way, back to the question.
How can you prove the existence of Moses?

nobilis:


I asked you about Moses and you're telling me about Tel-el Amarna tablets. Did you also read that the Tel-el Amarna tablets described the Habiru as a band of outlaws who were roaming and marauding all over the Mesopotamian plains.
Were the Hebrews in your bible regarded as outlaws and bandits?


The Midrash is not a stand-alone document. The Midrash is sort of an interpretatory text for the Torah/Pentateuch just like you have biblical commentaries by Christian theologians today.
Since it is an interpretatory text for the Torah and the Torah talks about Moses, why won't the Midrash mention Moses??

Don't just google something and come and pour it here. It smacks of nothing but naïveté. For your own good, learn how to do in-depth researches. It will go a long way to help you.

And by the way, back to the question.
How can you prove the existence of Moses?

I will try and make a new post concerning this topic

uboma:
Look around you, would u dare to say that God doesn't exist? The complexity of the Universe is just one of many examples. See the way the moon and stars provide light during the night and the sun during the day. Do you know that the earth is on the right position in relation to the sun for life to exist? If the earth had been an inch closer to the sun, everything on earth will be @ boiling point? An inch away from its present exact position to the sun, the earth be on freezing point, too cold to allow life to flourish.

Now consider the way the human body was beautifully designed to enjoy life. What about other creations too? These living things didn't just come by chance. God created them. What about the oxygen we breathe in? Do you know that if God seizes the air we breathe in, not even you who is wondering about the existence of God, will be alive today?

WHEN PEOPLE ARE ASKED FOR A PROOF IN THE REALMS OF RELIGION. WHAT ONE ENDS UP GETTING ARE NOT PROOFS BUT ANALOGIES.

Its very fascinating because virtually MOST of this anologies are ALWAYS FAULTY.

AN EXPLANATION IS NOT A PROOF.

I might give you a complete COHERENT EXPLANATION that our mobile phones works by WITCH CRAFT but does that prove that it does?

The question the op asked is a MOST intelligent one NOW that he or she is reading the BIBLE by him or herself.

Why will the writings of a suppose 'ALL KNOWNING GOD' hit the rocks when it comes in contact with REALITY?

What does that PROOF?

OMNISCIENCE or FALLIBLE

Message to the op, nobilis. READ THE BIBLE WITH OBJECTIVITY. Dont be conqured by DOGMA. It is the 21st century.

nobilis:


Genesis chapter 1 verse 1 says .... You have already declared it the truth and hav declared it factual. If I ask u now the basis of ur belief, u will tell me "my bible tells me so".

Let me ask u, my man, who wrote the book of Genesis. You will tell me it was Moses. If I ask, how did u know, u will tell me the bible said so.

I ask u: why is it that there is no other authentication for the bible except by d bible itself. The bible praises itself and raises itself to such high places. And if I ask u now: how did the bible come about? U won't even know.
Guy, please just open ur eyes.

THIS IS CURIOUSITY AT ITS BEST. I DONT like YOUR LINE OF THINKING.

I LOVE IT!!! HONESTLY I REALLY DO!!!

It is called REALITY OF PRECISION WITH CERTIFICATION.

You are enquiring for a FALSFICATION to proving the AUTHENTICITY of the Bible.

A truly OBJECTIVE approach deviod of dogma. In the last century, its been the test which must be passed by anyone who claims to present any theory at all before the science community.

"If you have a theory, do not bother us with it unless you bring with that theory a way to prove it whether you are wrong or correct". The science community insist.

Such a test was exactly why the scientific community listened to Einstein towards the beginning of the century. He came with a new theory and said. "i believe the universe works like this, and here are three ways to prove whether am wrong". His theory was subjected to the test, and within six years it passed. THAT WAS INFACT WHEN HE WAS NOW ALLOWED A LISTENING EARS TO BE HEARD.

That is what you are INTELLIGENTLY asking about the PROOF OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD and the AUTHENTICITY OF THE BIBLE.

Its no harm at all to asking QUESTIONS as long as one is being objective and sincere in one's QUEST.

This is the kind of education that we lack. The one that encourages objective rational thought. THE ENLIGHTENMENT and not INDOCTRRINATION. Our kind of education only further comforms us to S-T-U-P-I-D-T-Y which should have been the SAVING GRACE FOR ALL THOSE LIVING IN THE BONDAGE OF IRRATIONAL DOGMA.

WORDWORLD:


WHEN PEOPLE ARE ASKED FOR A PROOF IN THE REALMS OF RELIGION. WHAT ONE ENDS UP GETTING ARE NOT PROOFS BUT ANALOGIES.

Its very fascinating because virtually MOST of this anologies are ALWAYS FAULTY.

AN EXPLANATION IS NOT A PROOF.

I might give you a complete COHERENT EXPLANATION that our mobile phones works by WITCH CRAFT but does that prove that it does?

The question the op asked is a MOST intelligent one NOW that he or she is reading the BIBLE by him or herself.

Why will the writings of a suppose 'ALL KNOWNING GOD' hit the rocks when it comes in contact with REALITY?

What does that PROOF?

OMNISCIENCE or FALLIBLE

Message to the op, nobilis. READ THE BIBLE WITH OBJECTIVITY. Dont be conqured by DOGMA. It is the 21st century.

If you feel that the above points raised does not prove that God really exists, then your case is a lost one and there is nothing anyone can do to convince you.

Keep living in self denial....

Now it's whether a god exists... which used to be whether gods existed.. the ancients dealt with that and now it's our turn to put the nail in the superstitious coffin one last time.