beejaay:

and who asked them to spend years learning it??

if a total novice cannot pick a book and understand it to the basic then that book is as useless as it should be (and am sure the Holy Quran and the Holy Bible is not useless...)... a book that is for the whole benefit of mankind should be understandable to the most stupid among them so that they will not be brainwashed and used against the very purpose its written for

going by your logic since shekau,osama, and many more islamic terrorist went through rigorous study on Quran we can say that they are qualified to be called scholar ryt...

and pls tell me why will a Supreme God make a book He sent to his people so hard that they have to go through some form of school to understand it??


since the sunni and shia and different group scholars went through rigorous Quranic school why are they still divergent in their views and almost sees each other as enemies??( my thinking is that with there supposedly years of learning they should understand it to the fullest and the issue of sect shouldnt exist in the first place)

my sister dont get it twisted Quran, Bible is as clear as daylight and as simple, clear as anything can be...it doesnt need any special education..the word in it is clear for any one to understand and interpreters or the so called scholars are not needed

beejaay:

the fact that Prophet came in human physical form means he has all the attribute and xteristics of that form which its finite..when you take on the physical form of a goat u will definitely eat grass and when its a lion u will definitely eat flesh (no other way round it)

no matter how hard you try to manipulate the verse of the Quran, it simply means what it means "HUMAN"

Al-Baqir:


The sura reads:

"Say (O Muhammad): "I am only a man like you. It has been REVEALED to me..." (Q18 the very last verse).

Does every man get revelation? Only special and exceptional among "men" does. On the other hand they are called "al-Mustapha - chosen one".

Before they can be given revelation or chosen, their character, thinking and judgement among many other thing MUST be exceptional not comparable to every tom, dick and Harry.

Al-Baqir:


The sura reads:

"Say (O Muhammad): "I am only a man like you. It has been REVEALED to me..." (Q18 the very last verse).

Does every man get revelation? Only special and exceptional among "men" does. On the other hand they are called "al-Mustapha - chosen one".

Before they can be given revelation or chosen, their character, thinking and judgement among many other thing MUST be exceptional not comparable to every tom, dick and Harry.

Al-Baqir:

"That the prophet Muhammad was an illiterate man"

Was that my wording? I strongly doubt it. I will appreciate you the more if you can go through my replies to Username's theories.

Here's my exact wording:

"The holy prophet (saws) was not able to write or
read (he was an Ummy which Qur'an itself testifies). One of the uniqueness about Qur'an is how it was IMPRINTED and collected into memory. "

Al-Baqir:

1. Honestly I deliberately used the word 'cannot read or write' rather than "illiterate" in the context of this contemporary world. At least you will agree with me that inability to read or write does not necessarily mean one is foolish or unintelligent.

Al-Baqir:

So far (if you read and digest our conversations well) I have been battling him to prove that English translation of the holy Qur'an does not do justice to the Arabic wording of the Qur'an; thereby, studying Arabic, understanding Arabic, recitation in Arabic is the BEST (I cited an example from sura Nisa vs 1). Remember he's a type that tend to discourage Arabic.

Al-Baqir:

THE ARABIC WORD USED
The exact word used in the holy Qur'an is "UMMY" (pl. UMMIYIN).
Going through many English translated Qur'an, you see "illiterate" or "Unlettered" etc.

Literally that might be the meaning but not necessarily mean that and Qur'anic meaning is quite different entirely. In the Qur'an, it means "GENTILE" or "ONE WHO IS NOT PRIMARILY FAMILIAR WITH A LAW (apparently Moses's Law).

'Gentile' though non-jewish, also mean someone who is not a reader of Torah.

Ref: Edward Lanes Lexicon explain this in detail (vol. 1)

Al-Baqir:

Here's my exact wording:

"The holy prophet (saws) was not able to write or
read (he was an Ummy which Qur'an itself testifies).

Al-Baqir:

THE ARABIC WORD USED
The exact word used in the holy Qur'an is "UMMY" (pl. UMMIYIN).
Going through many English translated Qur'an, you see "illiterate" or "Unlettered" etc.

Literally that might be the meaning but not necessarily mean that and Qur'anic meaning is quite different entirely. In the Qur'an, it means "GENTILE" or "ONE WHO IS NOT PRIMARILY FAMILIAR WITH A LAW (apparently Moses's Law).

Al-Baqir:


Hmmm.
I agree Qur'an has been revealed and simplify for human understanding. But wait a minute brother does every tom, dick and harry understand the same way?
Even in the class-room comprising group of students under a single teacher teaching a particular subject, do they all understand the same way?
Are our power of assimilation, and interpretation the same?

Al-Baqir:

If you journey through the Qur'an, you will realize there are absolutely two categories of verses in the entire book. (Q3 vs 7). Some verses are clear (Muhkam) and understandable: these verses were made "foundation of the book (Quran).
The second category are the 'Mutashabihats'. These are allegorical verses; ambigious, having more than one meaning.
Now how do every tom, dick and harry understand this kind? Allah says the meaning of this verses is only known to Him and those who are grounded in knowledge.

Al-Baqir:

There's a need for a teacher at every school of every knowledge. Reading and thinking and mediating alone will bring a rigid, vague and one sided understanding. Where your own thinking stops, others start.

Salam.

usermane:

Your view is then contrary to the verse. As long as he said "a man like you",then we just have to take it the Prophet aside the revealation he got is just a man like me and you, struggling to attain perfection. I already told you to check Qur'an 22:52,53 out. That a man is a saint with exalted morals doesn't make him free of mistakes or faults. Also you said Muhammad was always a monotheist, right from birth, fine i will dig more on that.

Then mutashabihat verses are not marked in the Qur'an or can you provide us a list of all such verses? Besides, God did not point out those who are grounded in knowledge. Anybody can strive to be knowledgeable enough with due effort to uncover the true meanings of mutashabihat(multiple meaning) verses.

usermane: Also you said Muhammad was always a monotheist, right from birth, fine i will dig more on that.

RoyPCain:
@usermane and those responding to him, in support or otherwise; "Frowning and turning away" his face from a blind man who couldn't see it is not offensive to the blind man. After all, he couldn't see the 'speech'. If he [AS] had verbalized it, that will be another matter. A deaf man who you speak with anger to with a "grin" on your face may just laugh with you since he can only read your voice but can't hear you. it is the same blind man [RA] the prophet [SA] says by his interaction my Lord remembers me [Although he is the one revelation is coming to day and night, the one Allah mentions his excellent quality to the angels so much so the angel of the mountain commends his not allowing him to destroy Taif, the same prophet [SA] who appointed the blind companion [RA] a governor of a major city]. I remember a friend saying as long as his wife shows 'happiness' in honoring him in his presence, whatever she says of "yinmu" behind him, he is not aware of it.

RoyPCain:
Allah {SWT} used the Prophet [SA] to teach us, correcting us by what you think are faults of the Messenger [SA]. as illustration of what i mean, correction of mistakes in salat upon making it up, is 2 prostrations before you teslim out. I hope you practice this sunnah?


you seem to criticize the Messenger [SA] and by extension, you might have criticized The One Who sent him [SA]. May Allah help us all and forgive us. Amin.

Akin d archi: For the qUestion about the wisdom behind Sending an unlettered prophet with the message........something I have heard some scholarS say that if he had been able to read pple up till this day wud be doubting his credibilty, thinking he was reading the things he said from a past scripture. Allah knows best

usisky:

[size=13pt]
Peace Sir.

If this were the wisdom/logic, one might then ask why God did not appoint illiterate prophets to convey His earlier scriptures
so that the same rule will apply?

You see, if you follow the teachings of scholars, you'll end up a sheep unable to think for himself. Like i said to Al-Baqir, the scholars
invented this idea to make it seem the prophet couldn't possibly have invented the quran when people started questioning the
veracity of the quran years after the death of the prophet.

The word UMMY, which they incorrectly translate as unlettered in the quran simply means a gentile(one who neither followed the
Torah or Gospel). Take a look at the following difference between YUSUF ALI translation and that of PICKHTALL of verse 3:75.

[3:75]........That is because they say: We have no duty to the Gentiles(ummyyeena). They speak a lie concerning Allah
knowingly.[Pickhtall]

[3:75].........they say, "there is no call on us [to keep faith] with these ignorant [Pagans](ummyyeena)." but they tell a lie against Allah, and [well] they know it.

Can you spot the difference? Pickhtall translates the verse correctly on this occasion because it wouldn't make any sense translating it
as unlettered/illiterate. while in other instances, pickhtall translates same word as illiterate. why? As for yusuf ali, his translation exposes
a clear distortion if we contrast it with his other translations of same word.
[/size]

usisky: [size=13pt]
Peace once more Mr. Al-Baqir.
[/size]



[size=13pt]
Sorry about that. Next time i will use your exact wording and not paraphrase you.
[/size]



[size=13pt]
yes! Inability to read or write does not reflect one's level of intelligence. On the contrary, i think one who cannot read or write
is still unlettered/illiterate in the art of reading and writing. So, if indeed this was the case for Muhammad as your post suggests(he could
neither read or write), then, i think the claims of those who say he was unlettered is not far fetched. No?
[/size]



[size=13pt]
We'll still get to this point later on. Like i said, let's go a step at a time. I will prove to you that his assertions are correct.
[/size]



[size=13pt]
I am glad you pointed this out. That was exactly where i was driving at. This is my first time hearing ANY muslim(Sunni or Shi'ah)
agreeing on this interpretation; quite commendable, thank you. However, i think you just RESEARCHED this before responding my
post, and that is why your research contradicts your initial statement. Here:
[/size]

Your initial statement:


[size=13pt]
You state here that the word 'UMMY' as used in the quran means one who cannot read or write. Your words in parenthesis
concurs with my allusion.
[/size]

Contradiction:


[size=13pt]
The underlined statement above suggests that you agree that in quranic terminology, the word UMMY thus refers to a gentile(one who
neither followed the Torah or Gospel). In fact, this is the true meaning of the word as intended by the author of the quran. Aside the
fact that you contradicted your initial statement, i fear in addition, you also contradict the vast majority of muslims(sunni or shi'i)
who believe the prophet was unlettered. As such, the quranic word they claim to have this connotation is UMMY. Thank you for
helping me debunk this misconception.

The word UMMY never meant an illiterate/unlettered. This later meaning was invented by muslim scholars years after the death
of the Prophet. This can easily be exposed in the light of the quran. If the word meant as they claimed, then it must be
used consistently in the translations. But just like you have observed, some verses that used the word UMMY would utterly
be rendered meaningless if translated as illiterate. I will use YUSUF ALI tranlation to show you this inconsistency in translation:

[2:78]And there are among them illiterates(ummyyuuna), who know not the Book, but [see therein their own] desires, and they do nothing conjecture.

[3:75].........they say, "there is no call on us [to keep faith] with these ignorant [Pagans]((ummyyeena )." but they tell a lie against Allah, and [well] they know it.

[62:2]It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered(ummyyeena) a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs..................

Why did YUSUF ALI translate 3:75 which uses same word(ummyyeena) as 62:2 to mean two different things. The distortion in obvious.
Translating 'ummy' in 3:75 as unlettered would render the verse meaningless, hence the reason ALI chose a different meaning.

Look at 62:2. Does this translation make any sense? Were the Arabs whom Muhammad was raised amongst unlettered? It's clear that this word ummy in the verse refers to gentiles(those who did not follow the Torah or Gospel).


AGAIN:

a- why do you think God appointed a man who can neither read nor write to deliver the final testament to humanity?

b-how did he ascertain that what the scribes penned down tallied with the exact words and letters revealed to him by GOD since he could
neither read or write as you claim?

c-can you adduce any evidence from the quran to support your claim?

d- what do you make of the following verse:
[25:5] They also said, "Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night."
[/size]

by beejaay: 7:01am

RoyPCain:
@usermane and those responding to him, in support or otherwise; "Frowning and turning away" his face from a blind man who couldn't see it is not offensive to the blind man. After all, he couldn't see the 'speech'. If he [AS] had verbalized it, that will be another matter. A deaf man who you speak with anger to with a "grin" on your face may just laugh with you since he can only read your voice but can't hear you. it is the same blind man [RA] the prophet [SA] says by his interaction my Lord remembers me [Although he is the one revelation is coming to day and night, the one Allah mentions his excellent quality to the angels so much so the angel of the mountain commends his not allowing him to destroy Taif, the same prophet [SA] who appointed the blind companion [RA] a governor of a major city]. I remember a friend saying as long as his wife shows 'happiness' in honoring him in his presence, whatever she says of "yinmu" behind him, he is not aware of it.

c'mon bros bros read your post above again and tell me thats not hypocrisy (can you tell us the meaning of hypocrisy bros plss)... so if i talk bad thing at your back am not doing the wrong thing since am not saying it in your front (according to your logic undecided cry cry)....so since the blind man cant see it is acceptable to have different form of negative body disposition towards him abi? kei what kind of backward reasoning is this my god

***NO ONE IS TALKING DOWN THE GREATNESS OF THE PROPHET, WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS THAT HE IS BUT A MAN AND NOT PERFECT...ONLY GOD IS PERFECT(WHAT AM I TALKING SEF PERFECTION IS HUMAN LANGUAGE, GOD IS BEYOUND PERFECTION AND IMPERFECTION)

RoyPCain:
Allah {SWT} used the Prophet [SA] to teach us, correcting us by what you think are faults of the Messenger [SA]. as illustration of what i mean, correction of mistakes in salat upon making it up, is 2 prostrations before you teslim out. I hope you practice this sunnah?


you seem to criticize the Messenger [SA] and by extension, you might have criticized The One Who sent him [SA]. May Allah help us all and forgive us. Amin.

no one is criticizing Him, we are simply upholding what is already in the Quran, it is you and your type that is criticizing the Duran and god by bringing in your own interpretation very far different what the Book says so u could satisfy your big man ego of our prophet is totally perfect and without fault (it nothing more than EGO PUMPING on your part)

vedaxcool: The op was used and now has been dumped, the same people who tolerated his thread for this long did so not because they are interested in learning anything about Islam but simply because it mainly conveys what they want to hear, had this thread been about why you should be a muslim or Muhammad pbuh , this thread would have been thrown within few seconds of its arrival, why? Allah says,

“They intend to put out the Light of Allaah (i.e. the religion of Islam, this Qur’aan, and Prophet Muhammad) with their mouths. But Allaah will bring His Light to perfection even though the disbelievers hate (it).

He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islamic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religions even though the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah and in His Messenger Muhammad) hate (it)”[al-Saff :8-9]

golpen: usermane

Empiree:
Clearly from his latest activities, he has problem with Muslims, Arabs, Arabic Quran etc

Empiree: He sounds like one of those ibn Shaitan.

Empiree:
I just came across this thread where i notice his post saying he detest the tag "Muslim".

Empiree: He's a confused fellow. Tricky, trying to be smart guy.

usermane:
you have a problem with critics or reformists.

[s]It is you who have been picking my words out of context.[/s]

And calling on your ummah against me. So?

Fella, i used to be an orthodox muslim, not so hardcore but often taking steps to keep the "sunnah" untill my life too a drastic turn last year.
Fella, if being a muslim or keeping the sunnah entails:

[s]1. Killing apostates and blasphemers.
2. Seeking intercession of Muhammad.
3. Freely preaching 'Islam' in Secular states while prohibiting preaching of other faiths in Sharia states.
4. Barring mixed gender relations while condoning marriages of Grandpas to prepubscent girls.
5. And so many baseless and anti Quranic doctrines, philosophies or ideals that have bound most muslims in self righteous backwardness;[/s]

Fella, if you don't know me now, you might never do. Remember, based on certain criteria, i still term myself as "muslim" except that am no longer orthodox anymore.

vedaxcool: ^
He recently, immediately after NL blackout claimed he is neither a muslim nor christians, in the complaint but unfortunately it was hidden. In suratul barqara the unbelievers asked. . . Shall we believe as the fools did? Allah says "of surety they are the fools, but they do not know. In essence this sort of behavior isn't new, when one wants to fool people he might succeed but at the end he remains the biggest of fool because he is fooling himself!