I wish religion were true ; i wish God actually exists ; i love the organized solemnity of the catholic church.....BUT the facts staring me in the face answer these questions in the negative and am sad!

Joshthefirst: people were first called christians because of their radical lives in antioch, probably In mockery.

Parts and bits of letters that make up the new tastement today were already in circulation in those times.

Christianity started in 33AD. The Bible was compiled and canonized almost 400 years later.

Historical fact!

One I made earlier
----------------------

Actually, maybe we can clarify things this way:

1. The Christian Bible was made in the first century. It came before "the Catholic Church" - let alone the Roman Catholic Church.

2. The Christian New Testament was produced by the Church and is a continuation of the Christian Old Testament (or Hebrew Bible) which existed before the Church of the Day of Pentecost.
------

3. On the other hand, the Roman Catholic Bible which was only made in 1546, and which is contrary to the Christian Bible of Christian tradition, was agreed by the Roman Catholic Church at a meeting with an unclear vote. That one came some 1500 or so years after "the Catholic Church" and also after the Roman Catholic Church.

Joshthefirst: this is a blatant lie. Stop spreading lies here. I have said christianity is more than just religion. Those who practice empty religious practices are shallow. And do not know God.

typical christian mentality.

only you and those who support u know God. Even other christians like catholics how have different views from you dont know God

josh the only one that knows god

rationalmind:

I'm not a christian.

Start by defending mohammeds journey on a winged horse. We can proceed from there. Or perhaps, another thread will do so we don't derail this

Edit: and trust me, you can't defend it. So, its better we don't even go into it.

Fristly, there's no mention of muhammad's journey on a winged horse in the Quran. I'll like you to give a reference where you saw it. However, muhammad actually descended to heaven spiritually not physically

[17:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious,
the Merciful.
[17:2] Glory be to Him Who carried His
servant by night from the Sacred Mosque
to the Distant Mosque, the environs of
which We have blessed, that We might
show him some of Our Signs. Surely, He
alone is the Hearing, the Seeing.
[17:3] And We gave Moses the Book, and
We made it a guidance for the children of
Israel,saying, ‘Take no guardian beside
Me,
[17:4] ‘O ye the progeny of those whom
We carried in the Ark with Noah.’ He was
indeed a grateful servant.
[17:5] And We revealed to the children of
Israel in the Book, saying, ‘You will surely
do mischief in the land twice, and you
will surely become excessively
overbearing.’
[17:6] So when the time for the first of
the two warnings came, We sent against
you someservants of Ours possessed of
great might in war, and they penetrated
the innermost parts of your houses, and
it was a warning that was bound to be
carried out.
[17:7] Then We gave you back the power
against them, and aided you with wealth
and children, and made you larger in
numbers.
you can check Quran and read the whole chapters and point to me where winged horse is mentioned. Thanks

rationalmind:

I'm not a christian.

Start by defending mohammeds journey on a winged horse. We can proceed from there. Or perhaps, another thread will do so we don't derail this

Edit: and trust me, you can't defend it. So, its better we don't even go into it.

Fristly, there's no mention of muhammad's journey on a winged horse in the Quran. I'll like you to give a reference where you saw it. However, muhammad actually descended to heaven spiritually not physically

[17:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious,
the Merciful.
[17:2] Glory be to Him Who carried His
servant by night from the Sacred Mosque
to the Distant Mosque, the environs of
which We have blessed, that We might
show him some of Our Signs. Surely, He
alone is the Hearing, the Seeing.
[17:3] And We gave Moses the Book, and
We made it a guidance for the children of
Israel,saying, ‘Take no guardian beside
Me,
[17:4] ‘O ye the progeny of those whom
We carried in the Ark with Noah.’ He was
indeed a grateful servant.
[17:5] And We revealed to the children of
Israel in the Book, saying, ‘You will surely
do mischief in the land twice, and you
will surely become excessively
overbearing.’
[17:6] So when the time for the first of
the two warnings came, We sent against
you someservants of Ours possessed of
great might in war, and they penetrated
the innermost parts of your houses, and
it was a warning that was bound to be
carried out.
[17:7] Then We gave you back the power
against them, and aided you with wealth
and children, and made you larger in
numbers.
you can check Quran and read the whole chapters and point to me where winged horse is mentioned. Thanks

slye:

Fristly, there's no mention of muhammad's journey on a winged horse in the Quran. I'll like you to give a reference where you saw it. However, muhammad actually descended to heaven spiritually not physically

[17:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious,
the Merciful.
[17:2] Glory be to Him Who carried His
servant by night from the Sacred Mosque
to the Distant Mosque, the environs of
which We have blessed, that We might
show him some of Our Signs. Surely, He
alone is the Hearing, the Seeing.
[17:3] And We gave Moses the Book, and
We made it a guidance for the children of
Israel,saying, ‘Take no guardian beside
Me,
[17:4] ‘O ye the progeny of those whom
We carried in the Ark with Noah.’ He was
indeed a grateful servant.
[17:5] And We revealed to the children of
Israel in the Book, saying, ‘You will surely
do mischief in the land twice, and you
will surely become excessively
overbearing.’
[17:6] So when the time for the first of
the two warnings came, We sent against
you someservants of Ours possessed of
great might in war, and they penetrated
the innermost parts of your houses, and
it was a warning that was bound to be
carried out.
[17:7] Then We gave you back the power
against them, and aided you with wealth
and children, and made you larger in
numbers.
you can check Quran and read the whole chapters and point to me where winged horse is mentioned. Thanks

I already told you to leave it. I rightly said you can't defend it. And the pathetic answer above confirms all I said. Just leave it or perhaps another thread will do.

rationalmind:

I already told you to leave it. I rightly said you can't defend it. And the pathetic answer above confirms all I said. Just leave it or perhaps another thread will do.

don't tell me i can't do justice to it. if you think i was wrong and there's any evidence to back it up. proof it. That's how to learn instead of bn mute on an issue!

slye:
don't tell me i can't do justice to it. if you think i was wrong and there's any evidence to back it up. proof it. That's how to learn instead of bn mute on an issue!

I hope you know ure derailing your own thread. That apart, I sensed already you won't be able to defend it and its going to amount to a waste of time. You even confirmed it with your reply. That was why I had to edit my initial post.

Just to show you one of the numerous errors in your reply, I NEVER SAID the quran mentioned the winged horse. You were arguing a straw.

rationalmind:

I hope you know ure derailing your own thread. That apart, I sensed already you won't be able to defend it and its going to amount to a waste of time. You even confirmed it with your reply. That was why I had to edit my initial post.

Just to show you one of the numerous errors in your reply, I NEVER SAID the quran mentioned the winged horse. You were arguing a straw.

God..... give us a proof for your statement that i was wrong. Simple! stop playing smart here.
Or is there hadith that made mention of it ? After those two book of reference of Muslims. The rest re myth and lies!
Thanks

slye:

God..... give us a proof for your statement that i was wrong. Simple! stop playing smart here.
Or is there hadith that made mention of it ? After those two book of reference of Muslims. The rest re myth and lies!
Thanks

lol its nt ur duty to decide wat is myth and lies, because there are so many lies u believe as truth

slye:
ofcos Muslims shd believe in the doctrines giving to all prophets and i never said i didn't believe in it. buh where's a book that contains the original doctrine given to jesus ? Bible has bn edited by men. we all knew that

Maybe you should ask Mohammed then. He asked you to believe in a non-existent book?

As far as I know, the Bible of Mohammed's time has remained the same till date.

You may want to provide the evidence that it has been edited.

italo:

Maybe you should ask Mohammed then. He asked you to believe in a non-existent book?

As far as I know, the Bible of Mohammed's time has remained the same till date.

You may want to provide the evidence that it has been edited.

so simple! you had old testament first, then the new testament. whose work is that?

slye:
so simple! you had old testament first, then the new testament. whose work is that?

The work of God.

The Bible of Mohammed's time I exactly the same as the one I hold in my hand right now.

If you say it isnt, provide Mohammed's Bible. Let us compare.

italo:

The work of God.

The Bible of Mohammed's time I exactly the same as the one I hold in my hand right now.

If you say it isnt, provide Mohammed's Bible. Let us compare.

bold is false

God doesnt do books

slye:
ofcos Muslims shd believe in the doctrines giving to all prophets and i never said i didn't believe in it. buh where's a book that contains the original doctrine given to jesus ? Bible has bn edited by men. we all knew that

If indeed you believe that God sent Jesus(and there is only One God as you say as muslims) and that the message of Jesus was from God,then as a muslim you should be able to provide the original message of Jesus since you say the one in the bible has been edited.How can you believe a 'prophet' without having anything to show as his doctrine?Even if you say His message was only for Israel,there should be copies we can see.Does that not show there's a big flaw in what you believe?

italo:

The work of God.

The Bible of Mohammed's time I exactly the same as the one I hold in my hand right now.

If you say it isnt, provide Mohammed's Bible. Let us compare.

Even your book is man made. You sound silly by claiming a book was written by a god.

macof:

lol its nt ur duty to decide wat is myth and lies, because there are so many lies u believe as truth

so how are you noot believing a lie?

macof:

bold is false

God doesnt do books

Says who?

ifeness:

Even your book is man made. You sound silly by claiming a book was written by a god.

You cant make a sensible conversation without resorting to insults.

italo:

As far as I know, the Bible of Mohammed's time has remained the same till date.

Actually, not really!

italo:
You may want to provide the evidence that it has been edited.

Mark 16:9-20
Serious doubts exist as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of the vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8 or its original ending has been lost. {From the NIV Bible footnote, Page 1528}

1 John 5:7-8
The most controvercial bible verse. Edited, Re-edited, Re-re-edited.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

Book of Matthew 9:9.
"And as Jesus passed forth thence, He (Jesus) saw a man named Matthew sitting at the receipts of custom, and He (Jesus) saith unto Him (Matthew), follow me and He (Matthew) arose and followed Him (Jesus)

Who wrote this and who was talking?

Now do you want to know the Original Bible?

Quran 5:59. Say
"O people of the scripture (Jews and the Christians) do you criticise us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah and in the revelation which has been sent down to us and in that which has been sent down before us. And that most of you are disobedients to Allah?

No one is a Muslim if He doesn't believe the Gospel of Jesus which is a word of God Almight. Allah said Muslims should believe Gospel of Jesus as a word of God, but Gospel of Jesus was not as voluminous as we are seeing it today.

Hadith was compiled in less than two centuries after the Death of Prophet Muhammed, and yet you know how the issue of hadith is. There is a strong, weak and false hadith.

Bible was compiled after 300 years of Jesus' ascension.
Jesus and His Apostles never heard about trinity let alone of preaching it.
There is a strong, weak and false Bible verse.

As long as i'm concerned, Quran is a witness over Hadiths as well as the Bible. Any Hadith that agree 100% with Quran is the truth and any Bible verses that agree 100% with the Quran is the truth.

harbiola1:
Actually, not really!



Mark 16:9-20
Serious doubts exist as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of the vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8 or its original ending has been lost. {From the NIV Bible footnote, Page 1528}

1 John 5:7-8
The most controvercial bible verse. Edited, Re-edited, Re-re-edited.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

Book of Matthew 9:9.
"And as Jesus passed forth thence, He (Jesus) saw a man named Matthew sitting at the receipts of custom, and He (Jesus) saith unto Him (Matthew), follow me and He (Matthew) arose and followed Him (Jesus)

Who wrote this and who was talking?

Now do you want to know the Original Bible?

Quran 5:59. Say
"O people of the scripture (Jews and the Christians) do you criticise us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah and in the revelation which has been sent down to us and in that which has been sent down before us. And that most of you are disobedients to Allah?

No one is a Muslim if He doesn't believe the Gospel of Jesus which is a word of God Almight. Allah said Muslims should believe Gospel of Jesus as a word of God, but Gospel of Jesus was not as voluminous as we are seeing it today.

Hadith was compiled in less than two centuries after the Death of Prophet Muhammed, and yet you know how the issue of hadith is. There is a strong, weak and false hadith.

Bible was compiled after 300 years of Jesus' ascension.
Jesus and His Apostles never heard about trinity let alone of preaching it.
There is a strong, weak and false Bible verse.

As long as i'm concerned, Quran is a witness over Hadiths as well as the Bible. Any Hadith that agree 100% with Quran is the truth and any Bible verses that agree 100% with the Quran is the truth.

Can anyone see what I'm seeing?

Muslims are brain dead. Extremely brain dead.

Italo asked you to prove the bible mohammed had is different from the bible he's holding only for you to come and say the bible was compiled 300 years after Jesus, cited some bible references and said the bible has been edited.

Mohammed was born roughly 700 years after Jesus existed. It is highly probable that the same bible you claim has been edited due to compilation after 300 years of Jesus existence was the same bible mohammed had. There is no reason whatsoever to suggest mohammed ever even saw or had access to the "so called original manuscripts".

So bro, italo question stands. Provide him with mohammeds bible and let's compare and contrast. Or prove with valid references that, within the 7th century and now, the bible has been edited and that it was the unedited bible mohammed had.


lol, even your brother slyle saw the task at hand and gently ran away. You could had done the same.

thorpido: If indeed you believe that God sent Jesus(and there is only One God as you say as muslims) and that the message of Jesus was from God,then as a muslim you should be able to provide the original message of Jesus since you say the one in the bible has been edited.How can you believe a 'prophet' without having anything to show as his doctrine?Even if you say His message was only for Israel,there should be copies we can see.Does that not show there's a big flaw in what you believe?

That is why we have the Quran that explains all doctrines given to all prophets. The Quran is the seal of books given to prophets

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men,
but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the
Prophets : and God has full knowledge of all
things. (The Noble Quran, 33:40) "

rationalmind:

Can anyone see what I'm seeing?

Muslims are brain dead. Extremely brain dead.

Italo asked you to prove the bible mohammed had is different from the bible he's holding only for you to come and say the bible was compiled 300 years after Jesus, cited some bible references and said the bible has been edited.

Mohammed was born roughly 700 years after Jesus existed. It is highly probable that the same bible you claim has been edited due to compilation after 300 years of Jesus existence was the same bible mohammed had. There is no reason whatsoever to suggest mohammed ever even saw or had access to the "so called original manuscripts".

So bro, italo question stands. Provide him with mohammeds bible and let's compare and contrast. Or prove with valid references that, within the 7th century and now, the bible has been edited and that it was the unedited bible mohammed had.


lol, even your brother slyle saw the task at hand and gently ran away. You could had done the same.

My brother i said no insults!
if you believe we re brain dead. Explain to us the reason why we have old and new testament and from who did the editing came from. if you can't answer that mind your talk of saying someone is brain dead!

slye:

That is why we have the Quran that explains all doctrines given to all prophets. The Quran is the seal of books given to prophets

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men,
but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the
Prophets : and God has full knowledge of all
things. (The Noble Quran, 33:40) "

Hogwash!What you wrote here doen't prove anything.IF Muhammed came after Jesus and says he's the last and seal of everything,what do you expect his doctrine to be?Common sense says his doctrine will make all other doctrines agree with his own.
Do you think he will tell you there's something different somewhere from his own?

The only proof you have is to get the ORIGINAL doctrines of Jesus Christ and let's see if it is different from the bible we have today.There should be an original somewhere,if not you are believing a lie.

My biggest question is why would someone who claims to be the last prophet and the seal of all prophets be unknown by other prophets and never spoken of by them in any holy book?
Please study well before you respond.Don't come and start quoting John 16 to me.Muhammed was not the Comforter!

They're many controversies labeled on many prophets which re meant to be an example to their pple in the Bible. prophets like Noah, Solomon,Aaron, Lot, Jacob, David. ...many like that
e.g" This were both the daughters of lot with child by their father" ( Gen 19:36 )aw can the Bible label these pple with such untrue accusations!

thorpido: Hogwash!What you wrote here doen't prove anything.IF Muhammed came after Jesus and says he's the last and seal of everything,what do you expect his doctrine to be?Common sense says his doctrine will make all other doctrines agree with his own.
Do you think he will tell you there's something different somewhere from his own?

The only proof you have is to get the ORIGINAL doctrines of Jesus Christ and let's see if it is different from the bible we have today.There should be an original somewhere,if not you are believing a lie.

My biggest question is why would someone who claims to be the last prophet and the seal of all prophets be unknown by other prophets and never spoken of by them in any holy book?
Please study well before you respond.Don't come and start quoting John 16 to me.Muhammed was not the Comforter!

if you look at my posts I've never used foul language against anyone here

So who is or was the comforter?

slye:
My brother i said no insults!
if you believe we re brain dead. Explain to us the reason why we have old and new testament and from who did the editing came from. if you can't answer that mind your talk of saying someone is brain dead!

What is this one saying? Answer italos question. Show us mohammeds bible is different from what we have now.

slye: They're many controversies labeled on many prophets which re meant to be an example to their pple in the Bible. prophets like Noah, Solomon,Aaron, Lot, Jacob, David. ...many like that
e.g" This were both the daughters of lot with child by their father" ( Gen 19:36 )aw can the Bible label these pple with such untrue accusations!

where are the true stories of those prophets?You can't just express your opinion about something without showing what the original was.
The quoran's stories are the stories of just one man.The bible was not that of just one man.
The bible says out of the mouth of two or more witnesses is a matter confirmed.

slye:
if you look at my posts I've never used foul language against anyone here

So who is or was the comforter?

Hehehehehe, laugh wan kill me. Muslims never cease to amaze me. On one hand they claim the bible has been edited, on another hand they attempt to use that same edited bible to prove mohammed was mentioned in it. What makes you feel the part that mentioned the comforter has not been edited.

Hehehe, anyway, let me leave your question for our christian brethen. That's if they even bother to dignify you with a response

John ( 17:21 ) "That they(disciples) all may be one; as thou, Father art in me, and I in thee, that they may also be one in us.. ..." it is clear here that God and Jesus re one, and that the disciples are one in Jesus and God. If Jesus is God because he is in God , why re the disciples not God too as they re like Jesus who is in God ?

harbiola1: Pls i will so much appreciate it if u can define christianity.

The life of God express in a man. Or divinity walking in humanity. Or the nature, image and righteousness of God manifest in a man that makes him a god.