LagosShia:

in other words,you cannot match your own challenge.

my like-mided poster did not assert anyone's name is mentioned in the Quran.you are the one who was "trigger-happy" to make that shot thinking you've got a tight hold of my like-mided poster.

my like-minded poster said the obvious: the Quran doesnt group all the sahaba into one group.there are the pious ones referred to and the hypocrites too,even though without specifying their individual names in the Quran.likewise,the Quran did not mention those who have elevated into the level of angels.next time think well before you think you can act smart.if there is anything "smart" about Islam,smartness is Shia in nature!!!

Hahahahahahahaaaa... let us put things in perspective. You are saying you do not think the 4 pious caliphs are grand abi? We will leave you to think whatever you want on that whilst we put a question mark on your comprehension skills.

However, to say anyone is a hypocrite is to say they are not Muslims and any serious Muslim has to take you up on it. Thankfully, Al-Baqir seems to have a list from the Qur'an according to him. We have to ask him to provide that list or simply keep quiet because the faith of a man would be impossible to determine beyond what he claims and does. Unless you want to tell us you are clairvoyant, we will need definitive proof.

maclatunji:

Hahahahahahahaaaa... let us put things in perspective. You are saying you do not think the 4 pious caliphs are grand abi? We will leave you to think whatever you want on that whilst we put a question mark on your comprehension skills.

However, to say anyone is a hypocrite is to say they are not Muslims and any serious Muslim has to take you up on it. Thankfully, Al-Baqir seems to have a list from the Qur'an according to him. We have to ask him to provide that list or simply keep quiet because the faith of a man would be impossible to determine beyond what he claims and does. Unless you want to tell us you are clairvoyant, we will need definitive proof.

i'd advice you to stop lying.Al-Baqir did not claim any list. you are dramatizing and running away from the truth.

in Islam,the Prophet and his Ahlul-Bayt (as) are a criteria for identifying imaan and exposing kufr and nifaaq.if you want to know a munafiqoon,identify those who oppressed and killed the Ahlul-Bayt (as).it doesnt need clairvoyance or rocket science.this is a reality you have been deprived of and you find yourself blinded even when you are aware of the torture and oppression the Ahlul-Bayt (as) endured in the hands of so called muslims right from day one when the Prophet (sa) passed away.another problem is you read clearly the instanced the Ahlul-Bayt (as) were oppressed from day one,but you turn a blind eye or you deny they took place.really i do not have any cure for this condition other than repeated admonition because i believe your own problem is not hypocrisy but lack of insight and the ability to understand.

lanrexlan: Sunni sources that made mention of the hypocrites were the saying related by Hudhaifah in Ibn Kathir and Sahih Muslim and no name were mentioned there.

my dear names are mentioned in sunni sources.i would not fall in this bait.if i even copy the hadiths,i risk being banned.i am sure you have an idea of the names of the hypocrites that wanted to assassinate the Prophet (sa).

Funny,let us have the names of those hypocrites.If they fall under the categories of the characteristics of hypocrites listed by the prophet(pbuh),then no problem.

was it Maclatunji that pushed you to ask us this question?

Nobody says these companions of the prophet(pbuh) were perfect.These people are humans just like everyone and there aren't infallible.

that is good enough and fair enough.if you can admit to that,then what is the problem? we just need to go deep to scrutinize our history and you will know that they being fallible certainly have dire meanings to see them for the true image they were.

When some of the sahabas ran away from the battle of Uhud,we know it's bad to do that and that's a sin but their Lord has forgiven them.Allah says in the glorious Quran in Surah Al-Imran 3:155 -Those of you who turned back on the day the two hosts met (i.e. the battle of Uhud),it was Shaitan (Satan) who caused them to backslide (run away from the battlefield) because of some (sins) they had earned.But Allah,indeed has forgiven them.Surely,Allah is Oft-Forgiving,Most Forbearing.If Allah(swt) has forgiven these people whom some Shias termed hypocrites because they ran away from the battlefield,then what's Shias problem with them?
The prophet(pbuh) gave the characteristics of an hypocrite,the question is does those whom Shia cursed fall under these categories listed by Muhammad(pbuh)?

we do not label them hypocrites because they ran away from the battlefield in that incident.the incident you are mentioning is just one of many more even after the "verse of forgiveness" you are using.

one thing is this:

Holy Quran 3:144
"Muhammad (SAW) is no more than a Messenger, and indeed (many) Messengers have passed away before him. If he dies or is killed, will you then turn back on your heels (as disbelievers)? And he who turns back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah, and Allah will give reward to those who are grateful."

clearly,the Quran has made it obvious that some sahaba on that day apostatized.we know the person who was first to run away in Uhud and "turn on his heels".if that person can fall into the "trap of shaitan" to turn to disbelief and abandon imaan once,then why do you find it impossible he did fall into disbelief on more occasions? or are you telling us: "once forgiven, never to sin again"?

My friend,Allah never ask you to curse the hypocrites.If Allah needs you do something he will reveal it in the Quran.When Allah needs the believers to send blessings on the prophet(pbuh),he revealed a verse for it[Surah Al-Ahzaab 33:56].
Allah doesn't ask you to curse the hypocrites,he ask the prophet(pbuh) to admonish them and speak words that will be effective on them.The curse of Allah is also on the disbelievers[Surah Al-Baqarah 2:89].Did Allah ask the prophet(pbuh)to curse them when inviting them to Islam? The prophet(pbuh) was even in deep grief over the disbelievers turning away from the Quran.He never gave up and I haven't find where the prophet(pbuh) cursed the hypocrites in Aqabah in that narration related by Ibn Kathir in his book.
Allah doesn't require you and any Shia to curse the hypocrites.These companions have worked their own way,if they were hypocrites then they will receive their due reward from Allah(swt) and Allah is never unjust to his slaves.

so does Allah (swt) ask you to send "blessing" upon the hypocrites? as i know of the Quran,we are asked to disassociate ourselves from the hypocrites and hypocrisy.right? sending "curse" (la'na) is one way of bara'a (disassociating oneself from them and expressing dislike for their acts).it doesnt at all mean if they were alive,we would not invite them to truth or reprimand them with the hope they repent.also the Prophet (sa) was told in the Quran that if he asks for them to be forgiven 70 times,they would not be forgiven.also we are not to join funeral prayers when they die.why?

the problem is in you using the blank term/title of sahaba.there were righteous companions we Shia are proud of and we honor.there were particular individuals among the sahaba we disagree on with you.it is worth making that clear.in that sense,you should use instead "some sahaba" instead of just "sahaba" when we are discussing them.

LagosShia:

my dear names are mentioned in sunni sources.i would not fall in this bait.if i even copy the hadiths,i risk being banned.i am sure you have an idea of the names of the hypocrites that wanted to assassinate the Prophet (sa).

Eww,lame excuse.Ibn Hazim said Walid Ibn Jumai mentioned the names but he failed to provide the source.

LagosShia:

was it Maclatunji that pushed you to ask us this question?

Why shining your teeth? I've been asking the question since,check my posts.

LagosShia: that is good enough and fair enough.if you can admit to that,then what is the problem? we just need to go deep to scrutinize our history and you will know that they being fallible certainly have dire meanings to see them for the true image they were

I never denied that since,his companions are humans and they fall short.

LagosShia: we do not label them hypocrites because they ran away from the battlefield in that incident.the incident you are mentioning is just one of many more even after the "verse of forgiveness" you are using.

one thing is this:

Holy Quran 3:14 ''Muhammad (SAW) is no more than a Messenger,and indeed (many) Messengers have passed away before him.If he dies or is killed,will you then turn back on your heels (as disbelievers)? And he who turns back on his heels,not the least harm will he do to Allah,and Allah will give reward to those who are grateful."

clearly,the Quran has made it obvious that some sahaba on that day apostatized.we know the person who was first to run away in Uhud and "turn on his heels".if that person can fall into the "trap of shaitan" to turn to disbelief and abandon imaan once

You are still talking about the same battle of Uhud,I repeat those that turned their heels in the battle of Uhud has been forgiven.We know some arabs turned apostate after the death of the prophet(pbuh) and those are the people that the verse of the Quran you quoted
[Surah Al-Imran 3:144] is talking about.Read this
Narrated Abu Huraira:When the Prophet(pbuh) died and Abu Bakr became his successor and some of the Arabs reverted to disbelief,'Umar said, "O Abu Bakr! How can you fight these people although Allah's Apostle said,'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say:'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,'and whoever said,'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah',Allah will save his property and his life from me,unless (he does something for which he receives legal punishment) justly,and his account will be with Allah?' "Abu Bakr said, "By Allah! I will fight whoever differentiates between prayers and Zakat as Zakat is the right to be taken from property (according to Allah's Orders).
By Allah! If they refused to pay me even a kid they used to pay to Allah's Apostle,I would fight with them for withholding it." Umar said,"By Allah:It was nothing,but I noticed that Allah opened Abu Bakr's chest towards the decision to fight,therefore I realized that his decision was right[Sahih Al-Bukhari Book 58,Hadith Number 59].These were those people that verse was pointing to,are they among those whom you have in mind??

LagosShia: then why do you find it impossible he did fall into disbelief on more occasions? or are you telling us: "once forgiven,never to sin again"?

Provide evidences please,what deed is greater than running away from the battlefield that can make a person falls into disbelief? Just curious.

LagosShia: so does Allah (swt) ask you to send "blessing" upon the hypocrites? as i know of the Quran,we are asked to disassociate ourselves from the hypocrites and hypocrisy.right? sending "curse" (la'na) is one way of bara'a (disassociating oneself from them and expressing dislike for their acts).it doesnt at all mean if they were alive,we would not invite them to truth or reprimand them with the hope they repent.also the Prophet (sa) was told in the Quran that if he asks for them to be forgiven 70 times,they would not be forgiven.also we are not to join funeral prayers when they die.why?

Does Allah ask you to curse the hypocrites? If they are alive,admonish them and if they are dead their reward is with Allah(swt).
The prophet (pbuh) forbade us when he said;Do not curse the dead;they will get it for what they had done (in this life).

Reported by Abud-Darda’ (RA):The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said:When a person curses somebody or something,the curse goes up to heaven and the gates of heaven get closed.Then it comes down to the earth and its gates get closed.Then it turns right and left,and if it does not find an entrance to go anywhere,it returns to the person or thing that was cursed;if he or it deserves to be cursed;otherwise it returns to the person who uttered it.[Abu Dawud].I hate hypocrites as much as you do but that doesn't mean I should curse them.

LagosShia: the problem is in you using the blank term/title of sahaba.there were righteous companions we Shia are proud of and we honor.there were particular individuals among the sahaba we disagree on with you.it is worth making that clear.in that sense,you should use instead "some sahaba" instead of just "sahaba" when we are discussing them.

I think we draw curtains on this,keep to your belief and let me keep to mine.

lanrexlan: Eww,lame excuse.Ibn Hazim said Walid Ibn Jumai mentioned the names but he failed to provide the source.

first it was the reliability of Walid Ibn Jumai.the same person that is relied on in your "Sahihain" (by Bukhari and Muslim).now the issue is he did not provide the source.

WHAT SOURCE ARE YOU REFERRING TO?

this is what Ibn Hazim said,and it has to do with the reliability of Walid Ibn Jumai:

Ibn Hazim:

"Hudhaifah's hadeeth is false, because it is narrated through Walid ibn Jumai – he is unreliable – it seems he does not know who fabricated the hadeeth, because he narrated many reports in which state that Aboo Bakr, Umar, Uthmaan, Talha and Sa’d ibn Abi Waqas, attempted to murder the Holy Prophet (saw) by pushing him over from Al-Uqbah during Tabuk. This is a fabricated lie!"

Source: Al-Muhalla. Vol. 11, Pg. # 224.

THE BELOW HADITH IN WHICH WALID IBN JUMAI REPORTS APPEARS IN YOUR 'ALMIGHTY SAHIH MUSLIM' :

Narrated Zuhair ibn Harb narrated Aboo Ahmad Al-Kufi narrated Al-Walid ibn Jumai from Aboo Tufail (r.a) reported that there was a dispute between Hudhaifah and one from the people of Uqbah as it happens amongst people. He said: I adjure you by Allah (swt) to tell me as to how many people from Uqbah there were. The people said to him (Hudhaifah) to inform him as he had asked. We have been informed that there were fourteen and If you are to be counted amongst them, then there would be fifteen and I state by Allah (swt), that twelve among them were the enemies of Allah (swt) and of His Messenger (saw) in this world and on the day in which witnesses are called out. The rest of the three put forward this excuse: 'We did not hear the announcement of Allah's Messenger (saw) and we were not aware of the intention of the people as he (the Holy Prophet) had been in the hot atmosphere. He (the Holy Prophet) then said: The water is small in quantity (at the next station). So nobody should go ahead of me, but he found people who had gone ahead of him and he cursed them on that day.

Source: Saheeh Muslim. Pg. # 1282, H # 2879.
I never denied that since,his companions are humans and they fall short.

WHO WAS WALID IBN JUMAI:

Ibn Sa'd Attestation Of Walid Ibn Jumai

Al-Walid ibn Abdullah ibn Jumai Al-Khuzahi is one of them (the fourth generation), he is Thiqah (Trustworthy) and he has (many) Hadeeth.

Source: Al-Tabaqat Al-Kabir. Vol. 8, Pg. # 473.

Ibn Hibban mentioned him in his book 'Al-Thuqat' (i.e. "the trustworthy" ).

Abdullah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal narrates from his father and Aboo Dawood: 'There is no discussion about him', (meaning no objection).

Why shining your teeth? I've been asking the question since,check my posts.

check their names by yourself:
http://www.revisitingthesalaf.org/2012/02/companions-attempt-to-kill-prophet.html?m=1

I never denied that since,his companions are humans and they fall short.

can you cite examples to back up the above? thanks.

You are still talking about the same battle of Uhud,I repeat those that turned their heels in the battle of Uhud has been forgiven.We know some arabs turned apostate after the death of the prophet(pbuh) and those are the people that the verse of the Quran you quoted
[Surah Al-Imran 3:144] is talking about.Read this
Narrated Abu Huraira:When the Prophet(pbuh) died and Abu Bakr became his successor and some of the Arabs reverted to disbelief,'Umar said, "O Abu Bakr! How can you fight these people although Allah's Apostle said,'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say:'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,'and whoever said,'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah',Allah will save his property and his life from me,unless (he does something for which he receives legal punishment) justly,and his account will be with Allah?' "Abu Bakr said, "By Allah! I will fight whoever differentiates between prayers and Zakat as Zakat is the right to be taken from property (according to Allah's Orders).
By Allah! If they refused to pay me even a kid they used to pay to Allah's Apostle,I would fight with them for withholding it." Umar said,"By Allah:It was nothing,but I noticed that Allah opened Abu Bakr's chest towards the decision to fight,therefore I realized that his decision was right[Sahih Al-Bukhari Book 58,Hadith Number 59].These were those people that verse was pointing to,are they among those whom you have in mind??

no sir.

verse 3:144 refers to Umar running away from the battle of uhud and "turning back on his heels".

the ridda wars fought by abu bakr for zakat against those who refused his rule have nothing to do with this verse.

you said i am talking about the same battle of uhud where they "turned their heels".so you accept it is a verse about some sahaba who "turned on their heels" in lifetime of the Prophet (sa).then by your own (mis)interpretation you want to apply verse 3:144 on those believers who were butchered by Khalid Ibn al-Walid at Abu bakr's order because they refused to pay him zakat and considered Abu Bakr's rule as illegitimate.prominent among those killed was the companion Malik Ibn Nuweira (RA) who was a muslim among the people of yemen and he maintained he would not pay Abu bakr any zakat.

what Abu bakr was fighting for was for zakat and not for salat or the faith of Islam.so do not use your confusion to misapply Quranic verses.make up your mind as to what verse 3:144 is referring to.

Provide evidences please,what deed is greater than running away from the battlefield that can make a person falls into disbelief? Just curious.

check the Hadith of Pen and Paper.you will read about what deed is more heinous than running away from the battlefield.that deed is insulting and disobeying the Prophet (sa) while he was on his deathbed and calling him "delirious".

Does Allah ask you to curse the hypocrites? If they are alive,admonish them and if they are dead their reward is with Allah(swt).
The prophet (pbuh) forbade us when he said;Do not curse the dead;they will get it for what they had done (in this life).

Reported by Abud-Darda’ (RA):The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said:When a person curses somebody or something,the curse goes up to heaven and the gates of heaven get closed.Then it comes down to the earth and its gates get closed.Then it turns right and left,and if it does not find an entrance to go anywhere,it returns to the person or thing that was cursed;if he or it deserves to be cursed;otherwise it returns to the person who uttered it.[Abu Dawud].I hate hypocrites as much as you do but that doesn't mean I should curse them.

The Quran, chapter 3 (Aale Imran), verse 86 to 87:
"How shall Allah guide a person who disbelieved after their believing and (after) they had borne witness that the Messenger was true and clear arguments had come to them; and Allah does not guide the unjust people. (As for) these, their reward is that upon them is [size=18pt]the curse of Allah and the angels and of men,[/size] all together.

The Quran, chapter 3 (Aale Imran), verse 61:
"But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and ourselves and yourselves, then let us be earnest in prayer, [size=18pt]and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars[/size][size=8pt][/size].

I think we draw curtains on this,keep to your belief and let me keep to mine.

do not be afraid.it is not by force to adhere to my beliefs.but while you maintain yours,do not abuse the Quran and Sunnah and use confusion to claim what has no basis in Islam.

there is really no need for us to waste time going through arguments and counterarguments on the attempted assasination of the Prophet (sa).the facts and arguments and counterarguments have been treated here:
http://www.revisitingthesalaf.org/2012/02/companions-attempt-to-kill-prophet.html?m=1

you can either choose whatever position you want.

lanrexlan:

I never denied that since,his companions are humans and they fall short.



You are still talking about the same battle of Uhud,I repeat those that turned their heels in the battle of Uhud has been forgiven.We know some arabs turned apostate after the death of the prophet(pbuh) and those are the people that the verse of the Quran you quoted

.

Just For Clarification!

Brother, note: the battle of Uhud you talked about took place in the 2nd year of Hijrah. There were plenty of room for deserters to amend.

1. Alas! At the battle of Hunayn (8A.H), muslim contingent was even more and powerful yet many of these deserters turned back retreating (Qur'an 9: 25).

Abu Qutadah, who was among the deserters of Hunayan reported: "The muslims flew! I too flew with them. Suddenly I noticed 'Umar Ibn al-khattab among the deserters I asked him 'what has happened to the people?' He replied, 'It is Allah's wish"
~Sahih al-Bukhari vol.3 p.45

2. Conquest of Khaybar (7A.H).
If I dare elaborate on this according to your prestigious books, then I will have to risk been ban for days. So kindly read.

Lastly, how on earth can you interpret verse of "turning upon their heel", an event of uhud (2nd year of Hijrah) with the event of Zakat that happens after the demise of the prophet (saws) i.e 9years after, during the khilafa of Abu Bakar?

Kindly settle your heart and mind. Start a thorough research about Islam. Everybody seem to be contended with his creed and try his utmost to defend it. Its natural but its not being sincere.

You were born into sunnism (never denial being a sunni because practically and ideologically you are) by virtue of your parent and society likewise those born in Shi'a or christian majority area. The onus now lies with us to investigate and research thoroughly and sincerely after being aware of other creed and faith. No excuse with Allah!


Concerning Walid Ibn Jumai!
Imagine a single source of Ibn Hazim claimed walid ibn Jumai was unreliable whereas prominent scholars before and after Ibn Hazim confirmed him a reliable source. The same ahlu sunnah.

How many hadith had Nasirudeen Albanni claimed to be fabricated or weak just because such hadith are contrary to his creed?

Allah is ever ready to guide every heart aright provided we are sincere.

LagosShia: check their names by yourself:
http://www.revisitingthesalaf.org/2012/02/companions-attempt-to-kill-prophet.html?m=1

No need if you can't list them.
No authentic source for the names was given.

LagosShia: can you cite examples to back up the above? thanks.

The companions of the prophet(pbuh) aren't infallible and I've already said that.

lanrexlan: Nobody says these companions of the prophet(pbuh) were perfect.These people are humans just like everyone and there aren't infallible.

LagosShia: no sir.

verse 3:144 refers to Umar running away from the battle of uhud and "turning back on his heels".

No sir,the verse of Surah Al-Imran 3:155 refers to the people that ran away from the battle of Uhud.Verse 144 can both refer to during the time of the prophet(pbuh)and after his demise.

Those that ran away from the battle of Uhud didn't become disbelievers because Allah forgave them but those that turn back their heels from Islam and become apostate after the death of the prophet(pbuh) became disbelievers and that's why Allah says in verse 144 of Surah Al-Imran that If the prophet(pbuh) die,will they turn back and become disbelievers? and that took effect when some arabs revert to disbelief after the prophet(pbuh)'s demise.

LagosShia: the ridda wars fought by abu bakr for zakat against those who refused his rule have nothing to do with this verse.

you said i am talking about the same battle of uhud where they "turned their heels".so you accept it is a verse about some sahaba who "turned on their heels" in lifetime of the Prophet (sa).then by your own (mis)interpretation you want to apply verse 3:144 on those believers who were butchered by Khalid Ibn al-Walid at Abu bakr's order because they refused to pay him zakat and considered Abu Bakr's rule as illegitimate.prominent among those killed was the companion Malik Ibn Nuweira (RA) who was a muslim among the people of yemen and he maintained he would not pay Abu bakr any zakat.

what Abu bakr was fighting for was for zakat and not for salat or the faith of Islam.so do not use your confusion to misapply Quranic verses.make up your mind as to what verse 3:144 is referring to.

I'm not mis-applying anything,read what I wrote up there.

LagosShia: check the Hadith of Pen and Paper.you will read about what deed is more heinous than running away from the battlefield.that deed is insulting and disobeying the Prophet (sa) while he was on his deathbed and calling him "delirious".

It was not a matter of disobedience but rather it was Umar's independent reasoning in that situation.He may have thought about Surah Al-Maidah 5:3 and thinks we need nothing again.

LagosShia: The Quran, chapter 3 (Aale Imran),verse 86 to 87:
"How shall Allah guide a person who disbelieved after their believing and (after) they had borne witness that the Messenger was true and clear arguments had come to them;and Allah does not guide the unjust people.(As for) these,their reward is that upon them is [size=18pt]the curse of Allah and the angels and of men,[/size] all together.

Please
,don't let us quote verses that has nothing to do with the issue on ground.
It has been reiterated in this verse that the Jewish scholars,who lived in Arabia at the time of the Prophet(pbuh) had understood clearly and borne witness to it that he was a true Prophet of God and that his teachings were the same as those of the former Prophets.
But in spite of this,they not only rejected but also opposed him because of their centuries-old prejudices,obduracy and antagonism to the Truth.
This is what this verse is talking about,the Jewish scholars who disbelieved after believing in the prophethood of Muhammad(pbuh).Has nothing to do with the people we are talking about.

LagosShia: The Quran, chapter 3 (Aale Imran),verse 61:
"But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge,then say:Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and ourselves and yourselves, then let us be earnest in prayer, [size=18pt]and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars[/size][size=8pt][/size]

Why this again? This verse was talking about the people of the book that dispute with the prophet(pbuh) concerning Isa(pbuh).Kindly read verses 45-60 of this Surah and verse 62 for a clearer view.

Dispute with the prophet(pbuh) in this matter.Which matter? The true narrative story of Isa(pbuh).Don't try to use wrong verses to justify your claim please.

LagosShia: do not be afraid.it is not by force to adhere to my beliefs.but while you maintain yours,do not abuse the Quran and Sunnah and use confusion to claim what has no basis in Islam.

there is really no need for us to waste time going through arguments and counterarguments on the attempted assasination of the Prophet (sa).the facts and arguments and counterarguments have been treated here:
http://www.revisitingthesalaf.org/2012/02/companions-attempt-to-kill-prophet.html?m=1

you can either choose whatever position you want.

Afraid of what? You? Or afraid to become a Shia like you? I am not afraid of anything or anybody.Which confusion did I create here? As you said,there's no need arguing.Adhere to your belief and let me adhere to mine.
May Allah(swt) guide us all.
Peace

Al-Baqir:
Just For Clarification!

Brother,note:the battle of Uhud you talked about took place in the 2nd year of Hijrah. There were plenty of room for deserters to amend.

I know that,they were forgiven.

Al-Baqir:
1. Alas! At the battle of Hunayn (8A.H),muslim contingent was even more and powerful yet many of these deserters turned back retreating (Qur'an 9:25).

Abu Qutadah,who was among the deserters of Hunayan reported:The muslims flew! I too flew with them. Suddenly I noticed 'Umar Ibn al-khattab among the deserters I asked him 'what has happened to the people?' He replied, 'It is Allah's wish"
~Sahih al-Bukhari vol.3 p.45

Note the bold.If we were to have that same mentality against Ali ibn abi Talib(ra),should we also say that Ali (ra) is also a Kaffir for running away because Abu Qatada clearly says in the Hadith:The Muslims Retreated” and in another version he says “And the Muslims were Defeated and I was Defeated with them,can we also use the exact same logic as the you Shias use and accuse Ali(ra) instead of ‘Umar(ra)?? Be sincere.The Hadith I am reading here says Abu Qatada followed Umar(ra) and not Umar fled.The same way Ali(ra) didn't flee nor Abu Bakr(ra).We read
Ya’qoub narrated from his Father from Ibn Ishaq from Assim Ibn Umar bin Qatada from Abdul-Rahman Ibn Jabir from Jabir ibn ‘Abdullah:The people retreated(on the day of hunain) but the Prophet(pbuh) was accompanied by a group from the Mouhajirun and the Ansar and his Ahlul-Bayt,Those who held their ground and stayed with him were ABU BAKR AND UMAR and from his Ahlul-Bayt Ali ibn abi Talib and Al-Abbas bin Abdul-Mutallib and his son Al-Fadl and Abu Suffiyan bin al-Harith and Raba’iyah bin al-Harith and Ayman bin ‘Ubeid and he is ibn Umm-Ayman and Usamah ibn Zaid, he said: and a Man from Hawzan
[Musnad Ahmad,Volume 23,Page Number 274,Hadith Number 14731]

Umar (ra)didn't only fight and stood by the prophet(pbuh),he also received two female captives from the battle of Hunain.
Narrated Nafi:Umar bin Al-Khattab said:O Allah’s Apostle! I vowed to observe Itikaf for one day during the Pre-lslamic period.
The Prophet(pbuh) ordered him to fulfill his vow.Umar gained two lady captives from the war prisoners of hunain and he left them in some of the houses at Mecca.
When Allah’s Apostle freed the captives of hunain without ransom,they came out-walking in the streets.Umar said (to his son),O Abdullah! See what is the matter.‘Abdullah replied,“Allah’s Apostle has freed the captives without ransom.”
He said (to him),Go and set free those two slave girls.[Sahih Al-Bukhari,Book 53, Hadith Number 372]
I can go on and on to provide proofs that Umar(ra) didn't flee from the battle of Hunain.

Al-Baqir:
2.Conquest of Khaybar (7A.H).
If I dare elaborate on this according to your prestigious books,then I will have to risk been ban for days.So kindly read.

No need elaborating.I am not in the mood arguing again because it will make no difference.

Al-Baqir:
Lastly,how on earth can you interpret verse of "turning upon their heel",an event of uhud (2nd year of Hijrah) with the event of Zakat that happens after the demise of the prophet (saws) i.e 9years after,during the khilafa of Abu Bakar?

People that turned back from the battle of Uhud didn't become disbelievers and they were forgiven by Allah.No record that people that people turned back their heels(became disbelievers) in the battle of Uhud because the prophet(pbuh) didn't die.But when the prophet(pbuh) died,some arabs revert to disbelief and that's why I relate that verse of Surah Al-Imran 3:144 to it.

Al-Baqir:
Kindly settle your heart and mind.Start a thorough research about Islam.Everybody seem to be contended with his creed and try his utmost to defend it.Its natural but its not being sincere.

You were born into sunnism (never denial being a sunni because practically and ideologically you are) by virtue of your parent and society likewise those born in Shi'a or christian majority area.The onus now lies with us to investigate and research thoroughly and sincerely after being aware of other creed and faith.No excuse with Allah!

Yeah,we are all truth seeker.Allah told us to seek increase in knowledge and search for the truth.My decision isn't your decision and I am innocent of what you do and you are innocent of mine.

Al-Baqir:
Concerning Walid Ibn Jumai!
Imagine a single source of Ibn Hazim claimed walid ibn Jumai was unreliable whereas prominent scholars before and after Ibn Hazim confirmed him a reliable source.The same ahlu sunnah.

How many hadith had Nasirudeen Albanni claimed to be fabricated or weak just because such hadith are contrary to his creed?

Allah is ever ready to guide every heart aright provided we are sincere.

Ibn Hazim said Walid Ibn Jumai was unreliable,but other scholars praised him as a truthful man.The question still remains,nowhere in that your link does it gives the source for the names of the hypocrites.No need arguing further,may Allah(swt) guides us all.
Peace.

@LagosShia and Al-Baqir,these companions have worked their own way.They were among the foremost people to accept Islam
Narrated Abu Said:The Prophet(pbuh) said:Do not abuse my companions for if any one of you spent gold equal to Uhud (in Allah's Cause) it would not be equal to a Mud or even a half Mud spent by one of them.[Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 5,Book 57,Hadith Number 22].We know what these companions spent during the expedition of Tabuk in the path of Allah.
The Quran says muslims shouldn't pray Janazah at the hypocrites burial,didn't muslims pray Janazah at these companions' burial? I am not forcing anything on you,just let us work our own ways and stop criticizing.
I don't expect a reply because I won't reply again.Assalam alaikum

^

Mr. Man,i dont really know who you are contending with.i wouldnt waste my time further.you said we are not allowed to "curse" (i.e. to send la'nah).i brought out verses from the Quran in which Allah (swt),Angels,Mankind and the Prophet (sa) engage in the act of sending la'na.

you misapplied verse 3:144 to refer to the war abu bakr fought to force people to hand him their wealth.i pointed about the context of verse 3:144 during the lifetime of the Prophet (sa).

no matter what Umar does,you will create excuses for him.your hadiths already give him many merits even to the extent of making him surpass the Prophet (sa) in several instances.if "independent thinking" can make a Muslim on several occasions to doubt,disobey and insult the Prophet (sa),then why dont we vindicate the christians by saying they are also applying "independent thinking"? indeed "independent thinking" can put one outside the bounds of Islam.the point in citing verse 3:144 is to make it clear that "almighty" Umar can err,go astray and also turn into disbelief.not all the instances may be recorded in the Quran,but one is sufficient enough for you to see that he can deviate.you should stop making him appear infallible.and if going by your words you do admit he wasnt infallible,then why dont you examine the incidents and call a spade a spade?

lanrexlan: @LagosShia and Al-Baqir,these companions have worked their own way.They were among the foremost people to accept Islam
Narrated Abu Said:The Prophet(pbuh) said:Do not abuse my companions for if any one of you spent gold equal to Uhud (in Allah's Cause) it would not be equal to a Mud or even a half Mud spent by one of them.[Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 5,Book 57,Hadith Number 22].We know what these companions spent during the expedition of Tabuk in the path of Allah.
The Quran says muslims shouldn't pray Janazah at the hypocrites burial,didn't muslims pray Janazah at these companions' burial? I am not forcing anything on you,just let us work our own ways and stop criticizing.
I don't expect a reply because I won't reply again.Assalam alaikum

brother you are contradicting yourself in more than one place.it is not a battle we are fighting against you.we are sharing ideas.we believe that out of the centuries of oppression and persecution the Shia were handed,the truth didnt spread to all Muslims.

we are not abusing anyone.we are just stating things as they happened,a reality your fellows have been deprived of and have been programmed to live in and accept denial.

^
But this thread shows shiis cannot even tolerated each other and get locked up in prusons for sharing "ideas". The unlucky ones like montazarri get to live under house arrest for the rest of their life >> he eventually died under house rest>>> under the instructions of mr
Khomini. More pathetic is that non of shiis could refute the op, rather all they resorted in doing is to dribble all over the place.

Dring a class of Imaam Maalik, it was mentioned that the Raafidite Shi`ites curse the Sahaabah. In reply, he quoted the Quranic verse, "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and those with him are harsh with the disbelievers and gentle among themselves. So that the disbelievers may become enraged with them." He then said, "Whoever becomes enraged when the Sahaabah are mentioned is one about whom the verse speaks.

lanrexlan: @LagosShia and Al-Baqir,these companions have worked their own way.They were among the foremost people to accept Islam
[color=#990000]Narrated Abu Said:The Prophet(pbuh) said:Do not abuse my companions for if any one of you spent gold equal to Uhud (in Allah's Cause) it would not be equal to a Mud or even a half Mud spent by one of them.[Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 5,Book 57,Hadith Number 22]

Its better you give a sensible definition of Sahabi before applying that hadith to every tom, dick and harry! Here's the prophet for you so that you will note that he (saws) does not meant ALL his sahaba in the above hadith:

"On the day of resurrection you will be grabbed from the left, and I will say: 'where are they (being taken) to?' It will be said: "To Hell, by God. ' I will say: "my Lord! These are my companions'. It will be said: 'You do not know what they did after you. From the time you left them they never ceased to apostatize. ' I will say: 'Away with him, away with him, woe to him who changed things after me. And I do not see anyone of them being saved except that he will be like a forlorn sheep".

(Sahih al-Bukhari vol. 7 p. 209, vol 4 p. 94, 156; Muslim vol. 7 p. 66).

vedaxcool: ^
But this thread shows shiis cannot even tolerated each other and get locked up in prusons for sharing "ideas". The unlucky ones like montazarri get to live under house arrest for the rest of their life >> he eventually died under house rest>>> under the instructions of mr
Khomini. More pathetic is that non of shiis could refute the op, rather all they resorted in doing is to dribble all over the place.

Vedaxcool,
Before you accuse, always try to review lest you will make mockery of yourself.

The OP's argument is simply about the core of Shi'a belief i.e al-Wilayah of Imam Ali (a.s)! And the whole gist is using Imam's letter to Mu'awiyah against the belief itself.

It doesn't work brother! I have given you the whole letter in a more clear simple English with photo-page of Nahj al-Balagha with commentary.

Before this, an option has been given to you both by LagosShia and myself to let us explore the concept of Wilayah/Imama in the Qur'an, Sunni Tafsi and Tarikh. Smart guy! You ran away in a jiffy.

However the more your MacLatunji and Lanrexlan tried to derail the ops, the more I tried to remind them to go back to the main topic. So do not accuse if you close your eyes from reading previous comments.

lanrexlan: I know that,they were forgiven.


Note the bold.If we were to have that same mentality against Ali ibn abi Talib(ra),should we also say that Ali (ra) is also a Kaffir for running away because Abu Qatada clearly says in the Hadith:The Muslims Retreated” and in another version he says “And the Muslims were Defeated and I was Defeated with them,can we also use the exact same logic as the you Shias use and accuse Ali(ra) instead of ‘Umar(ra)?? Be sincere.The Hadith I am reading here says Abu Qatada followed Umar(ra) and not Umar fled.The same way Ali(ra) didn't flee nor Abu Bakr(ra).We read
Ya’qoub narrated from his Father from Ibn Ishaq from Assim Ibn Umar bin Qatada from Abdul-Rahman Ibn Jabir from Jabir ibn ‘Abdullah:The people retreated(on the day of hunain) but the Prophet(pbuh) was accompanied by a group from the Mouhajirun and the Ansar and his Ahlul-Bayt,Those who held their ground and stayed with him were ABU BAKR AND UMAR and from his Ahlul-Bayt Ali ibn abi Talib and Al-Abbas bin Abdul-Mutallib and his son Al-Fadl and Abu Suffiyan bin al-Harith and Raba’iyah bin al-Harith and Ayman bin ‘Ubeid and he is ibn Umm-Ayman and Usamah ibn Zaid, he said: and a Man from Hawzan
[Musnad Ahmad,Volume 23,Page Number 274,Hadith Number 14731]

Umar (ra)didn't only fight and stood by the prophet(pbuh),he also received two female captives from the battle of Hunain.
Narrated Nafi:Umar bin Al-Khattab said:O Allah’s Apostle! I vowed to observe Itikaf for one day during the Pre-lslamic period.
The Prophet(pbuh) ordered him to fulfill his vow.Umar gained two lady captives from the war prisoners of hunain and he left them in some of the houses at Mecca.
When Allah’s Apostle freed the captives of hunain without ransom,they came out-walking in the streets.Umar said (to his son),O Abdullah! See what is the matter.‘Abdullah replied,“Allah’s Apostle has freed the captives without ransom.”
He said (to him),Go and set free those two slave girls.[Sahih Al-Bukhari,Book 53, Hadith Number 372]
I can go on and on to provide proofs that Umar(ra) didn't flee from the battle of Hunain.

Dear Lanrexlan,
You see there are some issues logic doesn't work with. I want to believe you are an Islamic student like I am. My advice is Pls Read then you will know there was Nobody like Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s) in defending the Prophet and Islam. Ali's logo is "No retreat No surrender".

Being "anfus (SELF) of the prophet (Qur'an), he was EVER ready to die for the prophet.

NB: Observe the hikmah of the Qur'an. The verse where Allah refer to Ali (a.s) as "ANFUS (self)" of the prophet (saws) was revealed a year to the demise of the prophet. To Allah its work first before merit. That was how He does for Ibrahim (a.s) and many other prophets.

1. While other muslims migrated to Madina, only Ali was the prophet left to sleep on his bed. Here Allah refer him as "he who sell his soul":
www.nairaland.com/1537891/one-sells-himself-prophet

1. At battle of Badr's single combat, Ali was barely 17years. He alongside 3 male from Banu Hashim: Hazrat Hamza, Abbas et al gave Islam victory.

2. At Uhud still very young, when all muslims ran away, only 12 remain. Four shielded the prophet (saws): Ali was infront of the wounded prophet defending like a wounded lion. In fact his nickname was "Lion of Allah".
Tarikh al-Tabari, Tarikh al-kamil and many others recorded Uthman ran away and came back to the prophet after 3days. Umar, after 2days. Abu Bakar who reported this said he came back to the prophet after several hours.

3. At Khandaq, just a single combat and the battle ended in a victory for Islam.
Amr ibn Abd Wudd came out boasting: "Muhammad promised you paradise; either he or one of his follower should come out and let me send him to that tale paradise"

The holy prophet (saws) turned to generality of Muslim: "who will silence and shame this dog?" Nobody came out except Ali. Prophet asked him to go back. He (saws) asked again and again. Nobody except Ali came out. He was a victor against Amr.

4. Battle of Khaybar
Abu Bakar was sent the first time, he was defeated and retreat. Umar met similar fate!
Thereupon the holy prophet (saws) said: "Tomorrow I will send a man who love God and His prophet; and in turn God and His prophet loves him. He will never turn back except he achieve victory"
Ali was given the standard bearer the following day. He went, he saw and he conquer.

5. Etc, etc, etc.

Note1: All the so-called hadith you present never support your client bro. Here's Abu Qatadah reporting that Umar was among the deserters along with him yet you are still looking for excuses.

In fact tell just A SINGLE combat anyone of your client EVER partook in? With who and in which battle and by Allah I will drop this argument!

Note2: dear, Ability to read a single event through many reports is a process of uncovering the truth.
You see the Ulama of Tafsir, Tarikh and hadith were human being not angel. Meaning they have personal interest in relating issues. Some cover many events, some abridge events, some explain in details, some deliberately mixed up unconnected event so that people will not see the reality of certain individual and events. Thereby, if you read for example, Tabaqat Ibn saad, its better you read others and explore their ideas.

Further reading on the hadith of pen and paper:
https://m.facebook.com/notes/olawale-abdulwasi/cold-truth-about-umar-ibn-al-khattab/728870903809392/?refid=17

Al-Baqir:


Vedaxcool,
Before you accuse, always try to review lest you will make mockery of yourself.

The OP's argument is simply about the core of Shi'a belief i.e al-Wilayah of Imam Ali (a.s)! And the whole gist is using Imam's letter to Mu'awiyah against the belief itself.

It doesn't work brother! I have given you the whole letter in a more clear simple English with photo-page of Nahj al-Balagha with commentary.

Before this, an option has been given to you both by LagosShia and myself to let us explore the concept of Wilayah/Imama in the Qur'an, Sunni Tafsi and Tarikh. Smart guy! You ran away in a jiffy.

However the more your MacLatunji and Lanrexlan tried to derail the ops, the more I tried to remind them to go back to the main topic. So do not accuse if you close your eyes from reading previous comments.

A long tale designed to evade the op, if only u applied the same effort in refuting the op points written by a shii. whatever point u dreamt u made has been responded to!