@littleb,

Thank you for taking the time to make some notes in what you assumed to be quite disturbing to you. However, I would have hoped that you did some search through the Religion motherboard to see where we have dicussed the same untennable issues that you are recycling here and see that you haven't added anything to clear your case.

What is amazing is the fact that Muslims who are often so dissatisfied with Islam deliberately come over to the Christian section to trump up ridiculous claims in the hope that nobody will notice the duplicity therein. I wasn't keen on paying any attention to the recent attitude demonstrated by Olabowale in this regard: but I expected that after I had deflated his false claims, the entire sections would either be deleted or the thread will suddenly disappear! The former is what has happened - and that is what disgusts me about discussing with Muslims.

It is okay around the world for Muslims to be restless about Islam and seek to misrepresent the Biblical faiths. . . but as soon as answers are provided to counter such misrepresentations, the threads suddenly vanish without a trace! This is what has happened with the fallacy of Olabowale claiming that Muslims never refer to Muhammad as "Lord" of any kind! As soon as evidence is given to the contrary, it didn't surprise me that the entire section went missing. Should anyone be asking what is happening?

Anyhow, littleb, nothing in your replies are surprising to me - and it won't take me very long to dispell your myths and set you straight. But there again, I expect that after I've replied your misgivings, my replies would once again be deleted! Such a panic reaction is very understandable - it only confirms that being a Christian is the best choice I ever made in life. . . because Christians are never at any time concerned with that kind of attitude.

Thank you once again, but I urge you to demonstrate an attitude of sincerity before engaging pilgrim.1 in discussions.

@littleb,

Even if my replies will once again be deleted, I'll take a few lines from yours and offer answers to clear your misconceptions.

littleb:

This is a white lie. There is no single verse in the Quran ref a Gospel according Mathew, Luke and John as the one revealed to jesus(PBHM) and no single reference exit where muhammad(PBHM) ever read it.

It is not a white lie. The sahih Hadiths clearly establish that during Muhammad's career on the road to proclaiming himself a prophet, the same NT Gospels were known, read and even translated into Arabic by one of Khadija's relatives - to be precise, her cousin (Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza) who was an old man and blind in one eye (see, for example, Bukhari Bk #60, Hadith #478). There was never at any time when a separate Gospel was purported to have been sent down besides those Gospels, and this idea of a separate set of Injil being sent down was engineered by Muslims scholars who found their defence untennable in derogating the NT Gospels. Today, such a dubious claim has been endlessly circulated by the likes of Zakir Naik, and if you asked such men to produce the original Injil for you, you can be sure they would offer you excuses instead.

littleb:

Yes it doesn't exist.
I have read page to page. All in the new testament about jesus is nothing but a report. Historical compilation of many incoherent events while they garbled the original saying of Jesus(PBHM). If you insist there is gospel given to jesus in the bible, kindly site it.

The Gospels are found in the New Testament. Please provide the so-called missing Injil and let's read it for ourselves, thank you.

littleb:

That is according to what your claimed anointed men wrote about them. Even, not only father, there are several imperfect description of God such as; burning fire, like a man, drunk e.t.c.

Where was God ever drunk according to the prophets? You see why Muslims often make claims they cannot substantiate? This is what I often cautioned Olabowale against - lying against the prophets is a serious issue in islam - I should remnd you of the same.

littleb:

In more civic term you are right. Morphologically, God has been relegated to a just being like human and this is the concept that resulted to trinity. A concept that has generated many transformation from father to son, son promoted to god.

The Biblical prophets did not at anytime morph their teaching from what was revealed to them. Anyone who is careful to do literary history without bias will see the point crystal clear.

littleb:

There is no single revelation from God refer himself as a father in the Torah, injeel or the Quran.

On the contrary, there are several references to God revealing Himself as "Father" to His covenant people. Muslims who respect Moses as a prophet of God often like to quote from the same Torah (particularly Deuteronomy) to argue that Muhammad was the promised Prophet whom Moses spoke about. But the same Muslims who quote Deuteronomy are too afraid to quote Deuteronomy 32:6 where Moses stated: "Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not He thy FATHER that hath bought thee? hath He not made thee, and established thee?". I could give you several other reference both in the Torah (the Law), the Zabur (the Psalms), and other prophets in the Old Testament, if you care.

On the contrary, the Qur'an denied the revelation of God as "Father". . . and all the claims that Muhammad previously made about worshipping the same God as Jews and Christians were thrown overboard when he stated clearly that he did not worship the same God whom the Biblical prophets knew as Father. This is why even today, Arab Christians address God as "Allāh al-Āb (الله الآب) - God the Father". The only was Muslim scholars try to evade this concrete fact is to claim that the Torah and Injil in the Quran have all been lost - again, a defenseless duplicity!

littleb:

God is named Allah plus all other 99 atributes which are not sharable by mankind.

I have also examined the issue of 99 names earlier - Muslims are not in agreement as to what names make up the 99 attributes. Everyone says different things and lists different names - so which one should I believe? Besides, you may assume that Allah does not share any of those attribute with mankind, but there again you are wrong - the same thing I have debated with Muslims in the past.

littleb:

You can only be His servant in any ramification. No revelation came from God depicting His name or attribute as father. If you have ref to that and you can prove it, I will take your side.

I have already referenced Deuteronomy 32:6. Do you want more? Besides, the prophets knew their relationship with God as more than "servants". . . they also knew that God saw them as His children (without the idea of sire or sex). Let me give you a few references:

[list][li]Exo. 4:22 - "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn"[/li]
[li]Deut. 14:1 - "Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead."[/li]
[li]Isaiah 63:6 - ". . . Thou, O LORD, art our Father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting"[/li][/list]

Now notice Exodus and Deuteronomy are part of the Torah (the Law), and even if you read those verses in their Hebrew original, they state precisely what I just shared with you above. Isaiah was another authentic prophet who also knew God as "Father", and I wonder why Islam never recognizes him as a prophet even if Jesus did!!

@littleb,

littleb:

This has been proved by many scholars of the world. Not only Muslims.

. . . and we have examined some of those so-called scholars and found them empty! What about the scholars who have proven the same Quran as a set of confused revelations - what do you say about that then? Even the many attacks on the Bible on this Forum have been defended rigorously. . . but any questions on the Quran worldwide is often taken with a retreat to an island, a case in point is the divide now between the Christian and Muslim sections, No? Christians do not retreat when questions are advanced - we cautiously defend the veracity of the Biblical faith against such attacks.

littleb:

Jesus spake "Eloi, Eloi, " provide the translation in Arabic and Hebrew which you understand.

Lol. . . when you are ready to do Biblical studies on their original languages, call on me. Go and first carefully read your claim on the direct connection to make Eloi translate in Allah.

littleb:

Next, Provide "Allah" analysis in arabic with plurality and gender plus their translation in english, Hebrew, greek and Aramaic. In arabic bible, there is no God translation other than Allah.

You're becoming a bit irrational as it does not appear that you have any substance to your overwheening pride. But I'll oblige you once again if you care.

The first thing to understand is that the translators of the Bible into Arabic (as far as I know) did not accurately represent the Biblical texts. Take, for instance, such passages as cited above where Moses and Isaiah were given the revelation of God as Father - what do those verses say in Arabic, my dear littleb?

Second, Christians who know that such translations in Arabic are inaccurate have calmly rejected the compromise and that is why they refer to God in Arabic as "Allāh al-Āb (الله الآب) - God the Father" (see, for example, John 6:27, Philp 2:11, 2 Peter 1:17 and Jude 1).

Third, the word "Allāh" is not a proper name for God, and it was well known by the Arab pagans before Muhammad founded Islam. We all know that it is a contraction of two words - the Arabic article al- and ʾilāh "deity, god". Put together, it stands as al- ʾilāh ("the god". Please understand that "god" is a generic (or common) term for deity, and is not a proper name, so there's no need here to go into semantics about small "g" or capital "G" (later, if you care, I'll show you that even Muslim translators of the Quran have used "god" in reference to Allah).

However, since we know that the word stands alone as "ʾilāh" ("god", the Quran uses its several derivatives to refer to plural deities (such as "aliha" - "gods" - see for example:

[list][list]Quran 7:138 - ""O Musa (Moses)! Make for us an ilahan (a god) as they have aliha (gods)" (Hilali-Khan)[/list][/list]

[list][list]Quran 21:43 - "Or have they aliha (gods) who can guard them from Us?. . ." (Hilali-Khan)[/list][/list]

I could expatiate on this with further references if need be, but there are numerous such in the Quran itself where the word "god" has plurals (gods) as well.

Now, as to the gender, we know that the masculine form of deity is called "allah" ('the god'), while the feminine form is "allat" ('the goddess' with a final 't'). It could be written as either "al-Lāt" or "al-'Ilāhat", and the difference is simply the grammatical forms in Arabic ("ta-marbuta", more precisely, as it is the consonant used in the ordinary feminine singular ending of such arabic words). One such reference in the Qur'an is Sura 53:19 - "Have ye thought upon *Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza" (*'Al-Lat' simply means "the goddess" in contradistinction to the masculine form 'Al-ilah' or 'allah', the god).

This is just a summary, but should you need to be better informed, then I could oblige you and provide classical distinction both from within the Quran, the sahih Hadiths, several Islamic texts and documents, and standard Arabic scholarship. Please don't try to tease yourself on this, because I definitely will take you up on any bluff you advance on these matters.

The point so far is not to ridicule you or Islam. . . not at all. My style is often to provide evidence for what I state as clearly as daylight so that no one is left in doubts. I don't make statements I cannot defend, that is why I don't plagiarize materials or make defenseless statements/claims. For this reason again, I often appeal to my Muslim friends to hold their peace and enjoy their muslim section instead of coming here to be the brigaders of such fallacious claims as they often assert.

I could stop here, but if you'd like me to answer the rest of your claims with crystal clear evidence, I would oblige you.

Shalom.

Infallible is quite a big word. I think people have to understand believing in God is more about faith than about what checks out in the physical world.
If anyone is comfortable with being a christian or a muslim then thats ok, there are others who are not comfortable with some things that are contained in this books hence they ask questions, even though most times it looks like bashing, I can say using myself as an example that it mostly stems from confusion and rage because on some issues the religious books do not check out with what is obtainable in real life.
Some people cannot reconcile why a God would have a chosen people, or why God came across as sometimes insecure and quick to punishment and sometimes in ways that are not humane most especially in the old testament and this is all so compounded by the you cannot question God answer.
Most times the rage is flared on when they raise these concerns and somebody says kneel down and pray the spirit will guide you, then you ask what spirit, the one leading the pope or the ones leading the other 29999 sects sometimes fitting it into your mind is too difficult. That's the point where they strike with the word mystery, dead ends everywhere. Two weeks ago a close catholic priest friend was shot point blank to death, the first question that ran through my mind was where is God, this guy was as good as they come, fine I may not know all his activities but whenever I spoke to him I always felt good.
What I know that christianity has come to stay, so has islam and it is not because they check out but because they are in control with their biggest enemy which is an inquisitive mind. They all don't like being questioned.
I know I do not have all the answers and most likely will not till I die, but for now whatever you believe works for you no religion is superior to another.

@littleb,

littleb:

This is no christian motherboard. The Board name is religion.

My mistake - 'childboard' rather (or 'section' if you prefer). If there were no such distinctions, please let's drop this hypocrisy and merge them all to a single motherboard.

littleb:

This is the most misconception ever. Even, the idol worshipers belief there exist only one God. All their dieties is solely purported as intermidiary. It is only in christianity that has three Godhead and believe in human God.

Christianity never speaks of 3 Godhead(s) - not in one instance. The Godhead is a term describing what the OT prophets already knew about God - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In earlier discussions with others, I have shared that even we Christians have to be careful in our understanding of the Trinity; because often times, when many people are speaking about the trinity, they are thinkingin terms of tritheism (belief in 3 gods) which the Bible never teaches. That was what I used to believe as a muslimah about Christianity, but when I took the bold stand to stop lying against other people's beliefs, I saw that Muslims (and indeed anyone else) who accuse Christianity of teaching "three Godheads" are wrong.

Yes, I used to lie against Christianity with these stereotypes. . . until I saw that the such pigeonhole allusions did not help me on the path to truth.

Rather than denying anything the Biblical prophets have taught, I went rather to embrace them. Why? For 3 basic reasons:

(a) because lying against the prophets is a serious issue in Islam - and as a (former) muslimah, there was no reason why I should be doing that;

(b) we were misled by the mullahs and Muslim scholars who deliberately caliberated the misconception that the Biblical documents have been lost and no longer existed. The hypocrisy in that was the attitude of the same scholars to quote from the books of the Bible to "prove" that Muhammad was the prophet in Deuteronomy 18!! If they do not believe that the Torah and Injil are found in the Bible, why quote from the same Bible to make any claim for Muhammad at all?!?

(c) in my former religion (Islam), we claimed that we believed in the prophets sent to the "people of the book" (meaning Jews and Christians); but yet at the same time we fancy it a thing of joy to castigate their teachings! I could not be living my life with such double standards - and several other things led me to finally decide to take a bold stand to investigate my own convictions: were the prophets right, or wrong? Did allah ask me to first believe in those prophets and then at the same time ridicule and deny their teachings? No.

Now, if I actually believed in the prophets, then I have no reason to castigate their teachings. Afterall, it is the same Quran that states that we make no distinction between the prophets; so why should we be so bitterly engaged in making a distinction where allah says the direct opposite?! This is why I finally had to throw away my hypocrisy and double standards and rather embrace the teachings of the prophets as found in the Biblical texts.

To answer your second allegation: ". . . and believe in human God". I confess that yes indeed, I believe in the incarnation: that Jesus is deity. Please bear with me (if you may) and let me share with you why I so believe.

I believe in the Incarnation for some reasons:

(a) because the same prophets (in whom muslims believe) have taught that God would come in human flesh. I believe in Isaiah as a prophet - and he spoke by prophecy that the Messiah would be called "the Mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6). Both in the Hebrew original text and sincere Hebrew scholarship on that verse agree that the reference was clear that indeed the Mighty God Himself would come in Humanity. Not only

(b) because also, we know that in Islam the Incarnation did not involve "sexual intercourse"; but no muslim in his right mind would deny that only Jesus Christ is referred to as the Word of God! (Although this is often denied, most Muslims actually state it as it is - example, this site that states: "The Qur’an also refers to Jesus as Kalimat Allah, which means The Word of God." Muslim scholarship try to excuse this away by saying that the term "Word of God" only refers to Allah speaking to bring a thing to pass ("be - and it is". My objection is that even the Hadiths did not teach it so, but categorically call Jesus Christ "the WORD" as a proper Name!

(c) because thirdly, even as a muslimah I joined in ridiculing the doctrine of God sharing anything with mankind - not even any semblance of title or characteristics. But even though I already knew this, I was stunned in further research to find that Islam actually believes that "Allah created Adam in His image" (sahih hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim) - the very thing that the Biblical prophets had taught! I'm not intersted now in the doctored interpretations the mullah have given to this; but what is interesting is that Islam actually acknowledges the very same thing that it tries to repudiate in the Biblical faith!

Therefore, after carefully weighing the options, there was not much I could do than sincerely bow to the revelations given to the Biblical prophets - because the Quran did not come to "correct" those scriptures, but rather it many times states that it came to CONFIRM them!

Dear Chrisgenobor,

Chrisbenogor:

Infallible is quite a big word. I think people have to understand believing in God is more about faith than about what checks out in the physical world.

There's nothing wrong in believing in God, actually - and I'm glad you recognize that fact. What is worrisome for those who make it their brithright to be restless about theism is that they often have no clue how to enter upon a discussion on such subjects. The rage, irrational reactions and slurs hardly pass the test of coherence - and that is the unfortunate thing I often read from people who seek to "answers" from theists about their convictions.

If I were an atheist, for example, what does it matter whatever anyone believes? To assume to test theology by teleology is quite hilarious, because the person who attempts to proceed from the physical understanding about the world and remains on that same strian of thought is violating his own principle of investigating the experience about the reality of the world we live in. This is why I have refrained for the moment from engaging in such noise and racketeering until I find people who are willing to engage their intellect without the discourtesies. Like I remarked recently to huxley, quite often the real questions are cleverly left untouched; and in another I asked mazaje what the philisophical and empirical connection could be between infant mortality and prayer. Or even, what are the dynamics of nation development as measurable against the concept of prayer (I even went so far to offer a few - political, social, cultural, economic, demographic, etc).

Quite often is the case that people do not carefully weigh their approaches in making enquiries - and for those who assume that atheism is a more rational worldview than theism, I wish them good luck. All I can do for the moment is watch in amazement as such fellows convince me of their abject irrationality.

Chrisbenogor:

I know I do not have all the answers and most likely will not till I die, but for now whatever you believe works for you no religion is superior to another.

I don't think you get the gist, bro. If anyone has been hooting for the idea of a "superior" religion, please look the other way - Muslims are the ones trying ever so hard to "prove" that their god is right (I quoted it earlier from littleb); and Christian apologetics should not be narrowed to this idea of "religious superiority". You may not have all the answers, that's okay; neither do I. The one reason why I am even on the forum is to help set these gentlemen straight about the untennable claims they often make.

How are you anyways?

: « #33 on: Today at 10:12:24 AM »  
@littleb,

Even if my replies will once again be deleted, I'll take a few lines from yours and offer answers to clear your misconceptions.


Quote from: littleb on Today at 03:12:02 AM
This is a white lie. There is no single verse in the Quran ref a Gospel according Mathew, Luke and John as the one revealed to jesus(PBHM) and no single reference exit where muhammad(PBHM) ever read it.

It is not a white lie. The sahih Hadiths clearly establish that during Muhammad's career on the road to proclaiming himself a prophet, the same NT Gospels were known, read and even translated into Arabic by one of Khadija's relatives - to be precise, her cousin (Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza) who was an old man and blind in one eye (see, for example, Bukhari Bk #60, Hadith #478). There was never at any time when a separate Gospel was purported to have been sent down besides those Gospels, and this idea of a separate set of Injil being sent down was engineered by Muslims scholars who found their defence untennable in derogating the NT Gospels. Today, such a dubious claim has been endlessly circulated by the likes of Zakir Naik, and if you asked such men to produce the original Injil for you, you can be sure they would offer you excuses instead.

Dishonesty as play. What litteb said what no gospel according to, Matthew, Luke and John, in the Qur'an, as the Gospel revealed to Jesus! I guess when people are playing this type of slight of hand, one will have to ask, are the 4 gospels in the bible the only gospels supposedly written by the disciples of Jesus? I know there is another set of writers who finally penned the 4 accepted, since they were under inspiration of the ghostly spirit! But thats another matter!

What is now required that the eminence, in Christianity is to tell us what Waraqa was writing was "Gospel,' and not Bible! Rather, to be specific, the 4 gospels in the present day Bible. And that somehow Muhammad (AS) directly or through somebody got hold of it and used it as the basis of his "Jesus story" in the Qur'an! I remember reading that Waraqa died shortly after Khadihjah took Muhammad to him, simply because he was familar with the signs of thebeginning of Prophethood!

Two things I got from the Waraqa episode; he Waraqa compared the experience of Muhammad with that of Moses, and then he wasstill writing the "Bible"! There was no mention of the specificity of which part! One can not say then that he was writing Matthew, etc Godpels! Interestingly, there was no time tht Muhammad said to anybody that he read the gospel, privately or publicly. Neither was it ever mentioned that the story was ever told to him. What is important though, is that did he used anything from Waraqa'a on ging, probably unfinished Bible! Why would he talked about the virgin birth and all he refuted is the deitification?

Please magic is not allowed in islam. I am sure there are some muslims practicing magic and worse things, including calling Muhammad their lord/god ! Still it is not allowed, when you use the Qur'an and hadith as your base!

Quote from: littleb on Today at 03:12:02 AM
Yes it doesn't exist.
I have read page to page. All in the new testament about jesus is nothing but a report. Historical compilation of many incoherent events while they garbled the original saying of Jesus(PBHM). If you insist there is gospel given to jesus in the bible, kindly site it.

The Gospels are found in the New Testament. Please provide the so-called missing Injil and let's read it for ourselves, thank you.

If the Bible does not contain the apocritic or the uncanonized Gospels of Peter and others who knew Jesus intimately, how can anybody trust the canonized gospels are the total truth? Now, there is a video on goggle that Huxley called my attention to, in his "Jesus did not die" thread. I think a sincere person should watch it for good information. Interesting iwas on BBC! I wonder how a good Christian who is up on all thing Christian, while still in England could have missed out on such an indictment against Christendon!

Quote from: littleb on Today at 03:12:02 AM
That is according to what your claimed anointed men wrote about them. Even, not only father, there are several imperfect description of God such as; burning fire, like a man, drunk e.t.c.

Where was God ever drunk according to the prophets? You see why Muslims often make claims they cannot substantiate? This is what I often cautioned Olabowale against - lying against the prophets is a serious issue in islam - I should remnd you of the same.

Lying against God by saying that He has a child wiith a woman, where by the Child becomes begotten and also god/lord is the worse kind of lie! Interesting the Catholics, the mother of the Protestant branch of Christianity calls Mary the mother of god! Now without being emotional, how is this possible? Except that there is sexuality involved, is there a rational way to procreate, having a progeny? What is the need for God Almighty to have a Child, or to force feed a fatherhood on Him! Is there any rationale to it? When you through out an idea, and we want you Christian to see how illogical it, what we get in return is emotional accusation from you!

I wanna know if the Bible are capable of justifying how God becomes a father, when He is aways the Creator?

Quote from: littleb on Today at 03:12:02 AM
In more civic term you are right. Morphologically, God has been relegated to a just being like human and this is the concept that resulted to trinity. A concept that has generated many transformation from father to son, son promoted to god.

The Biblical prophets did not at anytime morph their teaching from what was revealed to them. Anyone who is careful to do literary history without bias will see the point crystal clear.

Except that your Bible is written down by the Ispired Writers, who are different from the "Prophets"! The word Trinity does not appear in any part of the Bible, yet those people who claim to be Christians all accepted it! Is there anywhere in the Bible that Jesus says, "Listen, I am god, a partner of God the father, who He and me and holy spirit, are each part of the same GOD"? I wanna read it. If no onecan present it, then, that is lie or the first order!

Quote from: littleb on Today at 03:12:02 AM
There is no single revelation from God refer himself as a father in the Torah, injeel or the Quran.

On the contrary, there are several references to God revealing Himself as "Father" to His covenant people. Muslims who respect Moses as a prophet of God often like to quote from the same Torah (particularly Deuteronomy) to argue that Muhammad was the promised Prophet whom Moses spoke about. But the same Muslims who quote Deuteronomy are too afraid to quote Deuteronomy 32:6 where Moses stated: "Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not He thy FATHER that hath bought thee? hath He not made thee, and established thee?". I could give you several other reference both in the Torah (the Law), the Zabur (the Psalms), and other prophets in the Old Testament, if you care.

And there is not verse that the muslims accept from the Bible that contain the word father! Finally, again, the Inspired writers words can not be 100% trusted! We see that Jesus prayed and beg God in many parts of the Bible. Even he cried to that God! Can One God cried out and or beg his partner, another God who is equal to Him?

On the contrary, the Qur'an denied the revelation of God as "Father". . . and all the claims that Muhammad previously made about worshipping the same God as Jews and Christians were thrown overboard when he stated clearly that he did not worship the same God whom the Biblical prophets knew as Father. This is why even today, Arab Christians address God as "Allāh al-Āb (الله الآب) - God the Father". The only was Muslim scholars try to evade this concrete fact is to claim that the Torah and Injil in the Quran have all been lost - again, a defenseless duplicity!

Muslims, who follow Muhammad can never worship a tribal god, or a partnership god, regardless of whether the partnership with othe gods is limited or not! If a person stubbornly decided to name me Olusegun, which is clearly not my name, those who actually know me and call me by my actual name, Olabowale, can we say that those who call me Olabowale are wrong, as to try to support the guy who actually knows my name, but decide that he will only call be Olusegun? The answer will be NO! God is not one of three, or a father or a tribal god restricted to a tribe only!

God is God Almighty, the Creator of all, who will judge us all: The evil doers, with Justice and the doers of good who worship Him as He has commanded that He be worshipped, with Mercy!

Quote from: littleb on Today at 03:12:02 AM
God is named Allah plus all other 99 atributes which are not sharable by mankind.

I have also examined the issue of 99 names earlier - Muslims are not in agreement as to what names make up the 99 attributes. Everyone says different things and lists different names - so which one should I believe? Besides, you may assume that Allah does not share any of those attribute with mankind, but there again you are wrong - the same thing I have debated with Muslims in the past.

Attributes are different from name! I am Olabowale. Thats a name! My attributes are, father of my children, because I sired them, Son of my parents, because they bore me, brother to my siblings, because I am from the same mother or father with each of them, cousin to my cousins, because we share grand parent or grand parents, newphew to my aunts and uncles, because I am a child of their brother or sister, a grand son to my grandparents, because they are the parents of my parents! Attributes are descrptives, etc, while name is the specific Identity! By the way, as a Yoruba man, I have many names, and then some; my islamic name!

Quote from: littleb on Today at 03:12:02 AM
You can only be His servant in any ramification. No revelation came from God depicting His name or attribute as father. If you have ref to that and you can prove it, I will take your side.

I have already referenced Deuteronomy 32:6. Do you want more? Besides, the prophets knew their relationship with God as more than "servants". . . they also knew that God saw them as His children (without the idea of sire or sex). Let me give you a few references:

Not children! We will need a logical explanation. The Bible writers, in their inspirational state became flippant with words! If not we need to read logical expalanations! Was Noah son of God, too, or only the prophets from Jacob and ending up with the "begotten" son?

Exo. 4:22 - "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn"
Deut. 14:1 - "Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead."
Isaiah 63:6 - ". . . Thou, O LORD, art our Father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting"

And Moses never repeated it like that to Pharaoh that he want the children of god to leave with him! Rather he said let the children of Isreal or my people go! Is Israel the God here, if Moses referred to thenm as children of Isreal?

[/quote]
Now notice Exodus and Deuteronomy are part of the Torah (the Law), and even if you read those verses in their Hebrew original, they state precisely what I just shared with you above. Isaiah was another authentic prophet who also knew God as "Father", and I wonder why Islam never recognizes him as a prophet even if Jesus did!!
[quote]

More proof that islam is completely different from the Christian or Jewish religion. Where do I stop with the "Inspired Bible" Writers?!

Hi Olabowale,

Thank you for trying once again to fill pages with claims that have already been settled as empty. I wasn't surprised yesterday that after you claimed Muslims never refer to Muhammad as "Lord", that whole section was immediately deleted after I gave the clear evidence - both from individual Muslims as well as the Islamic Supreme Council of America. What are you guys really afraid of?

I know again that if I should provide evidence to dismiss your fresh untennable assertions, the sections would be deleted. . . or worse yet, the entire thread itself would vanish. ^{[*Mr Hussein who sent me an email, thank you. . . but that is the reason why I never came back to post answers to your numerous questions: such answers would have been deleted].}

olabowale:

Dishonesty as play. What litteb said what no gospel according to, Matthew, Luke and John, in the Qur'an, as the Gospel revealed to Jesus! I guess when people are playing this type of slight of hand, one will have to ask, are the 4 gospels in the bible the only gospels supposedly written by the disciples of Jesus? I know there is another set of writers who finally penned the 4 accepted, since they were under inspiration of the ghostly spirit! But thats another matter!

We have gone through that debate: I provided answers, asked questions - and I never saw you or your friends in those threads ever again. What was the result? You went off in a huff and declared you would never speak to me again - why are you so restless and attracted to my posts?

olabowale:

What is now required that the eminence, in Christianity is to tell us what Waraqa was writing was "Gospel,' and not Bible! Rather, to be specific, the 4 gospels in the present day Bible. And that somehow Muhammad (AS) directly or through somebody got hold of it and used it as the basis of his "Jesus story" in the Qur'an! I remember reading that Waraqa died shortly after Khadihjah took Muhammad to him, simply because he was familar with the signs of thebeginning of Prophethood!

From Waraqa into Muhammad's era and today, no Islamic document can account for a different set of Gospels than the one Waraqa was reading and translating into Arabic. If there was any such, why is it taking for ever for Muslims to just produce those documents and let's read them for ourselves?

olabowale:

Two things I got from the Waraqa episode; he Waraqa compared the experience of Muhammad with that of Moses, and then he wasstill writing the "Bible"! There was no mention of the specificity of which part! One can not say then that he was writing Matthew, etc Godpels! Interestingly, there was no time that Muhammad said to anybody that he read the gospel, privately or publicly. Neither was it ever mentioned that the story was ever told to him. What is important though, is that did he used anything from Waraqa'a on ging, probably unfinished Bible! Why would he talked about the virgin birth and all he refuted is the deitification?

I told you already - the answers were deleted: Muhammad was tested by the Jews of his day about who the Holy Spirit was, and he failed the test. Is there any other reason why he hated the Jews and Christians?

olabowale:

Please magic is not allowed in islam. I am sure there are some muslims practicing magic and worse things, including calling Muhammad their lord/god ! Still it is not allowed, when you use the Qur'an and hadith as your base!

Thank you, I rest my case. Previously you claimed that Muslims never refered to Muhammad as "Lord", but now you are eating your words. Thank you again.

olabowale:

If the Bible does not contain the apocritic or the uncanonized Gospels of Peter and others who knew Jesus intimately, how can anybody trust the canonized gospels are the total truth?

The only reason (among many) why I can trust them is that the mullahs deliberately caliberated duplicities about those documents. If a body of Muslim scholars would do such, I can as well discard their hypocrisy and simply take the Quran in its claim that it came to CONFIRM the Biblical scriptures and not to correct them. So, yes sir. . . I can trust the Bible.

olabowale:

Now, there is a video on goggle that Huxley called my attention to, in his "Jesus did not die" thread. I think a sincere person should watch it for good information. Interesting iwas on BBC! I wonder how a good Christian who is up on all thing Christian, while still in England could have missed out on such an indictment against Christendon!

Thank you sir. There are many such vids on google and Youtube that regard the Quran as a myth - and they were produced in America. I wonder how you never refer to them even though you're living in New york.

olabowale:

Lying against God by saying that He has a child wiith a woman, where by the Child becomes begotten and also god/lord is the worse kind of lie!

It is muslims who projected that lie - so what is my worry? If your conscience is beginning to stir, happy for you: the repercussions are yours to deal with. many times I warned you that "begotten son" does not include wife and sex images - you actually kept on harping on that idea and now begging to be released from your own lies. I am happy for you, sir.

@pilgrim
My sister body dey inside cloth oh, still feeling bad that I lost my cool last night though, but I guess that makes me human. I didnt see you on that thread lol must have had fun on the side lines.
Seriously how many christians believe other religions would partake in paradise? The question even confuses me because other religions have their own definition of paradise so how does one enter into something he does not believe in?
Surely not the same God would order women to cover their body in Islam and let them be free in christianity? So I guess fundamentally both sides believe in God but differ on the ways of God, this is the very foundation of religious conflict and those who do not believe in God are saying why all the confusion?
For the first time here on nairaland let me tell you what I believe or rather what my comfort zone is. I believe in evolution and I believe there could be God, but I just believe that no religion is representing God the way he really is(no offence meant there ). But even this belief is filled with many questions on its own, I have witnessed evil and charms being done and I have also seen miracles that I cannot explain so I also know it would be totally unwise to dismiss the spiritual dimension. I am as pragmatic as humans come and I always wonder if these spiritualists are just tapping into something we do not really know about like electromagnetic induction.
But to be honest with you I feel like the bible has a message a good one at that but it has also got some things pertaining to the physical world mixed up, because for me no amount of inspiration can turn a man into God, that is the only condition that would make the bible infallible.
You pick up genesis and there are too many questions to ask as to why certain things are the way they are( sighs ) well I guess thats why we are here.

@Olabowale,

olabowale:

I want to know if the Bible are capable of justifying how God becomes a father, when He is aways the Creator?

I have said this so many times till I'm wondering if you're deliberately under a special spell that you cannot read. The Fatherhood of God does not include the idea of "sex" - I quoted a few references where it is used (in my reply to littleb) to show that as regarding Isreal, it was simply a matter of His covenant relationship with them; as pertaining to the Messiah, it applies to two things primary things - more importantly the Resurrection.

olabowale:

Except that your Bible is written down by the Ispired Writers, who are different from the "Prophets"!

Did the Quran refer to Moses and Isaiah as "different from the Prophets"? If yes, please quote the sura. . . and if yes again, why are Muslims quoting the same Bible to "prove" Muhammad's prophethood?

olabowale:

The word Trinity does not appear in any part of the Bible, yet those people who claim to be Christians all accepted it!

True. . . the word "bridge" does not appear in the Quran; but Muslims accept it in hope of crossing over and not falling into hell fire.

olabowale:

Is there anywhere in the Bible that Jesus says, "Listen, I am god, a partner of God the father, who He and me and holy spirit, are each part of the same GOD"? I want to read it. If no onecan present it, then, that is lie or the first order!

Is there any place where Jesus said, "Listen, I am not God, not the Son of God, and God is not the Father"? Please dear sir, if there is such a place, can we read it?

This attitude of ferreting doctored questions is no longer a viable tool. I once argued with a muslim 'scholar' about this, and i'm so ashamed to reprint the stupid things he said against even Muhammad. . . and went so far to shamelessly said that Allah can forgive him, because we were just "talking". While I will never make such denials and caricatures against the prophets, what struck me is the propensity of some Muslims to easily damn their souls against their own consciences in the name of "just talking".

olabowale:

And there is not verse that the muslims accept from the Bible that contain the word father!

I know - afterall you said earlier in the deleted section yesterday that Muhammad received a revelation of denials. So if he also denied what Moses and the prophets taught, what is my worry?

olabowale:

Finally, again, the Inspired writers words can not be 100% trusted!

Okay then. . . we now know why we should not trust the Quran, afterall Muhammad claimed in it that he was inspired just in the same way as those prophets. In order to ridicule the prophets, you unwittingly ridicule and make nonsense of your own Quran. Olabowale, I'm not vexed at all; but even when you are averse to other people's belief, do you have to make senseless statement without realizing how they reflect on the Quran as well?

Just so you know, you can check the following, where Allah claims that inspired Muhammad in the same way as the Biblical prophets: Sura 4 v 163 -

[list][list]"Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad SAW) as We inspired Nuh (Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) inspired Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], 'Iesa (Jesus), Ayub (Job), Yunus (Jonah), Harun (Aaron), and Sulaiman (Solomon), and to Dawud (David) We gave the Zabur (Psalms)." [Hilali-Khan][/list][/list]

Now, Olabowale, by your own very assertion that "the Inspired writers words can not be 100% trusted", then by extension nothing Muhammad said in the Quran can be trusted 100%.

Am shocked to read that is it has been declared on entry #34, see above, entered in today at 11.12.30am, that the translators of the Bible into Arabic, as far as they know, did a poor Job at it! Then how did we develop the spirit of accusation, that Muhammad copied the Bible?! The truth being revealed, gradually!

« #36 on: Today at 12:07:59 PM »  
@littleb,
Quote from: littleb on Today at 03:12:02 AM
This is the most misconception ever. Even, the idol worshipers belief there exist only one God. All their dieties is solely purported as intermidiary. It is only in christianity that has three Godhead and believe in human God.

Christianity never speaks of 3 Godhead(s) - not in one instance. The Godhead is a term describing what the OT prophets already knew about God - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In earlier discussions with others, I have shared that even we Christians have to be careful in our understanding of the Trinity; because often times, when many people are speaking about the trinity, they are thinkingin terms of tritheism (belief in 3 gods) which the Bible never teaches. That was what I used to believe as a muslimah about Christianity, but when I took the bold stand to stop lying against other people's beliefs, I saw that Muslims (and indeed anyone else) who accuse Christianity of teaching "three Godheads" are wrong.

Sure the Christians do, with Jesus being a full god, and holy ghost being a full god, too and father god being another full god, is there any doubt that there is no 3godhead here?! It in the same way as trinity, a word that does not occur in the bible but yet believed. Could the christian now wise up and say that since 3godheads are not in the bible, they are denying that they do not speak about it?

A muslim person, male or female, would never leave islam and go to Christianity, which oozes with full disbeliever! How can anyone justify god being human and then dies, they another one overshadowing an innocent young woman, while the other is fathering the baby god? Subhanallah!

Yes, I used to lie against Christianity with these stereotypes. . . until I saw that the such pigeonhole allusions did not help me on the path to truth.

Rather than denying anything the Biblical prophets have taught, I went rather to embrace them. Why? For 3 basic reasons:

(a) because lying against the prophets is a serious issue in Islam - and as a (former) muslimah, there was no reason why I should be doing that;

(b) we were misled by the mullahs and Muslim scholars who deliberately caliberated the misconception that the Biblical documents have been lost and no longer existed. The hypocrisy in that was the attitude of the same scholars to quote from the books of the Bible to "prove" that Muhammad was the prophet in Deuteronomy 18!! If they do not believe that the Torah and Injil are found in the Bible, why quote from the same Bible to make any claim for Muhammad at all?!?

(c) in my former religion (Islam), we claimed that we believed in the prophets sent to the "people of the book" (meaning Jews and Christians); but yet at the same time we fancy it a thing of joy to castigate their teachings! I could not be living my life with such double standards - and several other things led me to finally decide to take a bold stand to investigate my own convictions: were the prophets right, or wrong? Did allah ask me to first believe in those prophets and then at the same time ridicule and deny their teachings? No.

To say that Jesus was not god is a lie? To say that the Bible is laced with fantacy and corruption is a lie?And to actually cull out the possible truth remaining in it and clearly point out to everyone that Paul statement, as example is not the statement of jesus is not accuracy? Wow! What happen when Jesus staments are incongruent with each other, if Paul and company did not say anything in the bible? What shuld we do? Should we accept two completely opposite statement about a single topinc at the same time? hardly! The disgenuity is not from the muslims. It has to be with the people of the books!

Now, if I actually believed in the prophets, then I have no reason to castigate their teachings. Afterall, it is the same Quran that states that we make no distinction between the prophets; so why should we be so bitterly engaged in making a distinction where allah says the direct opposite?! This is why I finally had to throw away my hypocrisy and double standards and rather embrace the teachings of the prophets as found in the Biblical texts.

No Muslim denies what a prophet said! We deny what Paul and co, and "inspired Bible writers" said and put it as the records of the prophets. God Almighty said of the people of the Book, about their food, that everything is permissable, that He permitted to them. And that it is jacob who imposed on himself what he forbade himself (because of the Angel pressing his thigh, or hip(! If Qur'an detail this very point, then it is clear that if it is truth, of the old prophets, one will definitely find it in Qur'an. But you will not find Jesus as god! God Almighty stated that dont you see his mother as a human being; She and the son used to eart. They behaved like humans. The way humans are programmed to behave. Jesus had a chance to make make a fig tree come to life with abundant of fruits. He did not do it. Instaed, he cursed the tree, in anger and hunger to die!

To answer your second allegation: ". . . and believe in human God". I confess that yes indeed, I believe in the incarnation: that Jesus is deity. Please bear with me (if you may) and let me share with you why I so believe.

I believe in the Incarnation for some reasons:

(a) because the same prophets (in whom muslims believe) have taught that God would come in human flesh. I believe in Isaiah as a prophet - and he spoke by prophecy that the Messiah would be called "the Mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6). Both in the Hebrew original text and sincere Hebrew scholarship on that verse agree that the reference was clear that indeed the Mighty God Himself would come in Humanity. Not only

If the Bible writers, in their wild inspirations called every persons sons of god and even declared that "yee are gods?", is it neurosurgery to see how thay will say god will come as human, again, since so many gods are already on earth, as tribes of humans, the children of israel! Aburo, Pilgrim, up to just now I was just going along in hard debate. But I see that there is a problem here. You are a very smart woman. I see that you can reason, thoughtful too. But please do not let someone, by something that he has no knowledge about lead you astray! The so called shaikh are humans, and just like hman they can make mistakes.

I remember as  child, I did not go to islamic school, but always muslim. In religious class i took islamic study. When i made wudu, in from of the class I washed my feet above the ankle. My teacher beat me hard. many decades, I read that it is the enlogation of the light of wudu when the feet is washed the way I did then. Guess what, I do it now! I hate to ee good people end up in the wrong camp. Aburo, I le o ti su. Olorun a fi ono ooto hon e! There is no God but 1 and God had never been like His Creations. Never, at no time! You have my email. Lets start over, again! As I pray for those who who do not know the sweet nectar of islam, yet they are Muslims, I also pray for you and others that God Almighty guide your hearts to success, in the life and after it!

(b) because also, we know that in Islam the Incarnation did not involve "sexual intercourse"; but no muslim in his right mind would deny that only Jesus Christ is referred to as the Word of God! (Although this is often denied, most Muslims actually state it as it is - example, this site that states: "The Qur’an also refers to Jesus as Kalimat Allah, which means The Word of God." Muslim scholarship try to excuse this away by saying that the term "Word of God" only refers to Allah speaking to bring a thing to pass ("be - and it is". My objection is that even the Hadiths did not teach it so, but categorically call Jesus Christ "the WORD" as a proper Name!

But the Qur'an is not a proponent of incarnation or reincarnation! And the Qur'an denies Jesus being God, or God being father!

(c) because thirdly, even as a muslimah I joined in ridiculing the doctrine of God sharing anything with mankind - not even any semblance of title or characteristics. But even though I already knew this, I was stunned in further research to find that Islam actually believes that "Allah created Adam in His image" (sahih hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim) - the very thing that the Biblical prophets had taught! I'm not intersted now in the doctored interpretations the mullah have given to this; but what is interesting is that Islam actually acknowledges the very same thing that it tries to repudiate in the Biblical faith!

Show us where you find Allah is described to have human form! Will it not be interesting that it will completely oppose Surah Iklas; Qur'an Chapter 112, and other verses, distinguishing God Almighty completely away from His creations, including Adam.

It is to be noted that God give the feeling of mercy, forgiveness, knowledge and others to man, in a limited form. These are share with Him. But Allah qualities shared with man is limitless. For example Allah says He sees, will you therefore conclude that He sees with eyes like that of human? The answer will be no! When He says all things are within His reach, are you thing that he has human arms, hands and fingers? That will be wrong! God is unique in every which way you can thing. And He is not a man either. Mascullinity is used because it is the stronger of the wto genders, that human know! And we are humans, we do not have knowledge that will be beyond humans, regardless of our future advancements!

Therefore, after carefully weighing the options, there was not much I could do than sincerely bow to the revelations given to the Biblical prophets - because the Quran did not come to "correct" those scriptures, but rather it many times states that it came to CONFIRM them!

Aburo. You have time. And there is still time to bow out. May God help you to make the right decision, when the time comes. There is no shame or arrogance is trying to prevent one soul and body from entering Hellfire. You know how to reach me, whenever you are comfortable enough. I ask God to have mercy on you and all of us!

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:

@pilgrim
My sister body dey inside cloth oh, still feeling bad that I lost my cool last night though, but I guess that makes me human.

No worries. . . we are all human. I have lost my cool so many times on the Forum; but I learnt to settle down and be more coherent and sane in my discussions after the experience.

Chrisbenogor:

I didnt see you on that thread lol must have had fun on the side lines.

Lol. . . I was deeply tempted and gritted my teeth as I watched the banter; but I didn't want to wade into the hot tempers.

Chrisbenogor:

Seriously how many christians believe other religions would partake in paradise?

A serious answer is this: I believe IMHO that Romans 2:4-14 gives the clue. Verses 7 and 8 especially highlights the two sides that people often struggle with: (a) "to them who by patient continuance in well doing", contrasted with (b) "unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth". One can claim to be a "Christian" and still be ridiculously contentious as well; so I don't see the question simply as a matter of "religions". I think it's more coherent to understand the question more as a matter of relationships than of religions. God often sets the former (relationships) before us, and not so much the latter; and I think that the problem people have about such is because they often confuse the two and generalize them one and all only in terms of "religion".

Chrisbenogor:

The question even confuses me because other religions have their own definition of paradise

I have no problem with anyone's definition of any concept. Here is where I would like to borrow from davidylan's wisdom: Christians endeavour to share the Gospel with everyone - it's all a matter of choice. If people, however, begin to borrow from the Bible to build their own religious worldviews and at the same time castigate the Biblical teachings, that is where Christian apologetics come to the fore - simply, the defense of the Biblical faith against misrepresentations deliberately caliberated for the very purpose of false accusations against the veracity of Christian theism.

Chrisbenogor:

so how does one enter into something he does not believe in?

Good question: the very thing that I had to struggle with before I became a Christian. I wondered how it would be possible to believe at all in the very same thing I previously attacked. . . and up until now I cannot put in words the spiritual experience that brought me here, but I know that many intellectual exercises (theological, teleological and philosophical) have helped to shape my thinking. Bottomline: I had to make a bold resolve to stop deliberately misrepresenting people's convictions - and that was a huge step that has helped me to this very day.

Chrisbenogor:

Surely not the same God would order women to cover their body in Islam and let them be free in christianity?

Well, that is a volatile question - and I don't want to be insensitive to my Muslim friends here. Many people have the misconception that it is the same God that is being worshipped between Islam and the Biblical faiths. Now, apart from the intellectual arguments, I am convinced that each faith is quite definitive about that question - and that is why I simply hint to my muslim discussants to note that the Quran declares they are not the same God. Period.

Because public opinions often mistake this, I hitherto have only been hinting about it but have never quoted any references; yet, in both the Quran and the Hadiths, there are numerous declarations to that point.

So, in answer, I don't want to get into protracted fissures on that - but simply state that the question is self-evident.

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:

So I guess fundamentally both sides believe in God but differ on the ways of God, this is the very foundation of religious conflict and those who do not believe in God are saying why all the confusion?

Another intelligent and legitimate question (that is why I find it easier discussing with you than many of my "rationalists" friends). Anyhow, it is true that there are conflicts between religions - high tension wires are laid in the minefields criss-crossing all religious persuasions. But again, where indeed has there ever been a concensus in other worldviews. Let me explain.

We know that atheists are not all agreed as to the definition of the term "atheism". Today, some have whipped up this notion that "athiesm is simply the lack of belief". Rubbish! Those who are stating such are cleverly dancing with rotten carrots ^{(no injuries meant to anyone reading this - I'm speaking to chrisbenogor).} The point is that whatever definition is given to atheism by atheists themselves, we all know that they are not all agreed upon what is involved therein!

What about politics? Have we not had evidence upon evidence of internal ranglings in political parties? The case of the Republicans and the Democrats inthe US serves us as ready examples.

And now science. Even among evolutionary biologists who are atheists, we know they can be bitterly opposed sometimes - as was the case between Richard Dawkins and late Stephen J Gould. What (in my small understanding) was the stone in the shoe between them is this: they had the same set of data, but they interpret those data differently!

I'm no scientist; but I have studied science to a critical level. . . until my professors in class set us striaght that one cannot be regarded as properly understanding the gist of science until he/she studies "the philosophy of science". Phew! I have failed that class twice already. . . and only recently did I ace my exams in that.

So in religion. I don't waste my time trying to discredit all the religions of the world - that is not what I am called to do. I'm rather called to live coherently with my faith, share that faith with others, and promote the wellbeing of my generation in consonance with the revealed glory of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. That is what I am called to do - and though I do not always articulate this by experience, the endurance attending my tutelage has helped me to see that philosophically, apologetics makes it easier for me to see this kind of discussion as a matter of "religion and science properly understood" and not "religion against science".

I hope thus far I've communicated something worthwhile to you? 

Chrisbenogor:

For the first time here on nairaland let me tell you what I believe or rather what my comfort zone is. I believe in evolution and I believe there could be God, but I just believe that no religion is representing God the way he really is(no offence meant there ). But even this belief is filled with many questions on its own, I have witnessed evil and charms being done and I have also seen miracles that I cannot explain so I also know it would be totally unwise to dismiss the spiritual dimension. I am as pragmatic as humans come and I always wonder if these spiritualists are just tapping into something we do not really know about like electromagnetic induction.

You have travelled well on a good intellectual road, and I applaud the sincerity and openness in your credence (if I could borrow that term for now). It is true that many people may have so many questions about faith (I do) and science (as well I do). But the key to understanding the phenomena of the world we live in is this: avoid extremism. When people are too polarized (religiously or teleologically), it becomes too difficult for them to see anything else. I believe that you will find the veracity for the Christian faith a very coherent experience - as long as you and I do not fall victims of brashly dismissing what we cannot disprove.

Chrisbenogor:

But to be honest with you I feel like the bible has a message a good one at that but it has also got some things pertaining to the physical world mixed up, because for me no amount of inspiration can turn a man into God, that is the only condition that would make the bible infallible.

I don't know all the answers; and I may not be a pragmatist. What I do know is that whatever interpretations one may give to the Biblical message, its message should not be misrepresented. An example: I don't remember ever reading that the Bible can turn a man into God. But as long as I am willing to apply myself to its invitation to God's love, I know I'm on safe grounds.

Chrisbenogor:

You pick up genesis and there are too many questions to ask as to why certain things are the way they are( sighs ) well I guess thats why we are here.

There is not a single book of the 66 books of the Bible where questions are not asked. I have many - several of my questions have been dispelled as I found answers. I patiently study it, read it, live it. . . and seek answers; but I always and always avoid extreme polarizations. . because I definitely will miss the message.

Whatever are the questions in life - theologically or teleologically - we do not have all the answers. Those who claim that science knows it all do not even know half of what science is all about! Same thing with a theist - I am one who will not accuse any other theist of anything: but I confess that my knowledge is small, but my faith is rock solid.

God bless you.

@olabowole
I have been reading your posts(although they are sometimes too long) and decided to ask you a few questions,
Do you believe in heaven and hell?
Where is heaven and where is hell?
We know when we die our flesh decays and even our bones with time, so explain to me in what form we would be when we are brought back to life, and where we would be.
Why did God create adam and eve as whole and then other human beings even animals and plants have to go through a gestation period?
Why is there life only on earth?
What is the purpose of other planets?
How old is the earth according to the quaran?
Please try and stick to the questions

@Olabowale,

olabowale:

Am shocked to read that is it has been declared on entry #34, see above, entered in today at 11.12.30am, that the translators of the Bible into Arabic, as far as they know, did a poor Job at it! Then how did we develop the spirit of accusation, that Muhammad copied the Bible?! The truth being revealed, gradually!

You need not be shocked - to be shocked would only be because you're reading issues the backside up!  Anyhow, I maintain that the translators of the Arabic Bible (the ones I know) did a poor job - but please note that I said "translators". In translating the Bible, it does not mean that the message is therefore affected from its original - because how would I be competent to state that a translated piece is poor? Is it not by looking at what it was translated from?

In the same way, many of the translations of the Quran into English are grossly inaccurate. Notice again, I said "translations of the Quran". . . so if you are shocked in the case of the Bible, then you should also be shocked at the truth revealed about this scenario on the Quran. We have been on this subject before (here, here and also here). Anyone who reads through that thread will see the point, so you shock measure is a mute case.

olabowale:

Sure the Christians do, with Jesus being a full god, and holy ghost being a full god, too and father god being another full god, is there any doubt that there is no 3godhead here?!

Again, we have dealt with this before, and I have clearly distingusihed between tritheism and trinity - they are not the same. To be stubbornly insisting they are the same is not a good sign of intelligence.

olabowale:

A muslim person, male or female, would never leave islam and go to Christianity, which oozes with full disbeliever!

I am not the first person to have left Islam and converted to Christianity; and many millions more are also leaving Islam as they realize the same duplicity I discovered. I don't have a quarrel with any Muslim, but you can accuse them as will "bellefull" you, I just love the people - and I love you as well in Jesus Christ!

olabowale:

To say that Jesus was not god is a lie?

I asked you to simply show where Jesus made your doctored statement, did you? Instead of recycling your arguments where I have dealt with them before, I simply ask you to refer to the relevant threads - its not my style to act like a broken record the way you do and keep recycling issues.

Lol. . . Olabowale, I've been where you are still struggling with, I accused Christianity of many untrue things. But today? I'm not the one who is restless, so I'll just leave you with the same problem and rather ask you to stay long enough to enjoy the fellowship you lack in Islam.

Chrisbenogor:

@olabowole
I have been reading your posts(although they are sometimes too long) and decided to ask you a few questions,
Do you believe in heaven and hell?
Where is heaven and where is hell?
We know when we die our flesh decays and even our bones with time, so explain to me in what form we would be when we are brought back to life, and where we would be.
Why did God create adam and eve as whole and then other human beings even animals and plants have to go through a gestation period?
Why is there life only on earth?
What is the purpose of other planets?
How old is the earth according to the quaran?
Please try and stick to the questions

Hi Chris, may I request that you take this to another thread, please. I've enjoyed discussing with you sanely and may not be inclined to keep track here if this thread loses its focus. Thanks.

@pilgrim
I didn't intend to pursue the answers with him I asked him because I am sure at one point or the other he will say we don't know why or how.
Then I was going to ask him to apply that to the way he has been trying to understand the trinity, or how Jesus became man, in summary there are things we were not meant to understand easily.

Anyways you guys should go on I am reading with interest, you were a muslim before thats swell.

Lol. . . @Chrisbenogor,

I should have anticipated you. . . infact I did, but wasn't quite sure. Oops! I spilled the beans. True, there are many things we don't understand, but hmmm. . . my muslim friends believe they understand everything - as far as only the Quran makes them believe so! If asked certain questions about the same Quran, you no go see them again! Next you know, the thread will disappear! Interesting world we live in.

Anyhow, I'll just let him blow hot and cold. . . and anytime I have the fortune of reading your piece, I might be stimulated enough to make some contributions.

Enjoy.

@pilgrim
No worries, which one is this thread disappearing thing again, afraid is catching me oh.
Ako was made mod good thing, you take care too have to head out and check some things.
Ciao.

I asked you to simply show where Jesus made your doctored statement, did you? Instead of recycling your arguments where I have dealt with them before, I simply ask you to refer to the relevant threads - its not my style to act like a broken record the way you do and keep recycling issues.

Dont hyperventilate! Never did I or any muslim say that Jesus, or Moses or any other prophet (AS), doctored statement! You need to read entries before you post any response! We say that the "Ispired Bible Writers", who are the people who you christians wrote your Bible, changed, okay, doctored whatever was originally the constructs of the "Messengers and or Prophets!" I believe you should with this get the gist, without trying to twist my statements. Its your Bible writers, who were filled with the wrong inspiration, unless you are now saying that Jesus (AS) is a writer of any or all the gospels!

Lol. . . Olabowale, I've been where you are still struggling with, I accused Christianity of many untrue things. But today? I'm not the one who is restless, so I'll just leave you with the same problem and rather ask you to stay long enough to enjoy the fellowship you lack in Islam.

How many years did you spend being a muslim? And how many years you are not a christian? Please add both of them together. After that multiply your answer by two. What ever tou now have may just be around my age! All of my age I have spent it in Islam! How could you have been where you thing am struggling with! If I have a daughter she will be in your age bracket! I think your Bible is not allowing you to think straight. At least between you and me, there will be 20 years. Omode o le lasho titi, ko lakisa to agbalagba. Between you I am the Agbalagba, and I must have rags more than you!

Alhamdulillah! God has decreed what He had decreed! Aponle ni mala, , ! You know the rest. I am not restless because of you, if I were, at all. What you do is for your own benefit! I have no direct gain, except that I thank God for any good you do, if the news of it reaches me! Please take a rest! While you are telling us that you left islam for utterly silly reasons, its surprising that you find yourself in a religion that the same thing you complain that most muslims think about, which is natural to think about things that are humanly, most christians do at the role of a dice! Its second nature for them to do it, because it is not even necessary to think about it.

Finally, its interesting that you said there are ahadiths which talk about human being created in the image of God. Please show us ahadith where you get any idea that God and man have the same form, handseye, legs, turso, head, hair, beard, teeth, etc! How do you figure if you can't that Jesus is God then, especially when the Qur'an contains may verses talking about the uniqueness of God, etc?

Anyway, since you can't argue with proof(s), I will not pay too much attention to your statements because they will just be without substance.

@Queenisha: My friend, is this all you have waiting for?! Some day I will let Zainab (Ada Ndidi) tell you her life in Islam! My dearest Prince of Owerri has plenty to tell you. Hopefully, she can affect your heart! She is good at presenting argument. Thats her profession.

Interestingly, the mother tongue of Muhammad (AS) is Arabic. If the Bible translator did such a poor job in translating it to Arabic language, we will see that the accusation levelled on Muhammad, as using the bible to produce the Bible is inconceivable, at best! And when one observe how superior and different in details to the Bible, the common story that they share, we will have to declare the Christian accusers and their accusation broke the rule of truth telling!

Hi Olabowale,

olabowale:

Dont hyperventilate! Never did I or any muslim say that Jesus, or Moses or any other prophet (AS), doctored statement! You need to read entries before you post any response!

Lol. . . I was not hyperventilating, and your remarks only indicate to me that you didn't catch the gist. You wanted to find passages in the Bible where Jesus might have said that He was God - and my response was for your to show where He actually said He was not God. If you cannot find your own doctored statements in the Bible, be sure you won't find the other either. The bottomline was that the Muslim denial of the deity of Jesus Christ is simply that: a denial.

olabowale:

We say that the "Ispired Bible Writers", who are the people who you christians wrote your Bible, changed, okay, doctored whatever was originally the constructs of the "Messengers and or Prophets!" I believe you should with this get the gist, without trying to twist my statements.

I did not twist anything, dear sir. I quoted your direct statement where you said that the inspired writers could not be trusted 100%. My response was direct in consonance with your Quran to the point that Muhammad could not then be trusted, afterall he also is purported to have been inspired in exactly the way the Biblical prophets were inspired. You cannot play this carrot stick of repudiating the Biblical prophets and hope to put a cosmetic career on the prophet of Islam.

olabowale:

Its your Bible writers, who were filled with the wrong inspiration, unless you are now saying that Jesus (AS) is a writer of any or all the gospels!

The same Bible writers were respected by Allah in the Quran. The dilemma for Muslims is that they find their own position and accusations untennable - and that is why they hope to dribble round the veracity of the Biblical prophets.

olabowale:

How many years did you spend being a muslim?

Longer than you cared.

olabowale:

And how many years you are not a christian?

For all the years I heard the deliberately caliberated duplicity from the mullahs.

olabowale:

Please add both of them together. After that multiply your answer by two.

You are a wonderful mathematician! However, Islamic arithmetics do not interest me anymore. Is it not the Quran that speaks of two Easts and two Wests? Even a kid knows there's only one of each. Thank you for the maths lesson anyhow.

olabowale:

What ever tou now have may just be around my age!

I hear.

olabowale:

All of my age I have spent it in Islam! How could you have been where you thing am struggling with!

Have you started this age-long "seniority" saga again? Oh bother! You're a very interesting elderly elder!

Hi Olabowale,

olabowale:

If I have a daughter she will be in your age bracket! I think your Bible is not allowing you to think straight.

Okay, I don hear finish.

olabowale:

At least between you and me, there will be 20 years. Omode o le lasho titi, ko lakisa to agbalagba. Between you I am the Agbalagba, and I must have rags more than you!

E seun.

olabowale:

Alhamdulillah! God has decreed what He had decreed! Aponle ni mala, , ! You know the rest. I am not restless because of you, if I were, at all. What you do is for your own benefit! I have no direct gain, except that I thank God for any good you do, if the news of it reaches me!

Thank God, I hear.

olabowale:

Please take a rest! While you are telling us that you left islam for utterly silly reasons, its surprising that you find yourself in a religion that the same thing you complain that most muslims think about, which is natural to think about things that are humanly, most christians do at the role of a dice!

Thank you again. Silly reasons or not, I'm glad I left Islam.

olabowale:

Finally, its interesting that you said there are ahadiths which talk about human being created in the image of God. Please show us ahadith where you get any idea that God and man have the same form, handseye, legs, turso, head, hair, beard, teeth, etc! How do you figure if you can't that Jesus is God then, especially when the Qur'an contains may verses talking about the uniqueness of God, etc?

Alhaji agba, e da kun! I'm not the writer of the ahadiths, and unless you want to deeply convince readers that your knowledge therein is shalow, it must be very queer that you of all people never came across the passage where Muhammad said that Allah created Adam in his image?!? I simply hint you about them - what's my worry if you're hell-bent on denying everything that you don't like, even though they are verily contained in Islamic texts?

olabowale:

Anyway, since you can't argue with proof(s), I will not pay too much attention to your statements because they will just be without substance.

Dream tall. Have I not given enough proof already to deflate your wrong and untennable assertions? Make I name them again? Who was it that asserted that Muslims never referred to Muhammad as "Lord"? Did I not give clear evidence even from the Islamic Supreme Council of America? Who was it that was claiming a while back that Muslims do not worship at the shrine of their prophets? Did I not give evidence to dispell that myth with clear pictures to show the tombs inside the many mosques around the world?

It is okay to say that you won't pay attention because you believe that I have no evidence. You must be a very interesting fellow to circumvent the obvious.

olabowale:

Interestingly, the mother tongue of Muhammad (AS) is Arabic. If the Bible translator did such a poor job in translating it to Arabic language, we will see that the accusation levelled on Muhammad, as using the bible to produce the Bible is inconceivable, at best! And when one observe how superior and different in details to the Bible, the common story that they share, we will have to declare the Christian accusers and their accusation broke the rule of truth telling!

Hohohohahaha!! We have been through this before - and you're the only one on nairaland that I read who hinted that Muhammad received a revelation of denial. How I wish that quote of yours was never deleted! But I'm satisfied you already said so, and it is hardly surprising to me.

Remain blessed in Jesus Name.

The discussion have been quite interesting. It's unfortunate I have been out for a while. As far as bible is concern, I can see I am getting some facts from pilgrim.1 which I believe he will not reverse her statement. Nevertheless, she would always struggle hard to justify bible is still infallible, which I belief such impression is publicily falacious. Even, to many christians belivers, bible is mixed with some doctored God's prophetic messages plus many stories from many unknown writers. The expostion of bible within itself revealed clearly that it is the work of men which is either a guess work or one relating to another third party information. thus full of errors. How could someone now raise out his/her voice loud to prove bible is infallible God's word. Undoubtedly, the messages therein mixed with some positive moral teaching with many incoherence logics. If we are to question a bible believer about many subjects and he/she is to provide an answers according to what God says in his book, bilief me, never will you find a definte answers from them, rather their own cynical judgement differ from one another, many evidences have shown in this forum. Hmm, you know, much lies could be formulaed when people are trying to secure an unjustifiable.

"And who can be more unjust than he who invents a lie against Allah, or says: "I have received inspiration," whereas he is not inspired in anything; and who says, "I will reveal the like of what Allah has revealed." And if you could but see when the wrong-doers are in the agonies of death, while the angels are stretching forth their hands (saying): "Deliver your soul! This day you shall be recompensed with the torment of degradation because of what you used to utter against Allah other than the truth. And you used to reject His signs (revelations) with disrespect!"
(The Holy Quran, Al-Anam, 6:93)"

@pilgrim,
In sha Allah, I will try as much to go through your posts and responded to the worthy ones. I think you know our differences. You never bilief in Muhammad? So, lakun dinikun waliyadin. If you claim Muhammad formulated lies and copied bible to produce such a wonderful book called Quran. Haa! for being unlettered, at least he tried. What if he was a Phd?

Hi littleb,

I would have left just a single line of response; but it's necessary at this stage to set a few issues straight as a preamble to your further discourses.

littleb:

The discussion have been quite interesting. It's unfortunate I have been out for a while. As far as bible is concern, I can see I am getting some facts from pilgrim.1 which I believe he will not reverse her statement.

I do hope for your sake that you understood the said "facts" and not assume to misinterprete them.

littleb:

Nevertheless, she would always struggle hard to justify bible is still infallible, which I belief such impression is publicily falacious.

Lol, I don't struggle hard to justify anything - that is what we used to do as Muslims who often make every effort justify everything in the Quran rather than let it speak for itself. My experience in seeking to find a coherence in the Quran led me to read and study the Bible. The conviction thereof is what led me to believe what it teaches.

littleb:

Even, to many christians belivers, bible is mixed with some doctored God's prophetic messages plus many stories from many unknown writers.

Thanks for the compliments, but we have heard all such kinds of accusations forever. Yet, a godly person would appreciate the fact that the prophecies of the Biblical prophets stand established on their own - and no one has to run to the Quran for support to understand them. How many prophecies in comparison are given in the Quran that would stand on their own without running to the Bible for support?

littleb:

The expostion of bible within itself revealed clearly that it is the work of men which is either a guess work or one relating to another third party information. thus full of errors.

And yet those are the same scriptures which the Quran said allah sent down, revealed and also came to confirm? Your logic is so weak, because as many times as you trump up this fallacies, you would unwittingly be making a weaker case for the Quran.

littleb:

How could someone now raise out his/her voice loud to prove bible is infallible God's word. Undoubtedly, the messages therein mixed with some positive moral teaching with many incoherence logics.

This is the greatest mistake you can make when reading the Bible. The Biblical prophecies and teaching are not about logic - and that is why my Muslim friends have often failed to grasp its message. On the other hand, it's quite funny that many Muslims try to argue the veracity of the Quran on the basis of logic. Dear littleb, I would be all too glad to waste your presumptions if you make the mistake of arguing logic with me.

littleb:

If we are to question a bible believer about many subjects and he/she is to provide an answers according to what God says in his book, bilief me, never will you find a definte answers from them,

Well, if you have made up your mind about that already, good luck. I haven't seen muslims who have sensibly defended the Quran in simple questions I have offered. Instead, the default response has always been to evade questions about the Quran and then seek to ask 1000 questions against the Bible - usually also running to websites to plagiarize materials and pretend them as their own.

littleb:

rather their own cynical judgement differ from one another, many evidences have shown in this forum.

Haven't we seen how many muslims actually contradict themselves on the Forum? So what is your question or argument again?

littleb:

Hmm, you know, much lies could be formulaed when people are trying to secure an unjustifiable.

That's true on both sides as well as many non-religious discussions. You can always count on me to show you irrefutable evidence for whatever I state about Islam.

littleb:

"And who can be more unjust than he who invents a lie against Allah, or says: "I have received inspiration," whereas he is not inspired in anything;

This is the thing that we have to get at - whether or not Muhammad received inspiration. Only recently did our esteemed alhaji hint that a revelation of denials was given to Muhammad: what could I do with such an answer?

littleb:

and who says, "I will reveal the like of what Allah has revealed." And if you could but see when the wrong-doers are in the agonies of death, while the angels are stretching forth their hands (saying): "Deliver your soul! This day you shall be recompensed with the torment of degradation because of what you used to utter against Allah other than the truth. And you used to reject His signs (revelations) with disrespect!"
(The Holy Quran, Al-Anam, 6:93)"

It's not my style to be disrespectful to anyone's convictions - whether religious or non-religious. I wonder why many Muslims I discuss with are the first to show disdain for the faith and convictions of other people and then run to quote Al-Anam, 6:93. I wonder if it is the birthright of Islam to disrespect others but assume that such an attitude should never be questioned.

littleb:

@pilgrim,
In sha Allah, I will try as much to go through your posts and responded to the worthy ones. I think you know our differences. You never bilief in Muhammad?

I used to believe in Muhammad and the Quran. I already explained why I left Islam, no disrespect intended.

littleb:

So, lakun dinikun waliyadin. If you claim Muhammad formulated lies and copied bible to produce such a wonderful book called Quran.

I don't remember making such a claim. What I do know for a fact is that his revelations were formulated deliberately against the Biblical prophets, and I cannot tolerate his seething hatred against Jews and Christians.

littleb:

Haa! for being unlettered, at least he tried. What if he was a Phd?

There are many magnificient pieces of literature that are ascribed to unlettered men. So this excuse for the Quran is now outdated.

Shalom.

Olaadegbu never find out the meaning of infallible before he created the thread, and he came up with his first post, full of irrelevance. What the arguement! you need only a single statement to know that this "compilations" never revealed from Almighty GOD rather human deceptions from the many unkown men called "inspired men", according to pilgrim.1. Now, pilgrim.1 is afraid of his post being deleted by answers most of the questions. Well, your reasons for economising such truth is known, however, negate the obligation of divinity if you are truthful.

Without reasonable doubt, I ve seen that mankind have been greatly deceived, most especially on the religious aspect. With my own studies, which I believe could be similar to many great scholars of the world, is the concept behind Bible being the undisputed word of God. It is very amazing that many people have sink into this dogmatic belief in the context of scriptures, yet the teachings therein cannot be put into practice. The major insult to the God almighty.

Hmm, I think i ve done my own part as God ordained me. Yours is yours and mine is mine. prolonging arguement will never yeild any positive image rather dwelling in sins by parabolating on a single question and justification by inventing more lies.

Well, all being equal. There are news on narialand, kindly spread the news![size=12pt][/size]

" woe to those who write the book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah(God)," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby."

can anybody say Amen?

@littleb,

Making these kind of rhetorical noise is not the same thing as establishing a strong case for the Quran. I have discussed with many muslims on and off this forum and can excuse the fact you're new here and excited about nothing. You may be profoundly disturbed about your musings, but one can understand why answers to muslim assertions are being deleted - and I only pointed that out to wonder why such a thing should occur at all.

Rather than be so restless to "prove" your god is right, why don't you take a hike and enjoy what you miss in the muslim section? Filling pages with complaints does not demonstrate that you're intellgent enough to hold a rational and senisble discourse, and I wonder why the only thing you guys remain at is the busstop of accusations. What is really biting you?

Anyhow,

littleb:

Olaadegbu never find out the meaning of infallible before he created the thread, and he came up with his first post, full of irrelevance. What the arguement! you need only a single statement to know that this "compilations" never revealed from Almighty GOD rather human deceptions from the many unkown men called "inspired men", according to pilgrim.1. Now, pilgrim.1 is afraid of his post being deleted by answers most of the questions.

Lol. . . I have never been afraid of answers being deleted. That should demonstrate that those who read it and deleted them were not comfortable with them, and I have not seen clear pointers to counter what I stated earlier.

littleb:

Well, your reasons for economising such truth is known, however, negate the obligation of divinity if you are truthful.

I have done so and I'm not in the business of recycled arguments. The one thing that disgusts me in discussing with Muslims is the obvious duplicity that is ever repeated endlessly.

littleb:

Without reasonable doubt, I ve seen that mankind have been greatly deceived, most especially on the religious aspect.

Thanks for noticing - I was deceived in Islam, I saw it, and I left. Any further questions?

littleb:

With my own studies, which I believe could be similar to many great scholars of the world, is the concept behind Bible being the undisputed word of God. It is very amazing that many people have sink into this dogmatic belief in the context of scriptures, yet the teachings therein cannot be put into practice.

Study well and you will find that many Muslims around the world are the ones who deliberately contradict their own Quran with their disobedience. Nothing new there, so trying to levy this accusation always against Christians only further confirms why I cannot trust muslim apologists.

littleb:

The major insult to the God almighty.

I wonder why you guys never realize how much you practise that very thing.

littleb:

Hmm, I think i ve done my own part as God ordained me. Yours is yours and mine is mine.

Is that not the very thing I have always hinted at - that Muslims confess that they never worship the same God as Jews and Christians? Why then does the Quran claim that it does? Can you tell me that insulting and disrespecting the convictions of other people with your accusations is what God ordained you to do?

littleb:

prolonging arguement will never yeild any positive image rather dwelling in sins by parabolating on a single question and justification by inventing more lies.

Nothing new - I've seen the many invented lies from your brethren against the teachings of the prophets; I've always pointed out that such an attitude is a serious issue even in Islam.

littleb:

Well, all being equal. There are news on narialand, kindly spread the news![size=12pt][/size]

We have done so.

littleb:

" woe to those who write the book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah(God)," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby."

Please allow me to laugh here. Was the Quran not written by human hands? Do Muslims not regard such human-written documents as "from Allah"? And is the Quran not on sale for purchase in the market? So if this complaint has any substance, I'm sorry to observe that the "woe" applies where it belongs - to those selling the Quran.

littleb:

can anybody say Amen?

I cannot say "amen" to your woes. That is why I invite you guys to stay long enough to enjoy the love of Jesus Christ. Blessings to you, rather than woe!

Enjoy.

By the way, littleb, you will notice that up until now I've only been fielding questions and accusations from muslims and answering them. I have not sought to descend so low in my attitude of making false claims against the teachings of the prophets (eg., not at any time did I accuse the prophets of teaching "sexual intercourse" when they spoke of the covenant Israel had with God).

Anyhow, having come this far, I have a simple question for you if you may be kind enough to answer it. It appertains to the claim by Muslims that the Quran is the most scientifically accurate book among all. I'm not seeking to get embroiled in any prolonged argument; but after all the accusations against the Bible have been made, please leave those aside and let me know if you can answer just this one question for me. Please. I only have one question about your own defence of that book, so please kindly let me know if and when you may oblige me.

Thank you.

@Littleb: Amin. And any covenant that Jacob (AS) may have is under the bigger covenant which God had with His personal frined Ibrahim (AS)!

Instead of the backslapping, gentlemen, I made a simple request. Was that too hard?