seeklove:
@Pastor AIO
Germans are not that bad. My sister lived in Germany for more than ten years, she still thinks that Germans are the nicest poeple she ever met. She had a legitimate Job there, and she says that the poeple were so good to her and her family to the extent that when she was migrating to America, all her neigbors in Germany were crying like babies. So many Nigerians in Germany are into illigal things, which the Germans and their Government frown upon, this makes Nigerians say that they are bad.
Hitler decieved Germans. He is not a hero in Germany today. His party, Nazi is also very unpopuler. So many Germans, even during the world war, knew that the war was unjust, but some of them were just fighting out of petrotisim. Just as so many Americans think that the war in Iraq is wrong yet they fight out of petrotisim for America.
Hitler, Nazi and the world war was just one apple. don't use one event to qualify a whole poeple who have exsisted for a very long time.  Remenber that Hitler was a dictator. Racisim and racial superiority was introduced to Germans by the nazi party. I dont want to mention where Hitler leant that from. But research into it. Infact Hitler actually is not a full blooded German. Hitler has a Jewish background and some Historians say that he was actualy Austrian. He used the German poeple who were very gulible. Please research further into the issue.
Will you say that Americans are bad becuase of the iraqi war or becuase of bush?
If those things that you mentioned are the only bad things in history for a country as old as Germany(even older than America), then they are not bad at all.
Even the jews who are God's Chosen pople had some bad apples, like King Herod. But this doest not justify calling the jews a bad poeple. PLEESSSE!!!!

@justcool
Although I disagree with Pastor AIO but I do not see how the atrocities that he mentioned showed the correctness of your explanation. Please explain.

Only, King Herod was not a Jew.

justcool:
@pilgrim 1
I am happy that m_nwankwo has answered your questions. I only have this to add:
I found it strange that you (strong believer of the authenticity of Bible) can pursue that line of argument. The implication of your argument is that all the stories in the Bible is fallacy. Let me explain what I mean:

If I write a fiction, lets say I invent a fictitious character called "Monga," and I claim that Monga lives in the moon. Then if another author tells a story about a Monga who live in the moon; I can argue with certainty that he(the author) stole the idea from me. Because "Monga" is my invention.

But If there is actually a Monga that live in the moon. My accusation of the author stealing the idea from may not be true. The author could have gone to the moon and seen "Monga," or the author could have been vissited by Monga, or the author could have gained the knowledge of the existence of Monga by viewing the moon through telescope or by communicating with Monga electronically.

Lets lets apply this analogy to the Grail Message and the Bible.
If the things written in the Bible were true and actually exist, then it is possible that another person could see them too. I. e. if God actually exist and He gave Moses the ten commandments, this opens up a possibility that God can reveal the same ten commandment that He gave to Moses to another person. If you truly believe that every allusion to the ten commandment could have not come from any where else except the Bible. Then by implication, you are saying that God and the ten commandments are fictitious inventions made by Moses and other Bible writers.

When Jesus talked about the son of man, He(Jesus) did not draw His knowledge from the ancient scriptures; eventhough some of the ancient scripture before Jesus contained information about the son of man. When Jesus' utterances agree with a particular scripture, this goes to show the correctness of that particular scripture. It also shows that Jesus draw His knowledge from the same source as the writer of the scripture. To assert that Jesus draw His knowledge from that scripture is very wrong. If the source of the knowledge actually exists, then another can draw the same knowledge from HIM(the source), and not necessarily from any scripture.

Also, everything that has ever happened has been recorded by time. God can permit a person to access the archives of time, i.e. witness an event that happened thousands of years ago. This can be shown to that person in a dream. I do not want to boost of my experiences, but it might help if I tell you that I personally have once been allowed to see an event that happened thousands of years ago. This not just me, most people experience this at least once in there life times. Perharps you might have had such an experience too. You might write a book on what you were allowed to see, perhaps it is an event that was already recorded in history books. It will be very wrong for one to accuse you of plagiarising the history books which you might not have read. It will be wrong for one to accuse of drawing from the history books, just because your book mentioned the same events that is mentioned  in the History books.


All the things that you listed here,

Volume 1
3. The Anti-Christ
14. The Star of Bethlehem
Volume 2
16. Watch and pray!
20. The Lord's Prayer
45. The crucifixion of the Son of God and the Lord's Supper
46. Come down from the Cross!
47. This is My body! This is My blood!
52. I am the Resurrection and the Life, no man cometh to the Father but by me!
63. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit
66. Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do!
Volume 3
36. Ask, and it shall be given unto you!
38. Let there be Light!

These things actually exists, the utterances among the list we actually made, the events actually happened. And time has recorded them all.  God, out of His love, can permit Time to reveal them to him/her who it will help in his/her spiritual accent.

They are not only to be found in the Bible. They are all well kept in the achieves of "Time". God, who gave them is still alive and He still gives them to him so blessed.

My dear pilgrim Thanks and remain blessed.

You understand how hard it is for someone to claim that a popular book like the bible written years back before his birth did not influence what he wrote later in life, especially considering the similarities in expressions?

God would not need you to go back in time to see the event that happened in the past to which the bible covers, since He already have such stories already recorded in His word the bible.

Jesus His son didn't have to be taken back in time, nor did he start writing his own book, that would confirm that the Hebrew scriptures (OT) were accurate. Jesus, despite his knowledge drew from the scriptures available in his day.

God does not take people back in time to write or get experience He has already make it penned in a book by His servants. Otherwise, the circle won't end. That means I would need to be taken aback myself to behold the stories too. Maybe millions, if not billions, would want to be taken aback to behold ALL that happened in the past, including the life of Abdrushin himself.

I think pilgrim1 has a point there. You guys need a stronger argument.

pilgrim1:
@m_nwankwo,

Okay, I hear. Just a line or two to point out, though:

(a) the author of the Grail Message's 'In the Light of Truth' does not only "alludes" to issues delineated in the Bible, he actually draws upon them from the bible to arrive at his own interpretation. My point? Simply this - Abd-Ru-Shin would have no reference whatever for those subject the way he teaches about them if he had not got his underlying terminologies from the Bible. Let me give you an example:

~ where do you think Abd-Ru-Shin got his idea of the Ten Commandments from?

~ where do you think Abd-Ru-Shin got his idea of the Lord's Prayer from?

[img]http://www.grailmessage.com/TTCL.GIF[/img] This is a copy of the book by Abd-Ru-Shin that I have perused - without doubt, he takes every single line of the Lord's prayers as found in the Bible and arrives at his own interpretation. It is going to be difficult for anyone who has read that book to claim that he was only "alluding" to the Lord's Prayer and not drawing from the Bible on that very subject. The same could be said about The Ten Commandments - Abd-Ru-Shin has no message to offer about that if we deny that he got his ideas precisely from the decalogue in the Bible to arrive at his own teaching on that subject.

(b) What about the book itself - In The Light of Truth? Are certain chapters which draw from the Biblical terminologies giving it his own interpretations be regarded as you asserted - "authority in itself"? Just think for a minute - what other books did the Bible authors borrow spiritual terminologies in their inspiration as Abd-Ru-Shin did in consulting the Bible and actually re-interpreting Biblical subjects? Let's look at a few of them:
[list][list]
[li]Volume 1[/li]
[li]3. The Anti-Christ[/li]
[li]14. The Star of Bethlehem[/li]

[li]Volume 2[/li]
[li]16. Watch and pray![/li]
[li]20. The Lord's Prayer[/li]
[li]45. The crucifixion of the Son of God and the Lord's Supper[/li]
[li]46. Come down from the Cross![/li]
[li]47. This is My body! This is My blood![/li]
[li]52. I am the Resurrection and the Life, no man cometh to the Father but by me![/li]
[li]63. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit[/li]
[li]66. Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do![/li]

[li]Volume 3[/li]
[li]36. Ask, and it shall be given unto you![/li]
[li]38. Let there be Light![/li][/list][/list]

No, it is not a matter of mere "allusions" or even of "reference" - the point is that Abd-Ru-Shin would have no authority at all on those subjects found in his book 'In The Light of Truth' if he had not taken his ideas from the bible directly and only given them his own interpretations.

A few examples:

Where did Mr. Abd-Ru-Shin get the idea about Golgotha from in the chapter on The Book of Life (Vol. 1) when he stated: "Even as the Darkness moved over Golgotha when Jesus, the Living Light, departed from this earth, so is it now moving over mankind. . . " No, this is not about "allusion" or "reference"; rather, this is about the question of where Abd-Ru-Shin got his idea about Golgotha from?

Again, what prophecies did Abd-Ru-Shin mean when he says in The Star of Bethlehem: "At that time only a few recognised the Star as the fulfilment of the prophecies"? What prophecies - from where - which book? Can you please point us to another book other than the Bible to which Abd-Ru-Shin was directly drawing from in that chapter?

You see, my dear m_nwankwo, when people assume that Abd-Ru-Shin had nothing to do with the Bible and his works were totally an authority in themselves, I find that quite a untenable gist to digest. Why? Because there is no authority in the quote above if Abd-Ru-Shin was not referring to prophecies in the Bible! But we know he was - and that is why I already made the case that he drew heavily from the Bible and the claim otherwise is untenable.

Cheers.

Good one, Pilgrim.

pilgrim1:
@m_nwankwo,

Okay, I hear. Just a line or two to point out, though:

(a) the author of the Grail Message's 'In the Light of Truth' does not only "alludes" to issues delineated in the Bible, he actually draws upon them from the bible to arrive at his own interpretation. My point? Simply this - Abd-Ru-Shin would have no reference whatever for those subject the way he teaches about them if he had not got his underlying terminologies from the Bible. Let me give you an example:

~ where do you think Abd-Ru-Shin got his idea of the Ten Commandments from?

~ where do you think Abd-Ru-Shin got his idea of the Lord's Prayer from?

[img]http://www.grailmessage.com/TTCL.GIF[/img] This is a copy of the book by Abd-Ru-Shin that I have perused - without doubt, he takes every single line of the Lord's prayers as found in the Bible and arrives at his own interpretation. It is going to be difficult for anyone who has read that book to claim that he was only "alluding" to the Lord's Prayer and not drawing from the Bible on that very subject. The same could be said about The Ten Commandments - Abd-Ru-Shin has no message to offer about that if we deny that he got his ideas precisely from the decalogue in the Bible to arrive at his own teaching on that subject.

(b) What about the book itself - In The Light of Truth? Are certain chapters which draw from the Biblical terminologies giving it his own interpretations be regarded as you asserted - "authority in itself"? Just think for a minute - what other books did the Bible authors borrow spiritual terminologies in their inspiration as Abd-Ru-Shin did in consulting the Bible and actually re-interpreting Biblical subjects? Let's look at a few of them:
[list][list]
[li]Volume 1[/li]
[li]3. The Anti-Christ[/li]
[li]14. The Star of Bethlehem[/li]

[li]Volume 2[/li]
[li]16. Watch and pray![/li]
[li]20. The Lord's Prayer[/li]
[li]45. The crucifixion of the Son of God and the Lord's Supper[/li]
[li]46. Come down from the Cross![/li]
[li]47. This is My body! This is My blood![/li]
[li]52. I am the Resurrection and the Life, no man cometh to the Father but by me![/li]
[li]63. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit[/li]
[li]66. Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do![/li]

[li]Volume 3[/li]
[li]36. Ask, and it shall be given unto you![/li]
[li]38. Let there be Light![/li][/list][/list]

No, it is not a matter of mere "allusions" or even of "reference" - the point is that Abd-Ru-Shin would have no authority at all on those subjects found in his book 'In The Light of Truth' if he had not taken his ideas from the bible directly and only given them his own interpretations.

A few examples:

Where did Mr. Abd-Ru-Shin get the idea about Golgotha from in the chapter on The Book of Life (Vol. 1) when he stated: "Even as the Darkness moved over Golgotha when Jesus, the Living Light, departed from this earth, so is it now moving over mankind. . . " No, this is not about "allusion" or "reference"; rather, this is about the question of where Abd-Ru-Shin got his idea about Golgotha from?

Again, what prophecies did Abd-Ru-Shin mean when he says in The Star of Bethlehem: "At that time only a few recognised the Star as the fulfilment of the prophecies"? What prophecies - from where - which book? Can you please point us to another book other than the Bible to which Abd-Ru-Shin was directly drawing from in that chapter?

You see, my dear m_nwankwo, when people assume that Abd-Ru-Shin had nothing to do with the Bible and his works were totally an authority in themselves, I find that quite a untenable gist to digest. Why? Because there is no authority in the quote above if Abd-Ru-Shin was not referring to prophecies in the Bible! But we know he was - and that is why I already made the case that he drew heavily from the Bible and the claim otherwise is untenable.

Cheers.

I love the way you present your point. Relaxed , intelligently and with facts.

mnwankwo:


The Grail Message do not draw from the bible as you seem to suggest. First I mentioned that the reference to Grail Message is the TRUTH. That implies that wherever is the Truth will be found in the Grail Message. If there are Truth in the bible, in any other sacred text, in science etc, you will find that in the Grail Message. When such happens, there are two possible explanations: one is that the author got his authority from these sources which seems to be your persuation. The other possibility is that the author knows the Truth and as such what is true in the bible will be found in the Grail Message. My persuation is of the later. The Ten Commandments and the Lords Prayer are the Truth and that is why you find it in the Grail Message. Therefore the ten commandments and the lords prayer were drawn from the Truth, that is they were drawn from GOD. Moses who was the instrument that God used to make the ten commandments available to mankind drew from the Truth and Jesus who gave mankind the the Lords prayer also drew from the Truth. In most  cultures people have noted that yam gives yam, tomatoes gives tomatoes. If Abdrushin then says that you reap what you sow, does it mean he drew the knowlewdge that yam gives rise to yam from these cultures? Certainly not. 



Not at all in my view. These lectures are drawn from the Truth. The Grail Message is a continuation and consolidation of the message of Jesus, the son of God. Therefore the Grail Message discusses in detail the teachings of Jesus, the son of God. The teachings of Jesus can be found in the TRUTH, in God and that is from where ABDRUSHIN draw his message.



Abdrushin drew from the Truth. The events of Golgotha is indelibly written in the book of life, that is the living law of God. Not just the event of Golgotha. In the book series titled transmitted writings, Abdrushin permitted blessed ones to document the mankind spiritual history from the very beginnig to the end. You may have to read books titled, past eras aweaken vols 1, 2, 3, From past Millenia and the Forerunner book series.



The prophecies are again written in the book of life, the living law of God. He did not draw from the bible or any other book. He draw from out of himself, from the Truth. My perception is that Abdrushin saw the begining, the development and the end and thus he has personal knowledge of the events he is describing. Abdrushin even gave where the star of Bethlehem originated, its course and development. Are all these just interpretations of the star of Bethlehem? I wonder. Besides the prophecy of the star of betlehem was known to Zoroaster and his followers. I recommend that you  read another transmitted writing " Zoroaster- Life and work of the Forerunner in Persia" You can also check out this book from Amazon "Tom Kay- When the Comet Runs."



My dear sister Pilgrim, the Grail Message drew from the eternal Truth. What ever prophecies or events that has happened or will happen is written in the book of life. It is possible to go backward or forward and draw from Time, from the laws of God what was, what is, what is to come. Stay blessed.

How can you say a man draw from himself when there is a book or record that predates his thinking. It does not make logical sense