This is the fourth time tbaba makes random ill-remarks about me. This time, am stepping up.

tbaba1234:

Usermane is a 'quranist'... He does not even call himself muslim..

You have this obscession with tags; "A is a shiite, B is a quranist, X is an ahmadi". It is your smart means of dissuading the naive from ever hearing the other side of the story.
If i ever stated that i wasn't a muslim, it was simply a move to dissociate myself from "muslims" like you who teach that the Prophet slept with a kid, had a female poet assasinated for condemning him, ordered a woman to breastfeed an unrelated man in other to legalise private meetings and other shameful beliefs which you hold more noble than a menstrating woman performing salat.

tbaba1234:
Wrong place to get any information.

Irrelevant, just to prove your word, why haven't you sunnis invited us "quranists" to live debates as you do with the Christians notably in the days of Ahmed Deedat? We 've challenged you on occasions but you 've always backed down. Instead you 've labelled us apostates to be killed, banned our books, articles, video channels, websites and persecuted us.

Be careful whom you write off, dude. You are clearly losing your touch.

usermane:

If i ever stated that i wasn't a muslim, it was simply a move to dissociate myself from "muslims"

You see Usermane, in my opinion, you still wrong if you made above statement. This alone goes against Quran. It means you have no right to interprete Islam in your way and want muslims to adhere with your creed.

In Sura Haj ayah 78

"And strive for Allah with the striving due to Him. He has chosen you and has not placed upon you in the religion any difficulty. [It is] the religion of your father, Abraham. Allah named you "Muslims" before [in former scriptures] and in this [revelation] that the Messenger may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people. So establish prayer and give zakah and hold fast to Allah . He is your protector; and excellent is the protector, and excellent is the helper.

If Allah named us muslims and you say you are not, i cant take you seriously. Not all muslims believe in some stupid things in bogus ahadith. Therefore, it's unfair to hold all muslims responsible. You know too well that the issue of Aisha (r) is not ijma. It contradicts Quran. Whether Sunni, Shite or whatever they all still within common creed unlike yours. You say you are not muslim and you interpret the way you deem fit. So why do you think you should be taken seriously. You said Salat is NOT obligatory. That "Iqomu Salat" mentioned in Quran is just ordinary prayer. One may choose to offer it or not. And you want us to take you seriously?. My point is I dont have to agree with tbaba or others. You are just way out of line. I dont support persecuting you but i support you must be challenged and silenced bcus you breed misguidance.

Challenging you must be official. Not online. However you want to do it must be recorded and uploaded online.

Example, I believe just what this man believes. That doesnt make us less Muslims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUM1tBxF9hg

Pastor vs Ebola survivors
http://naijagists.com/ebola-survivor-testimony-causes-panic-as-pastor-church-members-ran-for-cover/

See Empiree, i gave up on you yesterday because you don't seem to read between lines.
I never said salat isn't obligatory, i said no man can compel another man to perform it or punish him for not performing it. Salat is obligatory in the sense that God punishes defaulters, no more or less.

Then as per the issue of not calling myself muslim, go read my last post in my thread ; Ten Misconceptions Among Muslims. Am tired of repeating myself.

Lastly, if you for a second think that people like you who advocate death for apostacy, stoning of adulterers, or offensive Jihad against "kafir" nations to install sharia; should be the ones to silence us, then fare well.

usermane: See Empiree, i gave up on you yesterday because you don't seem to read between lines.

I read you loud and clear my friend. Yes, give up on me but I wont give up on you until you return to us No offense.

I never said salat isn't obligatory, i said no man can compel another man to perform it or punish him for not performing it. Salat is obligatory in the sense that God punishes offenders, no more or less.[/quote]

Taqqiyah! You said it. Not necessary yesterday post. You said in other post i think before hackers wipe off "our sins". I asked you and you said it's just ordinary prayer not organized one. You think i dont know what I am talking about?. Remember your thread on Jizya, i said in my reply that when you are chatting with non-Muslims, that is real you. But when you talk to Empiree, you tune down. Same thing you just did here my friend. Okay, from now i agree Salat in your view is the same as obligatory "Iqomu Salat". case close

Then as per the issue of not calling myself muslim, go read my last post in my thread ; Ten Misconceptions Among Muslims. Am tired of repeating myself.[/quote]

Another Taqqiyah. You never clear yourself on this really. The first time i met you here, i was reading your post talking to non-muslims. There you said you are "progressive muslim". I understand that. Then at some point when i was talking to you, AIBaqir said you arent muslim...that you only have western view of things. You made no objection. Then, in our several posts, others ask if you are muslim?. you never gave direct answer. You always quote "Muslim" to describe so called. It seems you basically saying that you are adherent of Islam but you are not Muslim, isnt?. Brother, you wasting precious time. Surah Hajj vs 78 is very clear. It's easy. Are you Muslim?. Yes, I am. case close

[s]Lastly, if you for a second think that people like you who advocate death for apostacy, stoning of adulterers, or offensive Jihad against "kafir" nations to install sharia; should be the ones to silence us, then fare well.[/s] [/quote]

Can you point to me where i made mention of these pls?. I even explained "Stoning adulterer" that it's not in the Quran. This was at the time i first met you. You havent understood me yet. You see, my friend, this is what i was trying to explain to you but anytime i make a move, you quickly open thread going ga ga gagga on muslims again (i:e Your Bemoaning Media Thread). Thats why i left you to yourself sometimes. It is you who vilifies Muslims all the time.

usermane: See Empiree,

Lastly, if you for a second think that people like you who advocate death for apostacy, stoning of adulterers, or [b]offensive Jihad against "kafir" nations to install sharia; [/b]should be the ones to silence us, then fare well.

Now, let me explain the bold to the best way i can. If apostasy means to renounce faith, I do not support "death for apostasy". Apostasy can also refers to renouncing political belief.
See if you can get some info from Olabowale here....
https://www.nairaland.com/185191/death-penalty-muslim-apostates

If you can remember a while back I explained this my friend. And listen good. Surah 2:256 does not mean if you are a muslim, you dont have to pray if you dont want to. No, that's not the meaning. If you are muslim it's obligatory on you to pray Salat and other tenets. If you dont, consequences is btw you and God so long as you dont publicly encouraging others. "they dont have to pray if they dont want to". If you do this publicly, which is what you propagate, State has the right to persecute you. This is a ground for fasad.
(IT'S OBLIGATORY FOR PARENTS TO TEACH AND ENFORCE SALAT ON THEIR CHILDREN). They are minor. They are to be guided.

Actually you said in your recent post this week that "5 pillars" is Sunni and Shia religion not islam. Correct me if I am wrong. I am not sure if you made this statement on NL or your website because i was on your website this wk. I do know for sure that you made statement like this.

@bold-blue, I do not believe in preemptive war or preemptive persecution. However, "preemptive" as in arming yourself to teeth against enemy is a YES YES YES for me. I think you are just being sadistic when you said above. What sense does it make to force your political way of life on others. Show me where Muslim nation is doing that today?. No. Absolutely none. It's the secular West forcing themselves on others. Telling others to embrace democracy. Cant you see?. Here is cartoon character....watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee6SdmmCN5Y

"Stoning For Adultery", even though "SuShi" Ulama have accepted this doesnt make it right. Surah 24:2 explains this. But Ulama said if it's married male or female, punishment is stoning according to Hadith. I longer believe this going 7yrs now after my independent studies. This is a matter of methodology. Quran sits in judgement over Hadith. If both sources speak on the same subject but defer, the right methodology is to stick to Quran regardless of what's in the hadith.
Therefore, I believe that punishment for adultery for married and unmarried is flogging. I am aware that not all muslims agree with this. Stoning adulterer to death is in previous revealed Holy Books (Torah and Gospel) and still in there. But praise be to Allah that followers of Muhammad (Allah's Blessing be upon him) enforced what Jews and Christians shamefully abandoned. So, Usermane should not crucify "SuShi" (Sunni and Shia) for implementing this law. You should be proud that Muslims uphold Judeo-Christian law.

This is exactly what Nabi Muhammad (saw) did when he arrived in Medina. He enforced punishment for adultery using Jewish Book. Jews never practiced this law. They were stunned when he carried it out. This was to show them that he is indeed Prophet of Allah. Stoning Adulterer was in effect until revelation (Surah Nur Ayah 2) came down changing the law. The punishment is now flogging NOT stoning. It doesn't bother me whether other Muslims accept this or not. Can you now press "reset button" in your brain and return to mainstream.

LIKE THIS.....

Why cherry picking hadiths, Empiree? I tried that originally but i found it too dishonest to adopt, so i ended up rejecting everything.

According to sunni theologians, hadith can even abrogate verses of the Qur'an. According to them, all the hadith in the six main sunni hadith literature are authentic and must not be denied by anyone who claim to believe in "QURAN AND SUNNAH". Saudi Muftis, Zakir Naik et historic sunni scholars like Ibn Kathir, Ibn Tamiyyah, Imam Shaafi all have the consensus that apostates must be killed, adulterers must be stoned, sharia states like Saudi should invade "infidel" states like US to install sharia.
Those are your clergies, the ones whose interpretation of Islam must remain unchallenged as far as sunnism is concerned. Ask tbaba1234 if you disagree.

If you tell me you don't take an hadith because it contradict the Quran, then what of those that do no contradict Qur'an but prescribe or prohibit what the Qur'an does not? How do you decide their authenticity?

Oh, and i read olabowale 's post. But i judge orthodox muslims by their religious texts. Your friend was only being an apologist there, it is only unfortunate that educated persons like you is satisfied with his explanation.

Lastly, let nairaland be nairaland. Stop bringing free-minds' talks here. If you have any question or doubt, sign up and table it there instead of coming here to judge them. They 'll be happy to attend to you. The mods there are way diplomatic than those here.

@ Usermane, I understand you but you still wrong. It's not about picking hadith rather, it's about Madhhab. Those people you mentioned are far right extreme. You are far left extreme. Instead of making 90 degree u-turn, you can manage it without stepping out of mainstream. Not even Shia can stand your creed. You just wrong.

What you need to do is learn proper methodology. Dont stick to just one. I learned from different schools, sheiks, fellas like you. I dont attach myself. You can learn methodology without labeling yourself this or that. Just because those people you mentioned up there said whatever they want doesnt mean you should renounced the whole thing altogether. There is a way around it. It's about learning usermane, it's about learning.

The first methodology to learn is Qur'an sits in judgement over everything. Nothing else stands in the same standard. Thats what i explained in my earlier post. I implore you as brother to rethink. Do yourself a big favor. Return to Islam. I have issues with mainstream Sunni creed and in Shia as well but doesn't mean i have to make u-turn like you did.

Remember there is hadith which speaks about Allah will raise some people at the end of every century to rectify His religion. I believe they are here in our time. Their creed, despite being part of mainstream, defer from people you put up there. Their religious and political interpretations are magnificent. Try to explore. Final decision is your anyways.

An interesting discussion by Empiree and Usermane. I never knew Empiree was male (until I saw a brother address him as "bro"

Quick question for Usermane: Do you believe in the 5 daily prayers? Or differently put: what's your take on the 5 daily prayers?

I'm just curious.

@Empiree, if you conclude that i rejected hadith based on the number of hate, violent or shameful reports i find therein, then you 've jumped off the gun. There are too many unresolved issues with hadith that i can't begin to mention here.

Then, return to the mainstream? I guess you are trying to say "unite". My friend, there is no realism in that. If i decide to adopt your stance today, i 'll endanger myself. People like you have no say in the mainstream, you are considered weak. The extremists decide everything in orthodox Islam. There are stories of muslims like you. They all thought it was possible to reject one or two things while remaining "mainstream", what were their end? You can google Salman Taseer.

Hkana, i 'll be back.

ـ رسولُ اللهِ‏ِ (صَلَّيَ اللهُ عَلَيهِ وَ آلِهِ) : الإسلامُ حُسنُ الخُلقِ.

The Prophet (SAWA) said, ‘Islam is to be good-natured .’[Kanz al-`Ummal, no. 5225]

Hkana: An interesting discussion by Empiree and Usermane. I never knew Empiree was male (until I saw a brother address him as "bro"

Quick question for Usermane: Do you believe in the 5 daily prayers? Or differently put: what's your take on the 5 daily prayers?

I'm just curious.

Am also curious to know..

especially how he used to observe is own

Usermane, alright. I'll be expecting.

Hkana:
Quick question for Usermane: Do you believe in the 5 daily prayers? Or differently put: what's your take on the 5 daily prayers?

I'm just curious.

Though its good to hear from the horses' mouth. I've chatted with him long ago and part of my questions was the above. In his understanding, you are free to perform "salat" anyhow you like not necessarily doing Qiyam (standing), ruku (bowing) and Sujud (prostrating). He justify this by saying the method is not specify in the Quran and since he didn't believe in the hadith, he switch to another verse of the holy Quran where Allah says:

"Say: "Call upon Allah, or call upon
Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is
well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names.
Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between."

Note the bolded part above "thy prayer" (bi SALAT ika). In short, he understand salat as supplication of your wish and not the mechanical genuflection etc.

I salute his misguidance that day.

Anyway let him come on board once again!

TheBigUrban2:


Truth is bitter.


All of you should just stop wasting time and just call Usermane a munafiq.


#I know you want to

What do you atheist know? Nada! Username is not even a muslim not to mention of being a munafiq. It is interesting to know that Munafiq are also muslim.

usermane: @Empiree, if you conclude that i rejected hadith based on the number of hate, violent or shameful reports i find therein, then you 've jumped off the gun. There are too many unresolved issues with hadith that i can't begin to mention here.

Then, return to the mainstream? I guess you are trying to say "unite". My friend, there is no realism in that. If i decide to adopt your stance today, i 'll endanger myself. People like you have no say in the mainstream, you are considered weak. The extremists decide everything in orthodox Islam. There are stories of muslims like you. They all thought it was possible to reject one or two things while remaining "mainstream", what were their end? You can google Salman Taseer.

Hkana, i 'll be back.

@bold, is not about that at least for now. It's about practicing Islam appropriately. For now, you crossed the line. What this or that does is none of your business. That excuse will not avail you afterlife. I dont now why you worry about them. Maybe you should read a book written by Dr. Israr Ahamad (of blessed memory). He explained in his 42 pages how different muslim groups, ideologies, methodologies are directly and indirectly working for islam. He said sometimes they clash, sometimes they reconcile. Each is a dot plays it role in islam. There is connection somehow with all. You just gone out of Islamic context. Thats my point..

AlBaqir:

What do you atheist know? Nada! Username is not even a muslim not to mention of being a munafiq. It is interesting to know that Munafiq are also muslim.

I studied islam.

TheBigUrban2:


I studied islam.

There is a difference between knowing a path and threading the path.

AlBaqir: ـ رسولُ اللهِ‏ِ (صَلَّيَ اللهُ عَلَيهِ وَ آلِهِ) : الإسلامُ حُسنُ الخُلقِ.

The Prophet (SAWA) said, ‘Islam is to be good-natured .’[Kanz al-`Ummal, no. 5225]

Interesting compilation right there by Toyib Olawuyi. Still reading.

@bold, sounds like a phrase in Surah Khaf

SALAT

1. Salat was prescribed for Abraham who passed it down to his descendants and this was continously passed to later generations. Muhammad already familiar with salat before Prophethood was simply ordered to perform it.[21:73, 73:20]

2. Salat is performed daily at specific times. So contrary to the mainstream, it cannot be delayed or performed earlier. It is a compulsory rite in the sense that God punishes defaulters but non can be forced or penalise for not doing it.
The best a man can do for defaulters is to exhort them them[Quran 20:132]

3. Salat is performed to commemorate God alone. Uttering other names as Muhammad or Ali in salat, is wrong and idolatry[Quran 29:45, 20:14, 72:18].

4. States of impurities like urine, faeces, sex, orgasm or intoxication render one impure for salat untill he is purified. Note that God clearly listed out what impurities are in context of salat. Physical impurities differ from spiritual impurities. Many are ignorant of this.[4:43, 5:6]

5. Salat is proceeded with ablution[Quran 5:6].

It is performed facing the Sacred Mosque[2:142-150].
It involves acts like standing, bowing and prostrating. The scripture is recited, God is praised and glorified during it. Recitation is aloud.[Quran 17:110]

Personally, i perform mine as the mainstream do with variations though but i don't agree that other than that, any other interpretation of salat is wrong. Therefore, i believe that

1. There are no fixed numbers of rakas.
2. Recitation language doesn't matter.
3. There is no extra reward in performing it singly or in multiples.
4. Modest dress should be worn(Quran 7:31)

AlBaqir:

There is a difference between knowing a path and threading the path.

True talk

usermane: SALAT

1. Salat was prescribed for Abraham who passed it down to his descendants and this was continously passed to later generations. Muhammad already familiar with salat before Prophethood was simply ordered to perform it.[21:73]

2. Salat is performed daily at specific times. So contrary to the mainstream, it cannot be delayed or performed earlier. It is a compulsory rite in the sense that God punishes defaulters but non can be forced or penalise for not doing it.
The best a man can do for defaulters is to exhort them them[Quran 20:132]

3. Salat is performed to commemorate God alone. Uttering other names as Muhammad or Ali in salat, is wrong and idolatry[Quran 29:45, 20:14, 72:18].


4. States of impurities like urine, faeces, sex, orgasm or intoxication render one impure for salat untill he is purified. Note that God clearly listed out what impurities are in context of salat. Physical impurities differ from spiritual impurities. Many are ignorant of this.[4:43, 5:6]

5. Salat is proceeded with ablution[Quran 5:6].

It is performed facing the Sacred Mosque[2:142-150].
It involves acts like standing, bowing and prostrating. The scripture is recited, God is praised and glorified during it. Recitation is aloud.[Quran 17:110]

Personally, i perform mine as the mainstream do with variations though but i don't agree that other than that, any other interpretation of salat is wrong. Therefore, i believe that

1. There are no fixed numbers of rakas.
2. Recitation language doesn't matter.
3. There is no extra reward in performing it singly or in multiples.
4. Modest dress should be worn(Quran 7:31)

There is no point arguing with you, but I will advice you with an hadith of prophet Muhammad Which says:
Whosoever believes in Allah and the last day, should say that which is good or keep quiet.

I pray Allah guides you aright.

Empiree:

Interesting compilation right there by Toyib Olawuyi. Still reading.

@bold, sounds like a phrase in Surah Khaf

Take your time brother and digest. That is just the beginning in sha Allah. May Allah give us the right understanding.

Kanz ummal (treasures of doers of good deeds) is one of a collection of Sunni hadith compiled by Muhadith Ali Muttaqi al-Hindi (888AH).

@userrmane, I am sure you know what you doing. But it makes no sense arguing over this. I am also aware many have talked to you in past. So may I ask you what these verses mean to you?

Below are some verses in the Qur'an, which prove the fact that we must obey and follow the Messenger Muhammad (SAW) if we are real Muslims (i.e. submitters):

3:31. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

3:32. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)."...

3:132. And obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) that you may obtain mercy.

4:13. ...and whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), to abide therein, and that will be the great success.

4:59. O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger...

4:64. We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed...

4:69. And whosoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His Grace...

4:80. He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allah...

5:92. And obey Allah and the Messenger...

8:1. ...and obey Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), if you are believers.

8:20. O you who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him (Messenger Muhammad SAW)...

8:46. And obey Allah and His Messenger...

9:71. ...and obey Allah and His Messenger...

24:52. And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (SAW), fears Allah, and keeps his duty (to Him), such are the successful ones.

24:54. Say: "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger...

24:56. ...and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) that you may receive mercy (from Allah).

33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow...

33:33. ...and obey Allah and His Messenger...

33:71. ...And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (SAW) he has indeed achieved a great achievement.

47:33. O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)...

48:17. ...And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), He will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow (Paradise)...

59:7. ...And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it)...

64:12. Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)...

TheBigUrban2:


I studied islam.

You know, i really need to get up close and personal with you. I appreciate your posts most times. Aside the fact that our beliefs may be different, i find you more inclined to God than a lot who proclaim faith in God. You have a commendable understanding of Islam and the affairs of the middle east than many i 've met here.

There are able folks out there who dont want to work. They love getting "welfare money" or worse still, indulge in illegal money making activities. Here is an hard working disabled carpenter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7Ww4YVQuzY

^E be like say na Tafsir ibn kathir you are familiar with. Wait till you see Tafsir username

Thanks Usermane, I've seen it.

On your indifference to hadith, I'd wanted to ask you your understanding of this verse:

"59:7. ...And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it)..."

AlBaqir: ^E be like say na Tafsir ibn kathir you are familiar with. Wait till you see Tafsir username

No kill me with laugh

BTW: where Tbaba1234 go sef?

TheBigUrban2:


I studied islam.

Then, what happened to you?