Rilwayne001:

Nothing will be very proud of you

rationalmind:

Tell that to Mohammed

Joshthefirst: 4 is wrong for Pete's sake. Especially the bolded.

plaetton:

This is laughable coming from someone who should know a lot about microbiology.
In fact, manipulating the body's biochemistry for their own benefit is exactly what all microbial flora do.
How can you ever deny that?

Let me ask you, does a virus manipulate the host cell's dna for it's own benefit?
Pls answer.

Joshthefirst: We talk about the bodie's NATURAL microflora here, not pathogenic viral cells. I have summarized simply the relationship between the body and these bacteria. The brain relies on some of their products to sustain neural processes, and the body has taken advantage of their 'prescence' to help in the manifestation of some genes and so on. Of course, there are cases where things go wrong sometimes, resulting in abnormal psychological and mental conditions, which can be treated.

For you to say that they willingly interfere with our conscious choices, actually leading us to take actions for their benefits is idiotic and laughable on a grand scale. I cannot even believe i am having this conversation with a so called learned man. This is what happens when people try to subjectively twist scientific facts to match their beliefs.

plaetton:

Big laugh .
The thing about you Josh, which I have mentioned severally, is that you say one thing in one sentence, and then contradict it with a second sentence.

Here, for example, you agree that they influence mental development, immunity , as well as susceptibility to certain diseases, notably neurological malfunctions, yet in another sentence you are denying the LOGICALLY OBVIOUS fact that they therefore interfere with our body chemistry FOR THEIR OWN SURVIVAL NEEDS, and in the process influence our social behavior.

Be careful with your choice of words. I have been patient with you.
You are setting up yourself for a BIG BUTTHURT.

We will soon see who is being idiotic in this issue.

Joshthefirst: Nonsense. Lolz. Is this supposed to be a valid rebuttal?



Notice how plaetton has begun to insert subtle words to try to buffer up his foolish conclusions.


One big question: how do these microbes influence the brain development and neurological processes?

Layman's Answer: They produce neurochemicals and aid in neural processes, they also produce substances that the body utilizes in the expression of certain genes.

Plaetton makes it look like these microbes deliberately regulate amounts of the beneficial substances they produce or directly influence our biochemical pathways for their own benefits

Idiotic and laughable.
Pathetic.

Joshthefirst:
Plaetton makes it look like these microbes deliberately regulate amounts of the beneficial substances they produce or directly influence our biochemical pathways for their own benefits

Idiotic and laughable.
Pathetic.

plaetton: ^^^
Now, eat your own words joshthefirst ,so that we can move along on this thread.

plaetton: Ok.
Here comes the first wave of butthurt for joshthefirst.

You stated that microbes do not deliberately manipulate our biochemistry for their own benefit. Right ?
You even called me derogatory names for suggesting so. Right?

Well, you are dead wrong, sir.
Never argue from a position of ignorance.


http://mpkb.org/home/pathogenesis/microbiota/interaction

Here are some important excerpts from the text:
Note the bolded in RED.

1. "The genomes and the respective proteomes of microbes in the body frequently interact with those expressed by their human hosts. This is a key part of what is know as the interactome. The “massive”1 co-occurrence of protein-coding genes between microbes and humans speaks to the survival advantage of such homology, and the extent to which sequence overlap may play a key role in disease. Indeed, manipulation of host cell fate and orchestrated choreography of inflammatory responses are recurrent themes in the strategies of microbial pathogens. 2 Bacteria affect host-cell pathways and human gene expression through a number of increasingly well-documented ways."

2.
" Expanding on this work, Trost et al. performed a pentapeptide and hexapeptide analyses of sequence similarities between bacterial and human DNA.9 He demonstrated that there does not exist a single human protein that does not harbor a bacterial pentapeptide or hexapeptide motif; as the team writes, “not even one.”

3. Bacterial pathogens have used many clever strategies to exploit the interior of host cells to their benefit, by manipulating intracellular trafficking pathways or targeting specific intracellular niches. The challenge facing the cell-mediated immune system is to detect and eliminate these pathogens.

M.S. Glickman and E.G. Pamer 31

Conversely, harmful bacteria may deregulate genes mediating energy metabolism, and can produce toxins that mutate DNA, affecting the nervous and immune systems. The outcome is various forms of chronic disease, including obesity, diabetes and even cancers.32 33 34

Liping Zhao

plaetton: Ok.
Here comes the first wave of butthurt for joshthefirst.

You stated that microbes do not deliberately manipulate our biochemistry for their own benefit. Right ?
You even called me derogatory names for suggesting so. Right?

Well, you are dead wrong, sir.
Never argue from a position of ignorance.


http://mpkb.org/home/pathogenesis/microbiota/interaction

Here are some important excerpts from the text:
Note the bolded in RED.

1. "The genomes and the respective proteomes of microbes in the body frequently interact with those expressed by their human hosts. This is a key part of what is know as the interactome. The “massive”1 co-occurrence of protein-coding genes between microbes and humans speaks to the survival advantage of such homology, and the extent to which sequence overlap may play a key role in disease. Indeed, manipulation of host cell fate and orchestrated choreography of inflammatory responses are recurrent themes in the strategies of microbial pathogens. 2 Bacteria affect host-cell pathways and human gene expression through a number of increasingly well-documented ways."

2.
" Expanding on this work, Trost et al. performed a pentapeptide and hexapeptide analyses of sequence similarities between bacterial and human DNA.9 He demonstrated that there does not exist a single human protein that does not harbor a bacterial pentapeptide or hexapeptide motif; as the team writes, “not even one.”

3. Bacterial pathogens have used many clever strategies to exploit the interior of host cells to their benefit, by manipulating intracellular trafficking pathways or targeting specific intracellular niches. The challenge facing the cell-mediated immune system is to detect and eliminate these pathogens.

M.S. Glickman and E.G. Pamer 31

Conversely, harmful bacteria may deregulate genes mediating energy metabolism, and can produce toxins that mutate DNA, affecting the nervous and immune systems. The outcome is various forms of chronic disease, including obesity, diabetes and even cancers.32 33 34

Liping Zhao

Joshthefirst: You Sir, are foolish.

Your very excerpt exposes your foolishness

I made sure to explain that the body makes good use of its relationship with the natural microflora, except in imbalance during disease conditions, which can(or could) be treated clearly pointing out the stupidity in your assumption that at any moment in time we're all being influenced directly by the bacteria living within us.

You then bring up an article clearly confirming my point that during disease conditions(unusual conditions of unwellness), there is an imbalance, which causes disease.

And you think you have a pointpoint.
Another ignorant man is cheering you on. Well done sir.
You have truly proved me wrong.


Arrant nonsense.

plaetton:
Mr Einstein, the bone of contention here is not whether is no whether a relationship exist or not between the microbial flora or the body, or whether imbalances occur or not. No sir, that has long been agreed upon.

The bone of contention here, sir artful dodger, is the the microbes deliberately and choreographically MANIPULATE our body chemistry for their EXCLUSIVE BENEFIT.

The scientific article repeated that assertion many times. It is not even a subject of debate.
I can always excuse and pardon you for ignorance and empty-headed silliness, but I cannot excuse you for dishonestly, which you have clearly displayed thus far.

Joshthefirst: pathogens deliberately manipulate our body chemistry for their benefit. This results in disease conditions which the article clearly stated.

You are the one clearly being dishonest and obtuse

Geophem: sir, do ds microbe responsible, for stealing, raping, corruption, killing , giving alms or dy are only resposible for our body system which leads to disease...... Infact ar ds microbes responsible for ds ur write up and me deciding to read it.....?? Please answer my next questn might be too terrible for u to answer, if u ar scientific dn be logical

plaetton:

Ha ha ha!

So you finally eat your own words after doing your belated homework?

Well then, I await your apology for all the insults.

Zikdik:
What is this one saying?

AlfaSeltzer: To think that a simple antibiotic can kill God.

Joshthefirst:

What are you talking about for Pete's sake?
Smh.


Are the natural microflora taking residence in our bodies all pathogens? Or are they natural microbes the body has formed a beneficial relationship with?

Answer directly please. No dodging.

LordReed: @plaetton

1. Are these microbes intelligent?

2. Are these microbes conscious?

3. What level of social organisation do these microbes exhibit? Hive mind? Polygamous? Monogamous?

plaetton:

I will let you answer those questions.

The relevant points here is that they outnumber your body cells by 10 to 1.
They mix their DNA with yours.
They cleverly and choreographically manipulate your body chemistry to suit themselves.
They affect mental development, as well as immunity to certain diseases. Many many diseases , including neurological disorders are now being associated with their activities.

If all the above are true, then a smart fella like you should be able to imagine the kind and degree of influence these 100 trillion gods ,that make up more than 90% of your body cells, should exert on you,your will and your volition.

LordReed:

Yes I will answer the question since you've decided to go on the dodge.

The microbes are not intelligent, they are not conscious and they exhibit an agglomeration that is barely worth calling a social structure.

So how is an intelligent, conscious creature exhibiting elaborate social structures supposed to be mimicking an unintelligent, unconscious creature?

I think your confusion lies in the fact that scientists use anthropomorphisms when referring to these microbes so it makes it look like they're organising consciously or intelligently. Their influence on us is not that of a puppeteer behind the scenes. Why is it that despite all their influence we still ingest antibiotics?

Man is greater than the sum of his parts that is why we have what we call free will so you can ignore many influences even the ones in your body. Call it an illusion but I'm hard pressed to see any slavery to these microbes.

plaetton:

You see , Lord read.
There is something I clearly do not understand about people like you who seem intelligent.

Now, you can argue about opinion, my opinion. That is fine and encouraged.
But , if you are going to argue against scientifically established facts, then the onus is on you to first of all show the incorrectness or contradict the scientific findings, or , you can show your own research or cite others that proves them wrong.

I really get frustrated when someone tries to use his own ill-informed religiously jaundiced opinion to attack a scientifically established fact.
How do you do that?

If you had spent even 10 minutes on google beforehand, you wouldn't have posted the kind of ill-informed nonsense above .

I really don't know what else to say to you.
I tire.

Your first set of questions were juvenile, in light of all the facts already presented.

Whether microbes are conscious, intelligent(whatever that means to you), etc was not part of my op.

My Op is that they are far greater in number than even our own body cells, and that their influences on our biological and and social lives (our will and volitions) are extremely great, far far greater than the average person could imagine.
That is a non-debatable scientifically established fact.
Simple , simple!

Perhaps your mind is too opaque to even consider that microscopic organisms, in their very short lifespans, could, over the billions of yours of their existence, evolve a social structure.

I really cannot understand you guys who live to fight science, even while availing yourselves all the products of scientific progress.

I shake my head.

In conclusion, You are very very free to challenge scientific facts, BUT please do so in a scientific manner, not through ill-informed nonsensical opinion.

LordReed:

Your anti-religious bigotry is putting blinkers on your mind such that you are incapable of reasoning like a normal human being.

Dummy I am challenging your stufid opinion not scientific fact. Did the scientists ever state that we are mimicking the microbes?

Gosh honestly you are such a bigot! I never mentioned anything about religion or whatnot only for you be attacking my personality. You must be suffering from a persecution complex because nowhere in my post did I attack science. I challenged your nonsensical conclusions (which you are fond of doing). You come here to say things science didn't say and when challenged you cry 'you hate science!' Grow up please.

My friend reason like a normal person and stop being a stufid bigot.

plaetton:

Dummy, I don' think you know the meaning of bigotry.
I attack religious beliefs, the foundations of most silly religious beliefs, as do all non-religious people. I do not ever attack a person on the basis of religion.

Again if you had ANY comprehension skills or any iota of common sense, you would have realized that when I used the "mimmick" , I used it in rhetorical question to ask whether we are mimicking them or they are mimicking us? You are not smart enough to comprehend and think about such a rhetorical question before blasting off into your sillyland.

Everyone is welcome with an opinion, but gosh, this repeating pattern of arguing for the sake of arguing, and from a position of ignorance is what I can never really understand.

There is absolutely nothing controversial about the things I have posted on this thread.
All information is in the PUBLIC DOMAIN, for pete's sake.

LordReed:


Yes you are freaking bigot because my post mentioned nothing of religion but you come back at me with:

"I really get frustrated when someone tries to use his own ill-informed religiously jaundiced opinion to attack a scientifically established fact.
How do you do that?"

Is this not a clear case of bigotry?

Dundi, do you know the meaning of rhetorical? Lemme spell it out for you:

A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in
the form of a question that is asked in order
to make a point.

So what stufid point were you making wiseass?

Remove that stufid anti-religious bigotry blinker in your damned head when next you are replying to a simple post. And grow up, shouting "you hate science" anytime you are challenged is so kindergarten.

plaetton:



No one ever said or implied that
What is the definition of a pathogen?


A pathogen is a biological agent that causes disease or illness to its host.


If you had any comprehension skills , you would have understood from my second post that the body is an entire ecosystem of microbial flora.
In kindergarten language, an ecosystem means that it includes many many diverse varieties and cultures of microbes, including the good, the bad and the ugly. I also said that they exhibit social behavior that include peace and harmony, as well as conflicts and wars.
If you had understood that part, you would not be asking daft questions.


Oh my Gosh.

I am sooo tired of this senseless argument .
I have really exhausted my patience with you on this , and I am realizing that you either very daft or very dishonest, or both.

First, without reading or thinking, you fire insults at me, then later you agree to everything that I have written, things that are not simply my opinions , but are scientifically observed facts.
But rather than humble yourself, your daft ego continues to carry you on a merry-go-round.
At the end of the day , you are actually arguing with yourself, against yourself.

No wonder you fail your exams.

Joshthefirst:

"the only cases where microbes will influence a persons biochemistry for their own benefit is in pathological conditions'.