Aunty Pepeye, this is more religious gymnastics that have very little grounding in the bible you love to quote.

Pepeye:

They aren’t staged. I equally do the miracles myself. yeah! I lay hands on the sick and they recover. You can’t stay long enough with Pastor and don’t get a rub off of that anointing, I ‘m not only the recipient of the miracles’ I do it !!

1. The gift of healing is not an exclusive property of your pastor.
2. It is not your pastor's anointing that is responsible for healing.
3. As a born again child of God the bible says we will do even more miracles than Christ did.

Pepeye:

Mark 16:17-18 TLB “And those who believe, will be able to place their hands on the sick and heal them”

Note the inconsistency between the bible verse you quote and ur own ealier statements. The bible says "those who believe" not those who are members of CEC or those who let their pastor's "anointing" rub off them.

Pepeye:

Thank God for the auction of the Spirit, I do not know how it feels to be sick anymore, those are one of the numerous rights we have in Christ Isaiah 33-24 And the inhabitant will not say “I am sick”

My dear sister, this is another trick your blind pastors use to lead you into the ditch. Paul was afflicted and prayed hard for healing but was not . . . even mighty Timothy needed medicine recommended for his stomach.

The bible does not say ANYWHERE that christians will not know how it feels to be sick anymore.

You quoted Is 33:24 - however it refers to "inhabitants of Zion" . . . (verse 20) . . . an indication that it refered not to mortals but to the redeemed in heaven.

enough of distorting scripture to push a fraudulent message.

Pepeye:

If you’re a product of Pastor Chris, you ll know you aren’t ordinary, there is something about our hands, your hands aren’t just for holding and carrying things …God made them to transmit His Power.

This above is another symptom of those who worship man more than the creator. What does it mean to be a "product of Pastor Chris"?
Did you EVER read your bible and see the disciples boasting to be "products of brother Paul"?

There is nothing about your hands that are special beyond that same power given to every child of God. John 1:12

Pepeye:

Pastor teaches us to do it yourself, we do not wait for him nor any man so Its not only Pastor Chris who does the miracle, a thousand times no, we all are, every true CEC member lives in the miraculous , we operate in the supernatural

Pastor "teaches" us to . . . what really does Christ teach you? Which is more important? You mentioned Pastor Christ TWICE in the above post . . . not once did you mention the source of the power . . . Christ Himself.

Pepeye:

We have divine abilities working in us…I’m not talking about Teknons in the house but the Huios of God, we lay hands on the sick and they recover

It is not recorded that Stephen or Matthew or Luke healed anyone . . . did they not have divine abilities working in them?
Pharaoh's servants, Simeon the sorcerer all performed "miracles" too . . . did they have divine abilities working in them?

when did "divine abilities" become the sign of the saved?

Pepeye:

That’s the kind of life He’s called us to live, Remember the words of Jesus “ ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you (acts 1- that power is the dynamic ability to cause changes

Christ called you to live a life of righteousness FIRST . . . every other thing is secondary.

Again i suggest you read your bible first. you seem to be spewing things u heard from your pulpit that turn out to be heart breaking falsehood when placed under the microscope of the bible.

Pepeye, have you not observed how you've made valuable points and truth available likewise donnie, hubreality and others here in the forum even at similar threads raised by these same folks, you know what? these accusers of the brethren will continue to argue the truth irrespective of their quoting the scriptures but deny the Power therein due to their mindset. An acid test to take note always "Out of the aboundance the heart, the mouth speaks" They are just showing everybody what stuff they're made of.

Beware of dogs and vipers in the church. They are not outside but right inside the church. They walk by sight instead of walking by Faith. They walk by strife and hate instead of Love which is the acceptable law of God.

You guys should please let thismen of God be and stop this unholy, wicked and unGodly critism. I heard pastor TB was fake, Even while on my way to Calabar a guy was claiming that pastor Olukoya is fake. E ven Adeboye has had this great persecution time. I have watched pastor Chris teaching and he teaches the true word of God even the demonic Tb also teaches the undiluted word of God. THEY SAY WHY DOES HE SAY EMMANUEL instead of Jesus. lol. funny stuffs.

Ever asked yourself why Jesus had to spit on the sand and make mud out of it nd rub on a guys eye 4 him to see if he could just say the word and he would be healed. If any man of God do that or something similar, that would be a cause 4 doubt.

Get some brains guys, Or perhaps make do with the little you have even if its empty container.

By the way i ain't CE member if anyone was about guessing so. I attend reddemed.

Sorry if anyone is offended but it's a free world.

Thanks

Donpuzo aka dogman

Seconded! Donpuzo

THANKS BE TO GOD WHO HAS MADE ME PARTAKERS OF THIS THINGS, TEN YEARS UNDER THE MINISTRY OF GODS WORD.AM JUST RIDING ON WITH THE LORD TILL HE COMES. LIKE PASTOR CHRIS SAYS ITS NOT HEALING THAT GOD WANTS TO GIVE YOU,ITS THE WORD. THANK GOD FOR DIVINE HEALTH .NON OF THIS DISEASES.

BRETHREN CONTINUE LOOKING ON TO JESUS,RUNNING WITH THE VISION ,TAKING DIVINE PRESENCE TO THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD.THERE ARE STILL MORE LAND TO CONQUER.

CHEER UP THE WORD WORKS!!! IT WORKS WONDERS. STAY ON THE WORD BRETHREN.

Men and Brethren,

I am very disturbed.  I am also very sad.  I followed this thread from post #1.  I have been very reluctant to say something in here for a number of reasons:

- I made a choice to be of blessing to people I come across and not a stumbling block
- I am careful not to dissuade others, since many people read one’s contributions
- Not wanting the name of Christ to be ridiculed, which the thread could potentially degenerate into
- I abhor arguments, especially the types that lead nowhere
- Hoping the issues raised will be addressed objectively
- Don’t want to be labelled ‘an accuser of the brethren’


However, having read up till now and seeing the way my brethren tend to divert issues and rather discuss/defend persons, I became very disturbed indeed.  Let me state here before I am wrongly accused, that:

- I am a believer (born-again, spirit-filled, tongue-talking. . .) and I believe in miracles, the healing ministry and manifestations of the Spirit
- I have ministered healings on people and have received healings/miracles myself by others’ ministrations
- I have been blessed by some of Pator Chris' teachings (and he can teach!)
- I see CE members as my brethren too, having the same heavenly Father (I am not a member of CE).

Knowing fully well that every idle word I speak will be accounted for, I speak therefore with every sense of responsibility.

SirJohn brought an issue up, backed up with strong evidences which can stand to any scrutiny in any court of law.  He supplied eye witness accounts (both his and his sick friend), names of those involved (including pastors, staff, workers of CE Healing school), pictures of people he saw during the healing sessions he attended as captured in the CE Magazine, other evidences including pictures from South Africa (also from the magazine) evidently showing a lady pictured using two different wheelchairs on the same day and captioned as ‘the wheelchair that has carried her all her life’.

Reading objectively as a Christian, this tales are too vivid to be fabricated and very disturbing to say the least, especially with the pictures (from CE source) corroborating his accounts.  Please my brethren from CE, take some minutes to read his accounts and check the pictures and links objectively and sincerely.  These things should make every Christian sad if true.  The poster is not saying miracles are not real, but he gave what could be exhibits of deliberate deception, mis-information, stage-management and hypocrisy!

A colleague of mine narrated how he saw a neighbour of his (who could talk and hear) on TV in one of those ‘Atmosphere for Miracles’ meetings posing as a deaf and dumb being ministered unto.  When he confronted him after he came back, he was told he was paid for it!  On the other hand, a woman testified in my church (not CE) how she got her healing in CE Healing School.  Even Jesus could not perform miracles in certain places like Nazareth. 

If someone was healed during a healing session why not say so?  If the healing took place before hands were laid, why present it as make-belief before a live audience?  Does it make the healing any more authentic?  If someone could walk before (according to SirJohn’s account) why put him/her on a wheelchair (s)he didn’t come with, only to be recorded as being crippled on that same wheelchair all their lives?  And if it happens the person didn’t get his/her healing, why make the public believe so?  It is this alleged deception that is the crux of this thread and not belief in miracles!  Ananaias and Saphirra paid dearly for deception with their own lives.  It is that serious to the Holy Spirit.

Without being presumptuous, I must say the responses from CE members have been disappointing.  The poster made it clear he is a Christian, believed in miracles, is a member of CE and also a financial partner and has been under Pastor Chris’ ministry.  Why then go ahead to attack his person instead of addressing the issues he raised? He doesn’t appear to have any reason to lie and discredit a ministry he is a member of if he hasn’t seen and witnessed certain things that are disturbing to him.  Also, he made it clear he has tried severally to raise it up with the hierarchy of CE but rebuffed, hence his decision to go public.

I understand the fact that we all have duties to defend our pastors and ministries (after all Peter tried to defend Jesus when he was being arrested), but does this mean they should not stand up to scrutiny?  Even when what appears to be concrete evidences of deception (or half-truth at best) are being brought up?

Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our Faith was examined and found blameless:

Luke 23:13-14 Pilate summoned the chief priests and the rulers and the people, and said to them, "You brought this man to me as one who incites the people to rebellion, and behold, having examined Him before you, I have found no guilt in this man regarding the charges which you make against Him.

John 14:30 "I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;

Therefore it behooves us as followers of the Master to be blameless too when scrutinized:

Phil 2:14-15 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,

Titus 1:7 Because an overseer is God's servant manager, he must be blameless. He must not be arrogant or irritable. He must not drink too much, be a violent person, or make money in shameful ways.

Brethren, instead of faith-speak let’s examine the things being brought up and refute the evidences if untrue.  This way we prove ourselves.  And if they are things we have no answer against, it is golden to say so or maintain silence.  I believe as followers of Christ, we shouldn’t be afraid of being tested/examined if we know those things we are being accused of are not true.

Sigh!  Lord, purge Your church.

@Analytical
Well spoken!

Hubreality and Pepeye hope both read and taken note of what Analyitcal just said

Analytical:

Men and Brethren,

I am very disturbed.  I am also very sad.  I followed this thread from post #1.  I have been very reluctant to say something in here for a number of reasons:

- I made a choice to be of blessing to people I come across and not a stumbling block
- I am careful not to dissuade others, since many people read one’s contributions
- Not wanting the name of Christ to be ridiculed, which the thread could potentially degenerate into
- I abhor arguments, especially the types that lead nowhere
- Hoping the issues raised will be addressed objectively
- Don’t want to be labelled ‘an accuser of the brethren’


However, having read up till now and seeing the way my brethren tend to divert issues and rather discuss/defend persons, I became very disturbed indeed.  Let me state here before I am wrongly accused, that:

- I am a believer (born-again, spirit-filled, tongue-talking. . .) and I believe in miracles, the healing ministry and manifestations of the Spirit
- I have ministered healings on people and have received healings/miracles myself by others’ ministrations
- I have been blessed by some of Pator Chris' teachings (and he can teach!)
- I see CE members as my brethren too, having the same heavenly Father (I am not a member of CE).

Knowing fully well that every idle word I speak will be accounted for, I speak therefore with every sense of responsibility.

SirJohn brought an issue up, backed up with strong evidences which can stand to any scrutiny in any court of law.  He supplied eye witness accounts (both his and his sick friend), names of those involved (including pastors, staff, workers of CE Healing school), pictures of people he saw during the healing sessions he attended as captured in the CE Magazine, other evidences including pictures from South Africa (also from the magazine) evidently showing a lady pictured using two different wheelchairs on the same day and captioned as ‘the wheelchair that has carried her all her life’.

Reading objectively as a Christian, this tales are too vivid to be fabricated and very disturbing to say the least, especially with the pictures (from CE source) corroborating his accounts.  Please my brethren from CE, take some minutes to read his accounts and check the pictures and links objectively and sincerely.  These things should make every Christian sad if true.  The poster is not saying miracles are not real, but he gave what could be exhibits of deliberate deception, mis-information, stage-management and hypocrisy!

A colleague of mine narrated how he saw a neighbour of his (who could talk and hear) on TV in one of those ‘Atmosphere for Miracles’ meetings posing as a deaf and dumb being ministered unto.  When he confronted him after he came back, he was told he was paid for it!  On the other hand, a woman testified in my church (not CE) how she got her healing in CE Healing School.  Even Jesus could not perform miracles in certain places like Nazareth.  

If someone was healed during a healing session why not say so?  If the healing took place before hands were laid, why present it as make-belief before a live audience?  Does it make the healing any more authentic?  If someone could walk before (according to SirJohn’s account) why put him/her on a wheelchair (s)he didn’t come with, only to be recorded as being crippled on that same wheelchair all their lives?  And if it happens the person didn’t get his/her healing, why make the public believe so?  It is this alleged deception that is the crux of this thread and not belief in miracles!  Ananaias and Saphirra paid dearly for deception with their own lives.  It is that serious to the Holy Spirit.

Without being presumptuous, I must say the responses from CE members have been disappointing.  The poster made it clear he is a Christian, believed in miracles, is a member of CE and also a financial partner and has been under Pastor Chris’ ministry.  Why then go ahead to attack his person instead of addressing the issues he raised? He doesn’t appear to have any reason to lie and discredit a ministry he is a member of if he hasn’t seen and witnessed certain things that are disturbing to him.  Also, he made it clear he has tried severally to raise it up with the hierarchy of CE but rebuffed, hence his decision to go public.

I understand the fact that we all have duties to defend our pastors and ministries (after all Peter tried to defend Jesus when he was being arrested), but does this mean they should not stand up to scrutiny?  Even when what appears to be concrete evidences of deception (or half-truth at best) are being brought up?

Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our Faith was examined and found blameless:

Luke 23:13-14 Pilate summoned the chief priests and the rulers and the people, and said to them, "You brought this man to me as one who incites the people to rebellion, and behold, having examined Him before you, I have found no guilt in this man regarding the charges which you make against Him.

John 14:30 "I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;

Therefore it behooves us as followers of the Master to be blameless too when scrutinized:

Phil 2:14-15 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,

Titus 1:7 Because an overseer is God's servant manager, he must be blameless. He must not be arrogant or irritable. He must not drink too much, be a violent person, or make money in shameful ways.

Brethren, instead of faith-speak let’s examine the things being brought up and refute the evidences if untrue.  This way we prove ourselves.  And if they are things we have no answer against, it is golden to say so or maintain silence.  I believe as followers of Christ, we shouldn’t be afraid of being tested/examined if we know those things we are being accused of are not true.

Sigh!  Lord, purge Your church.

Case closed CE members oya over to you guys.

SirJohn.
I am not a member of his church nor have any affeliation with the organisation.
I dont believe u. I dont see any reason why anyone should take your word for it.
It is easy for anyone to stand up and say what he likes on ablog behind a mask.
I could just as easily make outragious statements about you.
Who really knows the agenda or the agro that you have.
You say your faith was shaken - faith in who man or God!
'If anyman sees his brother commit a sin that is not unto death, he should prayer to the Father for life and restore that brother' Remember that quote from the bible?
Oga, get a life.
If you were busy making a success of yours you would not be spending time undermining others.

OKbobo:

SirJohn.
I am not a member of his church nor have any affeliation with the organisation.
I don't believe u. I don't see any reason why anyone should take your word for it.
It is easy for anyone to stand up and say what he likes on ablog behind a mask.
I could just as easily make outragious statements about you.
Who really knows the agenda or the agro that you have.
You say your faith was shaken - faith in who man or God!
'If anyman sees his brother commit a sin that is not unto death, he should prayer to the Father for life and restore that brother' Remember that quote from the bible?
Oga, get a life.
If you were busy making a success of yours you would not be spending time undermining others.

bro,
u don't have to believe or not, dats your choice. SirJohn gave a good account of himself, with facts that will stand up to any scrutiny. What behoves any civilised human being is to examine the facts and evidences objectively, and choose to be informed or not.
Name calling will get you nowhere. And who told you SirJohn is not making a success of his life?

OKbobo:

SirJohn.
I am not a member of his church nor have any affeliation with the organisation.
I don't believe u. I don't see any reason why anyone should take your word for it.
It is easy for anyone to stand up and say what he likes on ablog behind a mask.
I could just as easily make outragious statements about you.
Who really knows the agenda or the agro that you have.
You say your faith was shaken - faith in who man or God!
'If anyman sees his brother commit a sin that is not unto death, he should prayer to the Father for life and restore that brother' Remember that quote from the bible?
Oga, get a life.
If you were busy making a success of yours you would not be spending time undermining others.

Seems like you dont get it.

This is not about undermining anybody. Sir John has provided evidence that is reasonable to the honest and objective mind. Or maybe it's Pastor Chris' involvement in all this that is causing many of you to shy away from the evidence.

That's why I suggested to Pepeye, lets put Pastor C. out of the picture for a minute. Is it actually wrong to put MOG under the microscope when there is evidence? What if James Randi and others who exposesd Popoff kept quiet, do you think many would have been delivered from that deceptive scam of a ministry?

Certainly not. And I think it is probably pride that would prevent some ministries from coming out clean and actually responding to allegations, be they false or not, instead of accusing everybody of not walking in love, faith and so on.

@SirJohn
Remember Rev Jim Jones of Guyana? He caused the death of nearly all his followers by convincing them to drink poison and die so as to catch the "last bus to heaven". That was in 1979.
Shows what systematic and continuous brainwashing will do.
The cult of personality worship is very strong in christendom today especially among the new age churches and their televangelists. People will believe what they have been persuaded to believe, however idiotic it seems. Its called mental programming I think.
So, Im not suprised about Pastor Chris and the predictable reactions from CE members.

His followers(my sister inclusive) rever him
They adore him
They worship him,

So, how d'you think they will allow a mere mortal like you diss their idol? no way man!

coolruler:

@SirJohn
Remember Rev Jim Jones of Guyana? He caused the death of nearly all his followers by convincing them to drink poison and die so as to catch the "last bus to heaven". That was in 1979.
Shows what systematic and continuous brainwashing will do.
The cult of personality worship is very strong in christendom today especially among the new age churches and their televangelists. People will believe what they have been persuaded to believe, however idiotic it seems. Its called mental programming I think.
So, I'm not suprised about Pastor Chris and the predictable reactions from CE members.

His followers(my sister inclusive) rever him
They adore him
They worship him,

So, how d'you think they will allow a mere mortal like you diss their idol? no way man!

Highlighted above is the crux of the problem no matter what you say these idol worshippers would never listen to you or admit the truth. Today Rev King's church is waxing stronger even though he murdered one of his church members in broad day light and slept with several women in the church his worshipers are still worshipping him even when the demon as been found guilty and sentenced to death. The truth is all those who Idolize mortal men like themselves are in serious bondage and in need of special deliverance from this demonic oppression

hubreality on November 19 2008:

I do not agree with you(Poster) that those miracles were stage managed. Look, I repeat, this thread is inspired by the devil, you have made several false claims. Pastor Chris has prsonally responded to press men in 2005 when the entire PFN were very hot on him about his association with Prophet T.B Joshua and all their claims which couldn't stand the test of time due to their false foundations respectively. Anyway, it may interest you to check out this press interview with Pastor Chris in that regard:
http://www.dossiers/pastor-chris-oyakhilome20050117-interview.htm

In this particular interview Pastor Chis was asked this question: How exactly did you meet T.B. Joshua?
This was his exact response: "It was in 2001 that I met him or spoke with him for the first time, contrary to the assertions of the PFN leaders. He called me on the phone. He had been watching our programme on television with some of his visitors, and there was this episode of a little girl who was born blind, who received her sight at our crusade. He said he was moved by the miracle and decided to call me. That was our first contact. After that, we spoke several other times on telephone."

Now this is my question: If he claimed he never spoke to or met T B Joshua before the telephone conversation, how did T B Joshua get his personal phone number with which he contacted him? There's a strong suggestion here that they may have been friends all along.

As far as am concerned, the poster's facts and proofs to butress his points looks too clear and real.

The Bible say Don't Judge. So am not judging Pastor Chris nor CE but his brand of christianity, am yet to see it in my bible.

To me miracle is not yardstick for true men of God, but practice of the word of God - living rightous life, which to me the guy is zero.

Hey guys, mixing up issues and comparisons with any so called men of God are not the issues on ground. Pastor was then falsely accused of using some ocultic powers for the vivid healings and miracles that took place during the CEC meetings, crusades and all other testimonies recorded through electronic media, now it is stage managed.

What of the miracles that took place from people across the globe who were just watching teachings inspired and powered by the Holy Ghost through the internet and TV programmes. I have personally recorded several testimonies from many countries on my hub on the title "Night of Bliss with Pastor Chris" some in the house or beyond may equally speculate of my being paid by CEC or Pastor Chris. For the sake of they Spiritually God appointed judges in the forums i suppose, we are still waiting for your sincere verdict. Fault finders, how far is your individual lives starting from your home before getting to other people.

Pastor Chris Oyakhilome is not Jesus Christ and has never claimed to be one. May be you accuser of the brethren should blame God for using him or pray that God should expose or remove him, if he is fake than laying false claims against his ministry.

BRB

Hubreality, i'm not sure you read analytical's post.

what's the beef with pastor cris? he is making lots of money and living in heaven while most of his followers are suffering and waiting to go to heaven. . . . . most people worship their pastors, creflor dollar, pat robinson, david oyedepo, joseph adeboye, juanita bynum , etc all have worshippers. . . . . . people are still worshipping in rev kings church. . . . . . . . i meet one of such people 2 months ago in niaja, the guy was still claiming that the pastor was innocent. . . .

I challenge hubreality to read Analytical's post and stop clutching at straws.

The poster raised an issue of deception in telling testimonies and has provided evidence to back his claims. Furthermore, In his original post, it was suggested that Pastor Chris may not be aware of some of the shoddy activities going on. While I am quite certain belief in God can heal people of their ailments, people have been truly healed at Chris' crusades (due to their faith obviously); I am also of the opinion that dodgy activities have gone on in that camp. It is the duty of the faithful (SirJohn) to point them out and let Pastor Chris deal with his staff that misguide the public or correct his ways if he has erred.

It is not an opportunity for praise singers to hyperventilate and throw unbiblical comments all over the place to prove the infallibility of their MAN of God.

Analytical:

Men and Brethren,

I am very disturbed. I am also very sad. I followed this thread from post #1. I have been very reluctant to say something in here for a number of reasons:

- I made a choice to be of blessing to people I come across and not a stumbling block
- I am careful not to dissuade others, since many people read one’s contributions
- Not wanting the name of Christ to be ridiculed, which the thread could potentially degenerate into
- I abhor arguments, especially the types that lead nowhere
- Hoping the issues raised will be addressed objectively
- Don’t want to be labelled ‘an accuser of the brethren’

Great it is that you have broken your silence to address the issues raised here. To some these issue might seem trivial, meriting no more than a passing mention. However, those with greater insights would be able to see that these strick at the heart of not only the christian message but also modern-day christian ministries.

Analytical:


However, having read up till now and seeing the way my brethren tend to divert issues and rather discuss/defend persons, I became very disturbed indeed. Let me state here before I am wrongly accused, that:

- I am a believer (born-again, spirit-filled, tongue-talking. . .) and I believe in miracles, the healing ministry and manifestations of the Spirit
- I have ministered healings on people and have received healings/miracles myself by others’ ministrations
- I have been blessed by some of Pator Chris' teachings (and he can teach!)
- I see CE members as my brethren too, having the same heavenly Father (I am not a member of CE).

Knowing fully well that every idle word I speak will be accounted for, I speak therefore with every sense of responsibility.

SirJohn brought an issue up, backed up with strong evidences which can stand to any scrutiny in any court of law. He supplied eye witness accounts (both his and his sick friend), names of those involved (including pastors, staff, workers of CE Healing school), pictures of people he saw during the healing sessions he attended as captured in the CE Magazine, other evidences including pictures from South Africa (also from the magazine) evidently showing a lady pictured using two different wheelchairs on the same day and captioned as ‘the wheelchair that has carried her all her life’.

Reading objectively as a Christian, this tales are too vivid to be fabricated and very disturbing to say the least, especially with the pictures (from CE source) corroborating his accounts. Please my brethren from CE, take some minutes to read his accounts and check the pictures and links objectively and sincerely. These things should make every Christian sad if true. The poster is not saying miracles are not real, but he gave what could be exhibits of deliberate deception, mis-information, stage-management and hypocrisy!

A colleague of mine narrated how he saw a neighbour of his (who could talk and hear) on TV in one of those ‘Atmosphere for Miracles’ meetings posing as a deaf and dumb being ministered unto. When he confronted him after he came back, he was told he was paid for it! On the other hand, a woman testified in my church (not CE) how she got her healing in CE Healing School. Even Jesus could not perform miracles in certain places like Nazareth.

How do you exploit a simple, unsophisticated and credulous person? Make promises of miracles and un-earn-for wealth. And why do people keep falling for this? Because they have been systematically manipulated (using religion or other means) to abandon their natural skepticism.

One of the most established and powerful religious authorities in the world is the Catholic church. The Catholics have learned the hard lesson of playing the miracle game, especially so in this modern era where such claims can be very easily checked out using science and medicine. Thus they have raised the bar as what constitute a "faith miracle". For simple-minded people, cure from a common cold is probably a miracle.

A true miracle would be something like the following:

1) Make an amputated limb regrow

2) Raise someone who has been death 10 years back to life

3) Cause a river like the Nile to reverse its direction of flow

Could Jesus have managed any of these? If Jesus could not perform miracle in Nazareth, doesn't that mean that he is not omnipotent after all?

Analytical:


If someone was healed during a healing session why not say so? If the healing took place before hands were laid, why present it as make-belief before a live audience? Does it make the healing any more authentic? If someone could walk before (according to SirJohn’s account) why put him/her on a wheelchair (s)he didn’t come with, only to be recorded as being crippled on that same wheelchair all their lives? And if it happens the person didn’t get his/her healing, why make the public believe so? It is this alleged deception that is the crux of this thread and not belief in miracles! Ananaias and Saphirra paid dearly for deception with their own lives. It is that serious to the Holy Spirit.

Hard to know what to make of this except to say deception is a tool that God himself uses in order so he could exhibit his wrath on those he wishes to destroy. He (God) hardens their hearts, causes them to lie, etc, etc.

So it could well be that God is using Pastor Chris for a grander purpose, in spite of the deception, for he works in mysterious ways.

I have dealt with the subject of Ananaias and Saphirra elsewhere and it worth taking a read.

Analytical:

Without being presumptuous, I must say the responses from CE members have been disappointing. The poster made it clear he is a Christian, believed in miracles, is a member of CE and also a financial partner and has been under Pastor Chris’ ministry. Why then go ahead to attack his person instead of addressing the issues he raised? He doesn’t appear to have any reason to lie and discredit a ministry he is a member of if he hasn’t seen and witnessed certain things that are disturbing to him. Also, he made it clear he has tried severally to raise it up with the hierarchy of CE but rebuffed, hence his decision to go public.

I understand the fact that we all have duties to defend our pastors and ministries (after all Peter tried to defend Jesus when he was being arrested), but does this mean they should not stand up to scrutiny? Even when what appears to be concrete evidences of deception (or half-truth at best) are being brought up?

Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our Faith was examined and found blameless:

Luke 23:13-14 Pilate summoned the chief priests and the rulers and the people, and said to them, "You brought this man to me as one who incites the people to rebellion, and behold, having examined Him before you, I have found no guilt in this man regarding the charges which you make against Him.

John 14:30 "I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;

Therefore it behooves us as followers of the Master to be blameless too when scrutinized:

Phil 2:14-15 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,

Titus 1:7 Because an overseer is God's servant manager, he must be blameless. He must not be arrogant or irritable. He must not drink too much, be a violent person, or make money in shameful ways.

Brethren, instead of faith-speak let’s examine the things being brought up and refute the evidences if untrue. This way we prove ourselves. And if they are things we have no answer against, it is golden to say so or maintain silence. I believe as followers of Christ, we shouldn’t be afraid of being tested/examined if we know those things we are being accused of are not true.

Sigh! Lord, purge Your church.

One thing uniquely missing from your post was what the rank-and-file Christians could do to render themselves impervious to such clerical manipulations and deceptions. Most modern day Christians are soft-headed zombified simpletons. How do you address this problem? The churches have become breeding grounds for such people, ill-adapted to the modern world.

An anecdote is in order here - Many years ago I had a Nigeria friend at a UK University. We were enrolled on the same course in the same department doing research work. This friend was a very committed born again Christian and had tried his damnest to convert me. Upon completion of his PhD, he started looking for employment and given the economic situation in the early 90s, was luck to secure some interviews. Having failed to secure recall for a second interview from all his intial interviews, I enquired about his interview style and technique.

I was horrified at what I learnt. Basically, upon being asked questions such as - "How would you deal with a dispute at work?" or "How would you ensure a challenging projects gets delivered on budget and on schedule?". This friend alway managed to spin God into his responses - with such answers as "I would pray to God to resolve the problems for me".

This friend, in spite having obtained a PhD, had been zombified by religion. Despite three years of relentlessly searching for a job, he remain unemployed and unemployable. His marriage failed, he started sleeping rough in public toilets, in classrooms, etc.

I see many Christians amonsgt my friends and family who may appear "normal" ordinarily, but cognitively are on the borderline of cognitive stability. Many of them know their plight quite well, but daren't address because the call it "faith-in-god". These are the prime candidates for manipulation by the likes of Pastor Chris.

Individual differences are there, and the Church is not a place for perfect people but it's a place where people are perfected by the word of God continually. Saying that miracles that took place are fake and stage managed, that cameramen are playing some games with Pastor Chris, have you ever worked with the crew? that wheel chairs were borrowed and rented, who and where I asked? that so many people who were healed shortly died of the same ailment and so on, are all beautiful lies. The one that made me laughed so long at it all was, i suppose the poster read the funeral rite of each person that died respectively as a true witness to their burial. :-D. I'm always sensitive and careful when i meet such lies and people involved. Why? They could be dangerous, get to their private and family life, i assure you of negative surprises dirtier than their false claims, Hahaha!!!

wow! So this thread is still going on. . .

hubreality:

Individual differences are there, and the Church is not a place for perfect people but it's a place where people are perfected by the word of God continually. Saying that miracles that took place are fake and stage managed, that cameramen are playing some games with Pastor Chris, have you ever worked with the crew? that wheel chairs were borrowed and rented, who and where I asked? that so many people who were healed shortly died of the same ailment and so on, are all beautiful lies. The one that made me laughed so long at it all was, i suppose the poster read the funeral rite of each person that died respectively as a true witness to their burial. :-D. I'm always sensitive and careful when i meet such lies and people involved. Why? They could be dangerous, get to their private and family life, i assure you of negative surprises dirtier than their false claims,  Hahaha!!!

this is the best you could come up with? Since when did reading a person's funeral rites become the only evidence of of having witnessed a his/her death? If that's the case then my greatgrandmother who would have been 160 must still be alive.

Really, Hubreality your 'spirited' defence is declining o!. . . or do I sense just a teeny, weeny ounce of capitulation here?

No gains on falsehood and bearing false witness against your fellow human being. It's not funny. It's an evil act. Refrain from it! If you a believer in Christ Jesus, you've an ultimate authority through your prayers to cause positive changes on issues that are not pleasant to you. It is also the will of God for you to interceed for your brethren. All things are possible to him that believes.  Never accept the position of the devil as the accuser of the brethren.

huxley:

Great it is that you have broken your silence to address the issues raised here. To some these issue might seem trivial, meriting no more than a passing mention. However, those with greater insights would be able to see that these strick at the heart of not only the christian message but also modern-day christian ministries.

No, not the christian message, sir.  That has been tested and found to be true, standing the test of time.  The Christian message is good news, that Christ came to the world, paid the price of sin, so that whoever believes and receives Him is saved.  The problem is what people have made of the message and how they have proclaimed it.

A true miracle would be something like the following:

1)   Make an amputated limb regrow

2)   Raise someone who has been death 10 years back to life

3)   Cause a river like the Nile to reverse its direction of flow

Could Jesus have managed any of these?    If Jesus could not perform miracle in Nazareth, doesn't that mean that he is not omnipotent after all?

You reveal how little you know about Jesus here, Huxley.  Let me ask you a question Jesus asked some skeptics when a case of paralysis was brought before him.  He forgave the sins of a man who was incapacitated and they asked him who gave him authority to forgive sin:

Matthew 9:5 "Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, and walk '?

Huxely, which one is more difficult, to forgive sin or to perform a miracle?  Jesus went not only to forgive the man of his sins to the consternation of those skeptics, but went ahead to perform a miracle of healing by commanding him to get up, walk and carry his bed, which he did instantly.  Common sense should tell us that miracles are cheap to Someone who has the power to forgive sins (a sole prerogative of the Almighty!)

Jesus gave sights to those born without eyes, made born cripples to walk, raised dead bodies to life even after they were putrefied and stinking (by the way, is a dead person of 10 years 'deader' than 4 days old?), walked on river, spoke to a storm (compare Tsunami!) to be quiet and it obeyed (could it have been difficult for him to command the river to reverse its course when he could suspend associated laws of displacement, hydrology, gravity etc?)

Jesus could not perform much miracles in Nazareth because of their unbelief, not because of His inability.  This is where faith comes in.  It is always according to your faith.

One thing uniquely missing from your post was what the rank-and-file Christians could do to render themselves impervious to such clerical manipulations and deceptions.  Most modern day Christians are soft-headed zombified simpletons.  How do you address this problem?  The churches have become breeding grounds for such people, ill-adapted to the modern world.

Fortunately, your mind is not suspended when you decide to be a Christian.  Maybe most just do not want to engage their minds through the filter of the word of God or are just too lazy to do so.  The early church (at Berea, Acts 17 vs 11) always go back to confirm through the study of the Scriptures if those things they were taught were so.

To All Posters of this thread,

I have read from the 1st to the last post and it made an interesting read. My own little contribution is for all the categories of Posters:

1. For those that said miracles dont happen - My Mom got healed of Chronic Arthritis (which is medically incurable, can only be managed) in 2006 right in her room. She hasnt felt any single pain since then except for the usual aches that comes with been 60yrs old. I have seen a mad man (i hv known him as mad for many years) ben healed

2.  For the Poster - It seems you went to the healing school with the sole aim of discrediting the whole program probably the reason why ur friend didn't get his healing. One thing I want you to know is that there were still blind, lame, dumb& deaf and all sort of sick pple during the time My Lord and Jesus Christ walked the earth but it doen't make Him any less the Messiah to me. Christianity is a personal thing/affair - U reap what u personally sow. If the man is winning souls and converting many to Christ then pls leave himi be. Listen to his preachings and dont watch his miracle programs. Chikena!!

3.  For those defending Pastor Chris - well the bible say don't judge so I wouldn't want to judge the man but maybi if I can have a chance of been 1 on 1 with him I would probably ask him to do something about the mode/way of dressing of some of his members (specially female) and also ask whatz d deal with most of his Pastors having Jerry Curls? But Like I said in as much as he is winning souls to Christ (whatever d means) am cool with dat.

4.  To the Christian Body as a whole - watch and pray for the time is near in which all things hidden would be revealed.


JESUS IS LORD.

MAY BE I SHOULD ASK: WHAT IS SIR JOHN TRYING TO DO BY THIS THREAD? WHAT IS THIS ALL ABOUT? WHAT IS IT MEANT TO ACHIEVE?

I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE SOME ANSWERS:

(1)  SIR JOHN WANTS TO EXPOSE THE ''LIES'' OF PASTOR CHRIS.
(2)  PST CHRIS CLAIMS TO DO MIRACLE BUT HE DOESNT.
(3) MOST OF PST CHRIS' MIRACLES ARE STAGE MANAGED. ETC.

IN DOING THIS SIR JOHN WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT:

(1) HE IS AN EYE WITNESS TO MANY OF THE STAGE MANAGED MIRACLES.
(2) HE IS TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT PST CHRIS AND NOT JUST HATING HIM.
(3) HE IS A TRUE CHRISTIAN UNLIKE PST CHRIS AND MANY(OR ALL) OF HIS FOLLOWERS.

MY CONCLUSIONS:

MANY PPLE DO NOT BELEIVE PST CHRIS PERFORMS MIRACLE. ALSO, MANY people DO NOT AGREE WITH SIR JOHN'S THREAD.
people HAVE A RIGHT TO EITHER BELIEVE SIR JOHN'S POSTINGS OR NOT TO BELEIVE IT. THE CHOICE IS ABSOLUTELY THAT OF EACH PERSON. ALSO IT IS people'S CHOICE ETHIER TO BELIEVE PST CHRIS OR NOT TO BELIEVE HIM. NO ONE NEED FORCE YOU TO BELIEVE ANYBODY.

IT IS POSSIBLE THAT PST CHRIS IS FAKE SO AS IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SIR JOHN IS A LIAR. THE CHOICE IS MINE ON WHO TO BELIEVE. IT APPEARS THAT THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN PST CHRIS ARE REGARDED AS GULLIBLE, FANATICAL, SHEEPISH, DOGMATIC ETC. BUT IF YOU AGREE WT SIR JOHN YOU ARE THE SMART ONE WHO IS NOT GULLIBLE. I DISAGREE.

IF ALL THAT SIR JOHN WANTS TO ACHIEVE IS TO CALL people'S ATTENTION TO PST CHRIS ''FRAUD'', THEN HE HAS MADE HIS POINT (OR NO POINT). GOING FURTHER TO ASK CE MEMBERS TO DEFEND their PASTOR OR THEMSELVES IS TOO FAR. THEY OWE NO DUTY TO DO THAT. EVERY MAN (INCLUDING PST CHRIS AND SIR JOHN) WILL GIVE ACCOUNT OF HIS OR HERSELF TO GOD (THAT IS IF YOU BELIEVE IN GOD) AND NOT REALLY TO MAN.

THE WAY SIR JOHN IS TRYING TO PROOF THAT HE IS TELLING THE GOSPEL TRUTH IS SUSPICIOUS. AFTER CALLING MY ATTENTION TO FRAUD ON ME, LEAVE ME TO FIND OUT BY MYSELF. I DO NOT SEE WHY SIR JOHN SHOULD ASSUME THE ROLE OF FORCING HIS OPINION (OR FACT) ON ME OR ANYONE AT ALL.

FINAL NOTE:

SIR JOHN, THANK YOU FOR TELLING US ABOUT THE PST CHRIS' ''FRAUD''. NOW LEAVE people ALONE TO TAKE their DECISION TO EITHER BELIEVE YOUR INFO OR  NOT.  IF THEY CHOSE TO BELIEVE YOUR INFO, FINE. BUT IF THEY CHOSE TO FOLLOW PST CHRIS AFTER HEARING YOUR ''TRUTH'', THEN ''LET THEIR BLOOD BE ON their OWN HEADS.'' OR MUST people BELIEVE YOU BY FORCE. ARE YOU NOT ALSO HUMAN? Can't YOU BE LYING AND BE JUST ANOTHER FRAUD?

IF YOU CONTINUE TO FORCE YOUR ''TRUTH'' ON people, I WILL HAVE GOOD REASONS TO BELIEVE YOU ARE EITHER A PST CHRIS' HATER, OR YOU ARE ONLY OUT TO SMEAR HIM OR RIDICLE HIM.''

THIS WILL BE THE CASE FOR EXAMPLE WHERE people HAVE EXPERIENCES WITH PST CHRIS THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM YOURS.

please LET people TAKE their DECISIONS. LET THE HOLY SPIRIT CONVINCE WHOEVER HE WILL.

THANKS!

Oh dear . Please O! if I offended any body through my earlier comments, I hereby tender my unreserved apology. Abeg no vex o! Peace

I thank God for His word that produces results to them that believe. Minus Love and Faith, your professing and quoting scriptures as a Christian is fruitless. I repeat, never accept the position of the devil as the accuser of the brethren.
The Spirit rules the physical, this includes self, religion and science. Whatever a man soweth, that will he also reap including Pastor Chris, CEC, Nairalanders, and anyone. You're not wiser than God. CEC is daily growing from glory to glory, having all sufficiency of God's grace and the Power of the Holy Ghost. I love Jesus, our Lord and saviour. His ways are not the ways of men. He is so full of Love. Glory! Hallelujah!

Since When did Church Growth become a Criteria for anything?

Heck!, the Church of Satan is growing too!!

hubreality:

I thank God for His word that produces results to them that believe. Minus Love and Faith, your professing and quoting scriptures as a Christian is fruitless. I repeat, never accept the position of the devil as the accuser of the brethren.

I hope you heretics know that rebuke, reproof, and judgement is an equally important part of christianity. Its not just mindless "love".

hubreality:

The Spirit rules the physical, this includes self, religion and science. Whatever a man soweth, that will he also reap including Pastor Chris, CEC, Nairalanders, and anyone. You're not wiser than God. CEC is daily growing from glory to glory, having all sufficiency of God's grace and the Power of the Holy Ghost. I love Jesus, our Lord and saviour. His ways are not the ways of men. He is so full of Love. Glory! Hallelujah!

What is your criteria for this "growth"? church attendance? Especially from people like you who dont understand the word at all?

Let God be true and all men liers. Rebuke and Critics are in two different directions. Imagine if men were Jehovah in handling the affairs of life in this earth. What it will be, Hahaha! Thank God they're not. Pls forgive me if i did offend anyone here in the forums regarding my responses. I enjoy walking and dwelling in love, for we all have made valuable points here in rebuke, critics and suport of opposite directions. It is the ultimate will our father God for us to interceed for one another in love. I'm not religious. It's a reality. God bless you all and a pleasant weekend, Amen.