johnydon22:
Their is no evidence that their is a god. not zeus, allah, yahweh or horus etc...
All we have is mythical ancient writings and impossible fables very peculiar to the culture that this god or gods are exclusive to.

Now some people might see it ok to Believe (conviction that something is true without empirical evidence) any of these ideas (gods) and fables by faith dismissing the others as we have seen in the cases of christians believing in.yahweh and not allah and muslims doing the reverse.
Though both religions just believe by faith their respective god ideas.

Now atheism entails not having a conviction that something implausible is true even though their is no evidence for it.

So believing something implausible as true does not and can never make it true..

We ask theists to provide evidence for their respective God even though we know that they have none.

You may choose to believe the jewish myth, or arabic myth or greek myth..that is good for you but we call it myth as it is and nothing more...

Emusan:


What type of evidence do you need before you believe that the God or gods exist?

Emusan:

First you mistakenly misapply the word "EMPIRICAL" because empirical can also means BASED ON EXPERIENCE.
Lastly, Christians can't believe in Allah of Islam simply because Yahweh is still speaking to those who love and seek Him which makes Islam false.

Emusan:

Well that's for Atheist.

Emusan:

So did Christians ever tell you that they ONLY believe but NO evidence for THEIR BELIEVE?

Emusan:

So you want a theist to enter Lab and begin to perform experiment to bring God out or in what standard do you base your evidence?

Emusan:

If you like call it Myth from now till you die that won't put God out of existence because people have found God beyond just BELIEVE.
I know you may say it's delusion well TRUTH IS ALWAYS TRUE.

johnydon22:


Dear tell us how you encountered him/her/it..

Was this encounter just in your mind?

Or did you actually perceive/encounter it/him/she in your conscious self (with your senses)

And thinking someone's disbelief is due to difficulties is totally wrong..

disbelief starts from question like How, why and seeking knowledge based on facts and not belief

johnydon22:
How about showing me, we both do not need to believe we have joysticks, we both know we do...
If their are evidence for any god it wont be termed belief anymore, it will be knowing (untmost certainty) but their is not hence belief (faith)

And am sure muslims still make this exact claim for allah hence they conclude yahweh is false...
You see that your conviction is based on your sentimental attachment to one particular fable?

And what are the evidences?
A book? prrrrrrrrrrrf ya right!!

see my first reply.. Or better still divide the red see again show me a talking donkey hahahaha...chai..

exactly the same way the greeks claim.their myths are true even though its plain myth.
Its dead funny when you discard the Hercules story as myth but believes the samson story as true even.though the hercules story predates that of samson and the later probably was plagiarized from the former..
Their is no amount of belief that can ever make these true...

LadyX:


Johnydon22,

I was talking to Frank317 because I can relate with what he's saying.

I have seen you copy paste several times that there is no god.
You asked whether I have encountered God, my answer is a solid YES. I know your next question will be prove that God exists...I don't want to engage in e-war with someone that might not be ready or open minded enough to reason with me.

I want you to know (I know you already know, so it's more of a reminder) that there are different levels of being.
Physical: You can see physical things like trees, stars, clouds etc. If told to prove that a tree exist, you would just point at tree.
Emotional: These are feelings that cannot be seen, but they can be felt. You can prove the existence of feelings like pain, or joy easily through tears (for pain), laughter/smile (For joy), other feelings cannot be proven easily.
Mental/Psychological: It's all in the mind. Some mental conditions can be proven; while others cannot. For example, you can prove that someone, or a mad man has a mental problem because they talk crap or walk naked.
Spiritual: This affects the soul as opposed to physical, emotional, or mental state. Spiritual matters are difficult to explain or understand because we are all at different spiritual levels. Some people are high up there spiritually, while others are almost empty spiritually.

a) Let's start with evil. You have heard, even if you don't believe, about witches and/or witch doctors. They do exist. Some are more powerful than others. There are junior witch doctors who seek spiritual powers from seniour witch doctors. What does that tell you? They are not equal spiritually. Can you prove it by just looking at them? No. Does that mean spirituality does not exist? No. Just because you don't believe in something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Think more about this.

b) Let's move to good. Before we move further, let me tell you that most things have opposites: good> evil, light>darkness, man>woman, heaven>earth etc. Because there are evil powers, there are also good powers. Evil powers are represented by Satan, and good powers are represented by God (You don't have to believe this, but that's how it is). Like I said earlier, there are different spiritual levels. At the bottom we have humans followed by angels, then God (If you've heard of the Holy Trinity, it represents God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). One thing you need to understand is that humans cannot control God, i.e, when you ask God a question or when you ask Him to do something for you, He will do it at His own time/will. So if it's God will that He will reveal HImself to you, He will. Note: It is written that no one can see God and live. So don't expect to see Him in human form.


Finally, and the most important: Blasphemy is a sin, whether you believe in God or not.

P.S: I will not reply quotes about this post.

frank317:


OK... I will not make fun but I will argue and ask rebuttal questions when I feel the need. Why? Some statements made by Christians are outright annoying and makes me feel I should dig into their sense of reasoning and find out why they are so shallow.
That's life, we will disagree but not hate each other

braine:
Coz of the presence of evil. With that proven, I decided to be on the side of the most powerful being.

5minsmadness:

You have a very condescending attitude and I don't have the patience for it. I was discussing with you and you kept using words that as far as i was concerned was insulting. You are the one that kept using the words fool and imaginary god and many other words that I cannot remember now. Also.you are never satisfied no matter the answer that is given to you and then you start talking about 'intelligent discussions'. You are very condescending. Discuss with those that can stand it. If you want to talk in a decent manner instead of being provocational then I will definitely discuss with you.

I know when you wrote the key and when you fiancee died. I wasn't a member of Nairaland then but I felt for you and a lot of folk told you sorry. I knew it was from there you started questioning God . I've read cyberlover and reincarnation. It just pains me that someone as brilliant as you in your stories can turn to insulting other people's beliefs just cos you don't believe in it anymore. I even answered you when you talked about wether wearing artificial hair was a sin and even there your answers to.others was arrogant. If you are angry with God sort it out with him. Don't come to a thread where people are praising God to say your bullshit and think you are making fun and you think it is nice. It is shameful. I am only responding cos I thot you were someone I could look up to once.

Av spoken my mind you can curse me out now.

frank317:



Yes, that's what I tell myself and your likes, I am allergic to bullshit.

Scared of crying for help? Help from who? You or your nonexistent God? Both of u are fools.

What anger really? I have asked you to show me what I said that shows I am angry, but you can't, yet u stupidly just keep on repeating I am angry. Can't u just see u are a big fool?

If you make foolish statement and I ask you a question or say its false, does that make me angry at ur nonexistent God?

I am here to make u see how foolish u are or to make others see it(because u seem incapable of seeing u are plain dumb.) So bring it on. I like ur type.

5minsmadness:

This is your first post on this thread. If you don't believe in God in the first place then this thread does not require your input. But since you quoted I guess you do believe in God. Unless of course you were just beimg sarcastic.


Secondly this is an obscene post. Why put it here where people are praising God? Why spoil the mood of the thread from the beginning?
My phone wants to go off. Dont worry, I'll be back.

Hiswordxray:

Continue...

frank317:


Like I said... Quote me any where u think I was bitter. I never call you fool until u called me a frustrated person. Pls stop accusing me and lying. I even warned you about it. Go through our discuss, I never called you names until u insulted me.
I have little patience for lairs. Pls quote where I just insulted you during a discuss. U purposely keep on repeating I am angry... Without proof... Yet you don't see that as insult.

LadyX:


Hi Frank,
I like the first bolded part. One day God will reveal Himself to you.
@ the second bolded part. I can relate with that. Sometimes, we go through very tough times that we doubt the existence of God. We ask ourselves, "If God trully exists, why did He allow it to happen?"

I did not quote you to prove how wrong, or right you are. I just want you to know that it's perfectly normal to feel how you are feeling. I hope one day you will encounter God, and you will believe that He trully exists.

Peace

Amhappy:


This was the tragic incident that changed your life. I hope you get healed some day.

frank317:


Thanks Mr John. He uses abusive words on me because I don't go with his beliefs. And when I say I an allergic to bullshit he wouldn't understand what I mean.

5minsmadness:

Yes I went through our discussions on the last thread, you go thru it as well. I even told you to calm down, I even called you brother! You just kept on ridiculing and saying god can jump into hellfire himself...who says dat? If you respect my beliefs you wont be condescending.

Tell me on which planet calling someone a fool equates to calling someone frustrated. The moment you start being insultive or condescending I stop talking. Its that simple.

Ok now I couldn't stand your talk anymore and said ok, so I can peacefully leave the argument since you want to win so badly and you took offence! Shuo. Guy abeg do not call me a liar and look at your own posts. You don't read you just start firing. Then you now threathened to insult me cos you think. I will have seizure if you start insulting . Have your way o, enjoy yourself.

5minsmadness:

There is no record saying supernatural happenings did not occur when the missionaries evangelised Africa. They came in contact with a lot of danger including fetishes and witchcraft, how did they overcome it? Wasn't supernatural power needed to conquer these? Isn't it possible that ar least one miracle was wrought during evangelisations in those primitive times? Unless of course you don't believe in such things to begin with.

Doesn't make sense to you who cant see tomorrow but makes sense to God who sees all things from the beginning to the end. These were primitive times, there was no internet, and talking to human beings from the sky was out since the last time He tried it the people died(hence no man can look upon the face of God and live). Also there is something of a connection/ comfort between human beings when the person like you talks about an experience he is having. You will be more willing to accept than if a divine entity who doesn't know what it means to go hungry talks to you about hunger, you understand?

Ordinary Paul and Silas came to a gentile nation to preach the gospel and after working miracles the people wanted to worship them as gods. This would have diverted them away from the message of salvation. Using supernatural methods have always thrown off the point of God's message. Even till today people flock to churches not for the salvation of their souls but for flamboyant miracles. The soul is more important to God than the flesh because the soul is immortal. The flesh isn't and will decay here.

5minsmadness:

Meanwhile show mw where i use abusive words on you . Apart from that frustrated which you are holding unto like your life depends on it show me other places where I have abused you frank since 'he uses abusive words'( continous tense). Am waiting.

When you called my belief 'bullshit' I said ok and walked away. You think you are the only one that can insult. If I insult something dear to you would you like it? Would you like me to insult something dear to you so you will know how it feels like?

frank317:

This is my problem with you guys. You admit that there is no record of supernatural occurrence when the missionaries evangelized Africa, yet you want her to accept your assumption that supernatural means was used to spread the gospel.
Isn't it obvious that supernatural occurrence would awe the people and lead them to record such happening? Would they just over look it and record less mind blowing occurrence?
And if she doubt your assumption you accuse her of being unnecessarily stubborn.

[size=14pt]Calm down frank![/size] You are doing the same thing you accused me of earlier, and that is not reading a post well before answering. Look at the post again below:

5minsmadness:
There is no record saying supernatural happenings did not occur when the missionaries evangelised Africa...
Note the negation there in bold, you are a literary genius, you should know I was trying to say that supernatural events most likely would have taken place!

Well like you rightly pointed out, I am human and it does not make sense to me. Perhaps you are God. However you came to conclusion that it makes sense to God, I don't know. If it makes sense to him, does he not know it does not make sense to me? If he cares less about how it does not make sense to me, then I also care less about how it makes sense to him

Honestly, that's your choice. If God wanted to use angels to spread the gospel he would have done so from Jerusalem, not Africa. And like i said, most people on seeing angels tend to bow down and want to worship them thus removing the glory of worship from God. That would be too much of a distraction. Your own fellow human being coming to preach to you is much better than an angel from the skies. Angel or human you have heard the gospel. What you are going to do with it is solely up to you!

Primitive times indeed and your God had to wait for humans to make internet before deciding that talking to us directly was no longer the best option. Why didn't he come up with internet since he knew that trying to talk to people directly would kill them. Primitive times seems to limit your all knowing God too.

What point are you trying to make here? God knew talking to humans directly wasn't the best option since the time of exodus, probably before then! What has the invention of the internet got to do with this discussion??

Lol... Now humans (who dont know anything about divination) are talking to us about God, your God expect this will make more impact? Seriously? You think your God does not understand hunger because he does not get hungry? Now I understand why children in somalia are dying of hunger despite praying to him.

@bolded, oh[b][size=15pt] I strongly disagree sir.[/size] [/b]Humans know a lot about divination. Just because you have never seen air doesn't mean it does not exist. Just because you have never experienced anything supernatural doesn't mean it doesn't exist!
The hunger example is given for the benefit of humans, not God. If a rich man comes to you and says "I know what it means to be poor, I've been there." and a poor man comes to you and says "I know what it means to be poor" who are you more likely to believe? The poor man of course. God would rather a human like you preach the gospel to you than a deity like an angel!

Tell your God its not working. He should trying another means of reaching the people (since he is good at trial and error). Actually I would suggest to your all knowing deity that talking to us directly would yield a better understanding of him.

I strongly believe God is more interested in quality than quantity. He would rather have refined material that has gone through the fire than any tom, dick and harry. The truth is no matter what is done the gospel will not be accepted by everyone.

Now I am confused: actually you are confused; let me get you straight: are you now complaining that using humans will not work again because people would worship them as God? So why is he still using humans? What does your God expect when he choses to remain invisible.
Again am confused: actually u are confused; you claimed he would have used supernatural means to spread the gospel in Africa, why are you suggesting it would throw of point God's message?
When he used supernatural means in the bible, did it throw of point his message?
Your God seem to have created humans, only to be confused on how best to reach them band communicate smoothly with them. What's hard in reaching his people and making them to understand him and worship him the way he likes? Why is such an easy thing difficult for him?
No, instead of getting it right for once in his everlasting life, the best option for him is to spend so much effort in creating hell so the he will punish those who can't reach him.
So much for an all knowing God.

Of course you are confused because you didn't understand the post from the beginning![size=15pt] You are looking for who to attack instead of trying to understand the message![/size]

There are numerous instances in the bible where a miracle worker or prophet was seen as a god or to be worshiped etc. Each time such prophets are people would be quick to point to God as the source of the glory and not them. Even Jesus Christ that worked so many miracles in the three years he spent on earth was ALONE on the cross! No army rose up from the people he healed to save him! Even his apostles ran away from him! Miracles DO NOT WORK in bringing about salvation! God wants loyal subjects not ass-kissers! He doesn't want a repitition of the heavenly rebellion! He is looking for quality not quantity.

At the last bolded on your post...it this the crux of your quarrel with God? Are you rebelling because you think if you disobey God you will go to hell? [size=15pt]That's not the way brother[/size]. God made hell for the devil.and his angels, not for any man. It is a pity man had been tainted with sin and cannot enter heaven with it for no unclean thing shall enter that place.

Don't listen to those religious christians threatening you with hell if you don't accept the message o eternal life. Those are scare tactics and those christians are working in error! Believe rather in the love of God and His willingness to take your soul under his wings at the end of your sojourn on earth, believe that this world around you and whatever happens in it is temporary and will all come to an end. Even Death will come to an end. What we as christians should be hustling for is what comes afterwards! Don't focus on eternal damnation if not you will continue being angry. Focus on eternal life and peace instead!

At the last bolded on your post...it this the crux of your quarrel with God? Are you rebelling because you think if you disobey God you will go to hell? That's not the way brother. God made hell for the devil.and his angels, not for any man. It is a pity man had been tainted with sin and cannot enter heaven with it for no unclean thing shall enter that place.

frank317:
What's this? Its seems you love assumptions. Who cares if he throws even himself into hell. If he created the world and decides hell is the best option, that show your God is incompetent. [size=14pt]I am just trying to prove to you how meaningless what you believe is[/size]. If you can ask me the question above.... U make me wonder if you are capable of getting into discussion with me.

frank317:


Hmmm to me the idea of God is a joke. If you feel offended because I said God (something I see as a joke) can go to hell would it be right if I get offended when you tell me God (something I see as silly) loves me and will send men to hell if i don't love him back? Listen I don't believe it and I can't remember anytime Christians respected my believes. They only call u a fool for not believing in their God. Even their bible encouraged that.


Now if you call me frustrated... I think I was even kind enough to just call you a fool for that. Trust me.
Stop accusing me... I never called you a fool until you called me frustrated. You were the one who started with the insult.



Yea... I actually came here to win a prove you wrong if I can. I think your believe is silly and I am sick of silliness being shoves in my face. Hence when I see the need to opppose it... Trust me, I will.

5minsmadness:
This is the post i quoted and your reply.


Frank317:
This is my problem with you guys. You admit that[b] there is no record of supernatural occurrence [/b]when the missionaries evangelized Africa, yet you want her to accept your assumption that supernatural means was used to spread the gospel.
Isn't it obvious that supernatural accurance would awe the people and lead them to record such happening? Would they just over look it and record less mind blowing occurrence?
And if she doubt your assumption you accuse her of being unnecessarily stubborn.
you didnt even understand my opening statement. I said there was no record that supernatural occurences DID NOT OCCUR, you understoood it to mean I'm ADMITING there is no occurence of supernatural events. I even corrected you later and told you to calm down!





Well like you rigthly pointed out, I am human and it does not make sense to me. Perhaps you are God. However you came to conclusion that it makes sense to God, I don't know. If it makes sense to him, does he not know it does not make sense to me? If he cares less about how it does not make sense to me, then I also care less about how it makes sense to him
Ya... Primitive times indeed[b] and your God had to wait for humans to make internet before deciding that talking to us directly was no longer the best option. Why didn't he come up with internet since he knew that trying to talk to people directly would kill them. Primitive times seems to limit your all knowing God too.[/b]
Lol... Now humans (who dont know anything about divination) are talking to us about God, your God expect this will make more impact? Seriously? You think your God does not understand hunger because he does not get hungry? Now I understand why children in somalia are dying of hunger despite praying to him.
Tell your God its not working. He should trying another means of reaching the people (since he is good at trial and error). Actually I would suggest to your all knowing deity that talking to us directly would yield a better understanding of him.







Now I am confused: actually you are confused; let me get you straight: are you now complaining that using humans will not work again because people would worship them as God? So why is he still using humans? What does your God expect when he choses to remain invisible.
Again am confused: actually[b] u are confused[/b] ; you claimed he would have used supernatural means to spread the gospel in Africa, why are you suggesting it would throw of point God's message?
When he used supernatural means in the bible, did it throw of point his message?
Your God seem to have created humans, only to be confused on how best to reach them band communicate smoothly with them. What's hard in reaching his people and making them to understand him and worship him the way he likes? Why is such an easy thing difficult for him?
No, instead of getting it right for once in his everlasting life, the best option for him is to spend so much effort in creating hell so the he will punish those who can't reach him.
So much for an all knowing God.


at later bolded are your condescending remarks. if you cant discuss 'my God' without ridicule then I cant discuss with you. I'm like that with those that I love dearly. That's just me.



Show me where I have called you fool or stubborn or stupid or simple minded here o.
am coming.

now I am confused,,actually you are confused

frank317:


I don't know if there is a God, but ibam sure hell what you whorship is not the creator. I posted that because I don't believe you have any access to any creator.

And what is wrong with that? U seem to forget that there is a religious body whose purpose of going to heaven is to have their share of 72 virgins right? Hope they are spoiling your mood too with that believe.

5minsmadness:


I even tried to calm you down and call you brother! I even tried to explain to you that the idea of christianity is not about throwing people in hell fire. We are not to judge! How did I offend you?

5minsmadness:

And you have been the only man in the world to suffer tragedies so much so you now equate christianity with Islam.
It was a mistake trying to talk to you. I agree now whole heartedly. AM sorry I even tried.

johnydon22:
Frank317 and 5minsmadness
Common brothers lets not get personal with this...
Let us let it go and move on.
I love you all here in religious section
We learn alot and have fun with our arguments but no one should take it personal...
Peace to all

frank317:


U are right bro...hey Mr 5minsmadness... Sorry for calling u a fool.

frank317:


U are right bro...hey Mr 5minsmadness... Sorry for calling u a fool.

5minsmadness:

Well I still think you re spiritually frustrated!

Just kidding man.
Sorry if my.comment of spiritually frustrated offended you. I apologise .

johnydon22:


Aaaaaaw am so proud of you two... this is how things should be..
so glad you guys listened to me

now to all here in religion section while arguing about our different religions or different beliefs or orientation, let us not take them personal and use abuse.

No matter our diversity, our humanity is still our bond and love should always be our main view of our fellow humans no matter the difference.

Peace and love be with all...!!!