Symbolic handover of Super Mushshak Aircraft to the Nigerian Air Force by the Pakistan Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chf Mshl Sohail Aman

Litmus:
Now before I'm accused of appearing to not having learned anything from this splendid thread, let me state that I thoroughly enjoyed the history of the Mushark Bidexii shared here. However, when i turned 18, i thought i'd learn to fly and get me a pilot's license. Thus determined, i took myself to Biging Hill in the Uk and booked lessons with one of the flying clubs there. The aircraft i was tutored in was the Cessna 172. Turns out that the Cessna 172 is the aircraft most often used to teach newbies flying. I gave up flying, first lesson. The experience terrified me. The reason for this was that unlike commercial airlines the majority of us use when traveling abroad, the Cessna experience for me was weird. The aircraft was so slow it felt as though we were just hanging in mid-air, the whole of London spread out below. I never thought i had a problem with height until that moment. I realized, however (then and now) that as odd as it may seem, speed can be reassuring, the sense of moving from one point to another, i discovered, is why I've had no difficulty travling in a commercial ariline. When that Cessna landed, i dont mind confessing that i had an ovwhemling urge to kiss the ground.

Apologies for the anecdote above, so here's the thing. The Cessna is a common and unremarkable aircraft accessible to anyone with an interest in flying or ownership. In a sense, it is as unremarkable as muck in most regard apart from espousing its ubiquitousness and ruggedness and so on. The Cessna is propeller driven as is the Mushark, the Cessna is faster than the Mushark and seats more. Why then should the introduction of the Super Musahrk to Nigeria, a powerful Middle income, emerging Nation, be something to celebrate or be excited over?

Simple!

1. Cessna is American made
2. America has refused to sell weapons and aircraftsto Nigeria for current military use
3. Cessna would only sell for strictly civilian use to Nigeria, and never NAF because of "2" above.
4. NAF needed a cheap to maintain propeller aircraftfor ground troop support, so would have needed to weapon use Cessna
5. Super Mushshark is a good substitute without political baggage as in "2" & "3" above
6. NAF went for Super Mushshkh with intention to weaponize it for ground support role.
7. NAF can now effectively do without Brazilian and American Super Tucano with its political baggage.

Hope I was able to make that simple and clear enough?

bidexiii:


Tnks mate and for all ur grammar.

Am sorry to say the super Mushshak and the cessna are two different aircrafts with there intended purpose. Am not saying the cessna is not a good aircraft but av u thought of availability of spare parts and politics of getting such aircrafts from the United States. The CAS said something in an occasion last week even with ur money some countries i.e Americans will not sell to you.

We shouldn't just spilt words anyhow. Now body is over excited here but leave it or take it, it's a giant step. 21 other aircrafts are still on there way from Russia excluding the jf17 "quoting what the CAS Just said on the induction live on NTAi now".

But the Cessna and a world full of so many similar aircraft are none military but can become so just like the Alpha jet bought from the US that beat the Lleahy laws coming to us stripped-down. I learned that here as well as on Begeabels blog/titter, so what do you say that?

homerac7:


Simple!

1. Cessna is American made
2. America has refused to sell weapons and aircraftsto Nigeria for current military use
3. Cessna would only sell for strictly civilian use to Nigeria, and never NAF because of "2" above.
4. NAF needed a cheap to maintain propeller aircraftfor ground troop support, so would have needed to weapon use Cessna
5. Super Mushshark is a good substitute without political baggage as in "2" & "3" above
6. NAF went for Super Mushshkh with intention to weaponize it for ground support role.
7. NAF can now effectively do without Brazilian and American Super Tucano with its political baggage.

Hope I was able to make that simple and clear enough?

Thanks,

but what of my reply to Bedexii

...the Mushark pick shows no weapons,which means we're going to adapt them, you mentioned this too point 6

bidexiii:
Live Press Conference of Operation Lafiya Dole Maiduguri




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy9_9ajeXBg

The most articulate officer of NA i have known of recent time

Major Irabor is a fine officer

Litmus:


But the Cessna and a world full of so many similar aircraft are none military but can become so just like the Alpha jet bought from the US that beat the Lleahy laws coming to us stripped-down. I learned that here as well as on Begeabels blog/titter, so what do you say that?

1. Most aircrafts are sold with end-users' terms in the sales contracts. So you are very likely either not be sold to at all (because NAF is part of "indicted" Nigerian military under Leah's law) or sold on terms that it shall/must not be weaponized.

2. Alpha jet is Franco-German, and I don't think any critical component is under America's controlled technology export, so it's free from their direct embargo. So it's makers aren't American, it's critical components (probably) aren't American, so America has little control over it's sales decision.

Litmus:




Thanks,

but what of my reply to Bedexii

...the Mushark pick shows no weapons,which means we're going to adapt them, you mentioned this too point 6

Oh yes! We are weaponizing them and deploying to the front ASAP.

Given your flying experience in a similar aircraft, I'm sure you can already imagine how useful it would be as ground support aircraft with its mounted machine gun and rocket pods. That's the very essence.

Fynline:



The most articulate officer of NA i have known of recent time

Major Irabor is a fine officer

Yeap.

Did anybody watch the handing over ceremony and the live acrobatic performance by the Mushshak. And other Mushshak trainers parked at there hangers but not painted in green colour. The green colour to me is too ODD.

homerac7:


1. Most aircrafts are sold with end-users' terms in the sales contracts. So you are very likely either not be sold to at all (because NAF is part of "indicted" Nigerian military under Leah's law) or sold on terms that it shall/must not be weaponized.

2. Alpha jet is Franco-German, and I don't think any critical component is under America's controlled technology export, so it's free from their direct embargo. So it's makers aren't American, it's critical components (probably) aren't American, so America has little control over it's sales decision.

Okay, this clarifies, thanks.

Litmus:
Now before I'm accused of appearing to not having learned anything from this splendid thread, let me state that I thoroughly enjoyed the history of the Mushark Bidexii shared here. However, when i turned 18, i thought i'd learn to fly and get me a pilot's license. Thus determined, i took myself to Biging Hill in the Uk and booked lessons with one of the flying clubs there. The aircraft i was tutored in was the Cessna 172. Turns out that the Cessna 172 is the aircraft most often used to teach newbies flying. I gave up flying, first lesson. The experience terrified me. The reason for this was that unlike commercial airlines the majority of us use when traveling abroad, the Cessna experience for me was weird. The aircraft was so slow it felt as though we were just hanging in mid-air, the whole of London spread out below. I never thought i had a problem with height until that moment. I realized, however (then and now) that as odd as it may seem, speed can be reassuring, the sense of moving from one point to another, i discovered, is why I've had no difficulty travling in a commercial ariline. When that Cessna landed, i dont mind confessing that i had an ovwhemling urge to kiss the ground.

Apologies for the anecdote above, so here's the thing. The Cessna is a common and unremarkable aircraft accessible to anyone with an interest in flying or ownership. In a sense, it is as unremarkable as muck in most regard apart from espousing its ubiquitousness and ruggedness and so on. The Cessna is propeller driven as is the Mushark, the Cessna is faster than the Mushark and seats more. Why then should the introduction of the Super Musahrk to Nigeria, a powerful Middle income, emerging Nation, be something to celebrate or be excited over?

my first was on a cessna ,i can't remember the model and my friend was being trained to be a pilot.that day lesson was aircraft stalling and i was in the back seat .the rest is history

#CION
#NAF

homerac7:


Oh yes! We are weaponizing them and deploying to the front ASAP.

Given your flying experience in a similar aircraft, I'm sure you can already imagine how useful it would be as ground support aircraft with its mounted machine gun and rocket pods. That's the very essence.

They would be used purely in the trainer role, none would be weaponised yet.

A BH TECHNICAL BEING DESTROYED BY NAF RAID, ALL LEFT WAS THE BROWNNG HMG...

I second Henry240 's comments.In answer to another person's comments about what the fuss was all about.
This is it.
1.The first real step in acquiring the JF17 past the MOU stage is now down.
2.The NAF will increase it's inventory and it's logistics base.Someone had pointed out the Cessna, that would of been a very bad procurement deal for obvious reasons.
3.Buying the plane without the excess baggage is the first step in becoming a real Air power.
4.Eventually the Leahy Law should become irrelevant. from Nigerian POV.

LTGEN:
I second Henry240 's comments.In answer to another person's comments about what the fuss was all about.
This is it.
1.The first real step in acquiring the JF17 past the MOU stage is now down.
2.The NAF will increase it's inventory and it's logistics base.Someone had pointed out the Cessna, that would of been a very bad procurement deal for obvious reasons.
3.Buying the plane without the excess baggage is the first step in becoming a real Air power.
4.Eventually the Leahy Law should become irrelevant. from Nigerian POV.

Honestly nothing good can come out of those american's except giving out sanctions....

MORE. .

Commander, Nigerian Army Corps of Engineers, Maj Gen Edmund Obi(r) inspects road construction equipment at the &gt.

NIGERIAN ARMY RECRUIT TRAINING DEPOT PASS OUT 5,890 TROOPS; LARGEST INTAKE TURNED OUT SINCE INCEPTION IN 1924


https://beegeagle./2013/12/16/nigerian-army-recruit-training-depot-pass-out-5890-troops-largest-intake-turned-out-since-inception-in-1924/


https://pbs-0.twimg.com/media/Cy5cp2yXAAArUse.jpg:small‎

Litmus:
l. Why then should the introduction of the Super Musahrk to Nigeria, a powerful Middle income, emerging Nation, be something to celebrate or be excited over?

did you see any musician taking the stage or comedian gracing the occasion
As far as I know of NAF traditions...every platform receives an induction ceremony
I don't understand why y'all pick weeds on desert ground

bidexiii:
Commander, Nigerian Army Corps of Engineers, Maj Gen Edmund Obi(r) inspects road construction equipment at the &gt.

NAE & NAS(signals) have some brilliant minds... especially the NAS officers I have met just wreaks of ingenuity

bidexiii:


I'll be happy if these particular riffle was made standard issue for every infantry men. It's the later variant of riffle delivered.

If they can give us licence to produce these sexy riffle I'll be glad. But the AK riffle (74 or 103) is not bad either if we can get a license for that also.

I am wondering why you want a license, cloning a AK-47 or similar gun needs little technology,even some blacksmith work shop in Afhannistan can make,as long as they can buy some important patrs like seamless steel pipe from outside.
most of these made 'AK-47 knock-off 'without license.no Russian authorization .

And making an AK-47 knock-off is meanless ,because they are everywhere, some of them sold at dumping price lower than the cost in black market.AK-74 is more accurate less recoil but not many coutry want to use 5.45mm ammo.

#T72

chinese8107:

I am wondering why you want a license, cloning a AK-47 or similar gun needs little technology,even some blacksmith work shop in Afhannistan can make,as long as they can buy some important patrs like seamless steel pipe from outside.
most of these made 'AK-47 knock-off 'without license.no Russian authorization .

And making an AK-47 knock-off is meanless ,because they are everywhere, some of them sold at dumping price lower than the cost in black market.AK-74 is more accurate less recoil but not many coutry want to use 5.45mm ammo.

DICON makes a clone of the -47
but hey we all know its accuracy issues (and its aesthetics )

chinese8107:

I am wondering why you want a license, cloning a AK-47 or similar gun needs little technology,even some blacksmith work shop in Afhannistan can make,as long as they can buy some important patrs like seamless steel pipe from outside.
most of these made 'AK-47 knock-off 'without license.no Russian authorization .

And making an AK-47 knock-off is meanless ,because they are everywhere, some of them sold at dumping price lower than the cost in black market.AK-74 is more accurate less recoil but not many coutry want to use 5.45mm ammo.

Of course we produce AK'S in DICON, but we are not talking about those AK riffles. I was referring to the AK 74/104 version or the beryl riffle below;

Odunayaw:
DICON makes a clone of the -47
but hey we all know its accuracy issues (and its aesthetics )

God bless u mate.

We r talking about a more efficient,rugged & accurate riffle. Not those rusty riffles that looks like knock off..

bidexiii:


God bless u mate.

We r talking about a more efficient,rugged & accurate riffle. Not those rusty riffles that looks like knock off..

+ the wooden furniture (ugh!!spits** )

#NA

APPRECIATE A SOLDIER'S SERVICE.

Odunayaw:
+ the wooden furniture (ugh!!spits** )

bidexiii:


Of course we produce AK'S in DICON, but we are not talking about those AK riffles. I was referring to the AK 74/104 version or the beryl riffle below;

The both of you have been going about this local production of rifle matter for weeks now. What i want you guys to help me with is, the benefits of a local production of say, a Beryl, a Tavor or an AK-74/Ak-103.

Here are the lines i want you guys to work with.

- Cost of making them in Nigeria than buying from abroad, price difference could be as much as 2,000 dollars a unit. For example imported cost, 3,000 dollars per rifle, locally made variant of that rifle would come in at 5,000. Fact, or let me bring it down to $ 4,000.


- When there are lots of rifle suppliers available.

- Would it not make better sense to invest the money in the production of all types of Ammo and shells which we use, differnt types of Armoured vehicles and locally made ships.

Henry240:




The both of you have been going about this local production of rifle matter for weeks now. What i want you guys to help me with is, the benefits of a local production of say, a Beryl, a Tavor or an AK-74/Ak-103.

Here are the lines i want you guys to work with.

- Cost of making them in Nigeria than buying from abroad, price difference could be as much as 2,000 dollars a unit. For example imported cost, 3,000 dollars per rifle, locally made variant of that rifle would come in at 5,000. Fact, or let me bring it down to $ 4,000.


- When there are lots of rifle suppliers available.

- Would it not make better sense to invest the money in the production of all types of Ammo and shells which we use, differnt types of Armoured vehicles and locally made ships.

If I get you right you are saying the cost of production locally is higher than importing them....

Why would that be;"per-unit/quantity cost + importation cost" can you please shed light on these.

On the production of armoured vehicles the best thing to do is to partner with a private company like proforce and invest heavily on continuous research, like other developed countries do.

bidexiii:


If I get you right you are saying the cost of production locally is higher than importing them....

Why would that be;"per-unit/quantity cost + importation cost" can you please shed light on these.

On the production of armoured vehicles the best thing to do is to partner with a private company like proforce and invest heavily on continuous research, like other developed countries do.

Do we have the infrastructure to produce those high end rifles locally, no we do not.

Yes, the cost of production is usually higher than the cost of importing on some items, rifles fall into this category. The cost goes higher when the infrastructure to produce some of these things don't exists.

All I'm saying is, you guys constantly advocate local production rifles, and I'm specifically referring to rifles, but the cost to benefit ratio shows that it is not economically viable to go into an already saturated market such as rifle production.

Henry240:


Do we have the infrastructure to produce those high end rifles locally, no we do not.

Yes, the cost of production is usually higher than the cost of importing on some items, rifles fall into this category. The cost goes higher when the infrastructure to produce some of these things don't exists.

All I'm saying is, you guys constantly advocate local production rifles, and I'm specifically referring to rifles, but the cost to benefit ratio shows that it is not economically viable to go into an already saturated market such as rifle production.

Honestly to some extent I agree with you. Virtually we don't av the infrastructure and may be resource to bus so end riffles but don't you think we can start from some where..? Am not saying it's going to be easy, let's start inproving little from our OBJ with wooden parts to polymer at least we can start from there..

Coming to the armoured vehicles, especially APC I don't know what is wrong with our generals why would they inport vehicles like honkers & toyota hilux when there is proforce.

If we sit down and calculate the cost of each toyota hilux, the cost of importing them and modification/configuration into military use the deference would not be much in investing in proforce and saving the lives of our troops.

The CAS is seriously fighting the advocacy for finding alternatives for foreign hardwares for local made and as you rightly said the army should start doing something no matter how tight the budget might be. Let's starts from ammo,grenade, shells of different sizes & categories, APC, MRAP's and commandos rangers these I believe our proforce is capable of producing to standard.

Countries like china,pakistan and India are always there but we would always turn to the wrong set of people? DICON as always being on and off l, reason for these I don't know why I thought our partnership with Israel would bring forth good changes but honestly it's still the old DICON that I know, no improvement.