I was totally shocked  at the catholic pontiff's speech which he delivered in his home country of germany and even worse in his own native language,"I understand he speaks 4 languages",which simply implies that he knew exactly the type of message he was trying to send out about his person. That aside, the most annoying and exasperating part of everything is reading the strings posted by NIGERIANS  not Israelis or palestines on this website.
If I might ask what is the business of Nigerians or better still Africans with  things you have no idea how and why it started,you pack  your countries money and take your dead heads to places they call you Alhajis and Jp's "Visitors".when we  have issues like poverty,aids and bad leadership destroying and ruining the most blessed continent on the face of the earth and you,you  ab-led bodied youths of these defiled woman sit here quoting the origin of Islam and Christianity.
where the hell is Timbuktu,the birth place of African civilization and the basis of our own religion and existence,they burnt it down and now call it the centre of Islam in Africa,tell me where are all the  artworks that shows the  creative depth of our forefathers,they called them voodoo dolls and we where instructed KIA KIA  to throw them "away",behold they surfaced in British museums decades after, some allegedly modified by the legendary Picasso aka Mr steal African arts and call them names like pointillism,cubicism  and so on, still my people no wan hear they teach there children about  the so called legend and even hang up his picture at the national theater.
It is a know fact that our ascent religions where sometimes brutal but we should also try to remove the fetish aspects and show our children the beautiful and colorful side e.g beyonce's crazy video, the dance,she said was from a popular African tribe which she modified in addition to this most of Angelique Kidjo's hit tracks here in Europe are actually Yoruba folktales Haba! my people.I was watching CNN with a couple of my white friends when wah la! they showed northerners responding to the cartoon of Mohamed somewhere far away from Nigeria,killing there fellow Nigerians,I was closed to tears and ashamed of my own people acting like zombies,for goodness sake,have you ever ,hen you, Mr Muslim stop to think about the genocide in dafur Sudan, is it about Islam or is it about race,perhaps you guys are colour blind.
Take a look at Cuba,Brazil and some south American countries these people still practice ascent African religion which I think should a shame to any Nigerian or African who has his hand stained with another Nigerian or African's blood.Well I don talk my own,I not against Christianity or Islam what I am worried about is the way my people follow follow things like say they no get sense,sometimes you go even hear Nigerians talk about Christianity and Islam like say them dey there when the thing happen or like say them dey there when them write the bible and Koran. Make we leave bullshitting and fronting for person wey hold the Luger make blood  no stain your correct satin agbada abi Na wetin dey in vogue for naija now.
Anyway that is my own contribution,oppinion and whatever,you don't have to accept it.

@ topic

Did he think the comments would make Muslims happy? They have every right to be annoyed.

belloti:

Havila and David, we both should know by now i am a moderate muslim. But you all know that discussions here have always being painted with sentiments and emotions. I hate violence with a passion. i love peace but i don't like being taken for granted just because someone felt that he most imposed his opinion down my throat.

We can never see things from the same perspective because we are not speaking from the same premise. Our religions has strong fundamental differences which we all strongly believed in. What i always try to do is to bend myself backward in trying to get you to atleast understand the bit of islam you guys sometimes miss. some muslims in nairaland have already lost patience with some of you guys but i bowed to stay and sort things out for as long as it get.

What i rightly said earlier was the Pope was wrong but so was i too by my choice of words.  

You, a peace loving, moderate muslim? Don't make me laugh.
Your kind are always trying to shift the blame from their killings to others. Blaming all the bloodletting you do in the name of your 'religion of peace' on the US foreign policy and the West is the most stupid thing in the world.
The Pope quoted someone else, his words were taken out of context and he apologized. people are reporting it as the first papal apology froma serving pope for something he did in 2000 years, and yet your razed mullahs are urging bloodshed. Please, show me anywhere you have come out condemning such threats.
I always say, silence is complicity. And you HAVE been silent. ergo, you have no right to call yourself a moderate anything.

nilla:

@ topic

Did he think the comments would make Muslims happy? They have every right to be annoyed.

he was quoting the comments of a long dead emperor. At times, we forget that he was a Professor before he became the Pope.
We have no problem with muslims getting angry. What we have stress with is when they take the anger out on other people, killing, maiming, slaughtering. Is that what you support here?

in the 80s, news came out that the US navy was going to name a submarine 'Corpus Christi' which means 'Body of Christ'. The Christian community came out in peaceful protests, wrote to their representatives and got the US navy to rescind the decision. No christian went about burning US Navy facilities and killing Navy men. They emphatically rejected naming a weapon of war after the Christ. That is the hall mark of a religion of peace, not all the senseless killing.

The remarks were misconstrued to be Offensive. but a public apology has been made. that, couppled with the fact that the Pope has stated his desire to continue with Pope John Paul's work of reaching out to muslims should indicate to every bloodthirsty mullah that the remark were not his opinion and were not meant to cause problems.
Unwillingness to accept an apology however, and eagerness to cause bodily harm to christians the world over is no longer the fault or responsibility of the Pope. it now lies with the Islamo-fascists who call for rage, and every other muslim who does nothing about the corruption of his/her faith. Finito!

Islamo-fascists: i wonder why some of you guys love this word.

What we have stress with is when they take the anger out on other people, killing, maiming, slaughtering. Is that what you support here?

i defintely don't support that.



Do you just sit down and quote any comments, not thinking of the repercussions?

nilla:

Islamo-fascists: i wonder why some of you guys love this word.
Do you just sit down and quote any comments, not thinking of the repercussions?

It is only when it comes to muslims that we have to think of "repercussions" when it comes to ordinary 12th century quotes! Do they think of repercussions when they post 101 contradictions in the bible? Do they think of repercussions when they bomb churches and kill nuns?
Is Ahmedinajad thinking of repercussions when he calls for the destruction of the USA and Isreal?

Are there repercussions for anti-semitic and anti- christian paintings in Museums of islamic countries? Why must we be thinking of repercussions onlyy when it is in regard to muslims?
When their quran refers to us as "apes, pigs and infidels", is anyone thinking of repercussions?

nilla:

Islamo-fascists: i wonder why some of you guys love this word.
i defintely don't support that.



Do you just sit down and quote any comments, not thinking of the repercussions?

Stronger words exist than Islamo-fascists. We just won't use them.


i got this off someone's post. read it.


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Although not a religious person myself, I am usually in favor of a revitalization of Christianity in Europe. However, I sometimes have my doubts when I see how many, too many, church leaders consistently end up on the wrong side of issues related to Islam and Muslim immigration.

Bat Ye’or claims that dhimmitude in the Middle East has often progressed because Christian leaders have sold out their own people, either for short-term personal gains or in the mistaken belief that they have a “shared religious heritage” with Muslims. It is also frequently Christian leaders and bishops in the West who are calling for open borders for poor, destitute Muslims because “it is the Christian thing to do.”

The Protestant Lutheran Church in the German city of Hannover organized an exhibition to acquaint the Germans with Islam. The exhibition, entitled “The Faces of Islam,” was the work of the female students of the Protestant Studies Institute in Aachen. On Palm Sunday in 2006, a Protestant church in Bochum, Germany celebrated Muhammad’s birthday and invited the local Turkish community to attend the service. A Turkish music band played Sufi music during the service, in which Protestants and Muslims joined together in honor of Muhammad.

In the UK, church leaders wanted to invite the families of the London suicide bombers to a national memorial service in honor of the victims. Two senior Church of England bishops believed that extending the invitation to the bombers’ families would acknowledge their own loss and send a powerful message of reconciliation to the Muslim community. Dr John Sentamu, the Archbishop of York, urged the nation to unite and turn would-be suicide bombers into friends by building “an inclusive circle of love.”

The same Archbishop has also said that British Christians should see Muslims as allies in the struggle against secularism. A number of Christian, and some Jewish, leaders shared this point of view both during the death threats against Salman Rushdie and during the Danish cartoon Jihad.

Meanwhile, in Indonesia, about 10,000 Christians have been killed between 1998 and 2003 and about 1,000 churches have been burnt down by Muslim mobs. The radicals want Indonesia to be the foundation of a Southeast Asian caliphate that will launch Jihad against other nations such as Singapore, Thailand, the Philippines and Australia until they submit to Islam. In the Indonesian province Aceh, where sharia law officially prevails, Muslim mobs razed a church in response to a forged (by a Muslim) advertisement inviting Muslims to a Christian revival service. Witnesses said there were over 100 Muslim men present, many of them carrying swords. They poured gasoline over the building and set fire to it.

Why this aggressive reaction? According to Islamic law, Christians and Jews (not other religious groups) can live in an area dominated by Muslims, but only if they accept their status as second-rate citizens, dhimmis. This implies many restrictions, such as never trying to convert or preach to Muslims, never to have a relationship with a Muslim woman and never to say anything insulting about Islam or Muhammad. If even one single person breaches any of these conditions, the entire dhimmi community will be punished, and Jihad resumes. Notice that while Muslims, following each case of Islamic terrorism, are quick to say that not all Muslims should be punished for the actions of a few, this is precisely what sharia prescribes for non-Muslims.

What’s worse is that in practice, as in this case from Indonesia, attacks on non-Muslims can be triggered by unconfirmed rumors, personal grudges by Muslims or outright lies. In reality, this means that all non-Muslims will live with a constant, internalized fear of saying or doing anything that could insult Muslims, which would immediately set off physical attacks against them and their children. This state of constant fear is called dhimmitude. Many Middle Eastern, Pakistani and Indonesian Christians know that as a matter of survival, they must say one thing in public and another in private. They are held hostage in their own countries.

In Egypt, a film depiction of someone converting to Islam and then becoming disillusioned with his new religion was enough to bring more than 5,000 protestors to the church, get a nun stabbed and three people killed. Muslims interpreted it as a breach of the traditional Islamic law mandating death for anyone who leaves Islam, and of the old dhimmi laws forbidding non-Muslims to proselytize.

Bishop Armia of the Coptic Church in Egypt, which predates the 7th century Arab invasion and preserves the last remainder of the language of the ancient pharaohs, assured that “Copts would never tolerate anyone insulting Islam.” Coptic Pope Shenouda III, knowing fully well that any provocation could mean mayhem and murder for his fellow Copts, has reiterated that “any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ.”

Several recent incidents have demonstrated that Muslims are now trying to apply these dhimmi rules to the entire Western world. The most important one was the burning of churches and embassies triggered by the Danish cartoons depicting Muhammad. This was, down to the last comma, exactly the way Muslims would treat the persecuted non-Muslims in their own countries. The cartoon Jihad indicated that Muslims now felt strong enough to apply sharia rules to Denmark, and by extension NATO. Hardly anybody in the mainstream Western media made any attempts to explain this to the public.

In another case, angry protests raged across the Muslim world over a Newsweek magazine report that interrogators at the U.S. military prison Guantanamo Bay had put the Koran on toilets, and in at least one case flushing it down. The escalating violence prompted Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to urge Muslims to resist calls for violence. “Disrespect for the Holy Koran is abhorrent to us all,” she said. Newsweek later retracted their original article, which was found to be baseless.

In November 2002, days before the Miss World pageant in Nigeria, a Nigerian newspaper published an article in which the writer suggested that Islam’s prophet, Muhammad, would have approved the pageant and would have chosen a wife amongst the contestants. The article sparked a Jihad riot in which over 200 people were killed and thousands injured. The next day, the newspaper published an apology. The president of Nigeria went on national television and condemned the newspaper. He said, “It could happen anytime irresponsible journalism is committed against Islam.”

As one African observer later noted about the Newsweek story, the reaction of the White House in the United States was largely similar to that a Third World president gave when faced with the same challenge. For Muslims, the world’s only remaining superpower appeared to play the role of dhimmis.

Bishop Artemije, the spiritual leader of Kosovo’s beleaguered Serbs, has warned against Western support for an independent state in the province, where Muslim Albanians greatly outnumber Christian Serbs and have destroyed many churches and monasteries under the auspices of NATO soldiers. The Bishop warns that independence would reward ethnic cleansing of non-Muslims. Since 9-11, he said, “the United States has been engaged in a global struggle against jihad terrorism, which threatens not just America but peaceful people of all faiths and nationalities. That is why we who live in the Serbian province of Kosovo and Metohija find it difficult to understand why so many voices of influence in Washington support a course of action that would hand to the terrorists a significant victory in Europe.”

While Muslims responded with deadly outrage to the now-retracted report by Newsweek of alleged Koran desecration, there was little outcry when Islamic gunmen in 2002 holed up in Bethlehem’s Church of the Nativity, assumed to be the birthplace of Jesus Christ, used the Bible as toilet paper. About 30 priests, monks and nuns, and more than 150 Palestinian civilians, who hid inside to escape a gun battle between Israelis and Palestinians, remained inside the church with the armed militants for more than five weeks. Some of the Palestinian fighters, who belonged to the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, part of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat’s Fatah organization, were received as heroes when they later returned to Gaza.

During the so-called Oslo peace process from the mid 1990s, while Palestinian authorities received financial support from Western nations, Arafat increased the boundaries of Bethlehem to include nearby Muslim villages, and encouraged Muslims to settle in the city. As a result, the percentage of Christians rapidly declined.

The Islamic gunmen were also responsible for the rape and murder of two Christian teenage sisters. The assailants claimed that the sisters had been murdered because they were “prostitutes” and had been “collaborating” with Israeli security forces. “The gangsters murdered the two sisters so that they would not tell anyone about the rape,” said a family member. “Many Christian families have sent their daughters abroad for fear they would come under attack by Muslim men.” “Some of the murderers were later killed by the Israeli army, but others are now living in Europe after they had sought refuge in the Church of Nativity. It’s absurd that Muslim men who rape and murder Christian girls are given political asylum in Christian countries like Ireland, Spain and Italy.”

The irony is that the same sexual harassment and rape of non-Muslim women, part and parcel of Jihad, is now spreading to cities in Western Europe with many Muslim immigrants.

Professor Weiner, Scholar in Residence at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, provides an in-depth look into the nearly uninterrupted persecution of Christians throughout the decade since the Oslo peace process began. The Christians have shrunk to less than 1.7 percent of the population in the Palestinian areas. “Tens of thousands have abandoned their holy sites and ancestral properties to live abroad, while those who remain do so as a beleaguered and dwindling minority,” Weiner said. “Their plight is, in part, attributable to the adoption of Muslim religious law (sharia) in the constitution of the Palestinian Authority. Moreover, the Christians have been abandoned by their religious leaders who, instead of protecting them, have chosen to curry favor with the Palestinian leadership.”

More than 500 Muslim men, chanting Allahu akbar, attacked the Christian village of Taiba east of Ramallah. “They poured kerosene on many buildings and set them on fire. Many of the attackers broke into houses and stole furniture, jewelry and electrical appliances,” said one resident. The attack was triggered by the murder of a Muslim woman from the nearby village of Deir Jarir. Her family forced her to drink poison for having had a romance with a Christian man from Taiba. Muslim men can marry Christian women, but Islamic law forbids Muslim women from marrying Christian men. The Christian community was thus collectively punished because it was rumored that one of their members had breached the rules of dhimmitude.

In a meeting attended by Robert Spencer, former Soviet dissident Natan Sharansky noted that Israel had again and again aided Christians – at their own request – against Islamic violence and injustice, most notably when the Church of the Nativity was occupied by Jihadists in 2002. Yet international Christian leaders, he said, have not responded with similar gestures toward Israel. He is right. While Christians are persecuted on a daily basis in Muslim nations and may soon be wiped out in the Holy Land, Christian organizations in the West are too frequently engaged in “dialogue” with Muslims and demonization of Israel. Christians need to realize that they have much more in common with other non-Muslims, not just Jews, but Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Atheists, than they will ever have with Muslims. Jussi Halla-Aho, running for parliament in Finland as an independent candidate, has come to some of the same conclusions as I have regarding the Leftist-Islamic cooperation in many Western nations: The Left milks the working natives to maintain a predominantly idle immigrant population, who thankfully vote for the Left. The welfare state society thus has to support two parasites, each living in a symbiotic relationship with the other. This will eventually cause the system to collapse. Why would anyone support a policy that leads to certain destruction? Well, because a career politician never sets his sights 20, 50 or 100 years to the future but instead focuses on the next election. The short-term focus of our democratic system can thus, combined with Muslim immigration, turn into a fatal flaw.

But Halla-Aho asks an even more important question: “Why do the voters let all this happen? It is because Westerners like to be ‘good’ people and believe that their fellow men are equally good people. It is because they have humane values.” “It is because the moral and ethical values of Western man have made him helpless in the face of wickedness and immorality.”

Our Western “moral and ethical values” are profoundly influenced by Judeo-Christian thinking. Will our openness to outsiders, our democratic system and our Christian compassion, precisely the values that we cherish the most, render the West incapable of withstanding Jihad? A good Christian has to turn the other cheek and love his enemies. How are we to reconcile this with the reality that Muslims regard this as a sign of weakness? And how can we fight sharia when bishops and church leaders are the first to call for a “compassionate” immigration policy that allows masses of Muslims to settle here? Christians argue that Europe’s problem is a cultural vacuum created by the retreat of church attendance and Christianity as a religion, which has paved the way for Islam to enter. They have a point, as I have shown before. But some Christian groups are opening the West to Islam, too, and the secular state doesn’t have to be insipid and toothless. Far from it, it was secular states that fought and defeated the Fascist regimes during WW2 and risked the destruction of the planet in the Cold War. The non-religious authorities in China are far more ruthless in crushing any Islamic aggression than most Christian countries are. Of course, the downside is that they are far more ruthless in crushing anything deemed to be a potential challenge to their power.

Luckily, not all Christian leaders are appeasers of Islam. One of the intelligent ones comes from Australia, a country that has been fairly resistant to Political Correctness. They have taken serious steps towards actually enforcing their own borders, despite the predictable outcries from various NGOs and anti-racists, and Prime Minister John Howard has repeatedly proven to be one of the most sensible leaders in the Western world. George Cardinal Pell, Archbishop of Sydney, tells of how September 11 was a wake-up call for him personally:

“I recognised that I had to know more about Islam.” “In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages.” “The predominant grammatical form in which jihad is used in the Koran carries the sense of fighting or waging war.” “Considered strictly on its own terms, Islam is not a tolerant religion and its capacity for fear-reaching renovation is severely limited.” “I’d also say that Islam is a much more war-like culture than Christianity.” “I’ve had it asserted to me is that in the relationship between the Islamic and non-Islamic world, the normal thing is a situation of tension if not war, or outright hostility.”

Pope Benedict XVI, nicknamed “God’s rottweiler” as a cardinal, seems to embody elements of both the sensible and the silly Christian ways of dealing with the Islamic threat. Although Benedict has stressed the need for “reciprocity” in Christian-Muslim relations and urged Islamic countries to ensure religious rights for Christian migrants, he has also said that Christians should continue welcoming Muslim immigrants with open arms.

It caused an uproar in the Islamic world when Benedict XVI, as a part of a longer dissertation, quoted a 14th century Byzantine emperor’s hostile view of Islam’s founder: “Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.” Benedict later said he was “deeply sorry” for the reaction to his comments on Islam and that the quote he used from the medieval text about holy wars did not reflect his personal thoughts. Although this technically constitutes a non-apology apology and was deemed “unsatisfactory” by Muslims, many anti-Jihadists would have preferred the Pope to use the opportunity to make a clearer stand against Islamic aggression.

Still, his comments raised public debate about the issue, and certainly marked progress compared to his predecessor Pope John Paul II, who kissed the Koran in public in an effort to reach our to Muslims.

I have described examples of incredible stupidity and appeasement from Christians in the West, but also of courage and clarity of mind in standing up to Islamic aggression and defending Western civilization and the world from sharia. The ideological civil war within the West is not just between secularists and religious people; it runs straight through the Church itself.

Christians need to understand that there can be no peace or understanding with the Islamic world. They want to subdue us, pure and simple. Church leaders of all denominations, Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, must stop stabbing Israel in the back and campaigning for a de facto open borders policy while Muslims are threatening to swamp our lands. Yes, Christianity teaches compassion, but it also teaches identifying evil and standing up to it. At the end of the day, the Church must decide whether, in the defense of civilization, it wants to be a part of the problem or a part of the solution.
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texazzpete:

Yes, Christianity teaches compassion, but it also teaches identifying evil and standing up to it. At the end of the day, the Church must decide whether, in the defense of civilization, it wants to be a part of the problem or a part of the solution.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above highlighted text is the crux of the matter, i get puzzled when i see a lot of supposedly "christians" here busy singing the "Islam is bad, muslims are not" tune. Indeed Jesus Christ died for ALL men but HE was not unequivocal in flogging those who came selling stuff in the temple neither did HE consider HIS friendship with Peter before rebuking him!

The bible admonishes us to turn the other cheek when smitten, it also says to RESIST THE DEVIL AND HE WILL FLEE FROM US! You do not resist something by being passive, the world has shown much too much love to islam, it is time to nip its growing fundamentalism in the bud!

Word

Dear Belloti:
Can you define a moderate muslim as Davidylan asked? and the only reason why you think we can not see things from the same perspective is because you delibrately want to close your reasoning-tank. That is unfortunate, and it is an attempt to resist logical analysis of your religion and my faith.
The bible said , 'come let us reason together., ' God encourages us to ask Him for wisdom and to think through our actions, thoughts and philosophies of life and not to subject ourselves to dogmatic leading by barely literate 'sheiks/mullahs/ustas etc' who will do everything to prevent you from having a deeper understanding of the idolatory called islam. That is why that vagabond called muhammed preaches it to you to either kill people or show them mercy only if they agree to convert to islam as the quotation form the quran showed. Now, if you are a deep thinking person, you will know this is not a matter of differences in principles but a pure matter of confession by duress.
As for the muslims who you claimed 'got tired', no they did not get tired but only ran out of any scholastic premise to continue a principled-based debate. That is always the case, remeber a Yoruba proverb that 'when lie runs for twenty years, it only takes the twinkle of an eye for truth to catch up' Truth and Light has entered the forum, therefore darkness and lies have no choice but to 'get tired.'

"It is a know fact that our ascent religions where sometimes brutal but we should also try to remove the fetish aspects and show our children the beautiful and colorful side e.g beyonce's crazy video, the dance,she said was from a popular African tribe which she modified in addition to this most of Angelique Kidjo's hit tracks here in Europe are actually Yoruba folktales Haba! my people,
, take a look at Cuba,Brazil and some south American countries these people still practice ascent African religion which I think should a shame to any Nigerian or African who has his hand stained with another Nigerian or African's blood.Well I don talk my own,I not against Christianity or Islam what I am worried about is the way my people follow follow things like say they no get sense"

Now another idiot has come into a sensible intellectual discussion with solutions of his own. Segelo, are you a footballer, a bouncer or american football player? Whatever you do, you must be engaged in a kind of work where people don't think much. This is evident in your post with consistent misspelling of "ancient as ascent" among other shallow-thinking messages to everybody else.
So we must continue in the idolatory  and other cultural mal-behaviour of old age, abi? Why do you think HIV/AIDS is spreading so fast in Africa? It is due to our deeply rooted, ingraned cultural behaviour that undermines the power of the women, encourages multiple sexual partners, encourages sacrifices and scarifications of bodies with unsterilised instruments etc.
All the idolatory and shedding of blood of the olden days, where has it led us in Africa? that you want to be proud of it. So Beyonce shaking her booty is from an African tribe, fantastic and we should be proud, what a slowpoke!! Dude, shut-up if you don't have anything brainy to say. This forum is for thinkers not brawlers

Havila:

Now another idiot has come into a sensible intellectual discussion with solutions of his own. Segelo, are you a footballer, a bouncer or american football player? Whatever you do, you must be engaged in a kind of work where people don't think much. This is evident in your post with consistent misspelling of "ancient as ascent" among other shallow-thinking messages to everybody else.
So we must continue in the idolatory and other cultural mal-behaviour of old age, abi? Why do you think HIV/AIDS is spreading so fast in Africa? It is due to our deeply rooted, ingraned cultural behaviour that undermines the power of the women, encourages multiple sexual partners, encourages sacrifices and scarifications of bodies with unsterilised instruments etc.All the idolatory and shedding of blood of the olden days, where has it led us in Africa? that you want to be proud of it. So Beyonce shaking her booty is from an African tribe, fantastic and we should be proud, what a slowpoke!! Dude, shut-up if you don't have anything brainy to say. This forum is for thinkers not brawlers

Havila,

You don't sound like someone who is interested in intellectual discussions. With all the name calling to the poster you refered to above, I wonder what room you left for intellectual discussions based on his/her position.

First, you need to explain why you believe that your views are superior or better than the poster's.

The issue of multiple sexual partners you raised, do we have any society where people do not have multiple sexual partners regardless of what people would rather have us believe?

[b]Havila, am deeply disappointed with your careless remarks. Irrespective of my disdain for christianity, i have to respect the christians freedom of choice to worship and believe. You don't have to say nasty things about islam to get your points across. We don't all agree with each others doctrines but we are here to discuss a possible solution to global peace. i don't think you are still talking in context.

Am beginning to understand why David and the Texas-fool are beginning to question the impatience and intolerance of some of my muslim brethren. I think you are right here. It doesnt make sense if foolish and nasty statements can easily lead to bloodshed in muslim countries but christians  always goes for a more peaceful protest. I think we muslims need to look inward and address the anomaly. Some of us are sincerely doing that.

The bane of our problem here is hatred. Am sure some of you guys here will never give a hoot, if an engineering accident in west bank or gaza lead to a collapse school building killing a 100 palestinian kids. you might probably see that as a good riddance. It has nothing to do with out intellect or sense of judgement its purely spurious hatred. I don't feel that way about Israel thought i totally disagree with their isolated killings of innocent palestians.

The only way we can understand ourselves is if that is what we sincerely want to do. i heard Bush this morning talking to Wolf Blitzer of CNN and i quote " Islam is a peaceful religion, majority of muslims are peace-lovers but there are some element among the muslims that are using religion to score political point". I think he is 100% correct. But it also didnt make sense killing thousands of Innocent Iraqis just to catch Saddam. Saddam is a politician and not an islamic figure, fighting Saddam is not fighting Islam but Killing innocent civilians is the greatest atrocity on earth. Innocent Muslims or Christians should not be the victims of senseless war of pride.[/b]

One thing is quite clear, muslims sure over-reacts. Everyone knows that there is no smoke without fire. It is only when muslim over reacts that the world notices that something caused their reactions. I think the world should know that Islam is a religion that needs no modifications, the moment the world thinks Islam can be amended or talk into being modernised, muslim will always over reacts. The truth however is, Islam will always be like that because it is a complete religion, a way of life. This means if you decide to live your life as islam dictates, you will never allow anyone to tarnish its existence.
Having said this, religion is part of politics, and you can never separate the two from each other. The Pope's unwarranted outburst is political in nature, because he said it during Sept. 11 anniversary, and we all know that Bush is really using this to soar up his ratings. As long as religion is part of politics, muslim will always reacts, because their religion is not safe in the hands of those who hold power in the world.
One thing must be put in mind though, it will always boil down on the issue of Israelis and Palestinians. Unless this issues is resolved, we are all seems to be wasting our time.

@texazzpete
That was a lenghty article you quoted,but I had to read it to the end becaise it's deeply illuminating.
ISLAMIC TERRORISM is the menace of the age,like Nazism,Fascism and Communism once was.
The earlier the world wakes up to that fact the better.

Pearl2,

What was wrong with communism?

Please, enlighten me.

@twinstaiye
You've unwittingly revealed something very disturbing in the psyche of an average Muslim.
A deep seated insecurity that manifested in the life of Muhammad himself,and he passed it down to his followers.
If his religion is true why did he murder his opponents who questioned his absurd claims?
Do you know how he spread his religion? by force and terror; killing,maiming,assasinating ,taken women as sex-slaves, had scores of them as wives/concubines;stoop so low to take a 6 year old girl and consummated the affair when she was 9.
In the end by his own mouth declared,he didnt know what Allah would do to him,because he was a highway plunderer and a sex-fiend.
Does that read like a profile of a credible prophet?
Are you conversant with these facts about Islam or you need the references to challenge the false claims about it being a complete religion?

I hope we wont get side-tracked into changing the thread to discussing communism.
Communism was one of the great evils of the last century.
If you are conversant with the atrocities of Stalin alone in Russia,the bastion of communism you would be totally convinced of its utter horror.
In the end,some historians believe that Stalin was a mass-murderer even worse than Hitler.
When I think of him,I remember a movie of his life I saw; "Stalin-Death had a name".
Communism brought death and woe as Stalin personified.
And that was a lone figure out of many.

Pearl2,

You would have been able to explain what was wrong with communism even with the seven lines of response you posted.

Just go straight to the point and tell me (and maybe others that want to know) what was wrong with communism.

If you do not know what was wrong, please say so and lets move on. I don't know why people make statements that they don't have sound understanding of.

So, what was wrong with communism? I am not asking about Stalin as I have read a lot of books about him over 18 years ago so I am clear on who the man was.

Something new please.

am surprised u read books about Stalin and u don't know what's wrong with Communism,Stalin was one the high-ranking apostles of that doctrine.And he murdered 11 million of his countrymen in the name of the creed.If that's the only thing I know about communism to be convinced of how it valued human life then am satisfied.
Hitler killed 6 million Jews and other nationalities.So what's wrong with Nazism?

May be u shoud create a separate thread on communism and let people talk about it,as this is mainly on the pope and islam.

pearl2:

@twinstaiye
You've unwittingly revealed something very disturbing in the psyche of an average Muslim.
A deep seated insecurity that manifested in the life of Muhammad himself,and he passed it down to his followers.
If his religion is true why did he murder his opponents who questioned his absurd claims?
Do you know how he spread his religion? by force and terror; killing,maiming,assasinating ,taken women as sex-slaves, had scores of them as wives/concubines;stoop so low to take a 6 year old girl and consummated the affair when she was 9.
In the end by his own mouth declared,he didnt know what Allah would do to him,because he was a highway plunderer and a sex-fiend.
Does that read like a profile of a credible prophet?
Are you conversant with these facts about Islam or you need the references to challenge the false claims about it being a complete religion?

I need not join issues with you, you can interprete history of the Muhammed as you like, but I dont believe in it. Those are what you people are good at, provoking the person of Muhammed (SAW) even though you knew the muslims does not like it, and when we reacts, you say we are terrorists. Muslim will never say anything bad about any prophet of God Prophet Isa (Jesus) inclusive.

twinstaiye:

I need not join issues with you, you can interprete history of the Muhammed as you like, but I don't believe in it. Those are what you people are good at, provoking the person of Muhammed (SAW) even though you knew the muslims does not like it, and when we reacts, you say we are terrorists. Muslim will never say anything bad about any prophet of God Prophet Isa (Jesus) inclusive.

Please, twinstaiye. . . cool temper.

I know of many Muslims who have said unprintable things about Jesus and treated Him as if He's Muhammad's courtier or household servant! The lack of respect for Jesus Christ is evident among many Muslims; and not counting or meaning that you're one of them, I observe that whenever Muslims write or say the name 'Muhammad', you follow it up quickly with an invocation (SAW or PBUH).

Check your post again - although you didn't say anything bad about Jesus, you typically left out the invocation. Not that I believe in the invocation as such, but the point I'd like to make here is that you're very wrong to suppose that Muslims will never say anything bad about any prophet of God. On the contrary, many have done so time and again.

Pearl2,

So you are very much aware that the thread is abour pope and muslim and you intorduced communism?

I am not discussing Hitler here.

Did Stalin murder his people because they opposed or supported communism or for some other reasons?

Limit your discussions to what you understand in future.

If the number of deaths caused by what a particular country is based on any idealogy then communism (assuming the ideology itself causes deaths) may have fared better than whatever ideology that the West (for want of a better way to put it) practices.

But if you don't have any reasonable information on this, just let it pass but don't delve into unfamiliar terrains next time just because you are making use of a discussion forum.

@twinstaiye
I hope you don't bury your head like an ostritch in the sand for too long.
It is not a question of interpreting, it's about what the wives,sex-slaves and the contemporary mullahs of Muhammad said or wrote about him that we refer to.These are from Islamic 'holy books'.

You can't say anything evil about Jesus,because he was completely sinless.Even people who tried him couldn't find anything wrong with him.
Muhammad had too many skeletons in his cupboard and it stinks so much,that's why u get jittery and ready to kill people when they know this and say it.
If Muhammad was brought to trial like Jesus was,he would have been convicted of murders,assasinations,incitement to murder,genocide,war crimes,rape,paedophile,piracy(in the original sense), armed robbery and plagiarization of the Talmud and the Holy Bible,etc.
So much for a prophet.

Jesus said 'you would know the truth and the truth would set you free'.

Afam,
I sympathize with your compartmentalized reasoning.
I still stand by my statement that in the era gone by,communism was the menace of the age just like the sons/slaves of Allah and their doctrine of Jihad is the evil of our own present age.
'assuming the ideology itself causes death'.
That speaks volume about your knowledge of communism.
Ask the victims of its horrors and purges in Russia,China, and nations of former Soviet bloc and elsewhere in Africa and they would be able to enlighten you better whether it causes death.
Even hardboiled communists unabashedly say this.

I've challenged you to open  another thread and enlighten us on the peace and tranquility we're missing when communism ceased to be the dominant terror of our world.

Pearl2,

Thanks for the sympathy.

Meanwhile, the space and energy expended in dodging the question seem more than enough for anyone that understands communism to highlight the evil it represents.

Talking about purges, I guess you may have started playing about with google or wikipedia.

No need for spreading the dragnet, explain yourself or let it pass.

It is becoming common these days for people to make statements they know nothing about and you are just one more statistic my dear to the already growing number.

Enjoy.

@Afam
I've asked you the 'expert' on the idyllic lost paradise of communism to educate us on it.
No need to google it because,my knowledge of it predates the google and wikipedia era and besides, it has become an impotent force and dogma,confined in its revisioned, less harmful form to ?Russia, China,Cuba and the backwater,hunger-plagued North Korea.

And if you are perceptive enough like your supposed much reading  should have made you,you would know I didn't dodge the question.

The onus lies on you to explain to your audience why you think communism was evil.

I would have done the explanation if I had made the statement.

Thanks for your time. I am cool with your responses thus far, not surprising at all.

I only hope that you get to understand that things are not bad just because some people say so. Only when you can demonstrate the validity or otherwise of a statement or position can you boldly take a stand on it.

Do have a great day.

@ Belloti

The only way we can understand ourselves is if that is what we sincerely want to do. i heard Bush this morning talking to Wolf Blitzer of CNN and i quote " Islam is a peaceful religion, majority of muslims are peace-lovers but there are some element among the muslims that are using religion to score political point". I think he is 100% correct. But it also didnt make sense killing thousands of Innocent Iraqis just to catch Saddam. Saddam is a politician and not an islamic figure, fighting Saddam is not fighting Islam but Killing innocent civilians is the greatest atrocity on earth. Innocent Muslims or Christians should not be the victims of senseless war of pride.

Yes i agree with you on the highlighted statement, Bush was 100% POLITICALLY correct! Of course what do you expect a man who has important muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan to say? Knowing the intolerance of muslims, he is fully aware any statement that depicts the true violent nature of Islam will automatically put every innocent American citizen every where in the world in danger of death!

If my memory has not failed me yet, the "thousands of Iraqis" you mention where NOT killed by US soldiers but by Iraqis themselves, simply blaming the US for Sunnis killing shiites and vice versa will not wash!

davidylan:

If my memory has not failed me yet, the "thousands of Iraqis" you mention where NOT killed by US soldiers but by Iraqis themselves, simply blaming the US for Sunnis killing shiites and vice versa will not wash!

Over 26,000 deaths recorded in Iraq this year, about 6,000 between July and August.

These deaths would not have occured had the US not invaded Iraq based on a pack of lies and turned the people against one another.

Saddam remains a Sunni (minority in Iraq) but supported by the West especially the US because he believed in secularism as against the Shiites that wanted a full islamic state.

The US invaded Iraq, and handed Saddam to the Shiites, his "enemies".

The US soldiers have killed and raped innocent Iraqi women and girls before, this is no news.

Why did the US arm Saddam even with chemical weapons which he freely used in the Iraq-Iran war and the Kurds (within Iraq) without any condemnation whatsoever from the US?

Until we begin to question the moral authority of the US based on its hypocrisy and double standards we may be encouraging the fuelling of the crisis in the middle east without knowing.

Guys,

This post is about "Comments By Pope Benedict XVI Annoy Muslims", not about why America invaded Islam. I want to know why Muslims get very angry whenever anything is said about the prophet mohammed or about Allah.

I will like us to review this post

""Dear Browneyes/Mukina2/ Firdau4u/Olabowale and other muslims here, grab your Quran and do some research and get information on the following:
(1) The Quaran teaches that muslims must read and accept the Bible (Read Sura 5:47-50, Sura 55:69, Sura 2:53, Sura 10:94-95, Sura 4:82.

(2) The Quran testifies to the miraculous birth of Jesus through a virgin. (Sura 19:20, Sura 19:16-35)
- That Jesus was without sin (Sura 19:19)
-That Jesus performed many miracles including raising people from death. (Surah 3:119, Surah 5:113, Surah 22:73)
-That Jesus ascended into heaven and He is still there. (Surah 4:158) and He is coming back.
-Quran refers ro Jesus as Al-Masih i.e. the Messiah. (Surah 4:157, 171,172, Surah 9:31, Surah 3:45)
-Quran refers to Jesus as KALIMATULLAH i.e the Word of God (Surah 4:171, Surah 3:45) and also as Ruhun-minhu or Ruhullah i.e Spirit of God (Surah 4:171, Surah 58:22.) So is the Word of God and Spirit of God part of Him or a separate entity?. If possible, see Yusuf Alli's translation of the Quran, note 5365, p 1518, it states Jesus is the Very Spirit of God Himself.

(3) The Quran teaches that the followers of Jesus are superior (Read Sura 3:45 pleeaaseeeee and come on board fast)

(4) The Quran teaches that no one beside God can give life (Surah 22:73) and it also teaches that JESUS created and gave life (Surah 3:49, Surah 5:113). What does this mean?--by implication it means that Jesus must be God. From the QURAN!!!!!! Shocked"".

Are they true, if yes - then why all the trouble, if no - what is true?