malvisguy212:
God has already sanctions the sending awy of ishmael and his mother before the sacrifice take place,even the quran recognized ONLY Isaac in the prophetic Race:
Surah 29:27: And (as for Abraham),
We bestowed upon him Isaac and
(Isaac’s son) Jacob, and caused
prophethood and revelation to
continue among his offspring.

Ishmael is the FIRST born, if a name should be omitted, that is soppose to be Isaac but the quran say otherwise.

so you are relying on the Quran now. You want me to school you on that? Despite the fact that Ismael was sent away, did he cease to be Abraham son? I quoted a verse earlier where he partook in Abraham's burial and he was referred to has Abraham son.
In the Quran as well, Isaac hasn't been born before Abraham was tried. It was after he passed the trial that Abraham was blessed further with a righteous son.

malvisguy212:
the quran say , Allah gave Jesus the book (injil)

" He [Jesus] said, "Lo, I am God's
servant; God has given me the Book,
and made me a Prophet." S. 19:30"

But the problem is this; you say the book was not meant to last for ever without any prove. The truth is that you don't know the quran very well, you only say word that you think is right. Without prove.

Angel Gabriel and the holy spirit are different, who deliver the message to Mary? Is it not Gabriel?

Surah 21:91: “And (remember) her
who guarded her chastity: We
breathed into her of OUR SPIRIT, and
We made her and her son a sign for
all peoples.” (Yusuf Ali)

Is this spirit you called the angel Gabriel? Gabriel only came to deliver message.

You still don't get the logic here. Why do you have the new tastament when there is an old testament? The new testament abrogates laws in the old testament and clearly define a new law. Example The eye for an eye in the old testament has been abrogated by the new law in the new testament. So the law in the old testament became null and void and of no effect at all. The Quran abrogates the gospel and the gospel is rendered null.
On the issue of holy ghost, “And We gave ‘Eesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rooh-ul-Qudus [Jibreel (Gabriel)]

[al-Baqarah 2:87]
“Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others; to some of them Allâh spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour); and to ‘Eesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), We gave clear proofs and evidences, and supported him with Rooh ul Qudus [Jibreel (Gabriel)]”[al-Baqarah 2:253]

Confirmer:

You still don't get the logic here. Why do you have the new tastament when there is an old testament? The new testament abrogates laws in the old testament and clearly define a new law. Example The eye for an eye in the old testament has been abrogated by the new law in the new testament. So the law in the old testament became null and void and of no effect at all. The Quran abrogates the gospel and the gospel is rendered null.
On the issue of holy ghost, “And We gave ‘Eesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rooh-ul-Qudus [Jibreel (Gabriel)]

[al-Baqarah 2:87]
“Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others; to some of them Allâh spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour); and to ‘Eesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), We gave clear proofs and evidences, and supported him with Rooh ul Qudus [Jibreel (Gabriel)]”[al-Baqarah 2:253]

no, Jesus fullfiled the law in the old testament.

The law is a manifestation of the perfect
holiness of God, and was given to us
(humanity) to show how utterly unable
we are to meet God's standard by our
own means, strength or works.The law shows us our sinfulness as a contrast to God's holiness.

Jesus did not teach anything radically different from that of the Old Testament, He simplified the main points so that people could not escape into a pure exercise of religious ceremonies. The Old Testament describes many laws.He simplified the main points so that people could not escape into a pure exercise of religious ceremonies.
The Old Testament describes many laws
(both moral and ceremonial) that were to be followed by the people of God. With so many laws, people tended to become SELECTIVE, preferring to follow the easier ceremonial laws over the more difficult moral laws .

Jesus explained that the moral commandments were not to be followed merely to the letter of the law, but also to the intent of the law "thou shall not commit adultery . So, it was not enough to abstain from adultery, but God required that one not even look on a woman with lust (Matthew 5:27-28).

"thou shall not kill" Likewise, it is not enough to abstain from
murder, but God requires that nobody
hate another without cause, with calling
another person "a fool" making one
guilty enough to suffer the judgment of
Hell (Matthew 5:21-22). So God's laws
require not only perfect performance,
but also perfect attitude and motive.
Surah 58:22
You will not find any people of faith
in God and the Day of Judgment who
would establish friendship with those
who oppose God and His Messenger,
even if it would be in the interest of
their fathers, sons, brothers, and
kinsmen. God has established faith
in their hearts AND supported them
by a Spirit from Himself . S. 58:22
Sarwar

Allah establishes faith in the hearts of
believers AND STRENGTHENS THEM WITH
A SPIRIT FROM HIMSELF, clearly showing
that the Spirit here doesn’t refer to faith or angel Gabriel.

Confirmer:

so you are relying on the Quran now. You want me to school you on that? Despite the fact that Ismael was sent away, did he cease to be Abraham son? I quoted a verse earlier where he partook in Abraham's burial and he was referred to has Abraham son.
In the Quran as well, Isaac hasn't been born before Abraham was tried. It was after he passed the trial that Abraham was blessed further with a righteous son.

God did not recognized Abraham union to ishmael mother BUT God sanctions there sending away, why? Because Isaac was the son God PROMISE to Abraham, it was through this son he made a great Nation. Even the quran did not recognized ishmael on this, why?

malvisguy212:
God did not recognized Abraham union to ishmael mother BUT God sanctions there sending away, why? Because Isaac was the son God PROMISE to Abraham, it was through this son he made a great Nation. Even the quran did not recognized ishmael on this, why?

Please kindly give me an explicit verse in the bible where God didn't recognise Ishmael as Abraham's son or where God didn't sanction Abraham union with Hagar. In Genesis 16:15 Ishmael was explicit recognised as Abraham's son "And Hagar bare Abram a SON:and Abram called his SON's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael".
Kindly stay on the bible where you have some knowledge because Ismael is well recognised in the Quran along with Isiaq. We make no distinction between the prophets of Allah.

bashbabe2:
Like someone said dont you and your cohorts never get tired. Sincerely you are so jobless and i would implore people not to reply to your posts.

It's so funny reading through because it's hard to ignore some ridiculous things you write. Maybe you need to pray more to that holy spirit of yours to direct you and your cohorts to stop the insults.
Islam is perfect, Muslims are not, just like you christians.
Why is it so hard for you to get that Allah sent all Prophets at a particular time to particular tribes, race,and our Prophet (SAW) was sent to all mankind. You are just wasting your time opening new threads, sincere advice is for you stop.because the only people that get worked up from the insults in your
comments is you and your kind ( as your Bible stated" by thier words you shall know them".

Islam is beautiful and perfect I tell you.does your Bible ask you to refrain from arguments and insulting and judging ? If you see Muslims doing wrong today Islam didn't teach them that. Muslims that follows the teachings of Allah(SWT) and the best of mankind the prophet (SAW) are nothing but people you would emulate and wish to be like .
There are bad christians,terrorist christians so as Muslims. That doesn't mean you should continue with your false accusations and quoting the Qur’an out of context or giving it your own meaning . Just take a minute to reflect a religion that accepts all other books, all other Prophets and Qur'an sent to clarify things you lots( christian and jews) use to argue or differ, Yet you still don't believe.
From Allah we came and To HIM we shall all return, we all will account for every single thing we said or did.

Just quit because it's clear you are just trying to be relevant but the only people you impress are your kind. Blind leading the blind.
May Allah in His infinite mercy have mercy on us all. My Islam teaches me never to be angry, or insults, argue, judge and pray for those who say things i don't like,even reply them with kind words . What does your Bible teaches you?

actually the quran is a conjured, revised and edited version of the bible by mohammed. sadly mohammed did not cover his trail intelligently. you muslims are a confused bunch. your quran mixes people in the old testament with people in the new testament...go study about the family of jesus from your quran and compare it with what is in the bible. you guys are observers of time and bunch of enchanters. you can only pray to your true God from a particular direction, your fast is only during the day and not at night, you observe the shadows, the moon and the sun to determine your prayer hours, your allah only understands Arabic, how sad and pathetic! your religion seeks to dominate all others, no tolerance and no freewill even as God as given it to us from the beginning of time. actually i did not want to comment on this thread but this statement of yours made me.
come to ilorin or ogbomoso, your alfas and jobless enchantment priest cannot do a single sermon without provoking Christians. from holding crusades to speak blasphemy against Christianity, reading the bible scornfully and treating Christians with contempt. sometimes i ask myself if you guys got something else to preach apart from Jesus and Christianity but it dawned on me that the bible has said that every one must hear about Jesus, every one must hear about the gospel so that on the day of judgement, there will be no excuse. God has certainly being making use of your alfas, ustah and fanatics who will not tolerate others to spread his word. then i said to myself let God be praised! therefore these guys here on social media have not done 0.1% of what your leaders do in reality. don't complain,the social network here is the only means they got to say all these things concerning islam(you guys also say worse about Christianity in real life) without being beating to death or lynched by your wicked,inhumane and heartless brothers

mohammed is a confused,violent,possessed paedophile! DEAL WITH IT!

malvisguy212:
no, Jesus fullfiled the law in the old testament.

The law is a manifestation of the perfect
holiness of God, and was given to us
(humanity) to show how utterly unable
we are to meet God's standard by our
own means, strength or works.The law shows us our sinfulness as a contrast to God's holiness.

Jesus did not teach anything radically different from that of the Old Testament, He simplified the main points so that people could not escape into a pure exercise of religious ceremonies. The Old Testament describes many laws.He simplified the main points so that people could not escape into a pure exercise of religious ceremonies.
The Old Testament describes many laws
(both moral and ceremonial) that were to be followed by the people of God. With so many laws, people tended to become SELECTIVE, preferring to follow the easier ceremonial laws over the more difficult moral laws .

Jesus explained that the moral commandments were not to be followed merely to the letter of the law, but also to the intent of the law "thou shall not commit adultery . So, it was not enough to abstain from adultery, but God required that one not even look on a woman with lust (Matthew 5:27-28).

"thou shall not kill" Likewise, it is not enough to abstain from
murder, but God requires that nobody
hate another without cause, with calling
another person "a fool" making one
guilty enough to suffer the judgment of
Hell (Matthew 5:21-22). So God's laws
require not only perfect performance,
but also perfect attitude and motive.
Surah 58:22
You will not find any people of faith
in God and the Day of Judgment who
would establish friendship with those
who oppose God and His Messenger,
even if it would be in the interest of
their fathers, sons, brothers, and
kinsmen. God has established faith
in their hearts AND supported them
by a Spirit from Himself . S. 58:22
Sarwar

Allah establishes faith in the hearts of
believers AND STRENGTHENS THEM WITH
A SPIRIT FROM HIMSELF, clearly showing
that the Spirit here doesn’t refer to faith or angel Gabriel.

I don't want to get into a lengthy debate cos I'm too lazy to type long epistles. You said "Thou shalt not murder" (exodus 20:30) yet God sanctioned and commanded the killing of EVERY SINGLE CREATION FROM HUMANS AND ANIMALS (Deuteronomy 20:16) (Samuel 15:2-4). Let me even ask an innocent question, CAN A CHRISTIAN WORK ON SATURDAY OR NOT?
The Ruhu LiQudus (Holy Spirit/ Gabriel) was not exclusive to Jesus but he helped other prophets of Allah.

klbakare:


actually the quran is a conjured, revised and edited version of the bible by mohammed. sadly mohammed did not cover his trail intelligently. you muslims are a confused bunch. your quran mixes people in the old testament with people in the new testament...go study about the family of jesus from your quran and compare it with what is in the bible. you guys are observers of time and bunch of enchanters. you can only pray to your true God from a particular direction, your fast is only during the day and not at night, you observe the shadows, the moon and the sun to determine your prayer hours, your allah only understands Arabic, how sad and pathetic! your religion seeks to dominate all others, no tolerance and no freewill even as God as given it to us from the beginning of time. actually i did not want to comment on this thread but this statement of yours made me.
come to ilorin or ogbomoso, your alfas and jobless enchantment priest cannot do a single sermon without provoking Christians. from holding crusades to speak blasphemy against Christianity, reading the bible scornfully and treating Christians with contempt. sometimes i ask myself if you guys got something else to preach apart from Jesus and Christianity but it dawned on me that the bible has said that every one must hear about Jesus, every one must hear about the gospel so that on the day of judgement, there will be no excuse. God has certainly being making use of your alfas, ustah and fanatics who will not tolerate others to spread his word. then i said to myself let God be praised! therefore these guys here on social media have not done 0.1% of what your leaders do in reality. don't complain,the social network here is the only means they got to say all these things concerning islam(you guys also say worse about Christianity in real life) without being beating to death or lynched by your wicked,inhumane and heartless brothers

mohammed is a confused,violent,possessed paedophile! DEAL WITH IT!

A fire is burning inside you. Peace be upon Jesus and Muhammed. We hold them both in high regard. Thanks.

Confirmer:

All these circumstantial evidence you are trying to conjure shouldn't supersede a crystal clear evidence that Ishmael is Abraham first child and should have the status of THINE ONLY CHILD. The test was if he would be willing to sacrifice his only son. The test would be defeated if he had another son somewhere. Mind you God wasn't testing Sarah but Abraham so don't involve her. I seriously don't know how you put up your defence to this explicit fact.

Just as you can not prove that Isaac was not yet born at that time. Besides, Abraham {through the birth of Ishmael) knew he was not the one with the problem of infertility (in fact he had other kids after sarah's death) hence the real test was that God was asking him to sacrifice the child of promise through whom God's promises were to be fulfilled, it being clear that there would not be another from Sarah!

Confirmer:

Please kindly give me an explicit verse in the bible where God didn't recognise Ishmael as Abraham's son or where God didn't sanction Abraham union with Hagar. In Genesis 16:15 Ishmael was explicit recognised as Abraham's son "And Hagar bare Abram a SON:and Abram called his SON's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael".
Kindly stay on the bible where you have some knowledge because Ismael is well recognised in the Quran along with Isiaq. We make no distinction between the prophets of Allah.

Sorry the question was not directed at me. Hagar was and remained Sarah's maid But see:

Genesis 21:12

12 God said to Abraham, Do not let it seem grievous and evil to you because of the youth and your bondwoman; in all that Sarah has said to you, do what she asks, for in Isaac shall your posterity be called.

Hagar was at no time upgraded to a wife. In fact, after Ishmael was born, Abraham, Hagar and the Angel said respectively:

Genesis 16:6,9

6 But Abram said to Sarai, See here, your maid is in your hands and power; do as you please with her. And when Sarai dealt severely with her, humbling and afflicting her, she [Hagar] fled from her.
7 But [a]the Angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness on the road to Shur.
8 And He said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where did you come from, and where are you intending to go? And she said, I am running away from my mistress Sarai.
9 The Angel of the Lord said to her, Go back to your mistress and [humbly] submit to her control.

klbakare:


actually the quran is a conjured, revised and edited version of the bible by mohammed. sadly mohammed did not cover his trail intelligently. you muslims are a confused bunch. your quran mixes people in the old testament with people in the new testament...go study about the family of jesus from your quran and compare it with what is in the bible. you guys are observers of time and bunch of enchanters. you can only pray to your true God from a particular direction, your fast is only during the day and not at night, you observe the shadows, the moon and the sun to determine your prayer hours, your allah only understands Arabic, how sad and pathetic! your religion seeks to dominate all others, no tolerance and no freewill even as God as given it to us from the beginning of time. actually i did not want to comment on this thread but this statement of yours made me.
come to ilorin or ogbomoso, your alfas and jobless enchantment priest cannot do a single sermon without provoking Christians. from holding crusades to speak blasphemy against Christianity, reading the bible scornfully and treating Christians with contempt. sometimes i ask myself if you guys got something else to preach apart from Jesus and Christianity but it dawned on me that the bible has said that every one must hear about Jesus, every one must hear about the gospel so that on the day of judgement, there will be no excuse. God has certainly being making use of your alfas, ustah and fanatics who will not tolerate others to spread his word. then i said to myself let God be praised! therefore these guys here on social media have not done 0.1% of what your leaders do in reality. don't complain,the social network here is the only means they got to say all these things concerning islam(you guys also say worse about Christianity in real life) without being beating to death or lynched by your wicked,inhumane and heartless brothers

mohammed is a confused,violent,possessed paedophile! DEAL WITH IT!

Before I proceed.
Are you a Christian?
Do you believe in Your bible?
Do you believe in both the old and the new testament?
Do you believe that God as perfect as he is would say something in the past and then change it later that the earlier was not OK?
Answer me before I proceed
Thanks.

Confirmer:

I don't want to get into a lengthy debate cos I'm too lazy to type long epistles. You said "Thou shalt not murder" (exodus 20:30) yet God sanctioned and commanded the killing of EVERY SINGLE CREATION FROM HUMANS AND ANIMALS (Deuteronomy 20:16) (Samuel 15:2-4). Let me even ask an innocent question, CAN A CHRISTIAN WORK ON SATURDAY OR NOT?
The Ruhu LiQudus (Holy Spirit/ Gabriel) was not exclusive to Jesus but he helped other prophets of Allah.

you keep on bringing different topics, from abrogation to killing, if you want to debate, stay on one point. If you want to talk about killing in the bible, then you must qoute from the beginning, what lead to the killing. The we can proceeds.

Confirmer:

Please kindly give me an explicit verse in the bible where God didn't recognise Ishmael as Abraham's son or where God didn't sanction Abraham union with Hagar. In Genesis 16:15 Ishmael was explicit recognised as Abraham's son "And Hagar bare Abram a SON:and Abram called his SON's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael".
Kindly stay on the bible where you have some knowledge because Ismael is well recognised in the Quran along with Isiaq. We make no distinction between the prophets of Allah.

when I say God did not recognized ishmael, I was referring to the blood line of the messiah(the prophetic race) God don't recognized ishmael there, it all about Isaac that lead to a type of christ.

Cain is the firstborn, of the two Abel is
last. But Abel's offering is accepted and
Cain's is rejected. Ishmael is the firstborn, of the two Isaac is last. But Ishmael is rejected as the Messiah's lineage and Isaac is accepted. Esau is the firstborn, Jacob is last. But Esau is rejected and Jacob is accepted. And there are more ... like David ... the
youngest son rejected by his brothers
and father but who ended up in the
Messiah's bloodline etc.

Isaac is the only son of the promise, the
covenant. He's the only son born from
the faith in the promise that God gave
Abraham. He's the only son who could
receive his birthright. Ishmael was what happened when Sarah and Abraham decided that God wasn't making good on His promise quickly enough and they decided to speed things up a bit.

Confirmer:

Please kindly give me an explicit verse in the bible where God didn't recognise Ishmael as Abraham's son or where God didn't sanction Abraham union with Hagar. In Genesis 16:15 Ishmael was explicit recognised as Abraham's son "And Hagar bare Abram a SON:and Abram called his SON's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael".
Kindly stay on the bible where you have some knowledge because Ismael is well recognised in the Quran along with Isiaq. We make no distinction between the prophets of Allah.

Confirmer you seem to want to obscure things. It looks like a common tactic of muslims on NL.

If you use either the Bible record which predates the Quran or that of the Quran itself it is clear that the person emphasized as the promised son is Isaac.

Like I stated:
Isaac was conceived MIRACULOUSLY to Sarah who had well passed her child bearing age and a very aged Abraham. The Quran agrees with this.

Ishmael on the other hand was conceived NORMALLY without any miraculous intervention.

If any of these conceptions is to be seen as UNIQUE obviously the common sense reasoning will pick that of Isaac, not Ishmael. The child of promise had to be the one who came MIRACULOUSLY.

Btw, Ishmael eventually left Abraham and Isaac remained. Does this indicate something?

What Scholar8200 said in his post is also very instructive – in the Bible, references to Hagar CLEARLY shows that her relationship to Abraham was not regarded on the same level as that of Sarah his recognized wife. The same applies to her (Hagar’s) son. This rules out your using the Bible to justify your position. The next option – the Quran – is your best port of call. Unfortunately here too all indications point to Isaac rather than Ishmael as the promised son.

Confirmer:

A fire is burning inside you. Peace be upon Jesus and Muhammed. We hold them both in high regard. Thanks.

peace be upon you too. tell your clergy to desist from making mockery of other people's beliefs when they can't take half of it without resulting to violence. trouble makers!

mubarakopeyemi:


Before I proceed.
Are you a Christian?
Do you believe in Your bible?
Do you believe in both the old and the new testament?
Do you believe that God as perfect as he is would say something in the past and then change it later that the earlier was not OK?
Answer me before I proceed
Thanks.

before i proceed.
Are you a Muslim?
Do you believe in your quran?
Do you believe in your hadiths and the likes?
Do you believe allah is a peaceful god, will he send a dictator upon the earth to enforce his will,that the earlier was not OK?
Answer me before i proceed.
Thanks.

N.B; must you know my religion and response to your irrelevant questions before you prove a point?

klbakare:


before i proceed.
Are you a Muslim?
Do you believe in your quran?
Do you believe in your hadiths and the likes?
Do you believe allah is a peaceful god, will he send a dictator upon the earth to enforce his will,that the earlier was not OK?
Answer me before i proceed.
Thanks.

N.B; must you know my religion and response to your irrelevant questions before you prove a point?

still those deranged delusional disbelievers.
You worth not my time.
Swerve pls
Your response defines you.
Boy!

mubarakopeyemi:


still those deranged delusional disbelievers.
You worth not my time.
Swerve pls
Your response defines you.
Boy!

u just dey realize,mr adult? I am worth the time of more reasonable people. Bunch of intolerant trouble makers!

malvisguy212:
you keep on bringing different topics, from abrogation to killing, if you want to debate, stay on one point. If you want to talk about killing in the bible, then you must qoute from the beginning, what lead to the killing. The we can proceeds.

sorry for replying this late but the debate was becoming redundant. You said Jesus didn't come to abrogate the law of Moses but to enforce it. And to confirm that I'm asking you "Do Christians work on Saturday (sabbath)?'

Scholar8200:

Sorry the question was not directed at me. Hagar was and remained Sarah's maid But see:

Genesis 21:12

12 God said to Abraham, Do not let it seem grievous and evil to you because of the youth and your bondwoman; in all that Sarah has said to you, do what she asks, for in Isaac shall your posterity be called.

Hagar was at no time upgraded to a wife. In fact, after Ishmael was born, Abraham, Hagar and the Angel said respectively:

Genesis 16:6,9

6 But Abram said to Sarai, See here, your maid is in your hands and power; do as you please with her. And when Sarai dealt severely with her, humbling and afflicting her, she [Hagar] fled from her.
7 But [a]the Angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness on the road to Shur.
8 And He said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where did you come from, and where are you intending to go? And she said, I am running away from my mistress Sarai.
9 The Angel of the Lord said to her, Go back to your mistress and [humbly] submit to her control.

sorry for replying late was a little busy. You said Hagar wasn't Abraham's wife but the bible said otherwise in Genesis 16:3 Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her slave-girl, and gave her to her husband Abram as his WIFE
The only explanation that you can give to proof your point is either that Isaac is the first son or that Ishmael is not actually Abraham's son. The biblical verse didn't say the PROMISED CHILD but THINE ONLY CHILD.
When did Ishmael ceased to be Abraham's son?
Did he later become his son after his death cos in Genesis 25:9 he was referred to as Abraham's son when he and Isaac buried Abraham.

plainbibletruth:


Confirmer you seem to want to obscure things. It looks like a common tactic of muslims on NL.

If you use either the Bible record which predates the Quran or that of the Quran itself it is clear that the person emphasized as the promised son is Isaac.

Like I stated:
Isaac was conceived MIRACULOUSLY to Sarah who had well passed her child bearing age and a very aged Abraham. The Quran agrees with this.

Ishmael on the other hand was conceived NORMALLY without any miraculous intervention.

If any of these conceptions is to be seen as UNIQUE obviously the common sense reasoning will pick that of Isaac, not Ishmael. The child of promise had to be the one who came MIRACULOUSLY.

Btw, Ishmael eventually left Abraham and Isaac remained. Does this indicate something?

What Scholar8200 said in his post is also very instructive – in the Bible, references to Hagar CLEARLY shows that her relationship to Abraham was not regarded on the same level as that of Sarah his recognized wife. The same applies to her (Hagar’s) son. This rules out your using the Bible to justify your position. The next option – the Quran – is your best port of call. Unfortunately here too all indications point to Isaac rather than Ishmael as the promised son.

Bro sorry but I have a life outside Nairaland and it seems you are giving a blind eyes to the indisputable evidence I have given you. I want you to answer these questions objectively; who was being tried by God, Abraham or Sarah? Who passed the test Adam or Sarah?
I have answered the answer whether Hagar upgraded to Abraham's wife or not in a post just above this. You didn't bother quoting any bible verse in your argument but relied on your reasoning and logic above the biblical verses.
According to the Quran, it was much later after he passed the test that he was blessed with Isaac Quran 37:100-113

Confirmer:

Bro sorry but I have a life outside Nairaland and it seems you are giving a blind eyes to the indisputable evidence I have given you. I want you to answer these questions objectively; who was being tried by God, Abraham or Sarah? Who passed the test Adam or Sarah?
I have answered the answer whether Hagar upgraded to Abraham's wife or not in a post just above this. You didn't bother quoting any bible verse in your argument but relied on your reasoning and logic above the biblical verses.
According to the Quran, it was much later after he passed the test that he was blessed with Isaac Quran 37:100-113

I don’t know what your life outside NL has to do with a simple observation.

You use the word ‘logic’ a number of times in your posts. Yet instead of LOGICALLY presenting your positions you end up obscuring issues by moving from one thing to another instead of FOCUSING on the particular matter on hand.

Confirmer, if you want to use the biblical account to support your position then you must be ready to accept and use every part of it.

First, notice that it was Sarah that gave her maid to Abraham. Now, after this how was Hagar referred to? Look at what God said in Genesis 17: 19 –
“ Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.”
God NEVER referred to Hagar as Abraham’s wife.

Again using the portion you quoted did Hagar refer to Sarah as her co-wife or mistress? Is that instructive?
“So Sarai, Abram’s wife, took her Egyptian maid Hagar and gave her to her husband Abram as a wife. Abram had been living ten years in Canaan when this took place. He slept with Hagar and she got pregnant. When Hagar learned she was pregnant, she looked down on her mistress.”

Look at the following:
Genesis 21: 9-10 “But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, and she said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.”
Genesis 21: 11-13 “The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”
NOTICE the words Sarah and God used – ‘whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham’, ‘that slave woman’, ‘your slave woman’

So if you must use the Bible then the honest thing to do is to accept the position it has presented.

Someone has pointed out to you that being the FIRST son does not necessarily confer any special status on the individual; at least not in the Bible – the story of Esau and Jacob is there for you to see and numerous others. (Btw, it would be good to see how the Quran treated Esau/Jacob issue in relation to who is first or second). No one is saying here that Ishmael is not Abraham’s son. The issue is: who has been given a position of privilege?

The Bible position here is “it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”
Take it or leave it.

There is nothing in that portion of the Quran you quoted that says "it was much later after he passed the test that he was blessed with Isaac". Nothing! You are relying on your reasoning and logic here.

The truth is this: the Bible and the Quran specifically name Isaac; on the other hand it is Muslim scholars who INFER the name of Ishmael as the intended son.

Even the oldest Islamic tradition claim that the son intended for sacrifice was Isaac. It was much later, when the figure of Ishmael was more firmly established as the forebearer of a number of the Arab people, that Isaac, as the intended sacrifice, was jettisoned for Ishmael.

Confirmer:

sorry for replying late was a little busy. You said Hagar wasn't Abraham's wife but the bible said otherwise in Genesis 16:3 Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her slave-girl, and gave her to her husband Abram as his WIFE
The only explanation that you can give to proof your point is either that Isaac is the first son or that Ishmael is not actually Abraham's son. The biblical verse didn't say the PROMISED CHILD but THINE ONLY CHILD.
When did Ishmael ceased to be Abraham's son?
Did he later become his son after his death cos in Genesis 25:9 he was referred to as Abraham's son when he and Isaac buried Abraham.

Sarah's action does not mean God/Abraham ratified it so! What was even the intent of Sarah:

Genesis 16:2

2 And Sarai said to Abram, See here, the Lord has restrained me from bearing [children]. I am asking you to have intercourse with my maid; it may be that I can obtain children by her. And Abram listened to and heeded what Sarai said.

This matter needs not be long drawn that God said plainly,@ in Isaac shall thy seed be called" lays this matter to rest

plainbibletruth:



I don’t know what your life outside NL has to do with a simple observation.

You use the word ‘logic’ a number of times in your posts. Yet instead of LOGICALLY presenting your positions you end up obscuring issues by moving from one thing to another instead of FOCUSING on the particular matter on hand.

Confirmer, if you want to use the biblical account to support your position then you must be ready to accept and use every part of it.

First, notice that it was Sarah that gave her maid to Abraham. Now, after this how was Hagar referred to? Look at what God said in Genesis 17: 19 –
“ Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.”
God NEVER referred to Hagar as Abraham’s wife.

Again using the portion you quoted did Hagar refer to Sarah as her co-wife or mistress? Is that instructive?
“So Sarai, Abram’s wife, took her Egyptian maid Hagar and gave her to her husband Abram as a wife. Abram had been living ten years in Canaan when this took place. He slept with Hagar and she got pregnant. When Hagar learned she was pregnant, she looked down on her mistress.”

Look at the following:
Genesis 21: 9-10 “But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, and she said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.”
Genesis 21: 11-13 “The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”
NOTICE the words Sarah and God used – ‘whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham’, ‘that slave woman’, ‘your slave woman’

So if you must use the Bible then the honest thing to do is to accept the position it has presented.

Someone has pointed out to you that being the FIRST son does not necessarily confer any special status on the individual; at least not in the Bible – the story of Esau and Jacob is there for you to see and numerous others. (Btw, it would be good to see how the Quran treated Esau/Jacob issue in relation to who is first or second). No one is saying here that Ishmael is not Abraham’s son. The issue is: who has been given a position of privilege?

The Bible position here is “it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”
Take it or leave it.

There is nothing in that portion of the Quran you quoted that says "it was much later after he passed the test that he was blessed with Isaac". Nothing! You are relying on your reasoning and logic here.

The truth is this: the Bible and the Quran specifically name Isaac; on the other hand it is Muslim scholars who INFER the name of Ishmael as the intended son.

Even the oldest Islamic tradition claim that the son intended for sacrifice was Isaac. It was much later, when the figure of Ishmael was more firmly established as the forebearer of a number of the Arab people, that Isaac, as the intended sacrifice, was jettisoned for Ishmael.

The very first act of Sarah was to give HAGAR to her HUSBAND, Abraham, as a WIFE and not as a maid or Mistress. Sarah later became Jealous and envious of Hagar because of her pregnancy according to the bible verse you quoted. I am no bible scholar but let me quote a bible scholar (i dont wanna post a lengthy argument) on this issue:
"Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament
Verses 3, 4
And Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her handmaid, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to Abram her husband to be his wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.

Sarai and Abram had not counted on such a development as this. They had their weaknesses, but Hagar also had hers. Hagar was then Abram's wife, and although she was not on an equality with Sarai, being in fact her slave, she nevertheless despised her mistress. Thinking that, then, her child would be heir to Abram's fortune, her essential temperament as a slave did not lead her to accept her status and treat Sarai with proper respect. Thus, the tragedy of the arrangement was soon evident. It was impossible for Hagar to be sent away by Sarai, for the laws of that period granted certain rights to slave wives, and Hagar could neither have been sold nor dismissed. The device had appeared to work. Sure enough, Hagar would soon be a mother, but the jealousies and hatreds that entered Abram's household at that point must have been a sore trial for the whole family. Such is ever the result of sin. As Leupold expressed it, "Polygamy is always bound to be the fruitful mother of envy, jealousy, and strife.

A number of authors refer to the Code of Hammurabi in connection with this episode. It "warns expressly, that a slave girl elevated by her mistress should not and could not claim equality.

To be his wife?
The Hebrew word rendered wife is the same word also rendered concubine. However, there was a difference, and Hagar certainly enjoyed the status of Abram's wife, however subordinate to Sarai. It was a situation certain to produce friction, hatred, and tragedy."

Let me now quote the Quran verse I referred you to:
"O my Lord! grant me a righteous (son)!" So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear. Then when (the son) reached (the age of) serious work with him he said: "O my son! I see in a vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! do as thou art commanded: thou will find me if Allah so wills, one practicing Patience and Constancy!" So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah) and He had laid Him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice). Qur'an 37:100/103.

The good news for the birth of Isaac - a righteous prophet - comes much later. Hence, "they had both submitted" in the above verse refers to Abraham and his eldest Son Ishmael. The narration continues:

"We called out to him "O Abraham! Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" Thus indeed do We reward those who do right. For this was obviously a trial. And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice: and We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times: "Peace and salutation to Abraham!" Thus indeed do We reward those who do right." Qur'an 37:104/110.

Continuing the history of Abraham, the Qur'an reveals:

"For he was one of Our believing Servants. And We gave him the good news of Isaac, a prophet, one of the Righteous. We blessed him and Isaac: but of their progeny are (some) that do right and (some) that obviously do wrong to their own souls." Qur'an 37:111/113.

My argument is actually not that Isaac is not the promised seed but that who was offered for sacrifice. Isaac was actually the promised seed because so many prophets came from his lineage but Ismael was also blessed with a Nation and a prophet because of the Prayer of Abraham.

Scholar8200:


Sarah's action does not mean God/Abraham ratified it so! What was even the intent of Sarah:

Genesis 16:2

2 And Sarai said to Abram, See here, the Lord has restrained me from bearing [children]. I am asking you to have intercourse with my maid; it may be that I can obtain children by her. And Abram listened to and heeded what Sarai said.

This matter needs not be long drawn that God said plainly,@ in Isaac shall thy seed be called" lays this matter to rest

see my reply to plainbible

klbakare:


u just dey realize,mr adult? I am worth the time of more reasonable people. Bunch of intolerant trouble makers!

don't mind him bro, he ask questions as if he is ready for debate, but when he got reply, he gave a lame excuse.

Confirmer:

see my reply to plainbible

God approved of Abraham married to Sarah. But that of Abraham and hagger was like when someone loose patience to God and he seek his own idea.(remember God had promised Abraham a son "Isaac" so when Sarah loose patience with God, she comes up with here own idea.

malvisguy212:
God approved of Abraham married to Sarah. But that of Abraham and hagger was like when someone loose patience to God and he seek his own idea.(remember God had promised Abraham a son "Isaac" so when Sarah loose patience with God, she comes up with here own idea.

May God forgive you for insinuating that Sarah, and by extension Prophet Abraham, lost patience. Why would they lose patience if they were sure of God's promise since God never fails? It was simply because they have not received the revelation from God about the birth of Isaac. It was after the test that they were promised Isaac.

Confirmer:

May God forgive you for insinuating that Sarah, and by extension Prophet Abraham, lost patience. Why would they lose patience if they were sure of God's promise since God never fails? It was simply because they have not received the revelation from God about the birth of Isaac. It was after the test that they were promised Isaac.

Abraham a prophet? Hmmm.

Abraham abide by the promised made by God, it was Sarah who convinced him to take hagger as his wife.God had NO hand in hagger engaged to Abraham.

malvisguy212:
Abraham a prophet? Hmmm.

Abraham abide by the promised made by God, it was Sarah who convinced him to take hagger as his wife.God had NO hand in hagger engaged to Abraham.

Was Abraham not a prophet? Sarah convinced Abraham to take Hagar as WIFE right, who convinced Abraham to take Sarah as wife? Was it God? You failed woefully to address my reply to plainbible but you are here giving your postulations against a clear verse in the bible.

Confirmer:

Was Abraham not a prophet? Sarah convinced Abraham to take Hagar as WIFE right, who convinced Abraham to take Sarah as wife? Was it God? You failed woefully to address my reply to plainbible but you are here giving your postulations against a clear verse in the bible.

bible never mention Abraham as a prophet. Abraham married Sarah and God promised them a child, but Sarah notice they are growing older and she convinced Abraham to take hagger as his wife.is this hard for you to understand?

Galatians 4:28:30
28And you brethren, like Isaac, are
children of promise. 29But as at that
time he who was born according to the
flesh persecuted him who was born
according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

malvisguy212:
bible never mention Abraham as a prophet. Abraham married Sarah and God promised them a child, but Sarah notice they are growing older and she convinced Abraham to take hagger as his wife.is this hard for you to understand?

Galatians 4:28:30
28And you brethren, like Isaac, are
children of promise. 29But as at that
time he who was born according to the
flesh persecuted him who was born
according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

Who convinced Abraham to marry Sarah? was it God or who?