why then did the high priests arrest Jesus and bring Him to Pilate? why didnt they just take Him and kill Him themselves?

That is simply NOT true. Peter was also crucified for blasphemy

davidylan:

why then did the high priests arrest Jesus and bring Him to Pilate? why didnt they just take Him and kill Him themselves?

davidylan:

That is simply NOT true. Peter was also crucified for blasphemy, others were beheaded, marooned on islands or boiled in hot oil.

Examples. Surprising that many of them including the most popular at that time - john the baptist, escaped being killed for so long?

No.

Bastage:

You tell me. It's one of those little contradictions in the Bible that you so often like to overlook.

Bastage:

Hmmm. Where in the Bible is this?

Very misleading. According to Tertullian, Peter was crucified in Rome when Nero was persecuting Christians and blaming and executing them for the fire that had swept through Rome three months prior. Even if he were executed for blasphemy it wouldn't have been for blasphemy against the Jewish god but against the Roman deities. A totally different scenario from the one you are trying to claim.

huxley:

Yet again you accept christian tradition uncritically. I thought Christian tradition says Peter died in Rome, at the hands of the Romans. If Peter was crucified for blasphemywhile in Rome, then he could not have been blaspheming againgst the Jewish religion, could he?

If Peter was crucified for blasphemywhile in Rome, then he could not have been blaspheming againgst the Jewish religion, could he?

Good point. Of course not . . .

Bastage:

Hey you plagiarists!!! That's what I said!!!

Bastage:

Hey you plagiarists!!! That's what I said!!!

davidylan:

Simple. Because the Jews did not have the power to carry out punishments on offenders. Barabas the robber was a prisoner of Rome.

huxley:

There are two problems with this charge of blasphemy.  A charge of blasphemy would have been the sole jurisdiction of the Jewish authorities and NOT the Romans.  Secondly, the penalty for blasphemy would have been stoning to death and NOT crucifixion.   This suggest that there must have been other issues beside blasphemy.

In Jesus time there would have been prophets by the hundreds all claiming to fulfil this and that prophecies.  Jesus would not have stood out as different and his "proof" of authenticity would not have been any more convincing than the next prophet.

Now, imagine you were one of the 12, say Peter.  And you had a casting vote.  Would you have voted for his exoneration or would you have convicted him?

However, there is enough evidence to suggest that blasphemy on Jesus' part was the brewing point of all the problems he had with the law.

Did you hear just last year, of the exchange between Hezbollah and Israel, where 2 dead Israeli soldiers were exchanged for the release of 5 Hezbollah soldiers

naijacutee:

I agree with you, huxley - That seeing that the Romans were involved, a charge of blasphemy couldn't have been the isolated reason for Jesus' crucifixion. However, there is enough evidence to suggest that blasphemy on Jesus' part was the brewing point of all the problems he had with the law, which eventually led to his arrest and crucifixion. His crucifixion which was one of the major reasons why he came in the first place.

Re: The prophets. Again, I am not an expert, but around Jesus time it seemed to me that not many prophets were in the business of fulfilling prophesies. Israel was notorious for its tradition of killing prophets, and the last of the "prophesying prophets" had been exterminated 400 years before the birth of Jesus. I think the figures of authority were now Rabbis, Pharisees and Saducees. Post/during the time of Jesus, two "prophetic" characters that stood out in my opinion were John the Baptist and Barrabas (who was after Jesus' time). John the Baptist had his own prophecies to fulfill, and they did not include being the "lamb of God who came to take away the sins of the world". He was just a " voice in the wilderness". The second Barrabas, was the socerer who practiced magic during the time of Paul. He performed signs and wonders, and had a large congregation. However, he wasn't claiming to fulfill any prophesies. He was, if you like, a Derren Brown of his day, who was making a living out of doing cool tricks.

So this is what differentiated Jesus from any other who may have claimed to be "him". He has a message, fulfilled prophesy, and performed miracles to demonstrate his supernatural qualities.

If I was one of Jesus' disciples at the time. . . . Hopefully, faithfulness and loyalty would have been as much of an expected human quality as it is today. I would hope that I would stand him, and wish for his exoneration. However, his crucifixion was a big part of Jesus' mission here on earth - and he made this clear to his disciples at the last supper. They all knew that he had anticipated, and even accepted his fate. Therefore, doing anything other than nothing would have only been a wrench in his plans.   


Also, forgive me if I'm wrong but back there, you mentioned something about Jews having no history/evidence of prisoner exchange. But we don't have to look very far to see that prisoner exchange is something that has been prevalent in the Middle East, even in recent times. Did you hear just last year, of the exchange between Hezbollah and Israel, where 2 dead Israeli soldiers were exchanged for the release of 5 Hezbollah soldiers (One of whom was a murderer). See : http://www.rightsidenews.com/200807211497/global-terrorism/the-eldad-regev-and-ehud-goldwasser-exchange.html

Bastage:

What evidence and what problems?

Bastage:



There is no evidence that he broke Roman law. Only evidence that he advocated abiding by it.

huxley:

Hello.   Very nice and constructive post, but a few caveates.

On the prisoner exchange, which is better described as prisoner clemency,  there is no evidence that this was a custom or routine practice in antiquity.  The gospel writers made this up to promote and agenda, namely, that the dead of Jesus was specifically called for by the Jews, thus demonising the entire Jewish people for hundreds of years.

naijacutee:

Luke 5

In the end, it all did facilitate the fulfillment of prophesy concerning the method of his crucifixion.

toneyb:

Which prophesy if i may ask? there is no such prophecy it does NOT exist any where. although alleged prophecies were quoted or referred to by new testament writers, bible scholars have been unable to find the original statement any where. An example is found in John 7:38 where Jesus said, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." If Jesus was right in saying that scripture said this, just where was it said? no such statement in the old testament scriptures has EVER been located, yet "the scripture" to Jesus would certainly have been the Old Testament(by old testament i mean the hebrew bible). How could there be a fulfilment of a prophecy that was never even made?


Jesus claimed another fulfilment of prophecy in Luke 24:46. Speaking to his disciples on the night of his alleged resurrection, he said, "Thus it is written and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day." That the resurrection of Christ on the third day was prophesied in the scriptures was claimed also by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4: "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures." Here we have it being written in two different places, the new testament writers claimed that the resurrection of the Messiah on the third day had been predicted in the scriptures. But the problem is that no matter how much they try christians cannot produce a single old testament passage that made this alleged third-day prediction. There is NO written jewish text(even the christian old testament does not say any such thing) that makes this prediction of jesus dying and raising from the dead on the third day. All the scriptures paul, jesus and the new testament writters were refering to is the old testament but the problem is that there is NO such thing any where in the old testament. It simply doesn't exist.

toneyb:

Which prophesy if i may ask? there is no such prophecy it does NOT exist any where.

KunleOshob:

The truth is that there were a lot of books considered as scripture in those days and used by the early christians that did not find there way into the canon of scripture(bible) compiled by the early catholic church for reasons best known to them. Although some of these books touted around at that time were not considered authentic eveidence abound that a lot of authentic books that did not fit into the idea of christianity the catholic church was trying to project were deliberately left out. In summary not all that was considered scripture at that time found it's way into the bible, hence the original prophecy might be in one of those omitted books.

If such books existed it will definitely be included in the bible but the fact is that non exist.

naijacutee:

Hi :-) It would be useful if your arguments are brought forward after reading the Bible, [s]and not after visiting dodgy, unverifiable websites.[/s] As Kunle Oshob rightly stated, not every prophetic text that was written BC made its way in what we call the Bible today. However, most did, and I'm sure the Bible contains sufficient material from which Jesus quoted.

naijacutee:

Hi :-)

OT Prophesy
Micah 5:1 Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod.
NT Fulillment
Mark 15:19 Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him.

OT Prophesy
[b]Psalm 22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.
NT Fulfillment
John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"  But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."[/b]

OT Prophesy
Psalm 22:17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.
Psalm 34:20 he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.  

 But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts.

Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly.

Psa 22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble [is] near; for [there is] none to help.

Psa 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round.

Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion.

Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.

Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Psa 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

OT Prophesy
Isaiah 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death ,
NT Fulfillment
matthew 27:57,59-60 [57] As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. [59] Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, [60] and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.

הט  וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו; עַל לֹא-חָמָס עָשָׂוְלֹא מִרְמָה בְּפִיו

9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'

י  וַיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ, הֶחֱלִי--אִם-תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ
, יִרְאֶה זֶרַעיַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים; וְחֵפֶץ יְהוָה, בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to [b]crush him by disease; [/b]to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand: .

Bastage:

Not true at all. There is tons of stuff that has been omitted either purposefully or because it may have been lost. And what about oral tradition? Not everything was written down.

Also, another avenue: what about ideas that may have been "borrowed" from other religions?

New Testament writers claimed that the resurrection of the Messiah on the third day had been predicted in the scriptures. the problem is which scriptures, there is no such scripture.

I Hold A Deep Grudge Against Yourself(huxley)

Bible called you a fool. Onye Nzuzu! and a foolish son and a lost child Angry Do you have mates? did you achieve half of what ur mates have achieve? Lord Jesus is not your Mate. Lord Jesus has children higher and humble. without you Lord Jesus still remain Whom He is. You will die and will be buriel - Your dust! Christ is ur creator and You will Perish if He design that for you.

Your not even up to his disciples here and there. Onye Nzuzu when will you have knowledge? Nwa Nza na chere chi ya ogu. Angry

Bastage:

Maybe not in scriptures of Christianity per se.
But the idea of a Messiah being crucified and resurrected long preceeded Christianity.

Just a few examples:

Tammuz of Mesopotamia 1160 BC.

Iao of Nepal 622 BC.

Hesus of the Celtic Druids 834 BC.

Quezalcoatl of Mexico 587 BC.

Quirinius of Rome 506 BC.

Prometheus 547 B.C.

Thulis of Egypt 1700 BC.

Indra of Tibet 725 BC.

Alcestos of Euripides 600 BC.

Attis of Phrygia 1170 BC.

Crite of Chaldaea 1200 BC.

Bali of Orissa 725 BC.

Mithras of Persia 600 BC.

And of course, lets not forget the Hindu, Krishna.

1) What were the crimes for which Jesus was arrested, tried, convicted and executed?

2) According to the Jewish laws (and/or Roman laws) then in force, was Jesus rightly convicted as per the evidence presented in the Gospels?

3) If you, as a follower of Jesus, had been at the trial, would you have joined the Jewish crowd in calling for his execution or would you have called for his exoneration?

Matt 27:11

11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
KJV

Matt 12:10-13

10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.
KJV

Matt 26:63-65

63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
KJV

Matt 26:61-62

61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
KJV

Matt 26:66

66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.KJV

Okija_juju:

I will start with question 1.

ANSWER

1. He was arrested for treson.

1. Breaking the law of Sabbath.


1. Blasphemy

1. Terrorism




ANSWER 2

2. Yes.

ANSWER 3.

Faced with the evidence of the prosecution?? He was guilty as charged. Although I would have sentenced him to life behind bars or a psychiatric ward.


MY OPINION


OKIJA_JUJU^TM

Matt 27:15-26

15 Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would.

16 And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.

17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?

18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

21 The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.

22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had [size=14pt]scourged[/size] Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
KJV

scourge [skurj]
noun (plural scourg·es)
1. tormentor: somebody or something that is perceived as an agent of punishment, destruction, or severe criticism
the scourge of my childhood

2. whip: a whip that is used for inflicting punishment


transitive verb (past and past participle scourged, present participle scourg·ing, 3rd person present singular scourg·es)
1. punish somebody: to punish or criticize somebody severely
2. whip somebody: to whip somebody severely

Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

toneyb:

Your arguments would have made sense if you read what was written in the old testament in context instead of copying and pasting non prophecies that your fellow christian apologist throw around. Most of the drivel you copy and pasted have nothing to do with jesus, they are either mistranslations or where deliberately made up bu christian apologist.

toneyb:

What has these got to do with jesus? was jesus israel's ruler? where did you get this nonsense from?

naijacutee:


Re: Alleged Hebrew text mis-translation.


I do not wish to go down this route with you, toneyb. However, my reluctance to engage you in the issue of prophesy doesn't stem from incompetence on my part.

New testament 

Matthew 27:

30[b] They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31 After they had mocked him[/b], they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.
32 As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. 33 They came to a place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull). 34 There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 36 And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37 Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 38 Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!"

41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 "He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.' " 44 In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

45 From the sixth hour* until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah.

48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Old testament       

Isaiah 50:
6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.[/b]Amos 2:
11 I also raised up prophets from among your sons and Nazirites from among your young men. Is this not true, people of Israel?' declares the LORD. 12 [b]'But you made the Nazirites drink wine and commanded the prophets not to prophesy.

Psalm 22:
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?[/b]Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
,
7 All who see me mock me;
[b]they hurl insults, shaking their heads
8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
,
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

Psalm 69:
Insults have broken my heart, so that I am in despair. I looked for pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me poison for food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
Amos 8:
8 "Will not the land tremble for this, and all who live in it mourn? ,  9 "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD, "I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.[/b]Ezekiel 37:
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: [b]'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' "   

You know, I have learnt a long time ago that christian skeptics will always abound in skepticism regardless of what facts are placed before them, hence I do not wish to take on the task of changing anyones' views - It is not in my place to do so. These arguments are far from constructive and nearly always disintegrate into insults, abuses and disrespect of people's faith (In other words, blasphemy - Just search the Religion section of NL for similar topics).  Far from it, I do look outside the world of Google and into the world of books and lectures for my references . The fact that many of us christians do not engage in apologetic research and matters relating to defending the faith does not mean that we are blind or stupid as you may have presumed. I have seen that matters of faith cannot usually be resolved by reason of human intellect and scientific experiments (even in the abundance of evidence to back related claims), and I will henceforth not engage you in your weak[b] "Hebrew translation concerns" on over 400 separate prophesies, spanning over hundreds of years which were fulfilled in the life of one unique person[/b].

I have seen that matters of faith cannot usually be resolved by reason of human intellect and scientific experiments (even in the abundance of evidence to back related claims),