Scholar8200:



I believe the prodigal son illustrates it better! A prodigal world is dead as long as it is severed from the Father and the only hope is to humble itself and, believing in the Father's mercy, take the only Way (Jesus is the Way) back to the Father! And when he gets to the Father's house, he doesnt remain in tattered clothes of sin; he exchanges the old for the new and that newness is visible to all! At that point, the thought of returning to the riotous life in the far country becomes repulsive even to him!!! That is Grace. But if he, on the day he was welcomed home begins to think," I can always return to the far country; the Father will always accept me back!" We will agree that something

Indeed! May I remind you that this was a parable to illustrate , "love thy neighbour as thyself" hence there is a limit to which we can eke out Divine-human relationship principles!

Remember that mankind was "... ... dead in the trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1) when God "... ... being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-(verses 4-5). 

So don't think that grace cannot be extended to a person in a situation like that of the Good Samaritan. 

Grace is all over the Scripture. Jesus' treatment of the woman caught in adultery is best described as what?
GRACE!

The emphasis in grace is on the giver. Not the recipient. 

On the parable of the  Prodigal Son, I want to believe you see it as a parable that teaches about grace. But then, grace in what area? Grace in salvation or grace in RELATIONSHIP?

This 'certain man' had two sons. So they were ALREADY his sons. They had a family relationship with the man. When the story ends the same relationship was still there - a father and his two sons. 

Both had charted different paths. Was one 'better' than the other? Was the one who lived in self- indulgence 'worse' than the one who questioned his father's wisdom in decision? Was his questioning of his father's wisdom not an affront against the father?  Was that not a display of self-righteous arrogance? Who owned the things - himself or the father? 

The story shows how every believer has fellowship with God but can get out of that fellowship. The prodigal son became carnal. He suffered for his carnality. While suffering he was still a son of the 'certain man'. That family status did not change. 

He later realized he had made a mistake and decided to make a U-turn and return to his father. His father disregarded every thing he had done, accepted his U-turn and restored him to fellowship. It wasn't that "he exchanges the old for the new and that newness is visible to all! ". He did not DO it by himself. It was the father who in GRACE provided him the newness. 

The father's eagerness to receive and forgive his son speaks about his integrity. His actions towards his son (indeed sons, including the older) shows grace!

They did not deserve what the father did. The father NEVER stopped loving them. That is grace!

Whether in salvation or in the Christian life, grace is always  "A favor done without expectation of return; absolute freeness of the lovingkindness of God to men finding its only motive in the bounty and free heartedness of the Giver; unearned and unmerited favor"

vooks:

Thank you trustman.
Briefly explain to me your understanding of Election and I will drive the point home

Election occurs (from our point of view as humans) at regeneration. From God's side it was a sovereign decision He made in eternity past ("before the foundation of the world". 

Election is God specifically setting apart for honor those who choose to believe in Christ.

vooks:
If God freely offers a gift (salvation) to ALL men but denies most the ability (faith) to receive this gift, the offer is not genuine, and it was never available for all.

You have to ask Christ how genuine His offer is, in the light of the following verses:

25 ¶ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Matt. 11

6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me ; for they are thine.

John 17

The doctrine of perseverance which is derived from the idea of individual election, is incompatible with a belief in availability of salvation for ALL

You have to tell us why everyone doesn't get saved.

trustman:


Election occurs (from our point of view as humans) at regeneration. From God's side it was a sovereign decision He made in eternity past ("before the foundation of the world".

Excellent!

Election is God specifically setting apart for honor those who choose to believe in Christ. 

In harmony with the rest of your posts this should have read , ''Election is God specifically setting apart for honor those who choose to believe in Christ'' or ''Election is God specifically setting apart for honor those who choose to believe in Christ in time'' .
Trust Vooks to take you up on that!

5solas:
Excellent!


In harmony with the rest of your posts this should have read , ''Election is God specifically setting apart for honor those who choose to believe in Christ'' or ''Election is God specifically setting apart for honor those who choose to believe in Christ in time'' .
Trust Vooks to take you up on that!

I agree with you.
I trust it's concise enough for Vooks.

trustman:

I agree with you.
I trust it's concise enough for Vooks.

Thanks.
True. Let's see how he handles it.

trustman:




A true understanding of grace should elicit a great appreciation of God, and awe and reverence for Him. Not the opposite. 

Also, the issue in a true understanding of grace is God's integrity, not ours. 

God gave Christ as a sin-offering to the world. 
Is there going to be a time when God will say something like  'I'm tired of mankind. I'm withdrawing my gift'?

If God did so much for the man when he was 'dead' will He do any less for the believer in Christ?

Our focus therefore should be on God's viewpoint. Grace is ALL about what God did. Man only responds to it and contributes nothing to it. 

Can man 'unrespond' to his initial response to salvation and then become 'unsaved'?

Some pertinent questions:
1. When a person becomes 'born again' does anything happen to him to change his spiritual status?
2. Is that change in status 'real' ?
3. If real, is that change temporary or permanent ?
4. When a Christian sins does his initial spiritual status change? If yes, to what? Can he be restored?
5. Can a person be saved more than once? So if anything can make a believer 'unsaved' (since it is the unsaved that will end up in hell) doesn't he have to be 'saved' again to be right with God?
6. What is the equation of salvation - faith alone in Christ alone or faith in Christ plus some additional things ( living a sin-free life or not renouncing Christ)? In other words does man add to Christ's work to make it complete or effectual?

If man can do anything to add to God's work in saving him then salvation is not a GIFT of grace; it is not 'unearned' or 'unmerited favour' and not dependent on the bounty and free heartedness of God. If man can do anything to add to or complete his salvation then it's not a FAVOUR! It's payment (at least in part) for the 'work' he did. He earned it in part. Therefore the glory belongs to both God and himself. But that would be blasphemous. 

Adding man's work to the process of salvation is irreconcilable with the truth of the Word of God. That is why the scripture emphatically declares that:
"For BY GRACE you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the GIFT of God, NOT A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast". Ephesians 2:8&9

"he saved us, NOT BECAUSE OF WORKS done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy" Titus 2:5a

"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, NOT BECAUSE OF OUR WORKS but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began," 2 Timothy 1:9

Salvation is by faith ALONE in Christ ALONE. Man's 'works' (however they are classified) play no part in it from start to finish. 
Acts 13:39 "Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses."

Epic.

5solas:
Excellent!


In harmony with the rest of your posts this should have read , ''Election is God specifically setting apart for honor those who choose to believe in Christ'' or ''Election is God specifically setting apart for honor those who choose to believe in Christ in time'' .
Trust Vooks to take you up on that!

This is all I have been saying all along. You choose to believe in Christ, you are Elect. It is not that you are Elect so you choose to believe in Christ.

Anybody turning to Christ is Elect. Calvinism has it in reverse. God chooses those who will believe in Him. Perish the rest

vooks:
Some amateur theoreticians need to brush up their understanding of ELECTION and PREDESTINATION. By God's grace I will share on these two later in the day

Still waiting.

vooks:

This is all I have been saying all along. You choose to believe in Christ, you are Elect. It is not that you are Elect so you choose to believe in Christ.

Anybody turning to Christ is Elect. Calvinism has it in reverse. God chooses those who will believe in Him. Perish the rest

If you have a proper understanding of the elects and election we will not be having this debate

5solas:

If you have a proper understanding of the elects and election we will not be having this debate

If you were any coherent and spent less time heckling, you'd have understood what I was saying....anyway, we are here to lift the feeble hands

5solas:

Still waiting.

For what?