I think the 'rapture' has been the greatest 'invention' into the christian faith. I dont know where it came from (surely from the pit of hell) most pentecostal churches today believe in 'rapture' quoting 1 thessalonians4:16-17 and 1 cor 15:51-58 but these scriptures doesnt look anything like the rapture. Jesus never mentioned it when the disciples came to him to ask about end-time events(matthew 24), Daniel never said anything like that, the whole of revelation never mentioned it then where does it fit in among the event of end-time?

rich_john:

I think the 'rapture' has been the greatest 'invention' into the christian faith. I dont know where it came from (surely from the pit of hell) most pentecostal churches today believe in 'rapture' quoting 1 thessalonians4:16-17 and 1 cor 15:51-58 but these scriptures doesnt look anything like the rapture. Jesus never mentioned it when the disciples came to him to ask about end-time events(matthew 24), Daniel never said anything like that, the whole of revelation never mentioned it then where does it fit in among the event of end-time?

there is no word like the rapture in the bible, the rapture from popular christian fiction that is largely extra-biblical or the ambiguous christian eschatology that attempts to rewrite and ignore jewish eschatology. paul clearly expected this event to happen in his lifetime, as he obviously counts himself amongst the living. since this obviously did not happen then, that makes paul a false prophet because his prediction was not 100% accurate. In the I Corinthians passage, we again see that paul fully expected to be one of those alive when the events happen. In fact, in both this passage and the I thessalonians passage, he is quite positive that he will be alive to see it. again, his prediction did not come true. He is therefore, a false prophet. so the conclusion can be summarised as

1. paul made a prediction of an event that would happen in his lifetime.
2. paul's lifetime expired without the event happening.
3. paul made a false prediction.
4. since the prediction is false, the event will not happen.

mazaje:

there is no word like the rapture in the bible, the rapture from popular christian fiction that is largely extra-biblical or the ambiguous christian eschatology that attempts to rewrite and ignore jewish eschatology. paul clearly expected this event to happen in his lifetime, as he obviously counts himself amongst the living. since this obviously did not happen then, that makes paul a false prophet because his prediction was not 100% accurate. In the I Corinthians passage, we again see that paul fully expected to be one of those alive when the events happen. In fact, in both this passage and the I thessalonians passage, he is quite positive that he will be alive to see it. again, his prediction did not come true. He is therefore, a false prophet. so the conclusion can be summarised as

1. paul made a prediction of an event that would happen in his lifetime.
2. paul's lifetime expired without the event happening.
3. paul made a false prediction.
4. since the prediction is false, the event will not happen.

I'm beginning to see that ur understanding of english language is ur problem.How can u honestly read those passages and say Paul expected to be alive when the event takes place?Does that wrong understanding of urs agree with what Christ said about the time of the event in matthew 24:36?
Maybe I should post those verses here for u to read and understand:

1Th 4:16-17
(16)  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17)  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:51-58
(51)  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52)  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53)  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54)  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55)  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(56)  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
(57)  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(58)  Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


Mat 24:36
(36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

ttalks:


I'm beginning to see that ur understanding of english language is ur problem.How can u honestly read those passages and say Paul expected to be alive when the event takes place?Does that wrong understanding of urs agree with what Christ said about the time of the event in matthew 24:36?
Maybe I should post those verses here for u to read and understand:

1Th 4:16-17
(16)  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17)  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:51-58
(51)  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52)  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53)  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54)  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55)  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(56)  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
(57)  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(58)  Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

it is very clear that you are a dishonest person you intentinally ignored to quote the verse from the thessalonians.

1Th 4:15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

1Th 4:16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1Th 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

  Mat 24:36
(36)  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 

the same jesus told some of his listeners that they will not taste death before he comes again in his kingdom,  . . he wasn't talking specifically about day or hour he was talking about a time period(the life time of some of his disciples and listeners), he made those assertion about 3 times in the bible, he even told one guy that he will see him come and establish his kingdom. we all know that it never happened. . . . .

Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Mat 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

This was said almost 2000 years ago. the people that complied and edited the bible made a great mistake by leaving out this part in the bible, they should have removed it when making the final compilation. . . .

Well. You should be careful of what you post, and ALSO against blaspheming.
The word "bible" did u see it in the bible, yet you just mentioned about the bible. So also the word rapture is not in the bible and this is neither a fiction nor human imagination. To start with, what Paul spoke about in his epistles, he did not say those events will happen in his lifetime. He waited for the promise not knowing the "times and season" In the days of Noah, Noah told the people of the impending destruction through the flood for about 120yrs  not knowing when the flood will come, yet the people around him did not believe. Do you remember Jesus referring to the days of Noah when they ate and drank? affirming the truism of the event. The sons in law of Lot mocked him when he told them that  destruction was looming upon the city, and even while they left, the wife looked back from behind him and became a pillar of salt, did you hear Jesus warning his disciples saying remember Lot's wife? affirming the truism of that event too.  Jesus while leaving his disciples  said i go to prepare a place and i will come back and take you to myself in my Father's house are many mansions, if it were not so i would have told you. Here, he spoke about the rapture.  Did you remember also that Jesus said no man knows when the son of man shall come in Matt 24? The apostle Peter said in the last time many scoffers coming in their own lust will question "where is the promise of his coming, for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation". 2Pet3:4, and he hinges it on the fact that they are willingly ignorant (v5). He now explains that the reason for the seeming delay is God's patience and longsuffering wanting me and you to repent of our evil ways (v9).

God cannot contradict himself. The rapture is real. it is imminent. Jesus told us of famines, pestilences and earthquakes to precede his coming, and tells us to pray to be accounted worthy to escape what will come upon the earth. The events sch as the global meltdown. is it not a pinch?

IF YOU CLOSE YOUR EYES AND SAY THERE IS NO SUN. DOES THAT VALIDATE YOUR ARGUMENT?

TURN FROM THIS BLASPHEMY AND SEEK FORGIVENESS FROM GOD THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.

THANKS

hymnha:

Well. You should be careful of what you post, and ALSO against blaspheming.
The word "bible" did u see it in the bible, yet you just mentioned about the bible. So also the word rapture is not in the bible and this is neither a fiction nor human imagination. To start with, what Paul spoke about in his epistles, he did not say those events will happen in his lifetime. He waited for the promise not knowing the "times and season" In the days of Noah, Noah told the people of the impending destruction through the flood for about 120yrs  not knowing when the flood will come, yet the people around him did not believe. Do you remember Jesus referring to the days of Noah when they ate and drank? affirming the truism of the event. The sons in law of Lot mocked him when he told them that  destruction was looming upon the city, and even while they left, the wife looked back from behind him and became a pillar of salt, did you hear Jesus warning his disciples saying remember Lot's wife? affirming the truism of that event too.  Jesus while leaving his disciples  said i go to prepare a place and i will come back and take you to myself in my Father's house are many mansions, if it were not so i would have told you. Here, he spoke about the rapture.  Did you remember also that Jesus said no man knows when the son of man shall come in Matt 24? The apostle Peter said in the last time many scoffers coming in their own lust will question "where is the promise of his coming, for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation". 2Pet3:4, and he hinges it on the fact that they are willingly ignorant (v5). He now explains that the reason for the seeming delay is God's patience and longsuffering wanting me and you to repent of our evil ways (v9).

your are more willing to provide emotional apologetics than to read what is actually in the bible here is jesus in his own words according to the bible. . .

Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Mat 16:28[b] I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.[/b]"

even jesus told his listeners that he was going to come in their life time and we know that it never happened. . . .

God cannot contradict himself. The rapture is real. it is imminent.

its very clear that you have never really read the bible. . . .

[b]Jesus told us of famines, pestilences and earthquakes to precede his coming, [/b]and tells us to pray to be accounted worthy to escape what will come upon the earth. The events sch as the global meltdown. is it not a pinch?

after making those statements the same jesus said that that generation will not pass away without him coming back in his kingdom. . . read the bible and stop emotional apologetics. . . .

IF YOU CLOSE YOUR EYES AND SAY THERE IS NO SUN. DOES THAT VALIDATE YOUR ARGUMENT?

TURN FROM THIS BLASPHEMY AND SEEK FORGIVENESS FROM GOD THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.

THANKS

what is blasphemy? blasphemy was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able to take care of themselves.

mazaje:

it is very clear that you are a dishonest person you intentinally ignored to quote the verse from the thessalonians.

@mazaje,
I see u really do not get things.I quoted the verses of 1 Thessalonians as described by the author of the post(rich_john) and they included verses 16 and 17 0f chapter 4.Verse 15 was not included.It was from these same verses that u made ur initial comment about Paul.
Now u accuse me of being dishonest?
Man,u really do not know what u're talking about.You can't seem to follow things as they are.
But,be that as it may,even if u include verse 15,it still does not change anything.You still simply do not understand the use of grammar/english language in those verses.
Since ur understanding of the language is obviously very limited,u definitely cannot make proper conclusions.
So there's no point in trying to make u understand what it was saying or what other topics are saying.
It is up to u now to get a better understanding of the use of the english language.

Here is my take on the matter poster. Like you I believe that the teaching of the secret rapture is a lie. It may have a nice ring to it, but it is a dangerous doctrine that Satan has conjured up in the minds of some Christians to give them a sense of false hope.

Secondly, the so-called prophetic foundation for such a doctrine which according to some is based in the book of Daniel 9 is a wrong interpretation of the chapter anyway, and that is the major weakness of the teaching that can be easily exposed by a simple exposition of Daniel 9, and the NT related passages used to buffer the prophecy.

Thirdly, the few texts that the advocates of the teaching use, have no contextual basis on which to build such a teaching, which have brought on the confusion in the first place.

I will go into more details later.

@hymnha
let me ask you some questions?
1. who told you it took noah 120 years to build the ark? show me in scriptures
2. what was God's reason for destroying the then world?
3. did God ever anywhere in scriptures tell noah to invite people into the ark or preach to them like we were been taught in sunday school?

from the story in the bible God had plans for only noah and his family and the animals! read the story again!

back to the issue
YOU SAID(Jesus told us of famines, pestilences and earthquakes to precede his coming, and tells us to pray to be accounted worthy to escape what will come upon the earth. The events sch as the global meltdown. is it not a pinch?)

BUT NEVER MENTIONED RAPTURE! the second coming of Jesus is not the 'rapture'

Bros dont wait for anything called 'rapture' its the greatest HOAX ever invented. I will soon send some links to show you the evil invention of this 'christian fiction' like mazaje rightly called it.

@Bobbyaf
correct guy you are in the spirit?

ttalks:

@mazaje,
I see u really do not get things.I quoted the verses of 1 Thessalonians as described by the author of the post(rich_john) and they included verses 16 and 17 0f chapter 4.Verse 15 was not included.It was from these same verses that u made ur initial comment about Paul.
Now u accuse me of being dishonest?
Man,u really do not know what u're talking about.You can't seem to follow things as they are.
But,be that as it may,even if u include verse 15,it still does not change anything.You still simply do not understand the use of grammar/english language in those verses.
Since ur understanding of the language is obviously very limited,u definitely cannot make proper conclusions.
So there's no point in trying to make u understand what it was saying or what other topics are saying.[/b]It is up to u now to get a better understanding of the use of the english language.

there is no point in trying to make me understand? what do you want me to understand? your own apologetics or what is written in the bible? paul thought that jesus was coming back to meet him alive there is no way you can spin that. . .

1Th 4:15According to the Lord's own word, [b]we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

1Th 4:16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1Th 4:17    After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

jesus himself told some of his listeners that they will not taste death until they see him come back in his kingdom to reward each person according to what he/she has done.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Mat 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." 
 

jesus specifically told one guy that he will see him come and establish his kingdom during the guy's life time, he also told people living at that time that their generatin will not passaway without him coming back  to establish his kingdom according to the bible. . . it has been 2000 years now and we know that he lied just like all the other gods out there. . . .

@ Mazaje

there is no point in trying to make me understand? what do you want me to understand? your own apologetics or what is written in the bible? paul thought that jesus was coming back to meet him alive there is no way you can spin that. . .

I am not sure that Paul taught that Mazaje. For you to understand what Paul is saying you must understand the manner of speech that was exhibited by Paul and other writers. Although Paul used in some cases the present tense in this part of his letter, it didn't necessarily mean that Paul expected to be alive at Christ's second advent. The expression "we which are alive" indicates that should Christ come in their life time and and they happen to be alive, they would be delivered. It is more a statement of hope that Paul used to comfort God's people who continued to suffer under the hands of the Roman persecutions. You have to see the context.


1 Thes. 4:15-18
"15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."


Notice how Paul expresses himself in 2 Timothy 4:6-8. He is about to be beheaded, but listen to the tone of confidence that he displays. He speaks as if he is already being rewarded. In 1 Thessalonians he speaks with a similar confidence to include himself in the "we", but in truth what that means is that Paul could not have merely said "when you are alive", because what if Christ had come in their lifetime?

"6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

Bobbyaf:

@ Mazaje

I am not sure that Paul taught that Mazaje. For you to understand what Paul is saying you must understand the manner of speech that was exhibited by Paul and other writers. Although Paul used in some cases the present tense in this part of his letter, it didn't necessarily mean that Paul expected to be alive at Christ's second advent. The expression "we which are alive" indicates that should Christ come in their life time and and they happen to be alive, they would be delivered. It is more a statement of hope that Paul used to comfort God's people who continued to suffer under the hands of the Roman persecutions. You have to see the context.

D is this another case of we know what the bible is saying but not what it actually means or what? paul wrote in very clear terms what he feels will happen during his life time. many christian apologist i know of have conceded that fact and concluded that he was wrong in making that prediction. paul's writings are very clear. he thaught that jesus was going to come during his life time. . . .

1 Thes. 4:15-18
"15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

this passage does not need further explanation.

Notice how Paul expresses himself in 2 Timothy 4:6-8. He is about to be beheaded, but listen to the tone of confidence that he displays. He speaks as if he is already being rewarded. In 1 Thessalonians he speaks with a similar confidence to include himself in the "we", but in truth what that means is that Paul could not have merely said "when you are alive", because what if Christ had come in their lifetime?

"6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

there is nothing there for me to take note of, the only thing that you should take note of is that paul when writing to the thessalonians wrongly predicted that jesus was going to come during his life time, when that did not happen and he realized that he was going to be killed he accepted and moved on, hence the letter in timothy(where did he write the letter to timothy? did he write it in prison?). . . by the way even jesus told his disciples and listeners that he was going to come during their life time. . . . .

D Grin Grin Grin Grin is this another case of we know what the bible is saying but not what it actually means or what? paul wrote in very clear terms what he feels will happen during his life time. many christian apologist i know of have conceded that fact and concluded that he was wrong in making that prediction. paul's writings are very clear. he thaught that jesus was going to come during his life time. . . .

I am saying that you do not understand Paul's use of language. Its as simple as that. To labour the point about Paul's failed prediction is bordering on madness if you ask me. The context of the letter was not based on a prediction, but rather an assurance that those who were alive would not precede those who died.