@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

brainbox1 link=topic=263218.msg3823376#msg3823376 date=1241516471:

While it is important to acknowledge that the law was important while it lasted, it is essential you are reminded that the law has been abolished by the law of the Christ. Christians therefore are guided not by the mosaic laws but by the law of the christ. However, the law might have been done away it, but the principles behind the law are still very relevant even in christian lives because the one who gave the law is God (The same one we still serve).

Thanks for this very simple but precise explaination. This is what some of us have been trying to explain since, the apostles also wrote several scriptures to explain this reality but some people are obvoiusly tooo thick in the head to realise this and would rather cut themselves off the grace of christ by trying to uphold the letters of the law.

I no fit laugh. You . . talk about the "principles" of the Law?!? I hear.  That's the very same thing I can affirm as regards the Law that I've always been talking about (its principles), I don't and will not refer to anyone as 'obvoiusly tooo thick in the head'. It's not healthy to address others the way you have been doing, Kunle. Nevertheless, let's remind you of several examples to the fact that I've been talking about the "principles of the Law" (even as far back as 2007):


1. in response to ishmael:
[list]

ishmael:

And the Apostles in the new testament also made us to understand that we were no longer living under the law.

That is true (Rom. 6:14). But they did not mean by that principles of the Law have been done away with; because it is very imporant to understand how they applied its principles in the Christian life (1 John 3:4).

[/list]

2. In another relevant thread where I dealt a bit extensively on the Law:
[list][li]

It is true that I had distinguished between "the letter" and "divine principles" of the Law - and I did so far earlier than that in showing how the term "the Law" is used in the NT in various contexts:


(b) Its application in the NT furnishes us with the following:
* specific commandments
* prophecies
* exhortations
* divine principles

. . . and also elsewhere:


[list]"I also made reference to the fact that we are not asked to look for LITERAL applications of every single verse; but rather seek to understand the PRINCIPLES stated, explained and applied in the NT."[/list]

[/list]

3. Even on this thread, I reiterated the same thing:
[list]

"I don't think so. In stating that, "when u aren't under something(law),u are not subject to it or its tenets", you're not making issues any simpler for yourself. In simple terms, a "tenet" is a "principle"; hence, it is sadly untrue to draw the inference that Christians are not subject to the principles of the Law."

. . . It is not the legalism of the Law that is being sought after in the NT; rather, it is the "tenets" (that is, the "principles".

[/li][/list]


Finally, I'm glad that those who may not have paid close attention to the "principles" are now coming round seeing the point - that is not something new that I started talking about recently, but has always and consistently been what I urged others to see.

@Pilgrim.1
Ok if we are agreed on the issue of principles how are those principles inherent in the commandment to tithe under the law being upheld in the way tithing is being preached and administered in our churches today. Remember as i stated in the other thread God ordained tithing for the levites as compensation for their not being allowed to own property as clearly stated in numbers 18:23-24. Biblical tithing was also in the form of food which the tither could eat out of with his family and other less priviledge people deut 14:22-29. How are the principles involved in biblical tithing being upheld today?

Kunle, you have always acted like a loser from the very start of this post, you give out pious post, and you know like i said in my last post, i was disguisted, so i left the post, those it will minister to, it will. It is my sincere prayer for you that God open your eyes to see and know what tithe means, not what you feel or claim it is. ok

@ pilgrim
God is faithful, i never knew someone would really go on ahead, cos i tried all i could but you know whosoever God will change, he will change and whosoever he will destroy, will never change, for example is Pharaoh. God bless you, keep up the good work, i will try to compliment them. well done

@todak
Instead of getting angry at me and "disgusted" for exposing all the lies in your delusions about tithes why don't you just show every body from the scriptures[undiluted and NOT twisted] how any thing i have written is wrong. If you say you are disgusted maybe it is the scriptures that is disgusting you as all i wrote was clearly 100% backed by the word of God[bible]

todak:

@ pilgrim
God is faithful, i never knew someone would really go on ahead, cos i tried all i could but you know whosoever God will change, he will change and whosoever he will destroy, will never change, for example is Pharaoh. God bless you, keep up the good work, i will try to compliment them. well done

@todak,

To be honest with you, I was an avowed anti-tither until God changed my heart and my life completely. Sometimes, it is difficult to see reason with other believers who see something spiritual in God's Word, and that was my attitude until He graciously started dealing with my heart. When I changed my views (after proving the faithfulness of God), I was a bit too passionate in trying to share His wonderful ways with other believers - it didn't take long for me to realize that attitudes are also important in delivering His truth. So, patience, brother, patience. . . do not let criticisms adversely affect you (I understand your gracious ways, and appreciate them). Let God show those who will be hunble enough to hear, and we can leave the rest in His hands. God bless you richly in all things.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

@todak
Instead of getting angry at me and "disgusted" for exposing all the lies in your delusions about tithes why don't you just show every body from the scriptures[undiluted and NOT twisted] how any thing i have written is wrong. If you say you are disgusted maybe it is the scriptures that is disgusting you as all i wrote was clearly 100% backed by the word of God[bible]

Easy now, Kunle. This is exactly what I've been appealing against: no need for this unhealthy reactions on this subject - afterall, this is only a forum and nobody is "obligated" to pay tithe on NL, abi? I'm not sure though, that everything you wrote was clearly 100% backed by the word of God; but that is another matter entirely.

Now, to your very important and interesting question:

KunleOshob:

Ok if we are agreed on the issue of principles how are those principles inherent in the commandment to tithe under the law being upheld in the way tithing is being preached and administered in our churches today.

As you know, I'm not inclined to arguments about "churches today" doing this or that, because my quest is not to start pointing accusing fingers at anyone (doing so does not help us anyways).

However, if the question is rather about how the principles of tithing could be helpful to Christians who are desiring to tithe, the simple answer is 1 Cor. 16:2 - set aside a portion of your income as God has prospered you. This could mean a number of things, but quoting the CEV on that verse again to illustrate the point:

[list][li]"each Sunday each of you must put aside part of what you have earned"[/li][/list]

Perhaps another helpful and simple reading of that verse is as rendered by the NLT:

[list][li]"On the first day of each week, you should each put aside a portion of the money you have earned."[/li][/list]

Two basic things here:

(a) "each one of you" - this is what believers are encouraged to do, as those words do not make the exhortation applicable to only a select few in Church. To be sure, this principle was widely applicable, for verse 1 shows that the apostle had recommended the same thing to "the churches in Galatia" as well. We understand, however, that this is not a mandatory matter (so I'm not too confident to say that the "must" that CEV has in verse 2 helps us here).

(b) "put aside part" (or as NLT: "put aside a portion" - it is entirely open to the believer what he/she would like to put aside from their income as God prospers them, for whatever part someone "puts aside" is also a percentage of their income, no doubt about that. Some Christians put aside (or tithe) less than 10%, others set theirs above 10% - the principle is that God encourages cheerful giving that is not stingy or done with grumbling (see 2 Cor. 9:7). This should also help others who are wondering whether it should be done out of 'gross or net earnings', etc. - please do not get tied up with all such complications, for God seeks that a believer gives from what he/she has, and not what they do not have (2 Cor. 8:12).

These, of course, are not the only or final inference that could be drawn from the verses above; but they're offered in as simple answers to the basic question of how the principle works out for Christians desiring to tithe.

Now, as regards the second part of your concerns, let me first say that it is not a legalism (ie., the "letter" of the Law) that we are seeking here, remember? Rather, we're seeking to understand the 'spirit' (ie., the 'principle') behind the call to tithe. That said, let's clear a few misconceptions before going on about ministering to others through our tithes.

KunleOshob:

Remember as i stated in the other thread God ordained tithing for the levites as compensation for their not being allowed to own property as clearly stated in numbers 18:23-24.

Often times, people see only one side of a subject while completely forgetting the complimentary side. Such is the case about the Levites not being 'allowed to own property' (from a cursory reading of Numbers 18:23-24) because of the service which they occupy on Israel's behalf.

But hang on a minute: is that all there is about the Levites? I'm not sure that is the case. Let me leave you an assignment for now and then we'll come back to this very point after your answer. Please read up Leviticus 25:32-33 and see if indeed the Levites were "not being allowed to own property" -

[list]"Notwithstanding the cities of the Levites, and the houses of
the cities of their possession, may the Levites redeem at any time.
And if a man purchase of the Levites, then the house that was sold,
and the city of his possession, shall go out in the year of jubile:
for the houses of the cities of the Levites are their possession among
the children of Israel."[/list]

As as I said, I won't comment just as yet; but after reading those verses, please let us know your thoughts on them in relation to Numbers 18:23-24.

KunleOshob:

Biblical tithing was also in the form of food which the tither could eat out of with his family and other less priviledge people deut 14:22-29. How are the principles involved in biblical tithing being upheld today?

Today, many churches apply their tithes to various needs as are peculair to their situation. Indeed, Christian giving applies to several concerns rather than to just one; and only when we seek out some of those concerns do we ourselves begin to understand the applications of our giving (whether tithes or other forms of offerings). A few examples of these concerns:

[list][li]to take care of those who are truly widows in the church - 1 Tim. 5:3[/li]
[li]to support godly elders in the church - 1 Tim. 5:17-18[/li]
[li]to support ministers of the Gospel - 1 Cor. 9:13-14[/li]
[li]to acknowledge the ministry of those who minister to us - Galatians 6:6[/li]
[li]to support missionaries and missions - Php. 4:14-18;  3 John 7-8[/li]
[li]to support poorer saints both locally and elsewhere - Romans 15:25-27[/li]
[li]possibly to help provide for such occasions as 'love feasts' among Christians - Jude 12[/li]
[li]to help others in times of distress (such as in disaster relief efforts) - Acts 11:27-30[/li][/list]

Of course, these are by no means an exhaustive list of possibilities to which our giving (whether tithes or other offerings) are applicable.

However, the question of whether a tither could eat his own tithe (Deut. 14:22-29) does not suggest that we could do as we please with our tithes, in so far as it was not treated as one's domestic frivolity. For one, the tither was to eat it at the stipulated center (v. 23 - "in the place which he shall choose to place his name there", and rather not at their homes. Second, they were not to selfishly eat their tithes all by themselves, but to also share with the Levites and poor folks (v. 28-29  -- "lay it up within thy gates: and the Levite, . .  and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied".

Could the Church learn from this? I trust so - if the words in Galatians 6:10 mean anything to us >> "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith."

Regards.

Tithe is an OT law and practice that has no relevance these days that we're under his Grace. Jesus has paid the debt of all mankind (though you won't hear that from these "gospel entertainers/prosperity preachers) because that would affect their haul. Christians are mandated to study his Word and not allow it to be translated to them by dubious money hungry pastors to fund their foreign junkets or private jets, most of them won't even survive Mosaic laws but take just one to milk their congregations dry. Abraham was already a very rich man before he gave 10% of the spoils of war and allowed his men to take the rest. Why was Apostle Paul sewing Tents to make money instead of imposing tithes? Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith and he didn't impose a tithe either because he is from the tribe of Judah and was not allowed to, Paul from the tribe of Benjamin couldn't collect either. Only the produce of the land was tithed in those days, let them show you passages where fishermen, tent makers, etc were charged tithes. Using the holy Bible to line your pockets and build castles here on earth instead of in Heaven is a WRONG doctrine and I am sure punishable on Judgment day as well, give from the heart is what Christians are instructed to do not an imposed %, wake up and educate your selves.

Well summarised Abose; "tithing", especially as taught today, is simply false doctrine and irrelevant for Christians. You will find that most if not all attempts to justify the continuation of the practice today are circular or tortuous interpretations of the Bible; some being deliberately dishonest (those whose gods are their belly); some being intellectually dishonest (the dogmatists who do not look at the relevant biblical passages, biblical history etc objectively).

I still find that modern tithing preachers fail to address Deuteronomy 14 either at all, properly or honestly as the passage clearly states that the tither (who converts it to money) should spend the money on whatsoever his own heart desires - including strong drink! How do modern tithe teachers reconcile that with what they teach?

@abose,

Your comments reflect your ideas, and that's okay. However, it is missing the point terribly and sadly because you have no clue about what the Law actually is, nor how the apostles applied its principles in the NT. Here is an example:

abose:

Tithe is an OT law and practice that has no relevance these days that we're under his Grace. Jesus has paid the debt of all mankind (though you won't hear that from these "gospel entertainers/prosperity preachers) because that would affect their haul.

The terrible mistake people often make is to assume that the tithe was a 'debt', therefore 'Jesus has paid the "debt" of all mankind' which for you supposes no clues about tithing. It is this sort of misplaced thinking that makes people assume that the tithes was instituted to justify anybody in the sight of God. Unfortunately, that is not what the Bible teaches; and in all the references to tithing in the Bible you will not find such a conclusion. You don't have to argue against tithes just because some people are abusing it in many places.

abose:

Christians are mandated to study his Word and not allow it to be translated to them by dubious money hungry pastors to fund their foreign junkets or private jets, most of them won't even survive Mosaic laws but take just one to milk their congregations dry.

Tithes have nothing in Scripture to do with any of those reasons.

abose:

Abraham was already a very rich man before he gave 10% of the spoils of war and allowed his men to take the rest. Why was Apostle Paul sewing Tents to make money instead of imposing tithes? Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith and he didn't impose a tithe either because he is from the tribe of Judah and was not allowed to, Paul from the tribe of Benjamin couldn't collect either.

You're reading the "letter" instead of seeking to grasp the "spirit" (ie., the "principle" of the Law. We've been through your ideas in other threads and thrashed them thoroughly for their weakness. Though the Lord Jesus was from the tribe of Judah (Heb. 7:14), and while on earth He was not a priest (Heb. 8:4), yet He also taught and encouraged tithes rather than abrogate it (Matt. 23:23). How could He then have taught about tithes and urged it even though he was not from the tribe of Levi?

The apostle Paul made a living from tent making (Acts 18:3), yet he both received and even directly asked churches to sponsor his missionary trips (Php. 4:14-18;  Rom. 15:24;  1 Cor. 16:6;   2 Cor. 1:16). The problem with many people who fail to see these simple matters is because the only thing they see about tithes is "coercion" and from what is "imposed"; yet such people would not complain if they were reminded that financially supporting preachers is what the Lord has "ordained" (KJV) or "commanded" (NIV) or even "ordered" (NLT) in the principle of what was ordained in the OT - 1 Cor. 9:13-14.

abose:

Only the produce of the land was tithed in those days, let them show you passages where fishermen, tent makers, etc were charged tithes. Using the holy Bible to line your pockets and build castles here on earth instead of in Heaven is a WRONG doctrine and I am sure punishable on Judgment day as well, give from the heart is what Christians are instructed to do not an imposed %, wake up and educate your selves.

You would do better to wake yourself up and realize that the commandment for Christians to support preachers was not drawn vacantly from the air, but it was drawn from the OT Law (study 1 Cor. 9:13-14). You seem to be recycling the same old-fashioned dry legalism of anti-tithers who cannot see the principle of the Law in the NT. Even Jews today who tithe do so out of their financial earnings and are not so rigid about agricultural produce (see this thread where I reminded us of the fact). Perhaps it may be more helpful if you could assess issues from a healthy perspective and not from the abuses you see around you.

@Enigma,

Enigma:

Well summarised Abose; "tithing", especially as taught today, is simply false doctrine and irrelevant for Christians. You will find that most if not all attempts to justify the continuation of the practice today are circular or tortuous interpretations of the Bible; some being deliberately dishonest (those whose gods are their belly); some being intellectually dishonest (the dogmatists who do not look at the relevant biblical passages, biblical history etc objectively).

It's quite amusing that many people seem to be confusing themselves on this subject. Is it "tithing" itself that is "simply false doctrine", or the abuses about it that we see in many places? Even 'dogmatists' themselves who are anti-tithers have no clue on many of the things they assert - and in many instances we have seen how very dubious they could be. I just wonder that so many of these anti-tither 'dogmatists' will shy away from 1 Corinthians 9:13-16 - for the same reasons you have outlined: they 'do not look at the relevant biblical passages, biblical history etc objectively'.

Enigma:

I still find that modern tithing preachers fail to address Deuteronomy 14 either at all, properly or honestly as the passage clearly states that the tither (who converts it to money) should spend the money on whatsoever his own heart desires - including strong drink! How do modern tithe teachers reconcile that with what they teach?

I don't know how "modern tithe teachers" reconcile what you seek; but it's not true to say that they fail to address Deuteronomy 14 at all, properly or honestly. As you can see, KunleOshob asked a question on the relevant text above (from verse 22-29), and I offered an honest answer. There are others who also have given concise answers on that same subject, but no - the anti-tithers' emphasis is on "strong drink" and it seems that is all they care about; whereas that is not the emphasis of that chapter.

pilgrim.1:

@KunleOshob,

Easy now, Kunle. This is exactly what I've been appealing against: no need for this unhealthy reactions on this subject - afterall, this is only a forum and nobody is "obligated" to pay tithe on NL, abi? I'm not sure though, that everything you wrote was clearly 100% backed by the word of God; but that is another matter entirely.

Kindly show me at least one thing i have written that is not clearly backed by scripture.

pilgrim.1:

However, if the question is rather about how the principles of tithing could be helpful to Christians who are desiring to tithe, the simple answer is 1 Cor. 16:2 - set aside a portion of your income as God has prospered you. This could mean a number of things, but quoting the CEV on that verse again to illustrate the point:

The passage you quoted above is another passage being mis-used by the church to justify collection of weekly tithes and offerings from the congregation. the truth is that paul was trying to raise money for the christians in jerusalem who were being persecuted at that time. It was a special collection of some sort and NOT a mandate to christians to practise till eternity. the sad thing is that the impact of that passage is being mis-used and mis-construed. What that we should learn from that passage is that as christians we should learn to help one another when in need. As i have always said the main reason for collections and giving in the new testament was for charity and helping those in need, it is indeeed unfortunate that the pulpit as taken advantage of the ignorance of the congregation to exploit the srciptures for their own selfish/greedy benefit.

1 Corinthians 16:1-5:
The Collection for Jerusalem
1 Now regarding your question about the money being collected for God’s people in Jerusalem. You should follow the same procedure I gave to the churches in Galatia. 2 On the first day of each week, you should each put aside a portion of the money you have earned. Don’t wait until I get there and then try to collect it all at once.

pilgrim.1:


Tithes have nothing in Scripture to do with any of those reasons.

You're reading the "letter" instead of seeking to grasp the "spirit" (ie., the "principle" of the Law. We've been through your ideas in other threads and thrashed them thoroughly for their weakness. Though the Lord Jesus was from the tribe of Judah (Heb. 7:14), and while on earth He was not a priest (Heb. 8:4), yet He also taught and encouraged tithes rather than abrogate it (Matt. 23:23). How could He then have taught about tithes and urged it even though he was not from the tribe of Levi?

It is very dis-honest to claim Jesus taught and encouraged tithes based on matthew 23:23. In that verse Jesus was addressing pharisees who where under the law at that time hence the pharisees were bound to tithe as Jesus stated, that apart he NEVER taught it to his followers and none of his disciples ever taught or encouraged it, infact it was anulled in hebrews7:11 and described as weak and useless in hebrew7:18, this i am sure you are very aware of. That apart the impact of that verse was not to endorse tithing but rather to show the hyprocrysy in the pharisees who practised the less revelant [tithes] part of the law whilst ignoring the more important principles inherent in it.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

Kindly show me at least one thing i have written that is not clearly backed by scripture.

There are obviously so many of them - I asked you questions in the relevant threads and you forever ducked them. However, even in this thread, I've shown an example here.

KunleOshob:

The passage you quoted above is another passage being mis-used by the church to justify collection of weekly tithes and offerings from the congregation. the truth is that paul was trying to raise money for the christians in jerusalem who were being persecuted at that time. It was a special collection of some sort and NOT a mandate to christians to practise till eternity. the sad thing is that the impact of that passage is being mis-used and mis-construed. What that we should learn from that passage is that as christians we should learn to help one another when in need. As i have always said the main reason for collections and giving in the new testament was for charity and helping those in need, it is indeeed unfortunate that the pulpit as taken advantage of the ignorance of the congregation to exploit the srciptures for their own selfish/greedy benefit.

1 Corinthians 16:1-5:
The Collection for Jerusalem
1 Now regarding your question about the money being collected for God’s people in Jerusalem. You should follow the same procedure I gave to the churches in Galatia. 2 On the first day of each week, you should each put aside a portion of the money you have earned. Don’t wait until I get there and then try to collect it all at once.

After your complaints, did I use 1 Corinthians 16:2 as a mandate, KunleOshob? I already noted that it is not my interest what any church is doing so as to point accusing fingers at anyone - I already said so; and if you cannot discuss until the dark side of you comes to the fore, please let me know. You seem to always be ignoring the fact that I've repeatedly highlighted that my discussions on this subject have nothing to do with any form of "coercion" or mandate or obligation - so please refrain from this unnecessary entertainment of using this discussion to further your derogation of others.

However, is it not amazing that you folks would complain about 1 Corinthians 16 and yet will never raise an eyebrow on the parallel reference in 2 Corinthians 8 and 9?? I am often amused about how anti-tithers will quote the latter for "Christian giving" but will have problems with the former - whereas the objections about "Jerusalem" you gave to one is the very same thing you find in the other!

Compare both passages in the NLT version you quoted from -

[list][li]1 Corinthians 16:1-2:
.
The Collection for Jerusalem
1 Now regarding your question about the money being collected for God’s people in Jerusalem. You should follow the same procedure I gave to the churches in Galatia. 2 On the first day of each week, you should each put aside a portion of the money you have earned. Don’t wait until I get there and then try to collect it all at once. [/li]
.
.

[li]2 Corinthians 8:3-4 & 18-19:
.
3 For I can testify that they gave not only what they could afford, but far more. And they did it of their own free will. 4 They begged us again and again for the privilege of sharing in the gift for the believers in Jerusalem.
18 We are also sending another brother with Titus. All the churches praise him as a preacher of the Good News. 19 He was appointed by the churches to accompany us as we take the offering to Jerusalem—a service that glorifies the Lord and shows our eagerness to help.[/li]
.
.
.
[li]2 Corithians 9:1-2 & 12:
.
The Collection for Christians in Jerusalem
1 I really don’t need to write to you about this ministry of giving for the believers in Jerusalem. 2 For I know how eager you are to help, and I have been boasting to the churches in Macedonia that you in Greece were ready to send an offering a year ago. In fact, it was your enthusiasm that stirred up many of the Macedonian believers to begin giving.
12 So two good things will result from this ministry of giving—the needs of the believers in Jerusalem will be met, and they will joyfully express their thanks to God[/li][/list]

If you have problems with 1 Corithians 16, then you should never refer to 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 for "Christian" giving - since both passages are dealing with your objection on the word "Jerusalem".

KunleOshob:

It is very dis-honest to claim Jesus taught and encouraged tithes based on matthew 23:23. In that verse Jesus was addressing pharisees who where under the law at that time hence the pharisees were bound to tithe as Jesus stated, that apart he NEVER taught it to his followers and none of his disciples ever taught or encouraged it, infact it was anulled in hebrews7:11 and described as weak and useless in hebrew7:18, this i am sure you are very aware of. That apart the impact of that verse was not to endorse tithing but rather to show the hyprocrysy in the pharisees who practised the less revelant [tithes] part of the law whilst ignoring the more important principles inherent in it.

You sadly have no clue - for the Hebrews 7:11 and 18 that you worry about, I've already discussed what exactly was "weak" and why it was so - those verses did not teach that "tithes" are weak and useless, unless you can show how God ever gave tithes to justify anybody!

As for Matthew 23:23, your arguments are again very weak, because you suppose that just because Jesus was speaking to the Jews at that time, it is no longer relevant. Go over to Matthew 22:33-40 and you will find the same problems you worry about -

[list][li]Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees[/li]
[li]Jesus was quoting the Law as well[/li]
[li]He did not quote that Law to His disciples when He addressed the Jews[/li][/list]

WHY are you not making the same inference as you did for Matthew 23:23? The hypocrisy you make for others that you cannot see in your argument is a wonder in itself.

Meanwhile, KunleOshob, how come you seem to have skipped the small assigment I proposed for your consideration? You asked a question, but are not interested in following it up? Here again:

pilgrim.1:

KunleOshob link=topic=263218.msg3825014#msg3825014 date=1241534797:

Remember as i stated in the other thread God ordained tithing for the levites as compensation for their not being allowed to own property as clearly stated in numbers 18:23-24.

Often times, people see only one side of a subject while completely forgetting the complimentary side. Such is the case about the Levites not being 'allowed to own property' (from a cursory reading of Numbers 18:23-24) because of the service which they occupy on Israel's behalf.

But hang on a minute: is that all there is about the Levites? I'm not sure that is the case. Let me leave you an assignment for now and then we'll come back to this very point after your answer. Please read up Leviticus 25:32-33 and see if indeed the Levites were "not being allowed to own property" -

[list]"Notwithstanding the cities of the Levites, and the houses of
the cities of their possession, may the Levites redeem at any time.
And if a man purchase of the Levites, then the house that was sold,
and the city of his possession, shall go out in the year of jubile:
for the houses of the cities of the Levites are their possession among
the children of Israel."[/list]

As as I said, I won't comment just as yet; but after reading those verses, please let us know your thoughts on them in relation to Numbers 18:23-24.

Would you like to compare both references and let's know your thoughts? Thank you.

My own inside all of this is: Tithe is supposed to be food, not money and further more the awuf is supposed to be shared in the presence of the Lord. This small detail that is being overlooked is more pertinent than it is being given credit for, I think.

What do forum members think of the significance of the shared meal in religious worship? I'm not just talking about tithe now, but also about the Lord's supper which is one of the central rites of christianity but is funnily absent in most if not all of the pentecostal churches.

How can christians, who claim to be practicing christianity come together to fellowship without awuf? How? This is terrible corruption of christianity.

Pastor AIO:

My own inside all of this is: Tithe is supposed to be food, not money and further more the awuf is supposed to be shared in the presence of the Lord. This small detail that is being overlooked is more pertinent than it is being given credit for, I think.

What do forum members think of the significance of the shared meal in religious worship? I'm not just talking about tithe now, but also about the Lord's supper which is one of the central rites of christianity but is funnily absent in most if not all of the pentecostal churches.

How can christians, who claim to be practicing christianity come together to fellowship without awuf? How? This is terrible corruption of christianity.

Good question! How about the washing of feet? In my days as a SDA, we (or the adults) used to wash the feet of their brothers and sisters every now and then in the church. Most Christians today have lost their way.

Pastor AIO:

My own inside all of this is: Tithe is supposed to be food, not money and further more the awuf is supposed to be shared in the presence of the Lord. This small detail that is being overlooked is more pertinent than it is being given credit for, I think.

What do forum members think of the significance of the shared meal in religious worship? I'm not just talking about tithe now, but also about the Lord's supper which is one of the central rites of christianity but is funnily absent in most if not all of the pentecostal churches.

How can christians, who claim to be practicing christianity come together to fellowship without awuf? How? This is terrible corruption of christianity.

@Pastor AIO,

I don't know if the life of a believer is determined by "small details", though I don't think they should be discarded out of hand. The point is that it is not in the small details of legalism that the NT discusses or encourages giving, even though the apostles quoted copiously from the OT Law to teach giving for Christians.

On the other hand, I don't know how many Christians would draw a parallel in "awuf" and the Lord's Supper, if we can understand that they're not the same things. However, although it seems more probable that early Christians enjoyed such fellowships of 'feast of love' (or 'agape feast' as it's commonly called - Jude 12), yet some may be misled to think it is the same thing as the Lord's Supper. As for the awuf type of fellowship nosh, I know several churches which have such expressions often in areas I've visited.

Pastor AIO:

My own inside all of this is:  Tithe is supposed to be food, not money and further more the awuf is supposed to be shared in the presence of the Lord.  This small detail that is being overlooked is more pertinent than it is being given credit for, I think. ,

This is interesting; it is also one of the reasons that long winded and tortuous attempts to justify tithing do not merit any real effort to debunk them; in fact most can be easily dismissed contemptuously.

As we keep referring to Deuteronomy 14: yes, the tithe, in the form of produce and livestock, was meant to be consumed by the tither himself --- sharing with widows, orphans etc.

The only reference concerning money was that if it was too difficult to carry the tithe (produce and livestock) to the designated place, the tither could convert it to money. Now here (repeated again!) is another conundrum for those who teach tithes today: if the tither converts the tithe to money, he was supposed to spend the money on whatsoever his heart desires, that is, whatsoever his heart desires ---- not necessarily anything spiritual but things for jolly jolly jollification (or "frivolity" including strong drink and then share those things with widows, orphans etc etc. What is the equivalent of that in today's tithing teaching and practise?

huxley:

Good question!  How about the washing of feet?  In my days as a SDA, we (or the adults) used to wash the feet of their brothers and sisters every now and then in the church.  Most Christians today have lost their way.

Huxley, I doubt you've written the above in order to help Christians find their way again.

Pastor AIO:

Huxley, I doubt you've written the above in order to help Christians find their way again.  

Yep, I am familiar too with huxley's tactics and have an idea of his intentions.

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pilgrim.1:

@Pastor AIO,

I don't know if the life of a believer is determined by "small details", though I don't think they should be discarded out of hand. The point is that it is not in the small details of legalism that the NT discusses or encourages giving, even though the apostles quoted copiously from the OT Law to teach giving for Christians.

On the other hand, I don't know how many Christians would draw a parallel in "awuf" and the Lord's Supper, if we can understand that they're not the same things. However, although it seems more probable that early Christians enjoyed such fellowships of 'feast of love' (or 'agape feast' as it's commonly called - Jude 12), yet some may be misled to think it is the same thing as the Lord's Supper. As for the awuf type of fellowship nosh, I know several churches which have such expressions often in areas I've visited.

My tongue was in my cheek when I said 'small details'.  I don't think it is a small detail at all.  And I don't think it is only an act of charity either.  It has spiritual repercussions. Sharing a meal dedicated to a diety is a practice that is recognised in almost every religious tradition in the world. It is rooted in the belief that nourishment is a sacred act.

Enigma:

This is interesting; it is also one of the reasons that long winded and tortuous attempts to justify tithing do not merit any real effort to debunk them; in fact most can be easily dismissed contemptuously.

As we keep referring to Deuteronomy 14: yes, the tithe, in the form of produce and livestock, was meant to be consumed by the tither himself --- sharing with widows, orphans etc.

The only reference concerning money was that if it was too difficult to carry the tithe (produce and livestock) to the designated place, the tither could convert it to money. Now here (repeated again!) is another conundrum for those who teach tithes today: if the tither converts the tithe to money, he was supposed to spend the money on whatsoever his heart desires, that is, whatsoever his heart desires ---- not necessarily anything spiritual but things for jolly jolly jollification (or "frivolity" including strong drink and then share those things with widows, orphans etc etc. What is the equivalent of that in today's tithing teaching and practise?

Don't you realise that revealing such eternal "truths" of scriptures is inimical to the wealth-mongering zeal of the pastors?  You should keep such inner mysteries of the bible to yourself.

Enigma:

This is interesting; it is also one of the reasons that long winded and tortuous attempts to justify tithing do not merit any real effort to debunk them; in fact most can be easily dismissed contemptuously.

As we keep referring to Deuteronomy 14: yes, the tithe, in the form of produce and livestock, was meant to be consumed by the tither himself --- sharing with widows, orphans etc.

The only reference concerning money was that if it was too difficult to carry the tithe (produce and livestock) to the designated place, the tither could convert it to money. Now here (repeated again!) is another conundrum for those who teach tithes today: if the tither converts the tithe to money, he was supposed to spend the money on whatsoever his heart desires, that is, whatsoever his heart desires ---- not necessarily anything spiritual but things for jolly jolly jollification (or "frivolity" including strong drink and then share those things with widows, orphans etc etc. What is the equivalent of that in today's tithing teaching and practise?

Could someone who contemptuously easily dismisses the subject please share their thoughts on what Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14. If some prefer, here are those verses as rendered by the NLT -


[list]"13 Don’t you realize that those who work in the temple get their meals from the offerings brought to the temple? And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings. 14 In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it."[/list]

What did Paul mean by quoting the OT and saying "in the same way" in order to encourage Christian giving?

Pastor AIO:

My tongue was in my cheek when I said 'small details'. I don't think it is a small detail at all. And I don't think it is only an act of charity either. It has spiritual repercussions. Sharing a meal dedicated to a diety is a practice that is recognised in almost every religious tradition in the world. It is rooted in the belief that nourishment is a sacred act.

Okay, I hear.

Pastor AIO:

Huxley, I doubt you've written the above in order to help Christians find their way again.  

Absolutely!  It may well be that some Christian are not getting the blessings they desire because they have not been doing all the right things, one of which includes the washing of feet.  So if they were to introduce this practice into their Christian life, this may prove the ice-breaker.

My dear pilgrim.1

I see you've engaged my posts on two occasions asking me questions: I'm afraid I have no intention whatsoever of wasting my time on any of such questions.

I will post what I want to post when I want to post and how I want to post.

All the best.

Enigma:

My dear pilgrim.1

I see you've engaged my posts on two occasions asking me questions: I'm afraid I have no intention whatsoever of wasting my time on any of such questions.

I will post what I want to post when I want to post and how I want to post.

All the best.

Lol, I wasn't expecting you'd be inclined - but just so I don't draw the wrong conclusions was why I once again invited you to consider them. Cheerio.

pilgrim.1:

Could someone who contemptuously easily dismisses the subject please share their thoughts on what Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14. If some prefer, here are those verses as rendered by the NLT -


[list]"13 Don’t you realize that those who work in the temple get their meals from the offerings brought to the temple? And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings. 14 In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it."[/list]

What did Paul mean by quoting the OT and saying "in the same way" in order to encourage Christian giving?

There are two points that leap out at me here. The first is that I don't think Paul was referring to tithes at all.

And secondly, christians believe themselves to be members of the priesthood. Subsequently as the priests shared in the eating of the sacrifices so also all christians share their sacrificial meal.

A third point has just occurred to me. Many christians consider evangelism to be a great commission extended to all christians. This blurs the lines between those who preach the gospel and those who benefit from it.

Thanks for the attempts.

Pastor AIO:

There are two points that leap out at me here. The first is that I don't think Paul was referring to tithes at all.

What was he referring to - what/where was he drawing his inferences from? Was he referring to any OT references; and if yes, what could they be?

Pastor AIO:

And secondly, christians believe themselves to be members of the priesthood. Subsequently as the priests shared in the eating of the sacrifices so also all christians share their sacrificial meal.

Was Paul talking about sacrificial meal in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14?

Pastor AIO:

A third point has just occurred to me. Many christians consider evangelism to be a great commission extended to all christians. This blurs the lines between those who preach the gospel and those who benefit from it.

well, is 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 in context blurring any lines?

@Pilgrim.1
The place you falsely claimed i was not quoting the scripture properly because of the insertion "Jesus and his apostles never preached tithe" i put is you trying to cast me in bad light cause i clearly bracketed the insertion to make it known it was an insertion. That aside what i inserted is a fact and it was intended to help the readers understand the verse better under the context within which i was using it.

pilgrim.1:

Was Paul talking about sacrificial meal in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14?
well, is 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 in context blurring any lines?

And when you quote the above verse always remember to include verse 15 so you don't quote the verse out of context, pastors should also be encourage to copy paul's example as enuciated in verse 15


1 Corinthians 9:13-15:

13 Don’t you realize that those who work in the temple get their meals from the offerings brought to the temple? And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings. 14 In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it. 15 Yet I have never used any of these rights. And I am not writing this to suggest that I want to start now. In fact, I would rather die than lose my right to boast about preaching without charge


As per your little assignment maybe you have to figure it out yourself, my bible used the word permanent property so maybe the levites had access to property but they didn'y have permanent possesion of it. then again you could suggest that the bible is contradicting it self but there are several passages in the bible that says the levites were entitled to tithes cause they were not allowed to own property i would give you two more passages below that emphasize that;

Deuteronomy 12:12:
12 “You must celebrate there in the presence of the Lord your God with your sons and daughters and all your servants. And remember to include the Levites who live in your towns, for they will receive no allotment of land among you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deuteronomy 14:27:
27 And do not neglect the Levites in your town, for they will receive no allotment of land among you.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

The place you falsely claimed i was not quoting the scripture properly because of the insertion "Jesus and his apostles never preached tithe" i put is you trying to cast me in bad light cause i clearly bracketed the insertion to make it known it was an insertion. That aside what i inserted is a fact and it was intended to help the readers understand the verse better under the context within which i was using it.

Please stop whinging. You have been quoting Jeremiah 8 to cast others in bad light and when I pointed out that you were doing the very same thing that you accuse others of, you didn't make any attempt to play fair.

KunleOshob:

And when you quote the above verse always remember to include verse 15 so you don't quote the verse out of context, pastors should also be encourage to copy paul's example as enuciated in verse 15


1 Corinthians 9:13-15:

13 Don’t you realize that those who work in the temple get their meals from the offerings brought to the temple? And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings. 14 In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it. 15 Yet I have never used any of these rights. And I am not writing this to suggest that I want to start now. In fact, I would rather die than lose my right to boast about preaching without charge

I asked questions on 1 Corinthians 9:13-14; the fact was on those two verses, not on verse 15. The Lord did not ordain verse 15 for paul or anyone else; rather it was what were spoken about in verses 13-14 that the Lord ordained.

KunleOshob:

As per your little assignment maybe you have to figure it out yourself, my bible used the word permanent property so maybe the levites had access to property but they didn'y have permanent possesion of it.

I can't believe you came back with exactly the answer I anticipated you would - "you have to figure it out yourself" - that is what people often say when they make statements that are not carefully examined for balance. You did not use any qualifiers when you initially said:

                   'God ordained tithing for the levites as compensation for
                    their not being allowed to own property as clearly stated
                    in numbers 18:23-24.'

Are we to come back now and re-edit your statement for you to read that God meant "permanent property"? The point is not so much whether the property was permanent or temporary - your point was rather that they were not 'allowed to own property', abi?
                   

KunleOshob:

then again you could suggest that the bible is contradicting it self but there are several passages in the bible that says the levites were entitled to tithes cause they were not allowed to own property

Lol, you're really evading your own argument. Have I ever argued any "contradiction" between both passages? I asked you pointedly a question based on your assertion; and I observed a simple thing:

               'But hang on a minute: is that all there is about the Levites?'

I'm quite aware of the coherence; but I wanted you to help yourself before drawing any unbalanced conclusions because anti-tithers often argue that Levites were never allowed to own property and that is the only thing they see on the issue. For that reason, I asked: is that all there is about the Levites?

KunleOshob:

i would give you two more passages below that emphasize that;

Deuteronomy 12:12:
12 “You must celebrate there in the presence of the Lord your God with your sons and daughters and all your servants. And remember to include the Levites who live in your towns, for they will receive no allotment of land among you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deuteronomy 14:27:
27 And do not neglect the Levites in your town, for they will receive no allotment of land among you.

Are you done? if you want more than those two, I shall supply them:

[list]Deuteronomy 10:9 -
      Wherefore Levi hath no part nor inheritance with his brethren;
       the LORD is his inheritance, according as the LORD thy God
       promised him.[/list]

[list]Deuteronomy 18:1 -
      The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi,
      shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel:
      they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire,
      and his inheritance.[/list]

See also Joshua 13:33 and several other references.


After all this, you still did not have anything to say about the simple assignment? No, I don't see a contradition between those verses, and it would be obvious as soon as you look carefully before making flat statements. May I look forward to your kind attempts to draw a coherence between them, or you'd just like to leave it at the fact you didn't answer the question? I'm sure you could do better than the terse "figure it out yourself", yes?

Cheers.