Ihuomadinihu:

Those civilizations are not considered 'black' African civilization. They are more related to North African and Berber populations racially. You don't only need to redefine Subsaharan but also the word Negro.

Please, name those civilizations you are talking about. I just want to make sure we are on the same page, because I get the feeling that we are having very different and confusing arguments here.

Ihuomadinihu:

Those civilizations are not considered 'black' African civilization. They are more related to North African and Berber populations racially. You don't only need to redefine Subsaharan but also the word Negro.

You digress.

The civilizations are black and African civilizations. The Songhai are a Nilo-Saharan people, the Ful6e Fulani are not Arab or Berber, we are a Sudano -Senegambian people.

You are too worried about how whites define things, when in reality all those civilizations are black. Arab and Berber are very different groups of people. Many Berbers and Arabs are also black. If you don't believe that, you can Google that, however none of the great empires of Mali were Berber. They were always either Fulani, Mande, or Songhai/Zarmawa.

Even this white guy acknowledges it was "A great African civilization deep in the Sahara desert" those are his words:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTLcQsobtG0

So this is also to show you that not all whites are of similar/racist mindset.

Wulfruna:


I think she wants us to override geographical reasoning and just call them subsaharan, because according to her 'saharan' and 'subsaharan' are not really geographical terms per se, but racial terms.

Saharan = Arab/Berber

Subsaharan = 'Negroid'

Saharan is Negriod/Berber/Tuareg and Arabic Influenced. Africa may be diverse but that doesn't mean i see myself related Khoisans or Berbers of the Sahara. *different classification of blacks.

Ihuomadinihu:

The presence of the white/Arabic elements are pointers that racially there are different types of blacks,it doesn't remove the fact that they are Africans.

What white elements? Whites have nothing to do with Saharan civilizations.

Also you can't put Arabic/White together. I know that Arabs in the Gulf/Middle-East would disagree, but I would say Arabs are more black than white. As aforementioned, Arabic is an Afro-Asiatic language (Just like Hausa, Ngas, Somali, Amharic, Tamasheq, etc.). Afro-Asiatic languages originated in Africa and no where else. So whites have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with Afro-Asiatic languages. These languages are not European.

Fulaman198:


You digress.

The civilizations are black and African civilizations. The Songhai are a Nilo-Saharan people, the Ful6e Fulani are not Arab or Berber, we are a Sudano -Senegambian people.

You are too worried about how whites define things, when in reality all those civilizations are black. Arab and Berber are very different groups of people. Many Berbers and Arabs are also black. If you don't believe that, you can Google that, however none of the great empires of Mali were Berber. They were always either Fulani, Mande, or Songhai/Zarmawa.

Even this white guy acknowledges it was "A great African civilization deep in the Sahara desert" those are his words:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTLcQsobtG0

So this is also to show you that not all whites are of similar/racist mindset.

My argument is that these blacks are different from the ones that reside in Igboland or Benin. They are people that have come in contact with non 'black' people over the years. I never said they aren't Africans.

Ihuomadinihu:

My argument are that these blacks are different from the ones that reside in Igboland or Benin. They are people that have come in contact with non 'black' people over the years. I never said they aren't Africans.

Berbers are black.....(true Berbers are black, those that speak the Berber language, practise it's culture, etc.)

Arabs can be black too as well, though those living in the gulf are neither black or white.

Are you going to tell me that these Arabs are white?

https://www.google.com/search?q=baggara+arabs&rlz=1C1MSNA_enUS660US660&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=945&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIo4Pfl7OuyAIVii2ICh03kwlO

There are plenty more Arab groups like that.

Please I only ask that you wipe your mind of these Westernised beliefs.

Fulaman198:


What white elements? Whites have nothing to do with Saharan civilizations.

Also you can't put Arabic/White together. I know that Arabs in the Gulf/Middle-East would disagree, but I would say Arabs are more black than white. As aforementioned, Arabic is an Afro-Asiatic language (Just like Hausa, Ngas, Somali, Amharic, Tamasheq, etc.). Afro-Asiatic languages originated in Africa and no where else. So whites have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with Afro-Asiatic languages. These languages are not European.

She brought in the white element,so lecture her.

Ihuomadinihu:

Saharan is Negriod/Berber/Tuareg and Arabic Influenced. Africa may be diverse but that doesn't mean i see myself related Khoisans or Berbers of the Sahara. *different classification of blacks.

This discussion is blowing up. It was and legitimately is a geography issue. This race thing that you've introduced will only end up confusing even yourself.
I decide to highlight the word 'Tuareg' in this post, because there is an interesting thing I want to bring to your attention concerning 'Tuareg' and 'Timbuktu'.

Are you aware that Timbuktu was originally founded by Tuaregs? Before the Mande dynasty of Mali gained control of it and transformed it into the famous city it became?

So legitimately, Timbuktu stands on Tuareg land. You are willing to classify the people ad Saharan, but want to classify their native territory differently? How does that make sense.

This is a simple issue that can be settled by acknowledging that 'Saharan' and 'subsaharan' are geographic terms independent of racial connotations.

Fulaman198:


Berbers are black.....

Arabs can be black too as well, though those living in the gulf are neither black or white.

Are you going to tell me that these Arabs are white?

https://www.google.com/search?q=baggara+arabs&rlz=1C1MSNA_enUS660US660&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=945&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIo4Pfl7OuyAIVii2ICh03kwlO

There are plenty more Arab groups like that.

Please I only ask that you wipe your mind of these Westernised beliefs.

There is nothing like Westernized view here. Even the layman on the streets know that Igbo people are different from Fulani. Whether you want to be accept it or not, the people above Sub saharan Africa are not classified as Negro. It's that simple.

Ihuomadinihu:

There is nothing like Westernized view here. Even the layman on the streets know that Igbo people are different from Fulani. Whether you want to be accept it or not, the people above Sub saharan Africa are not classified as Negro. It's that simple.

I'm definitely not a white man though loll

Again, not classified as negro by whom? Whites?

Wulfruna:


This discussion is blowing up. It was and legitimately is a geography issue. This race thing that you've introduced will only end up confusing even yourself.
I decide to highlight the word 'Tuareg' in this post, because there is an interesting thing I want to bring to your attention concerning 'Tuareg' and 'Timbuktu'.

Are you aware that Timbuktu was originally founded by Tuaregs? Before the Mande dynasty of Mali gained control of it and transformed it into the famous city it became?

So legitimately, Timbuktu stands on Tuareg land. You are willing to classify the people ad Saharan, but want to classify their native territory differently? How does that make sense.

This is a simple issue that can be settled by acknowledging that 'Saharan' and 'subsaharan' are geographic terms independent of racial connotations.

What is there to acknowledge again? Subsahara and Saharan are both in Africa but are populated by different people nonetheless.

Fulaman198:


I'm definitely not a white man though loll

I'm not either, nor am i Saharan, Nilotic or Khoisan. All Africans different history.

Ihuomadinihu:

I'm not either, nor am i Saharan, Nilotic or Khoisan. All Africans different history.

All Africans and black.

It's like with Europeans:

You have Slavic/Eastern European, Latin, and Anglo-Saxon/Nordic/Northern European. They are all white

Ihuomadinihu:

She brought in the white element,so lecture her.

I didn't bring in any white element as far as the Sahara is concerned. This is another indication that you don't understand what other people have been saying on this thread.

First there is a reason I put 'white' and 'whitish' elements in inverted commas in that comment.

Second, I was referring to the Mediterranean North African Berbers who are clearly more 'white'-looking (inverted commas again) than most people you will meet in the Sahara in Mali or Niger.

Again i'll repeat: this discussion is irrelevantly veering into issues that are unrelated to the onus of this discussion, which are:

1. Timbuktu is in the Sahara, and therefore is a Saharan city.

2. The words 'Sahara and 'Sunsaharan' do not have racial meanings and are purely geographical terms.

Any other issues outside these are superfluous lengthening of what should be an open-and-shut case.

Wulfruna:


I didn't bring in any white element as far as the Sahara is concerned. This is another indication that you don't understand what other people have been saying on this thread.

First there is a reason I put 'white' and 'whitish' elements in inverted commas in that comment.

Second, I was referring to the North African Berbers who are clearly more 'white' (inverted commas again) than most people you will meet in the Sahara in Mali or Niger.

Again i'll repeat: this discussion is irrelevant lying veering into issues that are unrelated to the onus of this discussion, which are:

1. Timbuktu is in the Sahara, and therefore is a Saharan city.

2. The words 'Sahara and 'Sunsaharan' do not have racial meanings and are purely geographical terms.

Any other issues outside these are superfluous lengthening of what should be an open-and-shut case.

Geographical terms doesn't negate the fact that both regions are populated by people that have distinct features and history. Am so done with this argument!

Fulaman198:


All Africans and black.

It's like with Europeans:

You have Slavic/Eastern European, Latin, and Anglo-Saxon/Nordic/Northern European. They are all white

Same way you have Southern Indians and Southern Europeans that are not all white. Let me apply that statement to Africa.
Anyway,a Northern history Prof. on NTA said there are Fulani pagans. How true is that?

Ihuomadinihu:

Same way you have Southern Indians and Southern Europeans that are not all white. Let me apply that statement to Africa.
Anyway,a Northern history Prof. On NTA said there are Fulani pagans. How true is that?

I wouldn't politely call them Pagan, he was referring to the Nomadic Fulani (the Wodaabe/Mbororo'en) who don't practise Islam (they are non-practising Muslims). A lot of them practise interesting things like the Gerewol which is a ceremony of love making where women choose a man based on his physical attributes to mate with for one night.

Wulfruna:


I didn't bring in any white element as far as the Sahara is concerned. This is another indication that you don't understand what other people have been saying on this thread.

First there is a reason I put 'white' and 'whitish' elements in inverted commas in that comment.

Second, I was referring to the Mediterranean North African Berbers who are clearly more 'white'-looking (inverted commas again) than most people you will meet in the Sahara in Mali or Niger.

Again i'll repeat: this discussion is irrelevantly veering into issues that are unrelated to the onus of this discussion, which are:

1. Timbuktu is in the Sahara, and therefore is a Saharan city.

2. The words 'Sahara and 'Sunsaharan' do not have racial meanings and are purely geographical terms.

Any other issues outside these are superfluous lengthening of what should be an open-and-shut case.

Correct and those so called 'Berbers' near the Mediterranean are indeed mixed (I don't consider them Berber). A lot of them have Turkish, Roman and Greek blood due to their close proximity to the Mediterranean (they live right on the Mediterranean coast so they have come in contact with whites for millenia). They typically can only speak Arabic and French only and only have a hint of Berber blood.

Whereas the Berbers living in the Sahara and in the Mountains are truly black.

Fulaman198:


I wouldn't politely call them Pagan, he was referring to the Nomadic Fulani (the Wodaabe/Mbororo'en) who don't practise Islam (they are non-practising Muslims). A lot of them practise interesting things like the Gerewol which is a ceremony of love making where women choose a man based on his physical attributes to mate with for one night.

I see. But they must have been practicing something before they encountered Islam?

Ihuomadinihu:

Geographical terms doesn't negate the fact that both regions are populated by people that have distinct features. Am so done with this argument!

Come back, please. I have one more question, or two. Why are you so hung up on looks?

What triggered this whole debate was the statement that Timbuktu is geographically Saharan, and not sub-Saharan. You countered and said that it was sub-Saharan and not Saharan. Then you started talking about looks - which has nothing to do with the original debate - which was purely a matter of geography.

Really, the way you argue is confounding. I've literally never had any experience like this.

Let me please take you back to the original debate: Do you still think that, despite what the reality is, Timbuktu is a sub-Saharan city?

Wulfruna:


Come back, please. I have one more question, or two. Why are you so hung up on looks?

What triggered this whole debate was the statement that Timbuktu is geographically Saharan, and not sub-Saharan. You countered and said that it was sub-Saharan and not Saharan. Then you started talking about looks - which has nothing to do with the original debate - which was purely a matter of geography.

Really, the way you argue is confounding. I've literally never had any experience like this.

Let me please take you back to the original debate: Do you still think that, despite what the reality is, Timbuktu is a sub-Saharan city?

Lol,if you followed my arguments you would have realized that i agreed that Timbuktu was a Southern Saharan city. That has been concluded. You were probably hanging onto other issues which am not aware of. After that we argued about the definition of Black and Negro in Africa. You didn't pick any of these? Lastly,we argued about the classification of 'blacks' in Africa which is plain to a layman. Why are you drawing me to a fresh ridiculous argument?
When you argue with people,learn how to pick up vibes and responses of your co debators.

Ihuomadinihu:

Lol,if you followed my arguments you would have realized that i agreed that Timbuktu was a Southern Saharan city. That has been concluded. You were probably hanging onto other issues which am not aware of. After that we argued about the definition of Black and Negro in Africa. You didn't pick any of these? Lastly,we argued about the classification of 'blacks' in Africa which is plain to a layman. Why are you drawing me to a fresh ridiculous argument?
When you argue with people,learn how to pick up vibes and responses of your co debators.

No, you never agreed. If you did you made it so cryptic that I'm sure no one here picked up on it.

Anyway, like you, my work here is done. K'odi.

Ladies,

As much as i'm enjoying both of you going back and forth with your great debate, don't you both have more important things to be doing like putting your feet on Fulaman's face (oops I mistype ).

But in any case, you both have great opinions and I think that in essence you are both trying to say the same thing though in different ways.

Ihuomadinihu:

I see. But they must have been practicing something before they encountered Islam?

Yeah correct, Fulani people had their own indigenous religion before Islam. I would link the documentary video here, but I'm not too sure how well you understand a mixture of both Fulfulde and French.

tonychristopher:


Do we have any scholarly evidences to back this bogus claim

There is a plethora of work on Benin history that you can always avail yourself of. It is not worth my while to teach you Benin history. Your denial of Benin historical exploits does not change the fact and has absolutely no bearing on the Edos. Instead of acknowledging and being proud of a neighbouring ethnic group history, jealousy and hatred will blind you and cause you to attempt to revise it. In your bigoted brain, if the Igbos did not do it, it shouldn't be any other Nigerian people. Ethiopia! Why not Somalia?

Fulaman198:
Ladies,

As much as i'm enjoying both of you going back and forth with your great debate, don't you both have more important things to be doing like putting your feet on Fulaman's face (oops I mistype ).

But in any case, you both have great opinions and I think that in essence you are both trying to say the same thing though in different ways.

bokohalal:

There is a plethora of work on Benin history that you can always avail yourself of. It is not worth my while to teach you Benin history. Your denial of Benin historical exploits does not change the fact and has absolutely no bearing on the Edos. Instead of acknowledging and being proud of a neighbouring ethnic group history, jealousy and hatred will blind you and cause you to attempt to revise it. In your bigoted brain, if the Igbos did not do it, it shouldn't be any other Nigerian people. Ethiopia! Why not Somalia?

The problem is not who met the white men first(it's even more ridiculous if you think it's an achievement). The issue is the assumption that Igbos were copying their neigbours in terms of dressing etc. It's very clear who has copied who in Southern Nigeria. Going back to the basis, Igbos will still tie their double wrapper,others will not.

Ihuomadinihu:

The problem is not who met the white men first(it's even more ridiculous if you think it's an achievement). The issue is the assumption that Igbos were copying their neigbours in terms of dressing etc. It's very clear who has copied who in Southern Nigeria. Going back to the basis, Igbos will still tie their double wrapper,others will not.

If it isn't an achievement why is tonychristopher awarding it to to Songhai or anywhere else but Benin?
It might interest you to know that a particular Bini drum is said to have originated from Idah (Igalla). A secret society is from Ijaw. Many Bini gods are actually from Yorubaland. Ikegobo is Igbo.Some Bini food are said to be Urhobo's. Not to mention the dressing, plants and animals and new words into Bini language that has changed it from other Edo languages. An autochthonous development is impossible. Great civilisations have borrowed, whole or altered, ideas and customs from neighbouring groups or interaction with complete outsiders,such as Europeans. There is nothing to feel inferior or superior about in any society. The Russian alphabet was given to it by a Greek priest. The British have borrowed practically everything from around the world.

bokohalal:

If it isn't an achievement why is tonychristopher awarding it to to Songhai or anywhere else but Benin?
It might interest you to know that a particular Bini drum is said to have originated from Idah (Igalla). A secret society is from Ijaw. Many Bini gods are actually from Yorubaland. Ikegobo is Igbo.Some Bini food are said to be Urhobo's. Not to mention the dressing, plants and animals and new words into Bini language that has changed it from other Edo languages. An autochtonous development is impossible. Great civilisations have borrowed, whole or altered, ideas and customs from neighbouring groups or interaction with complete outsiders,such as Europens. There is nothing to feel inferior or superior about in any society. The Russian alphabet was given to it by a Greek priest. The British have borrowed practically everything from around the world.

I know all that. You should blame the Op for stating what is not right,both cultures have distinct way of dressing,goverment and traditions inclusive. For the benefit of emphasis, certain Igbo cultures have been copied not the other way round.
Meeting the white man is an achievement? I don't understand the argument between you and Tony,but meeting the white men isn't any achievement.

Fulaman198:
Ladies,

As much as i'm enjoying both of you going back and forth with your great debate, don't you both have more important things to be doing like putting your feet on Fulaman's face (oops I mistype ).

But in any case, you both have great opinions and I think that in essence you are both trying to say the same thing though in different ways.

Fulaman you don start with all these your poem, you make me to remember that somalian guy Ajuran

Ihuomadinihu:

I know all that. You should blame the Op for stating what is not right,both cultures have distinct way of dressing,goverment and traditions inclusive. For the benefit of emphasis, certain Igbo cultures have been copied not the other way round.
Meeting the white man is an achievement? I don't understand the argument between you and Tony,but meeting the white men isn't any achievement.

The primary advantage of early encounter with Europeans was in the area of trade and warfare. The natives monopolized the distribution of European goods into the interior and had the firepower to back it up and to expand her borders.
Modern Igbo bead fashion is Edo-influenced.
Nsibidi is from Akwa-Ibom
Two tie wrapper with George material is from Itsekiri and Urhobo.
Many Igbo groups have adopted the Bini traditional system of government. Some even bear the ADA!

bokohalal:

The primary advantage of early encounter with Europeans was in the area of trade and warfare. The natives monopolized the distribution of European goods into the interior and had the firepower to back it up and to expand her borders.
Modern Igbo bead fashion is Edo-influenced.
Nsibidi is from Akwa-Ibom
Two tie wrapper with George material is from Itsekiri and Urhobo.
Many Igbo groups have adopted the Bini traditional system of government. Some even bear the ADA!

Just wanted to point out the black man's mentality issue in arguments like this. There isn't any achievement in meeting White people,that is an inferiority complex. The achievement lies in commerce and the fact that the white men established diplomatic relations with Benin and not that you met the white men first,they could have met you and walked away.
Now, there is a difference between Igbo and Edo fashion beards,there is nothing similar about it. Coral beads are trade beads and Igbos had beads way before the modern Coral beads. For people that want to adhere to Igbo traditions they wear less beads. In the past, Igbo women used all sorts of things on their hair, from feathers, Sticks, to Mother of pearl buttons, Combs, and Beads. It's the modern brides that wear something that looks like a Cap art work which is different from Okuku Edo hairstyle.
There is no relationship between the way Edo and Igbo use beads.
Am not going to use strings of beads on my hair and somebody suddenly calls it Edo style.
Sorry!