Ubenedictus:
I GUESS I LEARNT SOMETHING TODAY

Hallo

cc sportsmaster

My continuation after the hiatus at https://www.nairaland.com/2699069/tongues-fundamental-flaw-pentecostalism/1#39591273

People, apart from just reading and only studying the bible, we ought to hearken to the prompting of the Holy Spirit to also diverge into history books in order to get clearer pictures

Please, I beg una all, to go catch up or read on the history of the biblical City of Corinth, it makes it easy to see and then understand the prevailing cultural context , out which the bible passage came from and what necessitated writing the letter in the manner it was penned

Out of curiousty, I like to know if any of the thread's readership, if any of those following the thread
or if any, from those who have so far been reading this thread, knew that the biblical City of Corinth, was otherwise known as Sin City?
Well this particular other name for the biblical City of Corinth, says it all, and to some degree hints or explains why Paul had to write the 2 Corinthians 6 chapter letter to the Corinthians

The biblical City of Corinth was that messed up, it was so much that bad, that without mincing words, the name ''Corinth'', became a synonym for sleaze

What of Diana, otherwise known as Artemis by the Greeks?
Anyone know about Diana and the onslaught of Diana's temple priestesses on the biblical City of Corinth?

I intentionally and fleetingly introduced the above immediate two lines because of some of my beloved brothers here on this thread like names-not-mentioned-as-they-know-themselves,
who due to particular verses such as Jeremiah 8:8 and 2 Peter 3:16 have misunderstood and misinterpreted 1 Timothy 2:12 in Paul's letters
and from which forgetting women such as Lydia, Priscilla, Nympha and Chloe they have drawn conclusion that God is against women in persuasive, teaching and leadership roles

“How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’?
But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.
- Jeremiah 8:8

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
in which are some things hard to be understood,
which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,
as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2 Peter 3:16

Below is an excerpt, about the biblical City of Corinth, to trigger the taste buds with:

"She had a reputation for commercial prosperity, but she was also a byword for evil living.
The very word korinthiazesthai, to live like a Corinthian, had become a part of the Greek language, and meant to live with drunken and immoral debauchery ...
Aelian, the late Greek writer, tells us that if ever a Corinthian was shown upon the stage in a Greek play he was shown drunk.

The very name Corinth was synonymous with debauchery and there was one source of evil in the city which was known all over the civilized world. Above the isthmus towered the hill of the Acropolis, and on it stood the great temple of Aphrodite, the goddess of love. To that temple there were attached one thousand priestesses who were sacred prostitutes, and in the evenings they descended from the Acropolis and plied their trade upon the streets of Corinth, until it became a Greek proverb, 'It is not every man who can afford a journey to Corinth.'

In addition to these cruder sins, there flourished far more recondite vices, which had come in with the traders and the sailors from the ends of the earth, until Corinth became not only a synonym for wealth and luxury, drunkenness and debauchery, but also for filth." (William Barclay, The Letters To The Corinthians, p. 2-3)

This was an exhortation letter to an easily influenced Corinthian gathering, caught up in the midst of so many traditions, attractions, perversion, glamour, dangers etcetera
A warning letter with recommedations to protect the indwelling temple of God within the Corinthian gathering

Havent got time to go into details, so to cut a long story short, here is the abridged version:
The biblical City of Corinth, is a flourishing, cosmpolitan place with its fair share of vices, hustling and hedonistic
The yorubas, ibos, hausas, ijaws, fulanis, itsekiri, gambaris, benins, edos, people from all over the world, from different parts of the world etcetera were in the biblical City of Corinth
The saints when gathered at Lydia's place, sometimes use to pray, preach, teach or prophecy in their individual languages (i.e. tongues)
The yoruba man will do his thing in yoruba, without any interpretation, leaving everyone else except him understanding what hes just prayed, preached or propheised about
None is the wiser only him, understood what hes just said, the gathering didnt benefit except maybe yoruba brethrens and sis

Ibo kwenu, ndigbo kwenu, ibo man too will get up and do similar. Every one was doing same
The gathering were unrestrained, it was like being in market place, with different languages (i.e. tongues) darting and flying around, so Paul had to step in and rein order in

So Paul in effective, addressing the issue, was saying:
Look I have the gifts of various tongues, as I speak more languages than anyone of you. I speak yorubas, ibos, hausas, ijaws, fulanis, itsekiri, gambaris etcetera
For the sake of peace and orderliness, look when you speak, pray, teach or prophecy in your unknown to others-in-this-gathering yoruba language (i.e. tongue) no one benefits except you.

He further was saying:
See, listen, I Paul, personally would prefer to speak five understandable words to help others than ten thousand words in an unknown language

Paul in 1 Corinthians 14, among other things, time currently isnt allowing elaboration on, was making a determined effort to deal with this peculiar problem of speaking in vernacular
and stamp it out, as the practice only benefits the instigator and not the common good of the gathering

Unintelligible, meaningless and gibberish nonsense as we know and see spouted in gatherings is not what Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 was addressing. Paul couldnt have been talking about unintelligible, meaningless and gibberish nonsense because it is a fraud invented in the 20th century much later and hundreds of years after his death.



Reading about Juanita Bynum a few years ago, typing ‌this above higlighted, similar unintelligible meaningless and gibberish nonsense fraud during a prayer post on Facebook was a real SMH
Tried to perfect a fraud by testing the waters with those gobbledegook

vooks:
And now to a more important point or question for you.
1. What is your reading of the verse?

About glossa
(i.e. read about spoken intelligible language and not about unintelligible meaningless and gibberish nonsense)

vooks:
Is 1 Cor 14:2 talking about paganism complete with a god in it?

No it wasnt
but is an admonition with a view, that all, have a common good, a common benefit, the gathering good, in mind

The instigator of an UNKNOWN tongue (i.e. spoken intelligible unknown language) is energised by the Spirit
but even with God in it, what is the good in it or benefit of it, if it is difficult or impossible for others to understand whatever is being said

Speaking in the gathering's commonwealth language, so all be carried along and be built up is the import of the verse

vooks:
2. Is there ANY merit in some arguments we read here that UNKNOWN tongue is different from tongues?

Yes there is,
because UNKNOWN tongue is not the unintelligible meaningless and gibberish nonsense we know and see spouted in gatherings

UNKNOWN tongue does exactly what it says on the tin, it is an UNKNOWN language indulged into by an instigator lacking consideration for others
Not minding that, apart from him, no one else understands his DIFFERENT and UNKNOWN tongue
This is what Paul is harping on about and not some unintelligible meaningless and gibberish 20th century invention

It is always pitiful watching saints allow themselves to be misled to believe something that is not true
It takes someone to be in a world of fantasy and grand self-delusion to believe that the unintelligible meaningless and gibberish spouted in gatherings is UNKNOWN tongue aka heavenly language

vooks:
And finally
What is 'different tongue(s)' and how does that differ from 'various kinds of tongues'?

'different tongue(s)' means another language
There is no difference between different tongue(s)' and 'various kinds of tongues'
'Different' means another or means other, it has an exact same meaning with 'various kinds'

Thought I briefly say this, incidentally, speaking in different tongue(s)' or 'various kinds of tongues' (i.e. different language) is for the benefit of non believers and not for believers

vooks:
And what is FLS?

It stands for Foreign Language Syndrome, a medically recognised rare condition. Look into it more yourself

WinsomeX:
Muttleylaff, I subscribe to d women should not be leaders/teachers doctrine BC I think scriptures are quite clear about it

Does this subscription extend to the secular setting too
Like when Naija will have her first woman president as Naija's head
like when in 2006 -2007 Virginia Ngozi Etiaba was declared governor of Anambra state
or better still, like now in Taraba state, where Aisha Alhassan is Nigeria's first female governor-elect and the head of Taraba state

WinsomeX:
and many troubles in Christian ministry is much associated with women

Haba. You threw caution to the wind typing this.
In biblical times and even now, many positive things like funding ministries (e.g. Jesus' Paul etcetera) is much associated with women
In biblical times, providing places to gather at is much associated with women (e.g. Chloe, Lydia etcetera)
Exercising faith, breaking the mould, leading to exploits in biblical times is much associated with women
(e.g. Mary accepting Angel Gabriel's message, Mary's act of telling Jesus there is no wine, woman with an issue of blood, the Samaritan woman at the well etcetera)

Many troubles in Christian ministry is much associated with women sic as well as with men
(e.g. Corinthian men getting drunk or over eating during taking Holy Communion, Corinthian man sleeping with his father’s wife, rivalry & boasting among Corinthian men etcetera)

WinsomeX:
For example in 1 Corinthians 14, Paul says women shouldn't teach in church

Context is king, what Paul proffererd in 1 Corinthians 14 wasnt a magic bullet, as Paul also said so many other things about women, like
being not keen on them sporting braided or anything interwoven hair, wearing gold, pearls or expensive clothes

1 Corinthians 14 is a letter to the Corinthians dealing with situation-specific issues prevailing at that time and is not a blanket statement to the whole body of Christ

WinsomeX:
There is a sense in it that the whole Charismatic Confusion in Corinth was associated with women prophets, teachers and tonguers.

These were isolated problems specific to a young and growing baby gathering in a spiritually bankrupt and morally corrupt city

WinsomeX:
Remember also that it was a woman who first spoke in tongues or gibberish in 1900. A woman started the whole Chaos!

Gibberish is gibberish.
Gibberish is not tongues and vice versa
Unintelligible meaningless and gibberish nonsense, as we know and see spouted in gatherings isnt language but is a 20th centuary invention

WinsomeX:
Someone gave a wisdom somewhere: he said that he has learnt from experience that regardless of the argument, Paul always turns out right. And I suspect he's right in this too

Paul is right about the remedy and restraint he proffered to the Corinthians
Fast forwarding to the 21st century, with the Corinthian women spiritually coming of age, Paul's letter will be acknowledging the positions they ought to be taking in teaching and leadership roles

MuttleyLaff:
About glossa
(i.e. read about spoken intelligible language and not about unintelligible meaningless and gibberish nonsense)

No it wasnt
but is an admonition with a view, that all, have a common good, a common benefit, the gathering good, in mind

The instigator of an UNKNOWN tongue (i.e. spoken intelligible unknown language) is energised by the Spirit
but even with God in it, what is the good in it or benefit of it, if it is difficult or impossible for others to understand whatever is being said

Speaking in the gathering's commonwealth language, so all be carried along and be built up is the import of the verse

Yes there is,
because UNKNOWN tongue is not the unintelligible meaningless and gibberish nonsense we know and see spouted in gatherings

UNKNOWN tongue does exactly what it says on the tin, it is an UNKNOWN language indulged into by an instigator lacking consideration for others
Not minding that, apart from him, no one else understands his DIFFERENT and UNKNOWN tongue
This is what Paul is harping on about and not some unintelligible meaningless and gibberish 20th century invention

It is always pitiful watching saints allow themselves to be misled to believe something that is not true
It takes someone to be in a world of fantasy and grand self-delusion to believe that the unintelligible meaningless and gibberish spouted in gatherings is UNKNOWN tongue aka heavenly language

'different tongue(s)' means another language
There is no difference between different tongue(s)' and 'various kinds of tongues'
'Different' means another or means other, it has an exact same meaning with 'various kinds'

Thought I briefly say this, incidentally, speaking in different tongue(s)' or 'various kinds of tongues' (i.e. different language) is for the benefit of non believers and not for believers

It stands for Foreign Language Syndrome, a medically recognised rare condition. Look into it more yourself

Uninterpteted tongues I agree are to be kept private. Unfortunately you are trashing uninterpteted tongues while Paul prescribed praying for interpretation. What if there is no interpretation yet? You stop praying altogether in your tongues?

I notice a subtle promotion of spiritual impotence

vooks:
Uninterpreted tongues I agree are to be kept private.

Good
Why not go the whole stretch and agree that unintelligible meaningless and gibberish nonsense is just what it is, pseudo-gobbledegook

This 20th century pseudo-gobbledegook invention is never interpreted, it hasn't been interpreted, it can't be interpreted

It is not a language to start with, so doesnt fit any category of uninterpreted tongues,

Do not be decieved, it is not heavenly language. It is not angelic language, it is something that is not true
It is a product of a world of fantasy and self-delusion
Anyone after this, wittingly still engaging in the practice, must be suffering from a strong dosage of delusion of grandeur

In social and public gathering, in the absence of interpretation, it is sensible to keep uninterpreted tongues, speech, talk, lecture etctera private

vooks:
Unfortunately you are trashing uninterpteted tongues

I am trashing unintelligible meaningless and gibberish nonsense

vooks:
while Paul prescribed praying for interpretation

I, like Paul, prescribe praying for interpretation of a spoken intelligible unknown language (i.e. spoken intelligible unknown tongue)

vooks:
What if there is no interpretation yet? You stop praying altogether in your tongues?

Yes, until there is an interpretation you pray in the common language the gathering understands

You are in a gathering comprising of like minded people with Igbo, Yoruba, Fulani, Hausa, Edo etcetera backgrounds,
who dont speak nor understand each other's unknown languages (i.e. each others language is unknown to the other),
when it is time to pray, teach or preach, which language in the absence of interpretation, will you speak, pray, teach or preach in?
What language please?

vooks:
I notice a subtle promotion of spiritual impotence

Please care to elaborate what subtle promotion of spiritual impotence means

MuttleyLaff:
Good
Why not go the whole stretch and agree that unintelligible meaningless and gibberish nonsense is just what it is, pseudo-gobbledegook

This 20th century pseudo-gobbledegook invention is never interpreted, it hasn't been interpreted, it can't be interpreted

It is not a language to start with, so doesnt fit any category of uninterpreted tongues,

Do not be decieved, it is not heavenly language. It is not angelic language, it is something that is not true
It is a product of a world of fantasy and self-delusion
Anyone after this, wittingly still engaging in the practice, must be suffering from a strong dosage of delusion of grandeur

In social and public gathering, in the absence of interpretation, it is sensible to keep uninterpreted tongues, speech, talk, lecture etctera private

I am trashing unintelligible meaningless and gibberish nonsense

I, like Paul, prescribe praying for interpretation of a spoken intelligible unknown language (i.e. spoken intelligible unknown tongue)

Yes, until there is an interpretation you pray in the common language the gathering understands

You are in a gathering comprising of like minded people with Igbo, Yoruba, Fulani, Hausa, Edo etcetera backgrounds,
who dont speak nor understand each other's unknown languages (i.e. each others language is unknown to the other),
when it is time to pray, teach or preach, which language in the absence of interpretation, will you speak, pray, teach or preach in?
What language please?

Please care to elaborate what subtle promotion of spiritual impotence means

hello, oga muttleylaff, been a long a while sir. anyway, I've been following the thread. U established that the 'unknown tongues' being spoken in gatherings today is not in the real context the word of God is referring too. Having read 1cor 12,13,14 in NIV its making sense to me(though am sort of scared what version is most relieable sev) and I've asked the Holyspirit to explain more to me. Now, id love to ask, in chapter 13:1 what did Paul mean by '...tongues ... Of angels....'? And what does chapter 14:2 mean by '...no man understandeth him' did all the men had exclusive tongues to the extent that, no man could understand what another was saying? Verse 14 of the same chapter records ' ...my understanding is unfruitful....' a man speaking in a language known to him alone yet his understand is unfruitful or 'unfruitful' stands for something else. Aptly, what does the word of God mean by 'praying ... In the spirit' eyhesians 6:18. God bless u as u make time to reply sir

MizyB:
hello, oga muttleylaff, been a long a while sir. anyway

Ah, my OATT madam sister, I dropped you a passing note already on the other thread. Havent you seen it yet?

MizyB:
I've been following the thread. U established that the 'unknown tongues' being spoken in gatherings today is not in the real context the word of God is referring too.

Paul was talking about a spoken understandable coherent, intelligible meaningful unknown tongue
(i.e. 'unknown tongues' meaning unknown language)

MizyB:
Having read 1 Cor 12,13,14 in NIV its making sense to me (though am sort of scared what version is most reliable sev)

No bible translation or version is 100% reliable
God hasnt given us a spirit of fear but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind (i.e. 2 Timothy 1:7) so there is no excuse to be scared.
Here is what I always do:
I use all available resources and tools, to read the verse(s) in its original render (i.e. how it was written in Hebrew or Greek),
then look at ALL bible translations or versions to see which one properly or closely translated the verse best
I look at words in verses, then check out their meanings and/or etymologies, see how their translations from Hebrew or Greek to English was done
I look into the historical background, cultural setting pertaining to verse(s) to get a grip
I look into those strange idioms and phrases

Below are few links to give leverage:
Showing an example of an original greek rendering:- http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/13-1.htm
An example of multiple bible versions shown at the same time:- http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-1.htm

MizyB:
and I've asked the Holyspirit to explain more to me. Now, id love to ask, in chapter 13:1 what did Paul mean by '...tongues ... Of angels....'?

Without reading meanings into to trying to invent things out of it, it plainly means just was written and nothing untoward
'...tongues ... Of angels....' means '...languages ... Of angels....'
'...tongues ... Of angels....' in 1 Corinthians 13:1, was used as part of a declarative sentence to make a point that if one speaks all the languages of earth and of angels
but didn't love others, the speaking all the languages of earth and of angels would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
The argument in the verse, is about love, consideration for others and not self
If one speaks all the languages of earth and of angels, without interpretation, such person lacks love, such lacks consideration of others, such is only concerned about the personal benefit or personal edification
Dont let '...tongues ... Of angels....' throw you off course the core and vital message in 1 Corinthians 13:1

MizyB:
And what does chapter 14:2 mean by '...no man understandeth him' did all the men had exclusive tongues to the extent that, no man could understand what another was saying?

This 1 Corinthians 14:2 version below, is the closest rendering to the original text

For if you have the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking only to God, since people won't be able to understand you.
You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious.
- 1 Corinthians 14:2

Compared with other versions, 1 Corinthians 14:2 becomes self explanatory, when the above version is read

MizyB:
Verse 14 of the same chapter records ' ...my understanding is unfruitful....' a man speaking in a language known to him alone yet his understand is unfruitful or 'unfruitful' stands for something else.

When an Ibo recites a prayer in a Yoruba language he doesnt know or understand
Though he prayed in a Yoruba tongue, and in the spirit he prayed along too,
the fact remains that, because he doesnt understand Yoruba language, he didn't know what he said in that Yoruba prayer.

Paul was saying:
What was the point of the Ibo praying in a Yoruba language and in the spirit, without understanding what he just prayed in the Yoruba language? (i.e. the mind is unfruitful)

He further said:
Listen, when I pray in the spirit, I pray with my mind also. I sing in the spirit and I will sing in the mind also
He meant that whenever you talk, preach, teach, sing etcetera, do them all with understanding what you are talking, preaching, teaching, singing etctera
because when you are done, how will others be in agreement with you since they dont or wouldnt know what you've all along been saying

MizyB:
Aptly, what does the word of God mean by 'praying ... In the spirit' Ephesians 6:18. God bless u as u make time to reply sir

This is a profound question
Verses, like John 3:8, John 4:24 and Romans 8:26, flashed through my mind when about to respond to this
The Spirit is free, it is like a wind, we dont see it, we cant touch it but we can sense it, we can hear it
It moves, one minute it is quiet and still, next minute it can be howling and noisily slammimg doors shut

God is a Spirit, we pray in the spirit to associate oneself with what is happening or about to happen in the Spirit's, God's great/​grand scheme of things
When we pray in the spirit, we literally are positioning our satellite dish or antenna for good and maximum signal strength to get sharp pictures and/or clear broadcasts from God

Without tuning in, (i.e. pray in the spirit) distortions, bad reception, ugly feedbacks, clashing stations etcetera will be the end product

MutleyLaff
For some reasons I can't reply to individual posts.

Any language you don't understand won't make sense. Had you been there on Pentecost and you knew NONE of those languages, it would have been gibberish.

How do you prove what is unintelligible is a human language while you can't understand nothing in the first place?

If you have ought against public uninterpteted tongues, simply say so. Using long unnecessary words to echo Paul is waste of space

MuttleyLaff:
Ah, my OATT madam sister, I dropped you a passing note already on the other thread. Havent you seen it yet?

no sir, i haven't. Thank you for replying sir.


So praying in the spirit is connecting to the spirit of God, uttering tongues that is known to us?

Romans 8:26, the Holyspirit's intercession happens when? Is it when we pray alone or when we do something that resonates in the spirit?? i grab that the Holyspirit utters words which we cannot utter thereby nullifying the stuff spoken in gatherings today as the utterance of the Holyspirit. But since theres a language of angels, is that what we speak in gatherings today, only without interpretations?

Hmnn