Its a job, but like prostitution, there are always choices.

y choose the army if you have a "safer" choice then.

does this not make u an hypocrite?

filing a complaint is hypocrisy? are you ok.

another meaningless semantic. war is war. a soldier is a soldier. so?

aww poor noetic.

I thought Christians are supposed to be as Christ like as possible.  

You have to admit being a member of the armed forces you to make tough choices

Is it possible to be a soldier and not go to war when called upon?

can the atomic bomb or carpet bombing be justifiable by a Christian?

oyb:

maybe i should rename the thread - can a christian engage in warfare

[b]osisi, these soldiers from the time you are referencing to be honest seem more like officers of the peace, than people chraged with advancing their nations interests.[/b]what is murder in war


is there anything in the New Testament that justifies going to war with another nation/entity?

From your favorite place

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centurion

In the Roman infantry, centurions initially commanded a centuria or "century" of 100 men, then 60 and finally 80. During the Imperial era Centurions gradually rose in seniority in their cohort, commanding centuries with higher precedence, until commanding the senior century and therefore the whole cohort. The very best centurions were then promoted to become centurions in the First Cohort, called Primi Ordines, commanding one of the ten centuries and also taking on a staff role. The most senior centurion of the legion was the 'Primus Pilus who commanded the first century.

All centurions, however senior, had their own allocated century.

The Primus Pilus was so called because his own century was the first file (primus pilus) of the first (rightmost) cohort. Only eight officers in a fully officered legion outranked the Primus Pilus: The legate (legatus legionis), commanding the legion; the senior tribune (tribunus laticlavus), second-in-command of the legion; the Camp Prefect (praefectus castrorum); and the five other tribunes (tribuni angusticlavii) who apparently served as senior staff officers to the legate with a rank roughly eqivalent to a modern colonel.

In comparison to a modern military organization, centurions covered a whole range of ranks. Ordinary century commanders would be equivalent to a modern army lieutenants or captains. Mid-level centurions commanding centuries are possibly roughly equivalent in grade level to modern majors with the senior centurions leading cohorts equivalent to lieutenant colonels. The Primus Pilus with his senior command (commanding the first cohort) and his staff role (as an advisor to the legate and his tribunes) might be considered equivalent to a modern colonel.

Centurions often suffered heavy casualties in battle, generally fighting alongside the legionaries they commanded. They usually led from the front, occupying a position at the front right of the century formation. They led and inspired their men by example. They also sought to display the skill and courage that got them to their rank in the first place. It is for these reasons that they often suffered a disproportionate number of casualties.
Below the centurions were the optiones, seconds-in-command of centuries.

Now do you think they are officers of the peace still?

oyb looks like one of you got mad and ran to the admin to lock our former thread
cry babies

yea. . . .that is hillarious. . . muslim and their hypocrisy.

noetic2:

yea. . . .that is hillarious. . . muslim and their hypocrisy.

na today?

osisi,
why are you derailing the thread

thats not the Christian way is it?

there is nothing in what you posted indicating that the centurions were devout Christians

if my memory serves me right, romans persecuted christians . so how did roman soldiers suddenly become christains


is there anything in the new testament that sanctions warfare?

none of the people you referenced were engaged in what soldier are intended to do - kill

okay

so does the new testament sanction warfare?
if it does
what is its stand on the following :

rules of engagement
treason
sdition
session
preemption
dealing with hostile nations

by Jesus of Nazareth[b][/b]


Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. Woe unto you that are full now, for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now, for ye shall mourn and weep. Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you, for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Ye are the salt of the earth. But if the salt have lost its savour, wherewith shall it again be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot by men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a lampstand; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you: till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least of these commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, "thou shalt not kill, and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of judgment". But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of judgment, and whosoever shall abuse his brother, shall be in danger of the council. But whosoever shall say "Thou fool", shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way. First be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him, lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Ye have heard that it was said "thou shalt not commit adultery". But I say unto you that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye causeth thee to offend, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

And if thy right hand causeth thee to offend, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement. But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Again, ye have heard that it hath been said to them of old time, thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths. But I say unto you: swear not at all, neither by heaven, for it is God's throne, nor by the Earth, for it is his footstool, neither by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Ye have heard that it hath been said "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth". But I say unto you that ye resist not him that is evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, pray for them that persecute you, that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven, for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the tax-gatherers the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the Gentiles so? And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what gain have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Most High: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Take heed that ye do not your good works before men, to be seen of them, otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth, that thine alms may be in secret, and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee.

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy inner chamber, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee. And when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do, for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them, for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

After this manner therefore pray ye:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.

And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance, for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face that thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee.

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. The lamp of the body is the eye; if therefore thine eye be sound, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be not sound, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other, or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and riches. Therefore I say unto you, Be not concerned for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Behold the fowls of the air, for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not of much more value than they? Which of you by being concerned can add one hour to his life?

And why are ye concerned for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Therefore be not concerned, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Have therefore no concern for the morrow: for the morrow shall have concern for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the trouble thereof. Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom .38 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how canst thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh findeth, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. But strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand, and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.

what did Jesus have to say about warfare?

how can you reconcile the bolded portions with military doctrine 

how does what Jesus had to say sanction the crusades?

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

based on this, the proper Christian reaction the Muslim invasion would have been to accept it as a one way ticket to heaven

so what exactly is the NT justification for the crusades ? what did Jesus have to say about hostile nation states ?

i think we would all appreciate it if we could stay on point

Christians fear not,afterall jesus said he'll come down with his mighty army in armageddon. If he can have an army so can you

"But I say unto you that ye resist not him that is evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also."

Why is it that Christians NEVER obey this command despite the fact that it came from Jesus himself?

toneyb:

Why is it that Christians NEVER obey this command despite the fact that it came from Jesus himself?

Who says Christians NEVER obey that command? Have you met ALL Christians and can say you know for sure that they don't NEVER obey that command?

pilgrim.1:

Who says Christians NEVER obey that command? Have you met ALL Christians and can say you know for sure that they don't NEVER obey that command?

I have never meet all Christians, but I have never meet any that obeys that command. If Christians obey that injunction, it will be seen. Every body knows that Christians go to church and give their offerings in church there is evidence for that.

Christians on the average do not marry more than one wife, there is evidence for that too, There is no evidence to show that Christians turn the other cheek when some one smites them or  give out their coat when some one sues them for the cloak. If they do it will be seen.

toneyb:

I have never meet all Christians, but I have never meet any that obeys that command. If Christians obey that injunction, it will be seen. Every body knows that Christians go to church and give their offerings in church there is evidence for that.

Okay, good to kow you haven't met every Christian - I used to think like you. But there are some that I've encountered who obey that command, and do so independent of whether anyone gives offering or not. That command has nothing to do with anyone giving offerings.

toneyb:
Christians on the average do not marry more than one wife, there is evidence for that too, There is no evidence to show that Christians turn the other cheek when some one smites them or give out their coat when some one sues them for the cloak. If they do it will be seen.

You only know those you speak about; that in itself does not mean you have to broaden it to mean that "there is no evidence" to show what you have not encountered.

pilgrim.1:

Okay, good to kow you haven't met every Christian - I used to think like you. But there are some that I've encountered who obey that command, and do so independent of whether anyone gives offering or not. That command has nothing to do with anyone giving offerings.

You only know those you speak about; that in itself does not mean you have to broaden it to mean that "there is no evidence" to show what you have not encountered.

We are going round and round in a circle , but let me say this, Any body that has meet a Christians knows that the Christian follows the biblical injunction of paying his offering when he goes to church. Every body sees it and know that act or behavior is strongly associated with Christianity. People see Christians praying, because Christians do that all the time because they have been commanded to do that in the bible, Every body that knows Christianity knows that Christians pray. Prayer is a behavior that people know or associate Christians with.

Every body that knows Christianity knows that Christians worship their god through songs and dancing, it is a biblical injunction that Christians abide by the world over. Baptism is another common biblical injunction that Christians abide by. It is very common, Christians engage in it all over the place. Non Christians know that Christians do it and that behavior is associated with Christianity. It is also a biblical injunction that Christians abide by the world over. NO body will say that Christians abide by the injunction of turning the other cheek when some one smites them. Christians simply do not follow that injunction. Christian do not give out their coat when some one sues them for the cloak, if they do it will be seen and people will know them for that kind of behavior. But no they don't, Christians do not behave that way. They do not obey that injunction.

toneyb:

We are going round and round in a circle , but let me say this, Any body that has meet a Christians knows that the Christian follows the biblical injunction of paying his offering when he goes to church. Every body sees it and know that act or behavior is strongly associated with Christianity. People see Christians praying, because Christians do that all the time because they have been commanded to do that in the bible, Every body that knows Christianity knows that Christians pray. Prayer is a behavior that people know or associate Christians with.

I'm sorry I didn't join your spinning around. I simply wanted to know why you deviated with the interpolation of "offering". . unless you're trying to make them the same thing.

toneyb:

Every body that knows Christianity knows that Christians worship their God through songs and dancing, it is a biblical injunction that Christians abide by the world over. Baptism is another common biblical injunction that Christians abide by. It is very common, Christians engage in it all over the place. Non Christians know that Christians do it and that behavior is associated with Christianity. It is also a biblical injunction that Christians abide by the world over. NO body will say that Christians abide by the injunction of turning the other cheek when some one smites them. Christians simply do not follow that injunction. Christian do not give out their coat when some one sues them for the cloak, if they do it will be seen and people will know them for that kind of behavior. But no they don't, Christians do not behave that way. They do not obey that injunction.

Assumptions are very dangerous, you know. I know some Christian groups that do not make a rule of baptizing people in order to particpate in their services; whereas others emphasize on it. In the same way, there are Christians who obey the command in your initial post - and others which do not care that much as to make it a part of their lives.

we seem to be going offtopic

In the same way, there are Christians who obey the command in your initial post - and others which do not care that much as to make it a part of their lives.

Can you be a true Christian if you choose what commands to follow 

recently CAN was demanding a Gun bill .

i think though i'm not sure, the NRA has a strong Christian affliation . at least charlton heston was a devout Christian .

is this in line with Jesus teachings and Christian Doctrine or have they decide they do not care much about Jesus' injunctions to forgive your enemies etal ?

oyb:

we seem to be going offtopic


Can you be a true Christian if you choose what commands to follow 

recently CAN was demanding a Gun bill .

i think though i'm not sure, the NRA has a strong Christian affliation . at least charlton heston was a devout Christian .

is this in line with Jesus teachings and Christian Doctrine or have they decide they do not care much about Jesus' injunctions to forgive your enemies etal ?

Turn the other check and give out your coat if some one sues you for your cloak, They never abide by that, NEVER.

This is quite an interesting thread and food for thought.

It will be great the thread could be placed on track and this is nothing to do with islam. If anyone wants to talk on islam there is a separate section to go.

I wish more christians apart from osisi and noetic (who are obessed with islam) could shed more light on this and lets all be matured in discussion.

@oyb bro you could modify the topic to warfare like you noted.

Luk 22:35-38
(35) And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
(36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.(37) For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
(38) And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

^^^^^

does that not contradict this:

Matthew 26:52 - 'for all who draw the sword will die by the sword'


Luk 22:35-38
(35) And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
(36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
(37) For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
(38) And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

does this imply that Jesus was advocating warfare? this seems to be at odds with the fact that there is no record of him resorting to violent self defence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade

The Crusades were a series of religion-driven military campaigns waged by much of Latin Christian Europe. The specific crusades to regain control of the Holy Land were fought over a period of nearly 200 years, between 1095 and 1291. Other campaigns in Spain and Eastern Europe continued into the 15th century. The Crusades were fought mainly against Muslims, although[b] campaigns were also waged against pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, Waldensians, Old Prussians, and political enemies of the popes[/b].[1] Crusaders took vows and were granted an indulgence for past sins.[1]

The Crusades originally had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule and were launched in response to a call from the Eastern Orthodox Byzantine Empire for help against the expansion of the Muslim Seljuk Turks into Anatolia. The term is also used to describe contemporaneous and subsequent campaigns conducted through to the 16th century in territories outside the Levant[a] usually against pagans, heretics, and peoples under the ban of excommunication[2] for a mixture of religious, economic, and political reasons.[3] Rivalries among both Christian and Muslim powers led also to alliances between religious factions against their opponents, such as the Christian alliance with the Sultanate of Rum during the Fifth Crusade.

does Luk 22:35-38 justify the crusades ?

What you should do is try to find the correlation or try to find a balance between what Luke 22:35-38 says and what Matthew 26:52 says and not wonder if they contradict thmselves.
Afterall, it is the same person that spoke in the two different portions.

This article might help(Note: I said "might" help.I'm not expecting it to totally convince u or any other person):

Resisting evil,self defence and war

oyb:

osisi,
why are you derailing the thread

thats not the Christian way is it?

there is nothing in what you posted indicating that the centurions were devout Christians

if my memory serves me right, romans persecuted christians . so how did roman soldiers suddenly become christains


is there anything in the new testament that sanctions warfare?

none of the people you referenced were engaged in what soldier are intended to do - kill

okay

so does the new testament sanction warfare?
if it does
what is its stand on the following :

rules of engagement
treason
sdition
session
preemption
dealing with hostile nations

Oyb,I expect a little more intelligence from you.
You can see that your questions regarding a Christian soldier has been intelligently answered and you are now grasping at straws
Yes a Christian can be a soldier in the war front,he can be a commander of soldiers
The centurion in acts 10 was a soldier and a Christian
The one whose servant was healed was a man of great authority in the army,he called Jesus Lord and Christ spoke of his great faith.

I know you started this thread as an attempt to save face from the humiliations from the "the only religion that kills thread"
The killings are different here.
War is war
Islam murders apostates
Those are different

Lagosboy:

This is quite an interesting thread and food for thought.

It will be great the thread could be placed on track and this is nothing to do with islam. If anyone wants to talk on islam there is a separate section to go.

I wish more christians apart from osisi and noetic (who are obessed with islam) could shed more light on this and lets all be matured in discussion.

@oyb bro you could modify the topic to warfare like you noted.

An interesting thread because oyb expected that there would not be any NT example of Christian soldiers
That's why he now wants to change his topic since he found out how wrong he was
By the way where were you on the "The only religion that kills as a duty" thread
conveniently kept away huh?
A Christian soldier can engage in warfare for his country
what else do you want to know

hmmm. . .

Oyb,I expect a little more intelligence from you.
You can see that your questions regarding a Christian soldier has been intelligently answered and you are now grasping at straws
Yes a Christian can be a soldier in the war front,he can be a commander of soldiers  
The centurion in acts 10 was a soldier and a Christian
The one whose servant was healed was a man of great authority in the army,he called Jesus Lord and Christ spoke of his great faith.

I know you started this thread as an attempt to save face from the humiliations from the "the only religion that kills thread"
The killings are different here.
War is war
Islam murders apostates
Those are different

The Crusades were a series of religion-driven military campaigns waged by much of Latin Christian Europe. The specific crusades to regain control of the Holy Land were fought over a period of nearly 200 years, between 1095 and 1291. Other campaigns in Spain and Eastern Europe continued into the 15th century. The Crusades were fought mainly against Muslims, although campaigns were also waged against pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, Waldensians, Old Prussians, and political enemies of the popes.[1] Crusaders took vows and were granted an indulgence for past sins.[1]

The Crusades originally had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule and were launched in response to a call from the Eastern Orthodox Byzantine Empire for help against the expansion of the Muslim Seljuk Turks into Anatolia. The term is also used to describe contemporaneous and subsequent campaigns conducted through to the 16th century in territories outside the Levant[a] usually against pagans, heretics, and peoples under the ban of excommunication[2] for a mixture of religious, economic, and political reasons.[3] Rivalries among both Christian and Muslim powers led also to alliances between religious factions against their opponents, such as the Christian alliance with the Sultanate of Rum during the Fifth Crusade.

really - so what was the basis for crusades against heretics and people under the ban of excommunication?  

A Christian soldier can engage in warfare for his country

you know this is directly contradicting everything Jesus stood for and said.

unless of course ' there are Christians who obey the commands of the bible - and others which do not care that much as to make it a part of their lives.' 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War

Morality of war

"The morning after the battle of Waterloo", by John Heaviside Clarke, 1816. This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed. (June 2008)


Throughout history war has been the source of serious moral questions. Although many ancient nations and some modern ones have viewed war as noble, over the sweep of history, concerns about the morality of war have gradually increased. Today, war is seen by some as undesirable and morally problematic. At the same time, many view war, or at least the preparation and readiness and willingness to engage in war, as necessary for the defense of their country and therefore a just war. Pacifists believe that war is inherently immoral and that no war should ever be fought.

The negative view of war has not always been held as widely as it is today. Heinrich von Treitschke saw war as humanity's highest activity where courage, honour, and ability were more necessary than in any other endeavour. Friedrich Nietzsche also saw war as an opportunity for the Übermensch to display heroism, honour, and other virtues.[citation needed]

Another supporter of war, Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, favoured it as part of the necessary process required for history to unfold and allow society to progress. At the outbreak of World War I, the writer Thomas Mann wrote, "Is not peace an element of civil corruption and war a purification, a liberation, an enormous hope?" This attitude has been embraced by societies from Sparta and Rome in the ancient world to the fascist states of the 1930s.

International law recognizes only two cases for a legitimate war:
Wars of defense: when one nation is attacked by an aggressor, it is considered legitimate for a nation along with its allies to defend itself against the aggressor.
Wars sanctioned by the UN Security Council: when the United Nations as a whole acts as a body against a certain nation. Examples include various peacekeeping operations around the world.

The subset of international law known as the law of war or international humanitarian law also recognises regulations for the conduct of war, including the Geneva Conventions governing the legitimacy of certain kinds of weapons, and the treatment of prisoners of war. Cases where these conventions are broken are considered war crimes, and since the Nuremberg Trials at the end of World War II the international community has established a number of tribunals to try such cases.

A nation's economy is often stimulated by government war-spending. When countries wage war, more weapons, armor, ammunition, and the like are needed to be created and sold to the armies, thus their economies can enter a boom (or war economy) reducing unemployment. One major depression, the Great Depression, was ended because of World War II. However this thinking is challenged by the parable of the broken window which describes this idea as a fallacy.

hmm. . . doesn't christianity preach pacificsm?

oyb:


you know this is directly contradicting everything Jesus stood for and said.

unless of course ' there are Christians who obey the commands of the bible - and others which do not care that much as to make it a part of their lives.'

You do not know the Bible
what the fried fish
You don't even know your own religion.
I taught you how many volumed the Sahih Bukhari had,just yesterday

AAgain being a soldier is a vocation
and it's not against the teachings of Christ
Soldiers protect their lands.

got to work

oyb:


you know this is directly contradicting everything Jesus stood for and said.

How is this contradiction? Jesus never said 'do not be a soldier' or 'it is a sin to be a soldier'.

What Jesus preaches is a spirit of non-aggression, not weakness and complete submission to any form of attack.

whats with the derailing  and chest thumping/hubris  

osisi, I agree, i don't know the bible, so i am waiting for you to give me verses from the NT that directly justify warfare. not interpretations, which are what your quotes about the soldier really are.

the roman army existed before Christianity, and it was charged with expanding the roman empire by force. There are records of pederasty in the Roman army. so how can a devout  Christian agree to be part of a body that was engaged in aggressive expansion of a nation against hapless neighbours, among other things  ? the roman army wa

What Jesus preaches is a spirit of non-aggression, not weakness and complete submission to any form of attack.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also

But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Most High

how does that reconcile with this?

theres a strong contracdiction in this business of te christain Roman centurion

http://patriot.net/~carey/afa/latinclub/persecution.htm

By Neil Manzullo February 8th , 2000 Persuasive Writing

It is a time of trouble in the Roman world. Enemies vex Roman troops on all sides of their vast empire. Political problems threaten to tear the Empire to pieces. Romans war against fellow Romans. The burdening weight of corrupt and inept emperors threatens to crush the Empire. In the midst of this sea of chaos, a religion springs forth which is virulently, or so it seems, against the things which Rome has always stood for. Romans view it as yet another threat to the stability of their ancient but failing power, as something which must be stopped if the Empire is to survive. They condemn it as a perverse and irrational religious awe, harmful, new and mischievous, and other spurious contrivances of the Roman government. Despite the charges, it flourishes. This religion is Christianity. The Romans attempt to halt its rapid insinuation of itself among the common people by persecution and oppression. The tremendously powerful Roman state cannot stop this religion, for much of their power became sterile and stagnant ages ago. However, the massive power which still remains attempts to stop its spread. The only chance of slowing its rapid growth lies in persecution, which the Romans readily apply. Despite the persecution, Christianity flourishes.

This is the background of the Roman persecution of Christians. From the perspective of a typical Roman emperor, Christianity threatened to lay waste to traditional Roman values and practices, to sabotage the very basis for Roman power, to pervert what was Rome. Because of this, the Romans tried to halt its spread by persecuting Christians. They justified their persecution by accusing Christians of breaking the peace of the gods, corrupting public morals, not following their ancestors, and many other things. Even though this persecution was legal and, from the perspective of a typical Roman official, necessary to the survival of the Roman state, it was completely immoral.

the state persecuted christains, and still kept them in the ranks of its soldiers 

AAgain being a soldier is a vocation
and it's not against the teachings of Christ
Soldiers protect their lands.

actually that is more than a little naive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland_(1939)

The Invasion of Poland in 1939 precipitated World War II. It was carried out by Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and a small Slovak contingent. In Poland the invasion is also known as the September Campaign (Kampania wrześniowa) or the 1939 Defensive War (Wojna obronna 1939 roku). In Germany it is sometimes referred to as the Poland Campaign (Polenfeldzug) or the Polish-German War of 1939. For the German General Staff, it was codenamed Unternehmen Fall Weiss, or Case White.

The invasion of Poland marked the start of World War II in Europe, as Poland's western allies, the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand,[8] declared war on Germany on September 3, soon followed by France, South Africa and Canada, among others. The invasion began on 1 September 1939, one week after the signing of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, and ended 6 October 1939, with Germany and the Soviet Union occupying the entirety of Poland. Although the United Kingdom and France declared war on Germany soon after Germany attacked Poland, very little direct military aid was provided (see Phoney War and Western betrayal).

Following a German-staged "Polish attack" on 31 August 1939, on September 1, German forces invaded Poland from the north, south, and west. Spread thin defending their long borders, the Polish armies were soon forced to withdraw eastward. After the mid-September Polish defeat in the Battle of the Bzura, the Germans gained an undisputed advantage. Polish forces then began a withdrawal southeast, following a plan that called for a long defence in the Romanian bridgehead area, where the Polish forces were to await an expected Allied counterattack and relief.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_powers#Italy

Italy
Main article: Kingdom of Italy (1861–1946)

Kingdom of Italy

The Kingdom of Italy was under the leadership of the fascist dictator Benito Mussolini in the name of King Victor Emmanuel III.

During World War I, Italy had entered the war against Germany and Austria-Hungary. At the end Italy made only minor gains rather than the large concessions promised by the London Pact. The London pact was nullified with the treaty of Versailles, Italian nationalists and the public saw this as an injustice and an outrage; there had been over 600,000 Italian casualties. This resentment together with internal discontent and an economic downturn allowed the Italian Fascists under Benito Mussolini to rise to power in 1922.

In the late 19th century after the reunification, a nationalist movement grew around the concept of Italia irredenta which advocated the incorporation of Italian-speaking areas under foreign rule into Italy; there was a desire to annex Italian speaking areas in Dalmatia. Italy's Fascist regime's intention was to create a "New Roman Empire" in which Italy would dominate the Mediterranean Sea. In 1935-1936, Italy invaded and annexed Ethiopia. The League of Nations protested, however no serious action was taken, though Italy faced diplomatic isolation by many countries. In 1937 Italy left the League of Nations and in the same year joined the Anti-Comintern Pact which was signed by Germany and Japan the preceding year. In March/April 1939 Italian troops invaded and annexed Albania. Germany and Italy signed the Pact of Steel on May 22.

Italy entered World War II on June 10, 1940.[citation needed] In September 1940 Germany, Italy and Japan signed the Tripartite Pact. By 1941, however, the Italians had suffered multiple military defeats; in Greece and against the British in Egypt. It was only through German intervention in Yugoslavia, the Balkans and North Africa that Italy managed to avert a major military collapse. By 1943 the Italian people had lost faith in Mussolini and no longer supported the war; Italy had lost its colonies, the allies had taken North Africa in May and Sicily had been invaded in July.

On July 25, 1943, King Victor Emmanuel III dismissed Mussolini, placed him under arrest, and began secret negotiations with the Allies. Italy then signed an armistice with the Allies on September 8, 1943 and later joined the Western Allies as a co-belligerent. On September 12, 1943, Mussolini was rescued by the Germans in Operation Oak and a puppet state was formed in northern Italy (see "German puppet states" below), although it exercised little real power and Italy continued as a member of the Axis Tripartite Pact in name only. This resurrected Fascist state was referred to as Repubblica di Salò or the Italian Social Republic (Repubblica Sociale Italiana/RSI).

soldiers who defend are defending against others who are attacking , not so?

both highlighted armies were comprised of adherents of the Christan faith.

so osisi, how do you reconcile engaging in acts of naked aggression against other nations? Are you allowed to do that ?

Its is ok for anyone to use violence to protect themselves from oppression even if its to the extent of killing if there

is a threat against ones life and service to God YHVH. Some people will say but Jesus said we should not live by

the sword and that if we are struck we should not strike back. But the Israelites were given commandments to

wage war against the pagan and abhorrent Canaanites and to proscribe certain sinners according to the Law.

So there is nothing wrong with defending yurself during persecution Or forming armies to defend the

commandments of God and His Messiah.

Its is ok for anyone to use violence to protect themselves from oppression even if its to the extent of killing if there

is a threat against ones life and service to God YHVH. Some people will say but Jesus said we should not live by

the sword and that if we are struck we should not strike back. But the Israelites were given commandments to

wage war against the pagan and abhorrent Canaanites and to proscribe certain sinners according to the Law.


So there is nothing wrong with defending yurself during persecution Or forming armies to defend the commandments of God and His Messiah.

old testament, which is supposed to be abrogated. the old testament to be frank - advocates outright genocide, rape etal.