oyb:

?

osisi, you seem to be confusing parables and metahphors with real life

do soldiers fight with bibles? do meek soldiers win wars ? you are shifting into the absurd . do you want to claim that the marines on parris island are expected to be meek?
'

You are the one who is without knowledge.
Soldiers fight with guns
there's a differerence between warfare by an army and a man going down the street and shooting his neighbor.
I really did take it for granted that I was responding to someone capable of making that disctinction.
I'm sorry

offttopic, great - so what would you say about Americans turning Russians against their government during the cold war? isn't that unbilblical? turning people
to treason against their government?


The Crusades were a series of religion-driven military campaigns waged by much of Latin Christian Europe. The specific crusades to regain control of the Holy Land were fought over a period of nearly 200 years, between 1095 and 1291. Other campaigns in Spain and Eastern Europe continued into the 15th century. The Crusades were fought mainly against Muslims, although campaigns were also waged against pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, Waldensians, Old Prussians, and political enemies of the popes.[1] Crusaders took vows and were granted an indulgence for past sins.[1]

Is this thread about the crusades?
Remember I challenged one of you to start a thread on the crusades from it's origin
Is this that thread?
let's stick to your topic without dabbling into any specific wars
don't make this one of the confused rants you and olabowole throw without making much meaning.

so what tribe was Cornelius?

Read Acts 10 again

oyb:

hope fully the pics will appear this time.

one picture shows the iconic vietnam picture

the other shows tha nagasaki mushroom


oya osisi expalin to me since i am so slow how as you put it

since you seem to think that you can wage war (i don't know if it spiritual or real war) without harming people.

Are you asking me to comment on the Vietnam war and world war II ?
If the wars were justified and if Christians should have been soldiers at that war?
If you watch my threads I'm usually specific
My topic is usually the main body of my discussion so people don't go off tangent.
Do you also want to talk about the wars in Iraq and afghanistan?
If you want the wars discussed specifically,start a thread on that and those interested will answer you.
For the last time you asked if Christians can be soldiers and the answer is yes
You asked again if Christians can fight in battles and the answer again is yes
I'm not ready to discuss any specific wars
There could be as many Christians that oppose any of the wars you mentioned as those who think it's justifiable.
That is the beauty in Christianity
People are free to have differing opinions yet the same Spirit.
One man eats meat,another abhors yet the Lord accepts both of them.
One man refuses to be a soldier,another is a 5 star general,yet the same Lord is their God.
To answer your question once very
can a Christian be a soldier in the war front with a gun
again I say absolutely and you've seen my biblical proof

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centurion

Vegetius about the qualities necessary for the centurion

The centurion in the infantry is chosen for his size, strength and dexterity in throwing his missile weapons and for his skill in the use of his sword and shield; in short for his expertness in all the exercises. He is to be vigilant, temperate, active and readier to execute the orders he receives than to talk; Strict in exercising and keeping up proper discipline among his soldiers, in obliging them to appear clean and well-dressed and to have their arms constantly rubbed and bright.

http://books.google.com.ng/books?id=G3tYljWV_zEC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=ideal+traits+of+a+soldier&source=bl&ots=DU4trzDMj4&sig=z00SATJim7lklnH1uyl_c2VXyTw&hl=en&ei=mswySrrlDoTLjAe7saX5CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

Why on earth would the Bible use a profession that Christians are abhored from going into to compare the Christian life to?

now you're really being absurd. Christian life is compared /modelled on martial life?  

there's a differerence between warfare by an army and a man going down the street and shooting his neighbor.
I really did take it for granted that I was responding to someone capable of making that disctinction.

er. . .you still have not commented on the slightly offtopic military expeditions against pagans etal

you have also failed to chide jjyou for his blatant offtopic attempts

and you have still failed to reconcile how christians can be involved in the events depicted in the images.

you seem to be getting upset.

you say christains can go to war. note that this is your personal interprtation of the scripture . . on the web there are those who think different

yes

Are you asking me to comment on the Vietnam war and world war II ?

bothe were wars started by people of the christain faith, not so? as in christains were the original aggressors in both conflicts. the invasions were not about self defense, the soldires involved in this knew this. as christains who were brought up on blessed are the peacemakers etal, how could they go through with the invasion? or do governements will supersede the biblical injunctions ?

http://www.spiritualitytoday.org/spir2day/863821murphy.html

excerpt

EARLY CHURCH PRACTICE

When we are seeking the true meaning of the teachings of the Bible, it can be helpful to us to go back to our roots, the early church which was founded by Christ through the power of the Spirit of God. The manner in which the early church lived out the teachings of Christ may help us to understand how we are to live the Christian way as the early church was taught by the apostles who were taught by Jesus.

The early church took the teachings of Jesus and the apostles very seriously. Guided by the Holy Spirit, they were strong pacifists. T[b]hey did not identify with any earthly nation but rather claimed citizenship in heaven, considering themselves as strangers and aliens on the earth[/b] (Heb. 11:13-16 and I Peter 2:11). They believed that the governments were given by God and therefore to be obeyed when it did not conflict with obeying God (Acts 4:19; Rom. 13:1-6 and I Peter 2:13-14). However, Christians could not be judges or soldiers as this would place them in positions where they might be responsible for taking someone's life.

Most serious scholars of church history today agree that for the f[b]irst three centuries of the Christian church, Christians rejected not only emperor-worship and idolatry but also participation in the military. Obedience to the gospel, the early church held, was consistent only with a position of nonresistance and not serving in the military[/b]. This does not mean, of course, that all early Christians were consistently following the teachings of Christ and the apostles. The New Testament gives us much evidence that not all were true to the gospel but many were lured by Satan off the narrow path.

Yale church historian Roland Bainton writes, "From the end of the New Testament period to the decade 170-180 there is no evidence whatever of Christians in the army. All of the East and West repudiated participation in warfare for Christians." Guy F. Hershberger adds, "it is quite clear that prior to about AD 174 it is impossible to speak of Christian soldiers." None of the Christian leaders in the pre-Constantinian era (ca. 313) approved of a military career for disciples of Jesus Christ.

Many early writers spoke of this pacifism. Tertullian wrote, "The divine banner and the human banner do not go together, nor the standard of Christ and the standard of the devil. Only without the sword can the Christian wage war: for the Lord has abolished the sword."(1) About 240, Origen wrote, "You cannot demand military service of Christians any more than you can of priests. We do not go forth as soldiers."(2)

Justin Martyr wrote about the year 160, "We ourselves were well conversant with war, murder, and everything evil, but all of us throughout the whole wide earth have traded in our weapons of war. We have exchanged our swords for ploughshares, our spears for farm tools. Now we cultivate the fear of God, justice, kindness to men, faith, and the expectation of the future given to us by the Father himself through the Crucified One."(3) Twenty years later, Athenagoras asked, "How can we possibly kill anyone, we who call those women murderers who take drugs to induce an abortion, we who say they will have to give an account before God one day! We are convinced that with God nothing goes unexamined, and that the body, after serving the irrational urges and lusts of the soul, will have its share in punishment. We have, therefore, every reason to detest even the slightest sin."(4) Hippolytus (ca. 218) states that soldiers who become Christians are not allowed to kill and must refuse to obey orders to kill. He also says that judges who want to become followers of the Christ must resign or be rejected by the church.(5)

MODERN PRACTICE

This pacifism did not survive the Constantinian change. By the year 314, the church was excommunicating military deserters without any consideration of the motives for desertion. Leo Tolstoy, author of War and Peace, said, "A pacifist can not own property. For ownership requires the use or threat of force to protect it." When the early church gave up community living and began living as individuals with each one owning their own possessions then the church also gave up pacifism. The two seem to go together.

Dr. Eberhard Arnold, founder of the Society of Brothers, began to question the wisdom of the Christian churches when he observed the results of World War I. He saw the German Christian soldiers killing and being killed by the enemy soldiers who also claimed to be Christian. How could German Christian ministers and priests bless the German army and send it off to war while the enemy Christian ministers and priests were blessing their armies and sending them off to war also? How could a Christian soldier maim and kill other Christian soldiers? How can one part of the Body of Christ do evil to another part? This seemed very contrary to the teaching of the Bible to Dr. Arnold. This line of reasoning led him to become a pacifist.

The churches today, as of Dr. Arnold's time, have problems dealing with the issue of pacifism. There are the historic peace churches such as the Mennonites, the Quakers and the Church of the Brethren that preach pacifism. Then there are those churches that accept the so-called 'just war position. Many of these have developed elaborate guidelines as to what constitutes a just war. But there are also those ministers of the gospel of Jesus that preach nationalism, loyalty to the state and hatred of governments that oppose ours. In his book, Preachers Present Arms, Ray H. Abrams documents at length the story of the involvement of the clergy in the world wars as well as the Vietnam war. One minister told his people, "We are fighting not only for our country and for the democracy of the world but for the kingdom of God ,  We can not draw the line between Christianity and the military. The two go together. Every church should be a recruiting station."

Governments are created by God as servants whose duty it is to take vengeance on evildoers, to punish the evil and to protect and shelter its citizens. God has given the sword into their hands. He has granted the government honor and dignity that it might rightly be obeyed in that which is not against God. But because governments are outside the perfection of Christ, they sometimes feel a need to go to war with their neighbors. To do this they need an army that will carry out their bidding. Governments recognize that most young people can not be aroused to kill unless they first hate those that they kill. Therefore, before a government leads its people into war, great propaganda efforts must be made to bring people to the point where they can believe it is right to kill other human beings. Often, in the guise of religion, they declare that the enemy is evil and under the control of the devil. At the same time they may state that God is with them. These propaganda efforts to bring forth hatred should alert the Christian immediately that something is wrong. Hatred should be obviously identified as the work of Satan and not of Jesus Christ.

Supporting the military activities of a government seems to be in opposition to the call of the New Testament to reject the world. John tells us to love not the world nor the things of the world. Jesus said that his disciples are in the world but not of the world. Rejection of the worldly system means rejection of selfishness which is what nationalism boils down to. When a country says "This is mine" and fights to get it or keep it, then those who support it are following a spirit other than the Spirit of Christ.

The faith required to be a pacifist must provide the Christian with the assurance that God is in charge of all that happens to the Christian. Just as Jesus said that we should look to the Father for our daily needs, we can be confident that he loves us and is leading us into God's kingdom. If we can not trust God then we need to trust in our own power. But we, who call ourselves followers of Christ, have placed our complete trust in God.

Considerable human logic is used by the opponents of pacifism. Their arguments sound reasonable until we remember that Christians are in the 'upside down' kingdom where things are done differently than in the world. The opponents of pacifism may recognize Jesus as the Christ but in their arguments against pacifism they are noticeably lacking in any attempt to support their position with the teachings of Jesus or the apostles. This seems very inconsistent for such an important subject

seems they had a different interpretation back in the day 

sadly it seems that something which i have said in the past has come to the fore - Christians constantly reinterpret the bible to suit the situation/times   


everyone has been 'interpreting ' verses from the bible

Matthew 10:34 - "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" is one of the controversial statements reported of Jesus in the Bible. The saying has been interpreted in several ways, by Christians and non-Christians, to support several mutually-incompatible conclusions. Its main significance in that context is that it is often offered as evidence that Jesus advocated violence — a view that is repugnant to some Christians, such as the Peace churches, and some other Christian denominations.

on Nairaland, i was told that the sword was a metahphor, a parable, though pope pius X didn't seem to think so, as he used it as a rallying cry for the crusades. tomorrow, if everyone is arguing that the bible shuns violence/soldiering , can we expect different methaphorical interprataions of the verses previously quoted

oyb,

Christians differ in opinions all the time  about zillions of things  just like you Muslims differ in opinions about issues like Child marriage,polygamy,temporary marriage etc [b]but you notice that we all agree that Jesus died on the cross and is the coming king.[/b]Posting differing opinions from Christians on the web and expecting me to answer is like asking why you have not blown yourself to pieces for the promise of 72 virgins yet Musims do it.
do you get my drift.
The Christians that refuse to be soldiers are not in error neither are the ones who are soldiers.
This is not an issue that determines the quality of their faith.

oyb:

http://www.spiritualitytoday.org/spir2day/863821murphy.html

excerpt

seems they had a different interpretation back in the day 

sadly it seems that something which i have said in the past has come to the fore - Christians constantly reinterpret the bible to suit the situation/times   


everyone has been 'interpreting ' verses from the bible

on Nairaland, i was told that the sword was a metahphor, a parable, though pope pius X didn't seem to think so, as he used it as a rallying cry for the crusades. tomorrow, if everyone is arguing that the bible shuns violence/soldiering , can we expect different methaphorical interprataions of the verses previously quoted

you wish christians will sit watch you kill them with your sword because you have no understanding . if you checked your songs of praise you will see a song there called " onward christian soldier" search and see its wordings.

gone are the days of the pacifists. there are just causes and wars. your likes should not be able to assault people like you did in 9/11 and not pay a heavy prize. along with your ability to do nasty things in the name of your mullahs should come heavy consequences too. mustapha should have said that in his quoran.

but you notice that we all agree that Jesus died on the cross and is the coming king

jehovah witnesses disagree about the nature of Jesus and his death.

i believe the same is among mormons

gone are the days of the pacifists. there are just causes and wars

was there ever an age of pacificists in this world?

bawomolo:

jehovah witnesses disagree about the nature of Jesus and his death.

i believe the same is among mormons

That is why they are Jehovahs' witnesses and refer to themselves as such.

$osisi:

That is why they are Jehovahs' witnesses and refer to themselves as such

They consider themselves Christians

bawomolo:

They consider themselves Christians

start a thread on the differences between JH and Christianity.
They have their own bible remember
don't derail the thread.

Christians differ in opinions all the time  about zillions of things  just like you Muslims differ in opinions about issues like Child marriage,polygamy,temporary marriage etc but you notice that we all agree that Jesus died on the cross and is the coming king.Posting differing opinions from Christians on the web and expecting me to answer is like asking why you have not blown yourself to pieces for the promise of 72 virgins yet Musims do it.

now you are going off tangent.  

coming from YOU, the above sounds very strange.YOU have never when starting threads on such subjects acknowledged what i highlighted. you have always made it sound like 100% muslim doctrine that we all subscribe to

more to the point, what you posted is not relevant. are you implying that none of you is actually sure of the admonitions etal of the bible?

by implication , some of you may be in errors that will lead you to hell. Imagine if what i posted is actually the true biblical interpretation. considering the disenchantment that so many christains keep expressing towards the modern church, I may very well be correct . that would mean that all christains in armies everywhere are bound for hell, since they will be guilty of murder . don't you think you people should get to the bottom of it once and for all? for the love of each other ?  


doesn't that sound like a more fruitful pursuit than your pointless pontificating on the Islam threads  

you wish christians will sit watch you kill them with your sword because you have no understanding

no i just fail to understand why it seems that you base your interpretation of scripture on immediate circumstances.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

[b]Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. Woe unto you that are full now, for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now, for ye shall mourn and weep. Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you, for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

the above is what Jesus said. by implication, persecution is a one way ticket to heaven. are you not in a hurry to meet Jesus , who you claim to love so much?

Lol!Without these romans that you are so judging and condemning,you wouldn't be a christian today.It was by their grace that christianity reached you in the form it did.Show them some appreciation for giving you Jesus and the bible.

this is intresting, and it highlights something else - as far as what Jesus said is concerned. the purpose of persecution is to bring Christians closer to him. Sadly, you guys seems to be fixated on worldly pursuits.

gone are the days of the pacifists.  there are just causes and wars

yep, when the going gets tough the words of jesus get thrown out the window. the persecution Christians face today is nothing compared to what they faced in rome. nero illuminated his gardens with christains soaked in tar, christians were regularly used as entertainemnt at coliseums. and they didn't resist. anyway, i guess, its been dsaid before, no real christiians anymore, just followers and seekers of worldly pleasures  


JJYOU - this is especially for you - -and osisi

Have therefore no concern for the morrow: for the morrow shall have concern for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the trouble thereof. Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

offtopic, but food for thought, not so?  


bawomolo,   offtopic!

oyb:

now you are going off tangent. 

coming from YOU, the above sounds very strange.YOU have never when starting threads on such subjects acknowledged what i highlighted. you have always made it sound like 100% muslim doctrine that we all subscribe to

more to the point, what you posted is not relevant. are you implying that none of you is actually sure of the admonitions etal of the bible?

by implication , some of you may be in errors that will lead you to hell. Imagine if what i posted is actually the true biblical interpretation. considering the disenchantment that so many christains keep expressing towards the modern church, I may very well be correct . that would mean that all christains in armies everywhere are bound for hell, since they will be guilty of murder . don't you think you people should get to the bottom of it once and for all? for the love of each other ? 


doesn't that sound like a more fruitful pursuit than your pointless pontificating on the Islam threads 



no i just fail to understand why it seems that you base your interpretation of scripture on immediate circumstances.

the above is what Jesus said. by implication, persecution is a one way ticket to heaven. are you not in a hurry to meet Jesus , who you claim to love so much?

this is intresting, and it highlights something else - as far as what Jesus said is concerned. the purpose of persecution is to bring Christians closer to him. Sadly, you guys seems to be fixated on worldly pursuits.

yep, when the going gets tough the words of jesus get thrown out the window. the persecution Christians face today is nothing compared to what they faced in rome. nero illuminated his gardens with christains soaked in tar, christians were regularly used as entertainemnt at coliseums. and they didn't resist. anyway, i guess, its been dsaid before, no real christiians anymore, just followers and seekers of worldly pleasures 


JJYOU - this is especially for you - -and osisi


offtopic, but food for thought, not so? 


bawomolo,   offtopic!

Personally,the thread has outlived it's usefulness.
Enjoy your going round and round in circles.
My first few posts captured everything I meant to say.
Can a Christian engage in warfare

[size=32pt]Absolutely[/size]   

with the Holy Spirit indwelling too

are there examples of Christian soldiers in the Boble

[size=32pt]Yes[/size]

Did Jesus interact with soldiers

[size=32pt]Yes[/size]


did he ask them to leave their vocation

[size=32pt]No[/size]

can a Christian frown at being a soldier

[size=32pt]Yes[/size]

Is he better than a Christian who chooses to be a soldier

[size=32pt]No[/size]

Are they both acceptable in the sight of God

[size=32pt]Yes[/size]

bye then

i beleive it has also served to illustrate the fact that modern Christians interpret/follow  the  bible and the words of Jesus according to the whim of the moment.




erm  i couldn't resist some quick interpolation and cherry picking

are there examples of Christian soldiers prostitutes/moneylenders in the Boble _{is this a sign of agitation}

Yes

Did Jesus interact with soldiers prostitutes / moneylenders

Yes


did he ask them to leave their vocation


No

can a Christian frown at being a soldiers prostitutes / moneylenders

Yes

Is he better than a Christian who chooses to be soldiers prostitutes / moneylenders

No


Are they both acceptable in the sight of God

Yes - as long as they accept Jesus

ergo, Christians can be prostitues and shylocks

no vex, i'm just kidding 

oya, lets see what havoc you are wreaking in Islam for Muslims 

hope you remember what jesus said on judging when you are all fired up with moral high ground superiority

any "true religious" person or even atheist, should only "war" when defending themselves.