muhsin:

@Poster,

May the Almighty God guide you, ameen.
I wish you all the best.

JeSoul:

  You miss my point Chris. I get where you're going with the above scenario but the bottomline for a christian is this God is not bound to or limited by the laws of nature, physics, chemistry or biology. He can choose to break them whenever He wants as is narrated so many times in the OT - the crossing of the Red Sea, the plagues on Egypt, Daniel in the Lions den, the 3 Hebrew boys thrown into the furnace but didn't suffer a scratch etc . . .

Doubt in the God what we never entertain, doubt in the world around us is welcome at all times . And no doubt is not what caused the terrorists to fly into those buildings - it was[b] baseless religious fanaticism, one which was void of love and compassion[/b]. A good yardstick to measure ones religion is to see how your religion teaches you to treat your friends and enemies.

I think 'differently' was a severely inadequate word for me to have used . . . as far as the east is from the west, and as high as the heavens are above the earth - that's the difference btw how you & a christian will think. Its more than just different experiences and backgrounds, so much more than that. I mean the evidence is right here on NL, see how much you disagree with the other christians on the board - the way both sides think so differently?

Look all I'm saying is this, just because people have abused the bible and perverted its teachings to their own agendas doesn't automatically discredit the bible.

bawomolo:

how do you differentiate between those who have perverted the teachings of the bibe and those who haven't?

Chrisbenogor:

Hi again Jesoul, I think I am actually gonna bite.

You see I believe that there are laws in nature and we can only bend these laws to our benefit not dismiss them totally, I do not think there is anything mysterious about how the red sea could have parted or that a Lion would not eat someone if the stories are anything to go by but that was not the point I was driving home.

In a thread titled in the light of new evidence I asked what would happen if somehow we were able to grab a hold of Jesus' DNA and then it showed that Jesus truely did have a biological father and also we traced the evidence to who the father was?

Sadly religious practices mostly never have a really good base or foundation, the bible or quaran is the basis for christians and muslims, and if there are 72 virgins in the offing to take out yourself and innocent people people go ahead and do it. If we trace the path back the reason is because they have seen it in the holy book and they want to abide by it.

Religion does not give many people room to think for themselves, I dropped my friends off in church on Sunday evening and went in since it had been such a long time, I saw a couple of kids coming out of the church running around in excitement, they had in their hands a small book with an orange cover. The book was a catechism book and I remembered how as kids looking to get our sacrament of first holy communion and confirmation (yes I was a confirmed catholic ) we used this book and chanted all saturday and sunday evening. Let me dramatise my point a bit, the very first question in the book was
1. Who made you ?
Answer- God made me
you had to repeat this answer on top of your voice for about ten times
2. Why Did God Make You?
Answer- God made me to know him, love him, serve him in this world and to be happy with him in the next
we shouted this on the top of our voices for as many times,

The indoctrination above does not give mighty room for a child to grow up and question how his religion wants him to treat others ( unless you were a renegade child like me who always ran off to play football ), if there is anywhere in the catholic faith or biblical faith that required people to kill in the name of God that is what most Christians would do. We really do not have much luxury to change and since we are all different some kids take it more to heart than others. Doubt in God begins when I look at a verse in the bible and say hell no a loving/sensible/morally good God will know better than to ask for a kid to be stoned to death for cursing his parents, so it is easy to call it baseless when it is not yours, hope you catch my drift.

Tudór:

Classic christian propaganda- quoting only parts of scripture they like and ignoring the rest.

James 1:27 "religion that god our father accept as PURE is this:to look after orphans and widows in distress and keep ones self from being polluted by the world"-

The above passage is quite good but how'd you reconcile purity and love for widows and orphans with commandments to kill unbelievers, rape, loot,enslave and steal lands in addition to genocide and ethnic cleansing,in essence creating more widows and orphans.

This is a nagging problem atheists have with the christian god. The contradictions are overwhelming yet you lot fail to acknowledge . . .

JeSoul:

hehe your retraction is most welcome 
    I'm thrilled you used the word believe. Before I address the rest, care to state how you arrived at these beliefs?
   You're asking a question in which the scenario is 100% certain to never happen. I bet it is conceivable to you why any christian wouldn't and couldn't answer that. You might as well be asking what if I was never born and my parents had a boy instead.

You're asking a question in which the scenario is 100% certain to never happen. I bet it is conceivable to you why any christian wouldn't and couldn't answer that. You might as well be asking what if I was never born and my parents had a boy instead.

I agree. People complicate things more than what God intended. The same bible concludes this about what religion should be about:
James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Simple! you see how easy and straightforward it is? Where are the verbal and spiritual gymnastics here? Men have taken a beautiful thing and as usual corrupted it.

Oh but I so beg to differ! Perhaps man-made religion and baseless rituals and shallow repetition of recycled prayers and indoctrination of powerless words and practices do hold back and prevent true growth but don't mistake this for what true christianity is about, it so ain't so my brotha

The bible teaches in so many places to study to show oneself approved, to search out the truth and to test everything. Where are you getting this idea its all about blind and zombie-like devotion? I am a student of life and the bible, and I have barely scratched the surface of the things I need to learn to become what God had in mind when he created us. And I'll spend the rest of my life studying and thinking and pondering these things which all too often seem so unattainable.

Jesoul: So you're right even if all the science in the world proved tomorrow Noah's ark never existed, I'll still believe the biblical account - does this make me irrational? perhaps -

Tudór:

Present or past its the SAME god. And according to him he never changes.

BTW i never see you people quoting the new testament when you wanna get my tithes but in every other case you scream 'new covenant'

Chrisbenogor:

Sorry for the late reply, yes I believe because of mutually buttressed evidence, in principle you can check out that evidence by yourself and when a science book is wrong it eventually becomes discovered and corrected, this my dear does not happen with the holy books.

You miss the real meaning behind the question, I mean a huge tenet of christianity is faith, so the issue here is not whether it can happen but what will be your reaction if it were to happen. In order words if the evidence staring you in the face contradicts that which you believe by faith, which do you throw out?

I knew you would do this and fail to see why this argument pretty much seals the deal that either the bible is weird or the people that compiled it are dumb. Ever heard the words do not read the bible in isolation? One of the main reasons why I think it is weird is a combination of so many ideologies, this is why a happy content person would cherry pick a juicy part while someone looking for revenge against the enemy goes straight to the book of Joshua! Even you cannot be naive enough to believe that just that verse in the bible tells us how Christians are supposed to treat others

The point I was pushing across is that religious practices these days do not really give room for teaching kids to examine the evidence and come up with the answers, they hand the children a template (the bible) with which to guide their answers by.

To test everything but not the existence of God?

To search out the truth? Let me show you a few things you have said in this discourse
Can you see how those two statements contradict each other? If we tested everything like say Noah's story scientifically and show it could not have possibly happened ( which I suspect you know ) would you be picking the verse that asks you to test everything or you go with the one that says never doubt God?

JeSoul:


This is the biblical standard:
Gal 5:
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law

Acts 5:1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 


Act 5:2 With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet. 


Act 5:3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 


Act 5:4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." 


Act 5:5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 


Act 5:6 Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him. 


Act 5:7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 


Act 5:8 Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?" "Yes," she said, "that is the price." 


Act 5:9 Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also." 


Act 5:10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 


Acts5:11  Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events. 

JeSoul:

Testing the words of the bible and testing the things you're taught by men are two different things. Here lemme lay this out so there's no mix-up.

1. The bible/gospel is not meant (it can be) to be proven/tested - it is meant to be preached and either believed or not.

2. The words of men, teachings, traditions, 'religious practices' are to be vigorously tested and studied and proved true or false.

Now I know you're going to say aha #1 is blind devotion that doesn't make room for 'scientific validation'. You're right but also wrong. When people like me who have believed the bible, followed by the evidence of seeing the powerful hand of God on our daily lives and in our hearts as the effect of holding these beliefs - THIS IS THE TEST AND PROOF TO US!

Chrisbenogor:

For the sake of keeping our laser focus, let us concentrate on the above as it summaries all we have been saying. Can you give me something biblical to hold onto that buttresses number 1.

Number two on the other hand contradicts number one, the bible is made up of the words of men, teachings, traditions and yes religious practices.

Unless of course you believe that the bible is the undiluted word of God, then you will have to point out to me just why God stopped talking to man after the book of revelation.

You also need to throw more light on why the bible is different from what anyone can allege these days, I mean did God come down and write it himself?

In summary is there any parts of the bible that classifies as the words of men, teachings, traditions or religious practices?

Furthermore, you keep throwing in the whole personal experience thing and I keep pointing out to you that personal experiences can be really skewed, christians do not see jinns in their sleep, they see christian demons and they feel the power of God fighting the christian devil. So emm the personal experience trump card is kinda flashy but really achieves less.
Cheers.

P.S. Just Heard Micheal is Dead,

Chrisbenogor:

haba bindex, you no even wait small self, see as me I dey dodge all this scripture things since how is the flight kini going?
I can only blame who put the books together, they could have just skipped that part of the story and the bible would have made better sense.

JeSoul:

Bindex, yeye boy, how have you been?
Now as for your 'question', the answer is in verse 5. I always tell anyone who'll listen, God is just as loving as He is fearful, He dispenses mercy and grace with the same intensity He dispenses wrath and judgement.

JeSoul:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" 
John 20:29 "Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
John 17:20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

  Your opinion, many of us believe it is the word of God spoken thru men.
Who said God stopped talking? its more like men stopped listening. I hear Him and feel Him in my heart and spirit every day.

God spoke the bible, men simply transcribed it.
Once Paul made sure to stress an advice he was giving was his own personal view and not from God. Other than that no.
  In your view, perhaps.
To the rest of us christians this 'personal experience' is very real and tangible and is what shapes our lives. Is it subjective? absolutely. But does that dismiss it as irrelevant? absolutely not.

Yeah heard it too. Its def sad, I grew up doing the 'thriller' dance at every opportunity

Chrisbenogor:

First question is this why is belief so important, not whosoever is kind to fellow human beings, that is by the way side sha. Are you saying the above means the bible or Jesus' messages?
If God spoke the bible why then are there the many contradictions? Why is the old testament God vindictive and Jesus Christ a lot different? Christians are fond of using duct tape to put even parts that make the least bit of sense together.
Let us not even go too far, why do the gospels which I think is a big foundation of Christianity so contradictory? How come God contradicts himself?

I would proffer you a solution though, could it be that these men wrote how they feel about God? and not what "God" spoke? Just a thought,

Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 (New Living Translation)

Ecclesiastes 12

1 Don’t let the excitement of youth cause you to forget your Creator. Honor him in your youth before you grow old and say, “Life is not pleasant anymore.” 2 Remember him before the light of the sun, moon, and stars is dim to your old eyes, and rain clouds continually darken your sky. 3 Remember him before your legs—the guards of your house—start to tremble; and before your shoulders—the strong men—stoop. Remember him before your teeth—your few remaining servants—stop grinding; and before your eyes—the women looking through the windows—see dimly.

4 Remember him before the door to life’s opportunities is closed and the sound of work fades. Now you rise at the first chirping of the birds, but then all their sounds will grow faint.

5 Remember him before you become fearful of falling and worry about danger in the streets; before your hair turns white like an almond tree in bloom, and you drag along without energy like a dying grasshopper, and the caperberry no longer inspires sexual desire. Remember him before you near the grave, your everlasting home, when the mourners will weep at your funeral.

6 Yes, remember your Creator now while you are young, before the silver cord of life snaps and the golden bowl is broken. Don’t wait until the water jar is smashed at the spring and the pulley is broken at the well. 7 For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

JJYOU:

see if this makes sense to you

Chrisbenogor:

First question is this why is belief so important

Chrisbenogor:

First question is this why is belief so important, not whosoever is kind to fellow human beings

Are you saying the above means the bible or Jesus' messages?

If God spoke the bible why then are there the many contradictions?

Why is the old testament God vindictive and Jesus Christ a lot different? Christians are fond of using duct tape to put even parts that make the least bit of sense together.

Let us not even go too far, why do the gospels which I think is a big foundation of Christianity so contradictory? How come God contradicts himself?

I would proffer you a solution though, could it be that these men wrote how they feel about God? and not what "God" spoke? Just a thought,

bindex:

Jesoul I dey, hope you won't mind a trip to the caribbean? . How you dey? My best nairaland Christian.

m_nwankwo:

Hi JeSoul. I am fine my sister. And you? Thanks for your kind words. I also find your entries very interesting. Above all, you are a very honest and good human being. May God continue to strengthen you. I reached such a position following my experiences in material and non-material creations of God as well as through revelations given to my spirit by God. Stay blessed.

Abuzola:

Hehehe. Full of contradiction

Abuzola:

Hehehe. Full of contradiction