one of the favorite slanders of christians against Islam is that Prophet Muhammed is A pedophile. this is a rehash of a post on a different thread.


the gist of the argument is as follows

1) aisha was sexually immature
2) it was not done during that time - ie Muhammed went against the laws of the land

let me start with the wikipedia entries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

Aisha was initially betrothed to Jubayr ibn Mut'im, a Muslim whose father, though pagan, was friendly to the Muslims. When Khawla bint Hakim suggested that Muhammad marry Aisha after the death of Muhammad's first wife (Khadijah bint Khuwaylid), the previous agreement regarding marriage of Aisha with ibn Mut'im was put aside by common consent.[1] British historian William Montgomery Watt suggests that Muhammad hoped to strengthen his ties with Abu Bakr;[1] the strengthening of ties commonly served as a basis for marriage in Arabian culture.[2]

According to the traditional sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad.[1][3][4] American historian Denise Spellberg states that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity."[3] This issue of her virginity was of great importance to early historians who supported the Abbasid Caliphate. These historians considered that as Muhammad's only virgin wife, Aisha was divinely intended for him, and therefore the most credible regarding the debate over the succession to Muhammad.[3]

Aisha stayed in her parents' home for several years until she joined Muhammad and the marriage was consummated.[1][3][4][5][6][7] Most of the sources indicate that she was nine years old at the time, with the single exception of al-Tabari, who records that she was ten.[3] The marriage was delayed until after the Hijra, or migration to Medina, in 622; Aisha and her older sister Asma bint Abi Bakr only moved to Medina after Muhammad had already migrated there. After this, the wedding was celebrated very simply. The sources do not offer much more information about Aisha's childhood years, but mention that after the wedding, she continued to play with her toys, and that Muhammad entered into the spirit of these games.[8]

[edit] Status as "favorite wife"

Most early accounts say that Muhammad and Aisha became sincerely fond of each other. Aisha is usually described as Muhammad's favorite wife, and it was in her company that Muhammad reportedly received the most revelations.[9] Some accounts claim it was the curtain from her tent that Muhammad used as his battle standard.[10]

[edit] Accusation of adultery

Aisha was traveling with her husband Muhammad and some of his followers. Aisha claimed that she had left camp in the morning to search for her lost necklace, but when she returned, she found that the company had broken camp and left without her. She waited for half a day, until she was rescued by a man named Safwan ibn Al-Muattal and taken to rejoin the caravan. This led to speculation that she had committed adultery with Safwan. Muhammad's adopted son Zayd ibn Harithah defended Aisha's reputation. Shortly after this, Muhammad announced that he had received a revelation from God confirming Aisha's innocence and directing that charges of adultery be supported by four eyewitnesses.[11] These verses also rebuked Aisha's accusers,[12] whom Muhammad ordered to receive forty lashes.

the highlighted refute the claims by christians that these things were not done then. she was bethrothed to someone else, she was accused of adultery with someone else.


Aisha was often referred to as Prophet Muhammed´s favorite.A pedophile is a man sexually attracted to Children, If as is so often Claimed, Muhammed was a pedophile, he would have tired of Aisha as she matured. Furthermore, there is no evidence of any other children ´seduced´/ raped' by Prophet M'ohd. There is plenty on record to show that Pedophiles are serial perverts in nature (just look at the records of catholic pederast priests-did they stop at molesting only one child each?


offtopic

Mary was 14 when she gave birth to jesus .as you know, at the time she was suspected of being promiscuos.Joseph is estimated to be anything from 35 to 90 years when he married her. no one seemed to think that strange in that time.No one, apparently thought it strange that a 13/14 year old could be pregnant.no one suspectd that she´d been raped or molested. If a 14 year old was pregnant today, it´d be all about VVF, rape, etc. but the surrounding facts about Mary indicate that it was not strange in their time for girls to give birth at 14, or marry men 20 years older than them.perhaps, that too like the modset dress of women of the time was based on the weather( as osisi likes to claim )

the following are several hadiths on Aisha:

Adu-Dawood(124)
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin

Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin"/>

Khallas al-Hujari reported: Aisha said: I and the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him)
used to pass night in one (piece of) cloth (on me) while I menstruated profusely. If anything
from me (i.e. blood) smeared him (i.e. his body), he would wash that spot and would not
exceed it (in washing), then he would offer prayer with it.


Adu-Dawood(125)
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin

Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin"/>

Umarah ibn Ghurab said that his paternal aunt narrated to him that she asked Aisha:
What if one of us menstruates and she and her husband have no bed except one? She
replied: I relate to you what the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) had done. One night
he entered (upon me) while I was menstruating. He went to the place of his prayer, that is,
to the place of prayer reserved (for this purpose) in his house. He did not return until I felt
asleep heavily, and he felt pain from cold. And he said: Come near me. I said: I am
menstruating. He said: Uncover your thighs. I, therefore, uncovered both of my thighs. Then
he put his cheek and chest on my thighs and I lent upon he until he became warm and
slept.

Al-Bukhari(1.293)

Narrated Al Qasim

'Aisha said, "We set out with the sole intention of performing Hajj and when we reached
Sarif, (a place six miles from Mecca) I got my menses. Allah's Apostle came to me while I
was weeping. He said 'What is the matter with you? Have you got your menses?' I replied,
'Yes.' He said, 'This is a thing which Allah has ordained for the daughters of Adam. So do
what all the pilgrims do with the exception of the Tawaf (Circumambulation) round the
Ka'ba.' " 'Aisha added, "Allah's Apostle sacrificed cows on behalf of his wives."


Al-Bukhari(3.348)
Narrated Aisha

Aisha"/>

Rarely did the Prophet fail to visit Abu Bakr's house everyday, either in the morning or in the
evening. When the permission for migration to Medina was granted, all of a sudden the
Prophet came to us at noon and Abu Bakr was informed, who said, "Certainly the Prophet
has come for some urgent matter." The Prophet said to Abu Bakr, when the latter entered,
"Let nobody stay in your home." Abu Bakr said, "O Allah's Apostle! There are only my two
daughters (namely 'Aisha and Asma') present." The Prophet said, "I feel (am informed)
that I have been granted the permission for migration." Abu Bakr said, "I will accompany
you, O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet said, "You will accompany me." Abu Bakr then said "O
Allah's Apostle! I have two she-camels I have prepared specially for migration, so I offer
you one of them." The Prophet said, "I have accepted it on the condition that I will pay its price."



Al-Bukhari(5.236)
Narrated Hishams father

Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two
years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he
consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_in_Medina

Hijra to Medina
Main articles: Hijra (Islam) and Muhammad in Medina

Quote
A delegation from Medina, consisting of the representatives of the twelve important clans of Medina, invited Muhammad as a neutral outsider to Medina to serve as the chief arbitrator for the entire community.[1][2] There was fighting in Yathrib mainly involving its Arab and Jewish inhabitants for around a hundred years before 620.[1] The recurring slaughters and disagreements over the resulting claims, especially after the battle of Bu'ath in which all the clans were involved, made it obvious to them that the tribal conceptions of blood-feud and an eye for an eye were no longer workable unless there was one man with authority to adjudicate in disputed cases.[1] The delegation from Medina pledged themselves and their fellow-citizens to accept Muhammad into their community and physically protect him as one of themselves.[3]

Muhammad instructed his followers to emigrate to Medina until virtually all of his followers had left Mecca. Being alarmed at the departure of Muslims, according to the tradition, the Meccans plotted to assassinate him. With the help of Ali, however, he fooled the Meccans who were watching him, and secretly slipped away from the town.[4] By 622, Muhammad had emigrated to Medina, then known as Yathrib, a large agricultural oasis.[3] Following the emigration, the Meccans seized the properties of the Muslim emigrants in Mecca.[5]

Wikisource has original text related to this article:
Medina Charter

Among the things Muhammad did in order to settle down the longstanding grievances among the tribes of Medina was drafting a document known as the Constitution of Medina (date debated), "establishing a kind of alliance or federation" among the eight Medinan tribes and Muslim emigrants from Mecca, which specified the rights and duties of all citizens and the relationship of the different communities in Medina (including that of the Muslim community to other communities specifically the Jews and other "Peoples of the Book".[1][2] The community defined in the Constitution of Medina, umma, had a religious outlook but was also shaped by the practical considerations and substantially preserved the legal forms of the old Arab tribes.[3] Muhammad also adopted some features of the Jewish worship and customs such as fasting on the Yom Kippur day. According to Alford Welch, the Jewish practice of having three daily prayer rituals appears to have been a factor in the introduction of the Islamic midday prayer (previously Muhammad was keeping the morning and evening prayers). Welch thinks that Muhammad's adoption of facing north towards Jerusalem when performing the daily prayers (qibla) however need not to necessarily be a borrowing from the Jews as the reports about the direction of prayer before migration to Medina are contradictory and further this direction of prayer was also practiced among other groups in Arabia.

The first group of pagan converts to Islam in Medina were the clans who had not produced great leaders for themselves but had suffered from warlike leaders from other clans. This was followed by the general acceptance of Islam by the pagan population of Medina, apart from some exception. This was according to Ibn Ishaq influenced by the conversion of Sa'd ibn Muadh, one of the prominent leaders in Medina to Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

Quote
excerpts

Conquest of Mecca
Main articles: Conquest of Mecca and Muhammad after the conquest of Mecca

The Kaaba in Mecca held a major economic and religious role for the area. It became the Muslim Qibla (prayer direction).

An artist's 16th-century depiction of Muhammad and his companions advancing on Mecca. The angels Gabriel, Michael, Israfil and Azrail, are also in the painting.

Muhammad prohibits intercalary months during the Farewell Pilgrimage. 17th century Ottoman copy of a 14th century (Ilkhanate) manuscript (Edinburgh codex). Illustration of Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī's The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries.

The Mosque of the Prophet (Al-Masjid al-Nabawi) is Islam's second most sacred site. The green dome in the background stands above Muhammad's tomb.

The truce of Hudaybiyya had been enforced for two years.[125][126] The tribe of Banu Khuza'a had good relations with Muhammad, whereas their enemies, the Banu Bakr, had an alliance with the Meccans.[125][126] A clan of the Bakr made a night raid against the Khuz'aah, killing a few of them.[125][126] The Meccans helped the Banu Bakr with weapons and, according to some sources, a few Meccans also took part in the fighting.[125] After this event, Muhammad sent a message to Mecca with three conditions, asking them to accept one of them. These were that either the Meccans paid blood money for those slain among the Khuza'ah tribe; or, that they should disavow themselves of the Banu Bakr; or, that they should declare the truce of Hudaybiyya null.[127]

The Meccans replied that they would accept only the last condition.[127] However, soon they realized their mistake and sent Abu Sufyan to renew the Hudaybiyya treaty, but now his request was declined by Muhammad.

Muhammad began to prepare for a campaign.[128] In 630, Muhammad marched on Mecca with an enormous force, said to number more than ten thousand men. With minimal casualties, Muhammad took control of Mecca.[129] He declared an amnesty for past offences, except for ten men and women who had mocked and ridiculed him in songs and verses. Some of these were later pardoned.[130] Most Meccans converted to Islam and Muhammad subsequently destroyed all the statues of Arabian gods in and around the Kaaba.[131][132] The Qur'an discusses the conquest of Mecca

the purpose of the above wikipedia inserts is to establish a timeline

prophet Muhammed was in Medina for eight years from 622 to 630

Quote
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two
years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he
consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

based on this, aisha was nine years old by 3 years into Prophet Muhammed (PBUH)'s stay in medina. she would have been 14 by the time they left medina.

so what age was she when the records of menstruation came about? so unless she started menustrating at the very end of their years in median, she was sexually mature during those years.




also:

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Aisha#Indirect_evidence_of_older_age

Quote
Indirect evidence of older age
According to Ibn Hisham's recension of Ibn Ishaq's (d. 768) biography of Prophet Muhammad, the Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, Aisha accepted Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab. If true, then Aisha accepted Islam during its infancy. She could not have been less than 14 years in 1 A.H.—the time she got married. Sira, Ibn Hisham, Vol. 1, 227
Tabari reports that when Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Ethiopia (eight years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am - with whose son Aisha was engaged at that time - and asked him to take Aisha as his son's wife. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam. If Aisha was only six years old at the time of her betrothal to Muhammad, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Ethiopia. Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, 38
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre Islamic period. If Aisha was born in the period of Jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 A.H. Tarikh al-umam wa al-mamloo'k, Al-Tabari, Vol. 4, 50
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was 35 years old. Muhammad migrated to Medina when he was 52, making Aisha 14 years old in 1 A.H. Tamyeez al-Sahaabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalaniy, Vol. 4, 377

Note: Muslim tradition generally says that Aisha was six years old when married to Muhammad, and that this marriage took place in 1 A.H. All of the above arguments are based on the hypothesis that —as reported by the original sources —the age at which Aisha was married is wrong, while the time at which she married (in the same sources) is correct.

in todays world and culture it is unacceptable to marry underaged girls, and i am fully in support of that.

just as slavery is unacceptable in today's world, it does not change the fact that there is no biblical opposotion to it, and that it is thus perfectly legitimate from a christian viewpoint.

Neither Jesus nor St. Paul, nor any other Biblical figure is recorded as saying anything in opposition to the institution of slavery. Slavery was very much a part of life in Palestine and in the rest of the Roman Empire during New Testament times. The practice continued in England, Canada and the rest of the English Empire until the early 19th century; it continued in the U.S. until later in the 19th century.

Quoting Rabbi M.J. Raphall, circa 1861:

"Receiving slavery as one of the conditions of society, the New Testament nowhere interferes with or contradicts the slave code of Moses; it even preserves a letter [to Philemon] written by one of the most eminent Christian teachers [Paul] to a slave owner on sending back to him his runaway slave." 1


Paul's violation of the Mosaic Code on slavery:

While in prison, Paul met a runaway slave, Onesimus, the property of a Christian -- presumably Pheliemon. He sent the slave back to his owner. This action is forbidden in Deuteronomy 23:15-16:

"Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee."

"He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him."

Rather than give the slave sanctuary, Paul returned him to his owner. Paul seems to hint that he would like Pheliemon to give Onesimus his freedom, but does not actually request it. See the Letter to Philemon in the Christian Scriptures.


Other references to slavery in the Christian Scriptures:

People in debt (and their children) were still being sold into slavery in the first century CE: Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."


Priests still owned slaves: Mark 14:66: "And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:"


Jesus is recorded as mentioning slaves in one of his parables. It is important to realize that the term "servant" or "maid" in the King James Version of the Bible refers to slaves, not employees like a butler, cook, or maid. Here, a slave which did not follow his owner's will would be beaten with many lashes of a whip. A slave who was unaware of his owner's will, but who did not behave properly, would also be beaten, but with fewer stripes.

This would have been a marvelous opportunity for Jesus to condemn the institution of slavery and its abuse of slaves. But he is not recorded of having bothered to taken it: Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."


One of the favorite passages of slave-owning Christians was St. Paul's infamous instruction that slaves to obey their owners in the same way that they obey Christ: Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."


Other passages instructing slaves and slave owners in proper behavior are: Colossians 4:1: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"


In his defense, St. Paul incorrectly expected that Jesus would return in the very near future. This might have demotivated him from speaking out against slavery or other social evils in the Roman Empire. Also he regarded slaves as persons of worth whom at least God considers of importance. St. Paul mentioned that both slaves and free persons are sons of God, and thus all part of the body of Christ and spiritually equal. 1 Corinthians 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Colossians 3:11: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."


Paul apparently saw no evil in the concept of one person owning another as a piece of property. In his Letter to Philemon, he had every opportunity to discuss the immorality of slave-owning, but declined to do so.

1Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum.

2And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die.

3And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.

4And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this:

5For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.

6Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:

7Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.

8For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

9When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

10And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

11And it came to pass the day after, that he went into a city called Nain; and many of his disciples went with him, and much people.

12Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.

13And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not.

14And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.

15And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.

16And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

17And this rumour of him went forth throughout all Judaea, and throughout all the region round about.

18And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things.

the point here is that Christianity too, has allowed/failed to condemn practices that are not acceptable in the world as we know it.

is wikipedia more reliable than the haddith?

noetic, it is truly sad that you are unable to read and process information.

i sincerely hope for your sake, that whetever job you work on does not involve analysis

oyb:

noetic, it is truly sad that you are unable to read and process information.

i sincerely hope for your sake, that whetever job you work on does not involve analysis

I asked a simple question. so why EXACTLY are u rambling.

is wikipedia more reliable than the haddith? you can answer either yes or no.

here we are :

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm

Sources

The chief sources of information on the life of St. Joseph are the first chapters of our first and third Gospels; they are practically also the only reliable sources, for, whilst, on the holy patriarch's life, as on many other points connected with the Saviour's history which are left untouched by the canonical writings, the apocryphal literature is full of details, the non-admittance of these works into the Canon of the Sacred Books casts a strong suspicion upon their contents; and, even granted that some of the facts recorded by them may be founded on trustworthy traditions, it is in most instances next to impossible to discern and sift these particles of true history from the fancies with which they are associated. Among these apocryphal productions dealing more or less extensively with some episodes of St. Joseph's life may be noted the so-called "Gospel of James", the "Pseudo-Matthew", the "Gospel of the Nativity of the Virgin Mary", the "Story of Joseph the Carpenter", and the "Life of the Virgin and Death of Joseph".
Genealogy

St. Matthew (1:16) calls St. Joseph the son of Jacob; according to St. Luke (3:23), Heli was his father. This is not the place to recite the many and most various endeavours to solve the vexing questions arising from the divergences between both genealogies; nor is it necessary to point out the explanation which meets best all the requirements of the problem (see GENEALOGY OF CHRIST); suffice it to remind the reader that, contrary to what was once advocated, most modern writers readily admit that in both documents we possess the genealogy of Joseph, and that it is quite possible to reconcile their data.
Residence

At any rate, Bethlehem, the city of David and his descendants, appears to have been the birth-place of Joseph. When, however, the Gospel history opens, namely, a few months before the Annunciation, Joseph was settled at Nazareth. Why and when he forsook his home-place to betake himself to Galilee is not ascertained; some suppose -- and the supposition is by no means improbable -- that the then-moderate circumstances of the family and the necessity of earning a living may have brought about the change. St. Joseph, indeed, was a tekton, as we learn from Matthew 13:55, and Mark 6:3. The word means both mechanic in general and carpenter in particular; St. Justin vouches for the latter sense (Dialogue with Trypho 88), and tradition has accepted this interpretation, which is followed in the English Bible.
Marriage

It is probably at Nazareth that Joseph betrothed and married her who was to become the Mother of God. When the marriage took place, whether before or after the Incarnation, is no easy matter to settle, and on this point the masters of exegesis have at all times been at variance. Most modern commentators, following the footsteps of St. Thomas, understand that, at the epoch of the Annunciation, the Blessed Virgin was only affianced to Joseph; as St. Thomas notices, this interpretation suits better all the evangelical data.

It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph's marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's brother". A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place. These dreams, as St. Jerome styles them, from which many a Christian artist has drawn his inspiration (see, for instance, Raphael's "Espousals of the Virgin", are void of authority; they nevertheless acquired in the course of ages some popularity; in them some ecclesiastical writers sought the answer to the well-known difficulty arising from the mention in the Gospel of "the Lord's brothers"; from them also popular credulity has, contrary to all probability, as well as to the tradition witnessed by old works of art, retained the belief that St. Joseph was an old man at the time of marriage with the Mother of God.
The Incarnation

This marriage, true and complete, was, in the intention of the spouses, to be virgin marriage (cf. St. Augustine, "De cons. Evang.", II, i in P.L. XXXIV, 1071-72; "Cont. Julian.", V, xii, 45 in P.L. XLIV, 810; St. Thomas, III:28; III:29:2). But soon was the faith of Joseph in his spouse to be sorely tried: she was with child. However painful the discovery must have been for him, unaware as he was of the mystery of the Incarnation, his delicate feelings forbade him to defame his affianced, and he resolved "to put her away privately; but while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost. . . And Joseph, rising from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife" (Matthew 1:19, 20, 24).
The Nativity and the flight to Egypt

A few months later, the time came for Joseph and Mary to go to Bethlehem, to be enrolled, according to the decree issued by Caesar Augustus: a new source of anxiety for Joseph, for "her days were accomplished, that she should be delivered", and "there was no room for them in the inn (Luke 2:1-7). What must have been the thoughts of the holy man at the birth of the Saviour, the coming of the shepherds and of the wise men, and at the events which occurred at the time of the Presentation of Jesus in the Temple, we can merely guess; St. Luke tells only that he was "wondering at those things which were spoken concerning him" (2:33). New trials were soon to follow. The news that a king of the Jews was born could not but kindle in the wicked heart of the old and bloody tyrant, Herod, the fire of jealousy. Again "an angel of the Lord appeared in sleep to Joseph, saying: Arise, and take the child and his mother, and fly into Egypt: and be there until I shall tell thee" (Matthew 2:13).

so, even before the time of Muhammed, 90 year old men marrying 12 to 14 year olds and suspecting them of adultery.

you are missing the entire point, cos I doubt that u understand the issues involved.



a. Define a paedophile?
b. is wikipedia more reliable than the haddiths?

@ noetic, thread derailer  

i am waiting for osisi and davidylan. you hav e demonstrated that you are nothing but rabble that follows them . you have a lot to learn, your masters break down threads.

since the art of debate is alien to you, let me break it down, i used wikipedia to establish timelines.

but please do tell, what kind of diety sires children from his immature children  

could your god in all his ability and infinite wisdom not have found an er adult to bear his child? i mean, he created adam and eve out of air, why not his er 'begotten' son

you are missing the entire point, cos I doubt that u understand the issues involved.

a. Define a paedophile?
b. is wikipedia more reliable than the haddiths?

noetic, i challenge you to post the hadiths that the wikipedia article is contradicting, if you can . _{what do you know of the hadith - beyond copy and pasting from the internet}

or did your slow brain perhaps miss the hadiths on aisha's menses?

oyb:

@ noetic, thread derailer  

i am waiting for osisi and davidylan. you hav e demonstrated that you are nothing but rabble that follows them . you have a lot to learn, your masters break down threads.

since the art of debate is alien to you, let me break it down, i used wikipedia to establish timelines.

but please do tell, what kind of diety sires children from his immature children  

could your god in all his ability and infinite wisdom not have found an er adult to bear his child? i mean, he created adam and eve out of air, why not his er 'begotten' son

Why are u always so ERRATIC? what has all of ur ramblings got to do with the thread?
why do u have a problem answering the 2 simple questions asked.

noetic, i challenge you to post the hadiths that the wikipedia article is contradicting, if you can . _{what do you know of the hadith - beyond copy and pasting from the internet}

or did your slow brain perhaps miss the hadiths on aisha's menses?

The haddiths have been posted millions of times on this forum.

please answer my questions and lets forge ahead.

something truly weird keeps happening. my posts keep disappearing

i posted this and its gone

here we are :

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm

Sources

The chief sources of information on the life of St. Joseph are the first chapters of our first and third Gospels; they are practically also the only reliable sources, for, whilst, on the holy patriarch's life, as on many other points connected with the Saviour's history which are left untouched by the canonical writings, the apocryphal literature is full of details, the non-admittance of these works into the Canon of the Sacred Books casts a strong suspicion upon their contents; and, even granted that some of the facts recorded by them may be founded on trustworthy traditions, it is in most instances next to impossible to discern and sift these particles of true history from the fancies with which they are associated. Among these apocryphal productions dealing more or less extensively with some episodes of St. Joseph's life may be noted the so-called "Gospel of James", the "Pseudo-Matthew", the "Gospel of the Nativity of the Virgin Mary", the "Story of Joseph the Carpenter", and the "Life of the Virgin and Death of Joseph".
Genealogy

St. Matthew (1:16) calls St. Joseph the son of Jacob; according to St. Luke (3:23), Heli was his father. This is not the place to recite the many and most various endeavours to solve the vexing questions arising from the divergences between both genealogies; nor is it necessary to point out the explanation which meets best all the requirements of the problem (see GENEALOGY OF CHRIST); suffice it to remind the reader that, contrary to what was once advocated, most modern writers readily admit that in both documents we possess the genealogy of Joseph, and that it is quite possible to reconcile their data.
Residence

At any rate, Bethlehem, the city of David and his descendants, appears to have been the birth-place of Joseph. When, however, the Gospel history opens, namely, a few months before the Annunciation, Joseph was settled at Nazareth. Why and when he forsook his home-place to betake himself to Galilee is not ascertained; some suppose -- and the supposition is by no means improbable -- that the then-moderate circumstances of the family and the necessity of earning a living may have brought about the change. St. Joseph, indeed, was a tekton, as we learn from Matthew 13:55, and Mark 6:3. The word means both mechanic in general and carpenter in particular; St. Justin vouches for the latter sense (Dialogue with Trypho 88), and tradition has accepted this interpretation, which is followed in the English Bible.
Marriage

It is probably at Nazareth that Joseph betrothed and married her who was to become the Mother of God. When the marriage took place, whether before or after the Incarnation, is no easy matter to settle, and on this point the masters of exegesis have at all times been at variance. Most modern commentators, following the footsteps of St. Thomas, understand that, at the epoch of the Annunciation, the Blessed Virgin was only affianced to Joseph; as St. Thomas notices, this interpretation suits better all the evangelical data.

It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph's marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's brother". A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place. These dreams, as St. Jerome styles them, from which many a Christian artist has drawn his inspiration (see, for instance, Raphael's "Espousals of the Virgin", are void of authority; they nevertheless acquired in the course of ages some popularity; in them some ecclesiastical writers sought the answer to the well-known difficulty arising from the mention in the Gospel of "the Lord's brothers"; from them also popular credulity has, contrary to all probability, as well as to the tradition witnessed by old works of art, retained the belief that St. Joseph was an old man at the time of marriage with the Mother of God.
The Incarnation

This marriage, true and complete, was, in the intention of the spouses, to be virgin marriage (cf. St. Augustine, "De cons. Evang.", II, i in P.L. XXXIV, 1071-72; "Cont. Julian.", V, xii, 45 in P.L. XLIV, 810; St. Thomas, III:28; III:29:2). But soon was the faith of Joseph in his spouse to be sorely tried: she was with child. However painful the discovery must have been for him, unaware as he was of the mystery of the Incarnation, his delicate feelings forbade him to defame his affianced, and he resolved "to put her away privately; but while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost. . . And Joseph, rising from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife" (Matthew 1:19, 20, 24).
The Nativity and the flight to Egypt

A few months later, the time came for Joseph and Mary to go to Bethlehem, to be enrolled, according to the decree issued by Caesar Augustus: a new source of anxiety for Joseph, for "her days were accomplished, that she should be delivered", and "there was no room for them in the inn (Luke 2:1-7). What must have been the thoughts of the holy man at the birth of the Saviour, the coming of the shepherds and of the wise men, and at the events which occurred at the time of the Presentation of Jesus in the Temple, we can merely guess; St. Luke tells only that he was "wondering at those things which were spoken concerning him" (2:33). New trials were soon to follow. The news that a king of the Jews was born could not but kindle in the wicked heart of the old and bloody tyrant, Herod, the fire of jealousy. Again "an angel of the Lord appeared in sleep to Joseph, saying: Arise, and take the child and his mother, and fly into Egypt: and be there until I shall tell thee" (Matthew 2:13).

so, even before the time of Muhammed, 90 year old men marrying 12 to 14 year olds and suspecting them of adultery.  

how long will this last?

i am waiting for better people than this child who has made it clear that he is nothing but a mischevious kid

noetic, are you a coward, post the hadiths again

which of you posted this several times. anyway, what does one expect . you lot have demonstrated that you cherry pick your bible, why wouldn't you cherry pick the hadith

google aisha accused of adultery. google aisha's bethrotal.

or are you a liar?

Adu-Dawood(124)
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin

Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin"/>

Khallas al-Hujari reported: Aisha said: I and the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him)
used to pass night in one (piece of) cloth (on me) while I menstruated profusely. If anything
from me (i.e. blood) smeared him (i.e. his body), he would wash that spot and would not
exceed it (in washing), then he would offer prayer with it.


Adu-Dawood(125)
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin

Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin"/>

Umarah ibn Ghurab said that his paternal aunt narrated to him that she asked Aisha:
What if one of us menstruates and she and her husband have no bed except one? She
replied: I relate to you what the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) had done. One night
he entered (upon me) while I was menstruating. He went to the place of his prayer, that is,
to the place of prayer reserved (for this purpose) in his house. He did not return until I felt
asleep heavily, and he felt pain from cold. And he said: Come near me. I said: I am
menstruating. He said: Uncover your thighs. I, therefore, uncovered both of my thighs. Then
he put his cheek and chest on my thighs and I lent upon he until he became warm and
slept.

Al-Bukhari(1.293)


hmm explain how a sexually immature woman menustrates . anyway, i'm off. i hope you saw my posts about how mary being 12 to 14 when she married joseph, and joseph suspecting her of adultery when she took in. makes one wonder about the hypocrisy of you lot.

i will just post the link this time, as it seems that there is a forum bot that keeps deleting my posts .(now if i was a christian i would commence whining and rolling on the floor )

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm

It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph's marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's brother". A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place. These dreams, as St. Jerome styles them, from which many a Christian artist has drawn his inspiration (see, for instance,

This marriage, true and complete, was, in the intention of the spouses, to be virgin marriage (cf. St. Augustine, "De cons. Evang.", II, i in P.L. XXXIV, 1071-72; "Cont. Julian.", V, xii, 45 in P.L. XLIV, 810; St. Thomas, III:28; III:29:2). But soon was the faith of Joseph in his spouse to be sorely tried: she was with child

admin, wetin dey happen as you dey delete my posts?

WHY DO U LOVE EMBARRASSING ALLAH AND MOHAMMED EVERY DAY?

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.

Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari 5.234
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915,  also   Number 4916  and   Number 4917
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
   Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
   'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 33
Narrated 'Aisha:
I never felt so jealous of any woman as I did of Khadija, though she had died three years before the Prophet married me, and that was because I heard him mentioning her too often, and because his Lord had ordered him to give her the glad tidings that she would have a palace in Paradise, made of Qasab and because he used to slaughter a sheep and distribute its meat among her friends.

SO CAN U NOW ANSWER MY QUESTIONS?

where is OYB and his tails

come and answer my questions now.

yes

and if you care to read, _idiot you will find that i have not denied any of that. I have simply included hadith and reference that you liars for jesus so steadfastly miss during your 'research'


i have provided evidence that aisha was betrothed to someone before muhammed. i have provided evidence that she was accused of adultery, both of which refute your ridiculous any typically christian claims that 'it was not done during that time'

i have provided hadiths showing that she was sexually mature , contrary to your other absurd claims.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915,  also   Number 4916  and   Number 4917
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

can you see how you people keep falling over each other with your lies 

so when did the thighing at six years you were screaming about on the other thread occur 

the more i read from you lot, the more i thank Allah I am a muslim. bunch of confusded liars  . no wonder you can't get any of your stories straight.

oyb:

yes

and if you care to read, _idiot you will find that i have not denied any of that. I have simply included hadith and reference that you liars for jesus so steadfastly miss during your 'research'


i have provided evidence that aisha was betrothed to someone before muhammed. i have provided evidence that she was accused of adultery, both of which refute your ridiculous any typically christian claims that 'it was not done during that time'

i have provided hadiths showing that she was sexually mature , contrary to your other absurd claims.

can you see how you people keep falling over each other with your lies 

so when did the thighing at six years you were screaming about on the other thread occur 

the more i read from you lot, the more i thank Allah I am a muslim. bunch of confusded liars  . no wonder you can't get any of your stories straight.

whats the meaning of all these RUBBISH? its no longer news that mohammed was a paedophile.

can u please answer my two questions?

where is oyb and his shameless tails?

Oyb you are a sick fellow!
When did a 9 year girl become sexually mature? Are you drunk?
I wonder what her alleged adultery has to do with the issue at hand. . . .it only goes to show there were other paedophiles around willing to sleep with a child. Your prophet wasn't alone.

@OYB
I have come to conclude that these people either have very low IQ or they do not know the meaning of a paedophile or they just like to be nasty (I'm trying to refrain from using unpleasant words) like they have always been.

If a man LEGALLY marries a woman (the bride in question being handed over to the man by the bride's mother herself!!). This marriage happened in his country, culture and most importantly TIME (i.e GENERATION)[/color]. It doesn't end their, the man waits for THREE (3) GOOD YEARS - ie marrige at 6yrs and cohabitation at 9yrs -before having anything with her[color=#990000]. Then, close to 1500years later, some incompus come around to tag that man as a paedophile, to say the least this simply show how ignorant they are of the typical traits of a paedophile.

However, what I usually like to do is ask them the age their holy ghost got mother of their god (i.e Mary  ASW) pregnant. Remember the verse says something like descending (sorry I don't have the time to check and quote the verse). For the records MARY, THE MOTHER OF JESUS (ASW) CONCIEVED AT THE AGE OF 12+YRS. BEFORE SHE WAS MARRIED OFF TO JOSEPH who by the way was 90yrs at the time

Inspite of this well-known documented fact (Catholic references are available confirming this), I will be the last to call God (wether you call HIM holy ghost or not) a paedophile. The reason should be simple enough for anybody with over 1-digit IQ to realise that IT WAS NORMAL AT THAT TIME (OVER 2000 YEARS AGO) FOR GIRLS OF THAT AGE TO BE MARRIED OFF. - PERIOD!!

It was perfectly allowed within the two cultures and generations (i.e Muhammed's saw and Mary's asw). That explains why there were no objections what-so-ever from anywhere especially considering the fact that Muhammed (saw) lived within very hostile communities constantly looking for escuses to pounce on him and his followers. If this was out of place poeple would have reacted (for both cases) and it would have been documented.

Till this day nobody has ever come up with facts saying that the act was abnormal in that society and at the time. All they have been posting are hadiths that do not in anyway support their false claims.

@Quadrey: I was responding to your "pedophilia/pedophile" thread, but they were locked at both Christian and muslim Forums. Take time to read and don't listen to the "Kafiruun" anywhere on earth. Alah had ordained what he had ordained. May Allah strengten your heart on Islam Amin.

Was a prophet capable of child abuse? No. Was Abu Bakr not a nobility of makka? Yes. Would he be party to his own daughter's abuse, after he has accepted islam? No. Is it in the Character of the noble Prophet to abuse anyone, including slave and servants even before Islam? No. Ask zaid his slave who he adopted because he prefered the Messenger over his own good father.

Is it then possible to then abuse a free born daughter of the wealthiest man in Makka at that a time? No! Now then, is sexual maturity an age thing? No. For those who say yes, please furnish me the age in Igbo land, versus the bemba land, versus the hausa land, versus the Yoruba land, Versus the tuareg land, Versus the Moors of Morocco, versus the Soyinkeh of Mali, versus the Julah of Mali, Vesus the Bambara of Guinea and versus the mandigo of gambia and versus the Phular of Mauretania, versus the Ashante of Ghana? Yet I have not even scratched the surface of the many african tribal people? What about the Massai, the many tribes of South Africa and napal?

Only an ignorant soul will make such a claim that you hear and read the Christians and Jews and their cohorts making about my beloved Messenger! I know how much I love women and through Muhammad (AS), my sexuality is limitted to who belong to be! There is no way that HIV/AIDS, InshaAllah can reach me! Thank Allah (SWA) for blessing me with His Idayah and making me follow Muhammad (AS) His beloved Messenger and Prophet!


@Pureloic: Where is your logic? Please copy Jesus who was a bachelor and see what becomes of your branch in the family tree, say 100 years from now! And if you can't copy Jesus in this very single matter, know that you are not true to Jesus!

Can any Christian defines a pedophile for us? Is it by age or by characteristics? That characteristic if it is, I will like to know. And does it stop at just one person, if actually that is her age, or his age?

A young woman in Ibadan, one of the Osinnuga's died many years ago. About two years ago, my cousin was telling me about her. Surprisingly, she said that she and this late girl were just a year apart. It was a surprise to me, because the girl was so small in those days that you would have thought that she was a mere 11 year old by 1975, and almost out of high school then! My cousin is now 50 years old, last September!

The young woman's tiny stature fooled even those who knew her at birth! She did not look her age at all, and for those reasons, she was overlooked by possible suitors, in England, in the 80s and died ever as a spinster!

Was Aisha not a sickly and frail woman, considering the circumstances, she might have looked like a six year old, which is what she meant rather than saying that she was sactually a six year old woman! This is my singular reason for asking people to tell us when she was born, relative to when the first revelation came down!

Can the Christian please do the research, before I present my case against your lies? We the muslims are happy at whatever age she is. She had benefitted us greately (RA)!

Copy Jesus and remain single please! And none of you is a true believer until you copy Jesus in his marital abstainance!


Is Wikipedia more reliable that ahadith? No, except if the ahadith is weak and there is no possibility for it to be an ahadith! I have many like that that does not fit the characteristics of the prophet!

Please provide us a character description of a pedophile. I already have one good and complete description, which none of its aspects does not fit Muhammad. Please get us your version that can fit him. Go to scotland yard, and see the MI5/6 for a good and comprehensive description. They aught to know better than you. No?

olabowale:

@Quadrey: I was responding to your "pedophilia/pedophile" thread, but they were locked at both Christian and muslim Forums. Take time to read and don't listen to the "Kafiruun" anywhere on earth. Alah had ordained what he had ordained. May Allah strengten your heart on Islam Amin.

Was a prophet capable of child abuse? No. Was Abu Bakr not a nobility of makka? Yes. Would he be party to his own daughter's abuse, after he has accepted islam? No. Is it in the Character of the noble Prophet to abuse anyone, including slave and servants even before Islam? No. Ask zaid his slave who he adopted because he prefered the Messenger over his own good father.

Is it then possible to then abuse a free born daughter of the wealthiest man in Makka at that a time? No! Now then, is sexual maturity an age thing? No. For those who say yes, please furnish me the age in Igbo land, versus the bemba land, versus the hausa land, versus the Yoruba land, Versus the tuareg land, Versus the Moors of Morocco, versus the Soyinkeh of Mali, versus the Julah of Mali, Vesus the Bambara of Guinea and versus the mandigo of gambia and versus the Phular of Mauretania, versus the Ashante of Ghana? Yet I have not even scratched the surface of the many african tribal people? What about the Massai, the many tribes of South Africa and napal?

Only an ignorant soul will make such a claim that you hear and read the Christians and Jews and their cohorts making about my beloved Messenger! I know how much I love women and through Muhammad (AS), my sexuality is limitted to who belong to be! There is no way that HIV/AIDS, InshaAllah can reach me! Thank Allah (SWA) for blessing me with His Idayah and making me follow Muhammad (AS) His beloved Messenger and Prophet!


@Pureloic: Where is your logic? Please copy Jesus who was a bachelor and see what becomes of your branch in the family tree, say 100 years from now! And if you can't copy Jesus in this very single matter, know that you are not true to Jesus!

I still dont understand what u are going on about.

Abr Bakr (Aisha's father) was as shocked as we are.
Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."



This haddith shows aisha playing with her dolls. who plays with dolls? matured people? This haddith also confirms that she had not reached the age of puberty then. So what in God's name are u insinuating?
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. [/i]When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

olabowale:

[i]Can any Christian defines a pedophile for us? [/i]Is it by age or by characteristics? That characteristic if it is, I will like to know. And does it stop at just one person, if actually that is her age, or his age?

A young woman in Ibadan, one of the Osinnuga's died many years ago. About two years ago, my cousin was telling me about her. Surprisingly, she said that she and this late girl were just a year apart. It was a surprise to me, because the girl was so small in those days that you would have thought that she was a mere 11 year old by 1975, and almost out of high school then! My cousin is now 50 years old, last September!

The young woman's tiny stature fooled even those who knew her at birth! She did not look her age at all, and for those reasons, she was overlooked by possible suitors, in England, in the 80s and died ever as a spinster!

Was Aisha not a sickly and frail woman, considering the circumstances, she might have looked like a six year old, which is what she meant rather than saying that she was sactually a six year old woman! This is my singular reason for asking people to tell us when she was born, relative to when the first revelation came down!

Can the Christian please do the research, before I present my case against your lies? We the muslims are happy at whatever age she is. She had benefitted us greately (RA)!

Copy Jesus and remain single please! And none of you is a true believer until you copy Jesus in his marital abstainance!


Is Wikipedia more reliable that ahadith? No, except if the ahadith is weak and there is no possibility for it to be an ahadith! I have many like that that does not fit the characteristics of the prophet!

Please provide us a character description of a pedophile. I already have one good and complete description, which none of its aspects does not fit Muhammad. Please get us your version that can fit him. Go to scotland yard, and see the MI5/6 for a good and comprehensive description. They aught to know better than you. No?

This is the literal definition of a paedophile. [i]an adult who is sexually attracted to children

mohammed was an adult (53 years old) and he had sexual relations with a 9 year old girl (Aisha) who was still playing with her dolls and had not reached the age of puberty.

Mohammed is as such a PAEDOPHILE.

olabowale:

[list]
[li]Can any Christian defines a pedophile for us[/li]
[li][/li]
[/list]? Is it by age or by characteristics? That characteristic if it is, I will like to know. And does it stop at just one person, if actually that is her age, or his age?

A young woman in Ibadan, one of the Osinnuga's died many years ago. About two years ago, my cousin was telling me about her. Surprisingly, she said that she and this late girl were just a year apart. It was a surprise to me, because the girl was so small in those days that you would have thought that she was a mere 11 year old by 1975, and almost out of high school then! My cousin is now 50 years old, last September!

  haha sorry the christian defination wont exhonorate you from the wicked acts you do olabs.  sleeping with small kids should be wrong to every man not just religious men.

the pathetic excuse of the small woman is not genuine reason for sleeping with every small child.  she is a one in a million how does that relate to the sikiras and serifatu who are obviously 8 - 10 yrs old?

i know a west indian woman in her 30's that could pas for a 16yrs old that is no excuse to sleep with her.  if you tot you had a good excuse there why didnt you kill your sister seeing her age mate is now dead.  you want to use an abnormal situation to justify wickedness.

where are lagosboy and abusola now. cant they come and sight thier own example of 12 yrs old they discovered was 70yrs.

@JJYOU: Haha. I asked you or any of your scholars to define pedophile, you scooter libby away! And there was no place that I said my cousin Ms. Jagun is a man! I did not say that they were lovers! These were too females. Just like two males, one small framed and the other a bigger bodied person. they will obviously look different, in my world!

Finally, if a 16 year looking woman is actually 30 year old, what stops a man who wants her from marrying her? Is the look that determines the reason you marry her, or the fact that she is matured according to your societal value?

It is this type of misunderstanding that makes argument sometime difficult to have with those who are not prepared to show proofs! You are a nigerian, how many agneses, and victorias, and veronicas and virginia and kemis and rachaels and uzoomas and lyndas, that married at younger ages? Say age 15? And many people in the same nigeria will be shocked if they see what 13 years old girls do in america! babies and more babies!

olabowale:

@JJYOU: Haha. [b]I asked you or any of your scholars to define pedophile, you scooter libby away! [/b]And there was no place that I said my cousin Ms. Jagun is a man! I did not say that they were lovers! These were too females. Just like two males, one small framed and the other a bigger bodied person. they will obviously look different, in my world!

Finally, if a 16 year looking woman is actually 30 year old, what stops a man who wants her from marrying her? Is the look that determines the reason you marry her, or the fact that she is matured according to your societal value?

It is this type of misunderstanding that makes argument sometime difficult to have with those who are not prepared to show proofs! You are a nigerian, how many agneses, and victorias, and veronicas and virginia and kemis and rachaels and uzoomas and lyndas, that married at younger ages? Say age 15? And many people in the same nigeria will be shocked if they see what 13 years old girls do in america! babies and more babies!

LYING is not allowed.

The most perfect of believers are those most perfect of character; and the best of you are the best of you to
your spouses.” Tirmidhi, Ibn Hibban

"None but a noble man treats women in an honourable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women
disgracefully" At-Tirmithy

He wrote:

The collector of the so-called sound narrations, Imam al-Bukahri narrated:

Narrated Sahl bin Sad: While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented
herself for marriage to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a
reply. One of his companions said, " Marry her to me O Allah’s Apostle " The Prophet asked him, "Have you got
anything ? " He said, " I have got nothing." The Prophet said, " Not even an iron ring ? " He said, " Not even an
iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half. " The Prophet;
said, " No. Do you know some of the Quran (by heart) ? " He said, " Yes." The Prophet said, " Go, I have agreed
to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an (as her Mahr)." 'And for those who have no courses (i.e.
they are still immature). (65.4) And the 'Iddat for the girl BEFORE PUBERTYis three months (in the above
Verse). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 63; emphasis ours)

Response:

The christian missionary relies his opinion on an english translation of the heading of a chapter. The Sahl bin
Sa'd ahadith ends at: "Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an". What is
mentioned next , the fat quoted text by sham shamoun, is not a hadeeth but part of the title of the next chapter in
sahih al-bukhari:

الصغار لقول تعالى { واللائي لم يحضن } فجعل عدتا ثلاثة أشر قبل البلوغ

something like:
“Chapter on ( the permissibility of ) a man marrying off his underage daughter (which would be) in
accordance with the saying of Allah "And for –“those who do not menstruate" so the `iddah was set to
three months prior to buloogh."

In the context of this verse prior to ‘buloogh’ refers only to ‘prior to menstruation’, since the verse speaks about
those who have no courses yet. When a girl has her first menstrual period, she is general considered as having
reached ‘buloogh’ / puberty. Therefor the writer here in his chapter uses the words ‘underage’ and ‘prior to
buloogh’ as a reference to ‘prior to menstruation’. This can be clearly seen without doubt at the rest of the text
and it’s context in connection to the quranic ayah. A lot of writers used the term ‘buloogh’ only as a reference to
menstruation, since menstruation is the well known sign which shows that a girl has reached ‘buloogh’. Therefor
most writers use the the term ‘prior to buloogh’ and ‘underage’ as a synonym for ‘prior to menstruation’. This
can be confusing sometimes, since one could think that girls could consummate marriage before puberty, which
is actually not allowed in islam. Like we mentioned before there are also other things which are a sign of having
reached ‘majority’ in islam. These things are: wet dreams, breasts, public hair and the age of 15 years. Therefor a
girl can only consummate marriage prior to menstruation (which is general considered as buloogh for girls)
when she has already public hair, breasts or reached the age of 15 years or had a wet dream, which are also signs
that a girl has reached puberty in islam. So keep in mind that the heading of this chapter only refers to girls who
had not yet menstruated which can be clearly seen at the rest of the text and it’s connection to the quranic ayah.
Proof that girls can only consummate marriage on the onset of puberty can be found in the sunnah of our
prophet. The Prophet, peace be upon him, didn’t consummate his marriage with Aicha when she was six. He
consummated his marriage with her three years later. The reason for this was that they were waiting for her to
come of age, or in other words reached puberty.

Another author, Karen Armstrong, has this to add:
Tabari says that she was so young that she stayed in her parents home and the marriage was consummated there
later when she had reached puberty.

( Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, page 157 )

Now if a marriage could be consummated at any age with a girl or prior to puberty, then certainly the prophet,
peace be upon him, would have consummated his marriage with Aicha when she was six. However he never did
this for a reason, he waited untill she reached puberty. From this we can already see, that girls priot to puberty
are not allowed to consummate marriage. But what about the ayah which says ‘and the waiting period for those
who have no courses yet is three months’ ? Like we have seen in the heading of the chapter of sahih bukhari is
that girls prior to menstruation can marry, which is by some writers described as ‘prior to buloogh’ or ‘underage’
since menstruation is general considered as having reached buloogh. However this does not mean that girls can
consummate marriage before pubery, which some people think. This confusion occurs because some writers
used the terms ‘prior to buloogh’ or ‘underage’ as a reference or synonym for ‘prior to menstruation’ since
menstruation is the well known aspect which shows that a girl has reached puberty / majority. However in islam
a girl has also reached puberty / majority when she had her first wet dream, or has already public hair, breasts or
reached the age of 15 years. These facts can be found in Ibn Kathirs famous tafsir on soerah 4

Qu’ran An-nisa 6:
Waibtaloo alyatama hatta itha balaghoo alnnikaha fa-in anastum minhum rushdan faidfaAAoo ilayhim
amwalahum wala ta/kulooha israfan wabidaran an yakbaroo waman kana ghaniyyan falyastaAAfif waman kana
faqeeran falya/kul bialmaAAroofi fa-itha dafaAAtum ilayhim amwalahum faashhidoo AAalayhim wakafa
biAllahi haseeban

Prove orphans till they reach the marriageable age; then, if ye find them of sound judgment, deliver over unto
them their fortune; and devour it not by squandering and in haste lest they should grow up Whoso (of the
guardians) is rich, let him abstain generously (from taking of the property of orphans); and whoso is poor let
him take thereof in reason (for his guardianship). And when ye deliver up their fortune unto orphans, have (the
transaction) witnessed in their presence. Allah sufficeth as a Reckoner.

Ibn Kathir in his tafsir comments:

The age of puberty, according to Mujahid. The age of puberty according to the majority of scholars comes when
the child has a wet dream. In his Sunan, Abu Dawud recorded that `Ali said, "I memorized these words from the
Messenger of Allah , “There is no orphan after the age of puberty nor vowing to be silent throughout the day to
the night” .

In another Hadith, `A'ishah and other Companions said that the Prophet said, “The pen does not record the
deeds of three persons: the child until the age of puberty, the sleeping person “until waking up, and the senile
until sane”

Or, the age of fifteen is considered the age of adolescence. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn Umar said,
I was presented in front of the Prophet on the eve of the battle of Uhud, while I was fourteen years of age, and he
did not allow me to take part in “that battle. But I was presented in front of him on the eve of the battle of Al-
Khandaq (The Trench) when I was fifteen years old, and he allowed “me (to join that battle).

Umar bin `Abdul-`Aziz commented when this Hadith reached him, “ This is the difference between a child and
an adult.” There is a difference of opinion over whether pubic hair is considered a sign of adulthood, and the
correct opinion is that it is. The Sunnah supports this view, according to a Hadith collected by Imam Ahmad
from `Atiyah Al-Qurazi who said, We were presented to the Prophet on the day of Qurizah, whoever had pubic
hair was killed, whoever did not was left free to go, I was one of those who did not, so I was left free.'' The Four
Sunan compilers also recorded similar to it. At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Sahih.'' Allah's statement, 1
We now clearly see and have enough proof to state that consummation of marriage in islam can only occur when
a girl has reached puberty. Therefor a girl who has not yet had her first menstrual period, can only consummate
marriage prior to menstruation when she has reached majority / puberty trough other ways. These others ways
are: having a wet dream, having already public hair, breasts or reaching the age of 15 years. These facts can be
found in Ibn Kathirs tafsir and the hadith.

The Prophet, peace be upon him, never said that girls could consummate marriage prior to puberty. The christian
missionary based his attack on islam on the heading of a chapter in the hadith collection of bukhari, therefor the
christian missionary could not provide any hadith or quranic ayah to support his claim. On the contrary the
hadith and quran refute his false claims. Moreover i showed and pointed out that ‘prior to buloogh’ by some
writers is used as a synonym for ‘prior to menstruation’ , which was clearly the case with the heading of the
chapter in sahih bukhari, since the quranic ayah about menstruation was mentioned. Moreover Maulana
Muhammad Ali’s commentary on soerah 4:6 is enough proof to silent the lie of the christian missionary.

Maulana Muhammad Ali in his commentary of the qu’ran comments:
These words, moreover, show that marriage should be performed at the age when a person has attained majority,
for the age of marriage is spoken of as being the age of attaining majority. 2

The christian missionary moreover fails to realize that it was a normal custom for young people to marry at the
onset of their puberty or some years later, since the prophet, peace be upon him, recommended those who had
the means for it to marry. The christian missionary obvious only fantasizes that older men married with younger
girls, he obvious never realizes that young boys just married young girls back then, and only consummated
marriage with them when they had reached puberty. In those times and biblical times it was the custom of the
society, which nowadays many people fail to realize. Also puberty and adulthood in those societies back then
were reached at an earlier age then today. Also it’s important to know that in islam girls have free will to choose
a husband they want / like. They have the right to refuse a proposel from someone they don’t want to marry or
just don’t like. So a marriage can only happen in islam if both parties agree with each other, and are happy with
it. This can be found in the next hadith:


Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67
The Prophet said: “A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not
be given in marriage except after her permission

Also the option that a girl can (not must) consummate marriage at the onset of her puberty, does not mean that
girls have to marry at this age. It’s only an option. Secondly even if she has reached the onset of puberty or
general age of puberty in islam, then she can only marry if she is able to. If she is not able / capable / or ready
to marry or consummate marriage, then she cannot and should not marry. This rule can be found in the next
hadith:

Sahih Bukhari , Volume 7, Book 62, Number 3

The prophet said: “ O young people ! Whoever among you is able to marry, should marry, and whoever is not
able to marry, is recommended to fast, as fasting diminishes his sexual power.



Thirdly she can only consummate her marriage at the onset of puberty, if she and her parents are sure that
there would be no harm in it for her to marry and consummate her marriage, since the prophet said:

Related by Al-Daraqutni, Ibn Majah and Ahmad.
The Prophet said: “There shall be no infliction of harm on oneself or others"


So if a girl on the onset of puberty by herself is not mentally or emotional ready for marriage, then she herself
and her parents should conclude and agree that it’s not the right time yet for her to marry and / or consummate
marriage. If they would do the opposite, then: k


If the parents give their daughter permission to consummate her marriage, or letting her marry while they know
that their daughter is mentally and emotionally not ready for it, then they would harm their daughter. This would
be a violoation of the hadith which states ‘not to harm others’.


If the girl herself at the onset of puberty agrees and or insists to consummate her marriage or to marry (and
forces her parents to give her permission, because for example she’s in love), while she herself is actualy not
ready for marriage, mentally and emotionally, then in this case she would harm herself. This would also be a
violation of the hadith ‘not to harm oneself’. k
In today’s society many girls would not be ready ( except some ) to marry on the onset of puberty or general
considered age of puberty in islam ( fifteen years old ). Most of them would certainly not have the means for it,
due to lack of education or qualifications for a job which are required nowadays to survive and live a good life.
We should also remember that back then in early islamic times and biblical times, females like Aicha were raised
in a society where womanhood was reached at a much earlier age than it is in many societies today. Therefor my
advise to young men and women is to marry at an age when they have finished their schools and are both are
sure that they have the means for marriage. This would mean that they are 100% sure that one is emotional and
mentally ready for marriage and consummation of marriage.

Men should be 100% sure that they can support and carry the burdens to support and protect their wifes and
family from any harm or / and danger. Also both men and women have to be sure that they are willing and open
to spend as much time as possible with their partner in marriage, in romance and happiness, since marriage in
islam has to be based on love, peace and rest (see soerah 30:21). If one fails or harms the other partner in
marriage all the time, one commits a major sin. Marriage in islam is something important and half one’s faith,
which means husband and wife must work together and offer themselves for each other to make their marriage
succesfull. Also man's treatment of his wife is a measure of the perfection of his faith as in the hadith where the
prophet, peace be upon him, said:

Riyad as-Salihin, Chapter 34, Nr. 278
The Prophet said: “The most perfect of the believers in their belief are those with the best manners, and the best
of you are those who are best with their wives.”

Sources:

1:
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=10463

So I asked where are your proofs? What are te signs of maturity? Is big body the sign or what are the signs?