dolphinheart:

dnt jump the gun sir, neither did I say so . But the scriptures told us jesus had brothers, these brothers of jesus where mostimes it's mentioned, with Mary!, these are facts, abi no be so

the bible does mention adelphos of jesuss and even mentions them with mary, but never sons of mary those are facts.

yes you are right , it does not address the topic, but it surely helps one to understand why you hold on to the veneration of Mary and put her in a position that does not have any divine organizational surpport. you gave her a crown God does not like or approve of, and you had to alter God's organizational arrangement to achieve this!

again the rant continues.

did I say it was sin? no
but did Mary remain unclean for 40 days after jesus birth ? yes

you asked if we consider such the case today, the answer is no, but Mary is not from today, and she did not give birth to jesus today, she gave birth to jesus when the law of Moses was still active!

I also Do not think the birth of christ was an unclean event, but according to the law, Mary was unclean when she gave birth to jesus, was she not? and she remaimed unclean for 40 days, was she not?

according to the law Jesus was also unclean when he was saving us becos he bled, and he was accursed by the law for dying on a tree. So Jesus was also unclean and even accursed by the law, as his mother wwas unclean at childbirth according to the law.


Sorry dear but what does that prove?

otipoju:


No one is contesting that Mary was a virgin when she was betrothed to Joseph. The idea that you are trying to postulate is that throughout her lifetime, she never slept with any man. Sadly your evidences are not solid nor convincing enough to back your claim. If God did not want Joseph to sleep with mary at all, he would clearly have said so. And the bible records that he did not until after she had gave birth.

sorry dear that is pure speculation, if God wanted us to blive mary perpetual virginity he wwould have told us, if God wanted us to believe in the trinity he would have said it plain in the bible, if God wanted us to believe bible the catholic church wouldnt compile it, the apostles and Jesus would do it etc, pure speculation.

It was never contested in the bible that lot was Abraham's relative and not brother.

but yet the word used to describe them is the one for brothers, the same word used to describe the sso called brothers of Jesus. that should tell u the scope and range of the word.

It was clearly stated that Joseph brothers were half brothers.

It was clearly stated that John was Jesus's cousin and so if Jesus's brothers were half brothers, it would not be hidden.

Jesus's siblings were not part of his disciples and its thrrefore understandable that they were not present at the cross even when all the disciples had deserted him except John.

The answer comes from a close reading of the Gospels. Matthew and Mark name the following as “brothers” of Jesus: James, Joseph (or “Joses,” depending on the manuscript), Simon, and Judas (i.e., “Jude”). But Matthew 27:56 says that at the cross were Mary Magdalene and “Mary the mother of James and Joseph,” whom he significantly calls “the other Mary” (Mt 27:61) (i.e., the Mary who was not Mary the Mother of Jesus). John concurs with this, telling us that “standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the
wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene” (Jn 19:25, emphasis added). In short, James, Jude, and their brothers are the children of “the other Mary,” the wife of Clopas, not Mary, the Mother of Jesus.
Interestingly, this “other Mary” is described as the mary “sister.” Is it really possible that
two siblings were both named Mary? Probably not.
Rather it’s far more likely they were “sisters” in the same sense Jesus and the other Mary’s son, James, were “brothers.” That is, they were cousins or some other extended relation.

The same bible that talks about the brothers of Jesus tells us their mothers andd even fathers, they werent marys children.

Sarassin:




Quite simply I don’t agree with any of this. Matthew 13:55 amongst others, demonstrates clearly that Mary was not a perpetual virgin because Jesus had brothers. What is more, there is not a shred of evidence to prove that these were merely Joseph's children from a prior or later marriage.

I do not accept your claim that the Greek word for “brother” is not specific enough and could mean “cousin.” or other relatives, in these instances the Greek word adelphos can only mean brother. Your claim is predicated on the fact that in Aramaic, there is no word for “cousin,” so the word for “brother” was used instead.

But Greek does indeed have a word for "cousin," anepsios, which is used in Colossians 4:10 to describe the relationship between Barnabas and Mark. Paul, who wrote Colossians, and evidently knew the word for "cousin", did not apply it to James, the Lord's "brother", in Galatians 1:19. Matthew and Luke also wrote their gospels in Greek, and they definitely had a word for "cousin" at their disposal. They didn't use it because it would have been inaccurate, these were Jesus' real brothers.

But let’s assume that the word “cousin” had not been available to them, would they have used the word “brother” instead? not likely. OT writers did not fail to differentiate between brothers and relatives who were not brothers. For instance, Ezekiel 11:15 starts off with, "Son of man, your brothers, your relatives, your fellow exiles and the whole house of Israel..." In this verse a "relative" is distinguished from a "brother.”

since u are so sure the greek never uses brother to describe relatives then why does the septuagist use adelphos to describe lot and abramham?

The fact that Mary indulged in sex with her husband after Jesus was born does not in any way diminish from who she was, similarly the rush to deny Jesus any form of earthly comfort i.e familial sibling relationships is simply not right, he was afterall a first century Palestinian Jew!

now u can assert and speculate, but the idea of marys kids is a invention hardly found in the earlier centuries. The early christians clearly sttate mary had one kid and the bible doesnt disagree.

JMAN05:


You see people run into problem in trying to establish antitype. The bible never identified mary as the ark of God. You said he carried the law giver, while the ark carried the law. Even if you say she carried the law and law giver, the ark only carried the tablet containing the ten commandment alone NOT the law giver. Joseph had access to mary, while the ark has to be approached by a high priest who undergo a ceremonial cleansing. Joseph should not have been qualified to marry her.

If you have no scripture where she is called ark of God or where she was identified as a prophetic antitype, the discussion should be over cos I wont be discussing what does not exist.

Unlike Mary, Sarah was identified as the Jerusalem above, which is the wife of God. We read:

Gal. 4:26 "But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother". In other words, Sarah is even the one identified by the bible as the anti-typical wife of God. read verse 22 also. verse 31 says "So, brothers, we are children, not of a servant girl, but of the free woman".

That is what the scripture says. Mary was never shown as an antitype of the Ark. Even if she was the ark (tho she is not), Joseph did no wrong by sleeping with her, after all, Abraham slept with antitypical wife of God.



I asked, since he was already existing in heaven as the son of God, what sense is there to emphasize what mary did. As if mary brought him to life. Remember that Joseph is his fleshly father as mary is his fleshly mother. Joseph should also be the father of God, and also the husband of ur God's mother. Joseph is even in a better position to call her my baby mama. He has already been God's son in heaven. Dont you think so?



Dont you think you are making emphasis on something God himself did not emphasize? Is it not better to know God's view thru His word? Israelites were God's dedicated holy nation. make no mistake about it. But God allowed them to marry. meaning that what is dedicated to God does not mean that marriage or sex defiles them. That is God's view. It is good not be over righteous than God. God sets standard of what is right and wrong, not we. God had not stated that when any who is dedicated to him sleeps with a man, she condemned. Jesus still calls his bride virgin even though they do get married. Dont establish your own standard.

Like I said, both Joseph and Mary were all in a dedicated nation of Israel, mary alone was not the dedicated one. (and am yet to see where the scripture said she was specially dedicated to God. Show me if there is or is it another of ur standard?)

2. You are now emphasizing the theory that she gave birth to a God, that that is the main thing. However, your op is holding on to the belief that Mary is the wife of God. And that having relation with her is a big error (no bible proof). You even went further to draw an analogy with David and his wife. That any who went to take his wife and sleep with her, is as if he wants to usurp the authority of the king (I want to add that David would never even give his wife to another man for marriage). That is the point under discussion. So dont shift it.

In that vein, is it taking his sovereignty when ur God's wife was married by another person, Joseph? The marriage itself is a big factor cos king david would not allow someone else to even marry his wife, because he knows that marriage will afford them sex. Never! In fact God himself by His standard will view it as adultery. But did He view that of Joseph as such? Isnt God's standard better than our's? (ie assuming Mary was called God's wife).

And I have shown that according to God's standard (as oppose to urs), those He marries are not exonerated from marriage and sex. Thats God's view.

In summary:

- God never ban his 'wives' from being married and having sex. eg the Israelites and the bride of Christ married and had relations. Although Mary is never identified as God's wife.

- That one is the temple of God does not mean he cant get married and have relations eg True Christian saints are bride of Christ but they marry. compare Matt 23:16-21

- That one is an antitype of something dear to God does not mean she cannot marry. eg Sarah was an antitype of God's woman, but she married and had relations. Although the bible never identified Mary as an antitype of the Ark.

did sarah also give birth to god? Antitypes are prey across infact the old testamentt iss simply a shadow of the new, it is full of types and antityypes. If u study wwell they are easy to draw.

When David saw the ark he rejoiced and said,
"How can the ark of the Lord come to me?"
Elizabeth uses almost the same words: "Why isthis granted me, that the mother of my Lord
should come to me?" Luke is telling us
something—drawing our minds back to the Old Testament, showing us a parallel. When David approached the ark he shouted
out and danced and leapt in front of the ark.
He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a
priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New
Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the
Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb—and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark. The Ark of the Old Covenant remained in the
house of Obed-edom for three months, and
Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for
three months. The place that housed the ark for three months was blessed, and in the
short paragraph in Luke, Elizabeth uses the
word blessed three times. Her home was
certainly blessed by the presence of the ark
and the Lord within. When the Old Testament ark arrived—as when Mary arrived—they were both greeted with shouts of joy. The word for the cry of Elizabeth’s greeting is a rare Greek word used in connection with Old Testament liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the ark and worship (cf. Word Biblical Commentary, 67). This word would flip on the light switch for any knowledgeable Jew. The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sm 6:12; 1 Kgs 8:9-11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Lk 1:56; 2:21-22).

Jesus's brothers and sisters sucked the Breast of Mary just like Jesus. Does that make them God and Goddesses like Jesus? Yes. In which way are they then different from us who sucked our individual MAMA Breasts? Only if we regard ourselves as children of Eve and not of Mary. And choose the path of Judas Iscariot and not of John the brother and disciple of Jesus. As for Magdalene and her issues for Issve(Da vinci code), God permited such fulness of Life search and progress.

Ubenedictus:
the bible does mention adelphos of jesuss and even mentions them with mary, but never sons of mary those are facts.

from my facts
jesus had brothers and sisters
jesus brothers are with Mary on a number of occasions
someone with no twisted intentions will agree to the larger possibility that Jesus brothers are actually mary's children.
no other parent was mentioned for this brothers of jesus, they are mostimes with Mary, Jesus mother.
no law stops Mary from having seXual relations with her lawfully wedded husband(in the eyes of God and in the eyes of the law)

again the rant continues.

yep, they are rants that will help one to understand why you hold on to the veneration of Mary and put her in a position that does not have any divine organizational surpport. you gave her a crown God does not like or approve of, and you had to alter God's organizational arrangement to achieve this!

according to the law Jesus was also unclean when he was saving us becos he bled, and he was accursed by the law for dying on a tree. So Jesus was also unclean and even accursed by the law, as his mother wwas unclean at childbirth according to the law.

accused by the law, pls show scriptural proof!

Sorry dear but what does that prove?

are items made Holy ever at any time unclean in the eyes of the law?

Ubenedictus:
since u are so sure the greek never uses brother to describe relatives then why does the septuagist use adelphos to describe lot and abramham?

now u can assert and speculate, but the idea of marys kids is a invention hardly found in the earlier centuries. The early christians clearly sttate mary had one kid and the bible doesnt disagree.

You cannot hang your erroneous doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary on the improper citation of the Septuagint. The Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew Bible (which consisted largely of the OT) into Greek. We are agreed that certain words like “cousin” and “half-brother” were not in use and the term “brother” may have been used interchangeably depending on the individual authors of the OT. However, the NT was composed entirely in Greek, and as I have shown in my previous post, they had the appropriate words to use to define proper familial relationships.

Finally, we have the historical source of the Jewish-Roman historian/author Josephus who wrote the following:

"And so he convened the judges of the Sanhedrin, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, the one called Christ, whose name was James, and certain others…." Antiquities (Book 20, Ch. 9, Par. 1).

Ubenedictus:
did sarah also give birth to god? Antitypes are prey across infact the old testamentt iss simply a shadow of the new, it is full of types and antityypes. If u study wwell they are easy to draw.

Did u forget?

Likewise, ask
yourselves why it was a big deal which prince remarried
David's last, unconsummated wife[/b]the Shunamite
woman. Why? Because sleeping with a [b]king's wife meant
stealing his sovereignty (or if the king was dead, it was
an attempt to make yourself seen as his legal heir).
Sleeping with the mother of one of his children was even
more insulting, of course, because it made the paternity
uncertain; but the Shunamite woman's story shows that
even sleeping with a virgin wife[/b]was really really not
taken well, unless you really were the lawful king. (And [b]if
you were the lawful king, you should be getting your
own wife, not doing some weird pagan thing. Marry the
old king's daughter, not his wife duh.)
So why would Joseph have wanted to have sex with a
woman who was essentially God's wife (and mom),
unless he had wanted to tell God, "I'm going to usurp
your power and sleep with your woman as part of my
new House of David World Domination Plan"? Yeah, that
would go over really really well.
Joseph was a righteous man. He was not a silly man

What makes somebody exclusively yours is the matrimony not the offspring.

And I have shown that those whom God view as His wife can have intercourse with a fleshly husband. Again, Mary was never recorded as Gods wife in the bible, only Josephs. And Jesus is the son of Joseph. Mary is the mother of Joseph's son. Make no mistake about that. He legally married her. so he has a claim to her than ur god. however no one can take Christ's bride. Christ bought them with his blood. but they can marry individually.

Ubeni dont u think its good we view Gods wife as He does and not force Him to do view her as we like?

Gods Ark was never ever stated to prefigure Mary. But how can someone be an antitype of what is still in force. The ark was still being considered by God as a sacred material, how then could it have an antitype?

In the Old testament Also, the Word or God's Commandments was not made to prefigure Christ... That concept was brought forward by John in John 1, In the ark or covenant box, you had three things according to Hebrews 9:4bthe Covenant box all covered with gold and containing the gold jar with the Manna in it, AARON'S STICK that had sprouted leaves, and the TWO STONE TABLETS with the COMMANDMENTS written on them.

Jesus says he is the real Manna (bread from heaven) see John 6

AARON'S STICK that budded in Numbers 16 shows authority or high priest.. JESUS is our high priest see Heb 7: 26

The tablets of the commandments are God's word written on stones see Ex 19 & 20, Jesus is the Word made flesh... see john 1:14... All these were Old testament symbols or types of Jesus contained In a box that was REVERED, Now Jesus himself takes flesh in a New Ark (Mary) and She is not given any reverence.. Heb 8:15 and col 2:17 said old testament things are shadows of the things to come in and through Christ.. People who opened the Old Ark or touch it died (seventy people of Beth Shemesh and Uzzah) see 1 Sam 6:19 and 2 Sam 6:7... IF this is a shadow how much reverence should we give to the "Ark" who bore the "Real" Jesus

dolphinheart:

from my facts
jesus had brothers and sisters
jesus brothers are with Mary on a number of occasions
someone with no twisted intentions will agree to the larger possibility that Jesus brothers are actually mary's children.
no other parent was mentioned for this brothers of jesus, they are mostimes with Mary, Jesus mother.
no law stops Mary from having seXual relations with her lawfully wedded husband(in the eyes of God and in the eyes of the law)


yep, they are rants that will help one to understand why you hold on to the veneration of Mary and put her in a position that does not have any divine organizational surpport. you gave her a crown God does not like or approve of, and you had to alter God's organizational arrangement to achieve this!


accused by the law, pls show scriptural proof!

gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Sarassin:


You cannot hang your erroneous doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary on the improper citation of the Septuagint. The Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew Bible (which consisted largely of the OT) into Greek. We are agreed that certain words like “cousin” and “half-brother” were not in use and the term “brother” may have been used interchangeably depending on the individual authors of the OT. However, the NT was composed entirely in Greek, and as I have shown in my previous post, they had the appropriate words to use to define proper familial relationships.
"And so he convened the judges of the Sanhedrin, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, the one called Christ, whose name was James, and certain others…." Antiquities (Book 20, Ch. 9, Par. 1).

ADELPHOS IS ALSO USED LOSELY IN D NT.
Acts 2:37 ► Parallel Verses New International Version When the people heard this, they were cut to
the heart and said to Peter and the other
apostles, "Brothers,

Ubenedictus:
What would u call God's baby mama?

I am d temple of God and i can go abt and eat unclean animals and touch blood etc and i wont be unclean, i am not a jew, BUT Joseph was a jew, a righteous one who followed d law, he knew about ritual cleanines, he also knew not to touch anytin dedicated to God.

If u were a jew who found out he had a temple relic consecrated to GOD in his house, will u use d relic in ur kitchen?

So you really believe that women get impregnated by the Holy Spirit?
What sort of ra.ping Holy Spirit is this?

Would you accept this explanation from your daughter for example?

LDaVinci:


So you really believe that women get impregnated by the Holy Spirit?
What sort of ra.ping Holy Spirit is this?

Would you accept this explanation from your daughter for example?

What do u understand by d term rape?

Ubenedictus:
What do u understand by d term rape?

"unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim."

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/rape

Thus I say to you that the alleged act of the Holy Spirit was an act of rape no different from the acts of the Angels of the Old Testament who allegedly slept with mortal women and gave birth to god-men.

Exactly the same case here, as Jesus is called a God-Man, no?

As such, you worship a rapist. It also means that Jesus was a bastard.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bastard?s=t

In fact you have inspired me to open a thread.
https://www.nairaland.com/3535606/acts-murderer-rapist-bastard#52200536

John the baptist is greater than Mary!


Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


And yet John is not worthy to lose the latchet of Jesus' shoe.


Mary was just a dirty sinner like everyone else who was saved by God's grace alone

Only Jesus can save you surrender to him!

solite3:
John the baptist is greater than Mary!


Mary was just a dirty sinner like everyone else who was saved by God's grace alone

And a clear fornicator and liar as she slept with someone else, got pregnant and lied to Joseph about Yahweh raping her

LDaVinci:


And a clear fornicator and liar as she slept with someone else, got pregnant and lied to Joseph about Yahweh raping her

may God have mercy on you. You can't continue like this surrender your life to God before its too late

I guess John the Baptist is greater than Jesus too because he was also born of a woman according to you..
gal 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God
sent his Son, born of a woman, born under
the law.

Concerning Mary yes She was saved by God's grace that is what the Catholic Church teaches... according to the Bible.... and according to the Bible she is the only human HAILED by an Angel and the first person the Bible calls FULL OF GRACE..
luke 1:28χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.
Chaire, kecharitōmenē, ho kyrios meta sou!
Hail, "Full of Grace," the Lord is with you!

Elizabeth said to her also
luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby moved within her. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and said in a loud voice, “You are the most blessed of all women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 Why should this great thing happen to me, that my Lord's mother comes to visit me?

Elizabeth said all these things under the power of the Holy Spirit...

if the Angel Gabriel and the Holy Spirit respected and honour her and you want to insult and degrade her then that is left for you... the Bible also says that all generations will call her blessed..
Luke 1:48 for he has been mindful of the humble state
of his servant. From now on all generations
will call me blessed,..

All this Is scriptural yet "Bible Christians" ignore it...

Ask yourself this question, Did Jesus honour his mother?
I mean he should obey his own command
exodus 20:12 “Respect your father and your MOTHER, so that you may live a long time in the land that I am giving you.

even ordinary humans don't like people speaking ill of their mother. how much more Jesus himself..

concerning Mathew 1:25,
Scripture’s statement that Joseph "knew [Mary]
not until she brought forth her firstborn" would
not necessarily mean they did "know" each other
after she brought forth Jesus. Until is often used
in Scripture as part of an idiomatic expression
similar to our own usage in English. I may say to
you, "Until we meet again, God bless you." Does
that necessarily mean after we meet again, God
curse you? By no means. A phrase like this is
used to emphasize what is being described
before the until is fulfilled. It is not intended to
say anything about the future beyond that point.
Here are some biblical examples:
2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of
Saul had no child to ( until) the day of her
death. (Does this mean she had children
after she died?)
1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the
public reading of scripture, to preaching, to
teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should
stop teaching after Paul comes?)
1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must
reign until he has put all his enemies under
his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will
end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, "he will
reign over the house of Jacob forever and
of his kingdom there shall be no end."

About Mary being a liar and fornicator... in that case you are calling the Old testament prophets, the Angel Gabriel, St Luke, the Whole Bible and even God a liar with your statement about Mary..

Old testament prophets
Isaiah 7:14 Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him ‘Immanuel.’ see also mat 1:23

Isaiah 9:6 A child is born to us!
A son is given to us!
And he will be our ruler.
He will be called, “Wonderful Counselor,”
“Mighty God,” “Eternal Father,”
“Prince of Peace.”
7 His royal power will continue to grow;
his kingdom will always be at peace.
He will rule as King David's successor,
basing his power on right and justice,
from now until the end of time.
The Lord Almighty is determined to do all this.

Micah 5:2 says: "But you,
Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are
small among the clans of Judah, out of
you will come for me one who will be
ruler over Israel, whose origins are
from of old, from ancient times." The
story of Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem is
told in the New Testament books of
Mathew, Luke, and John.

Numbers: 24:17
says: "A star will come out of Jacob; a
scepter will rise out of Israel." The
genealogy of Jesus laid out in the book
of Matthew details Jesus lineage
through Isaac and Jacob.


Luke 1: 30 The angel said to her, “Don't be afraid, Mary; God has been gracious to you. 31 You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High God. The Lord God will make him a king, as his ancestor David was, 33 and he will be the king of the descendants of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end!”

34 Mary said to the angel, “I am a virgin. How, then, can this be?”

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and God's power will rest upon you. For this reason the holy child will be called the Son of God.

Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby moved within her. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and said in a loud voice, “You are the most blessed of all women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 Why should this great thing happen to me, that my Lord's mother comes to visit me?

I can understand if you hate the Catholic Church but don't blaspheme by calling the Holy Spirit, Scriptures and even God himself a liar.. Unless you are a Muslim or maybe a Jw.. not to offend anyone

author=easymancfc post=52202556

]I guess John the Baptist is greater than Jesus too because he was also born of a woman according to you..
gal 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God
sent his Son, born of a woman, born under
the law.

the bible is clear enough


Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not[b] risen[/b] a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


@bold, past participle was used, showing you that the time period Jesus was talking about was from the time John the baptist backward to Adam.
Jesus was born after John had been born so it does not include Jesus.

Concerning Mary yes She was saved by God's grace that is what the Catholic Church teaches... according to the Bible.... and according to the Bible she is the only human HAILED by an Angel and the first person the Bible calls FULL OF GRACE..
luke 1:28χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.
Chaire, kecharitōmenē, ho kyrios meta sou!
Hail, "Full of Grace," the Lord is with you!

Elizabeth said to her also
luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby moved within her. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and said in a loud voice, “You are the most blessed of all women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 Why should this great thing happen to me, that my Lord's mother comes to visit me?

Elizabeth said all these things under the power of the Holy Spirit...

if the Angel Gabriel and the Holy Spirit respected and honour her and you want to insult and degrade her then that is left for you... the Bible also says that all generations will call her blessed..
Luke 1:48 for he has been mindful of the humble state
of his servant. From now on all generations
will call me blessed,..

All this Is scriptural yet "Bible Christians" ignore it...

Ask yourself this question, Did Jesus honour his mother?
I mean he should obey his own command
exodus 20:12 “Respect your father and your MOTHER, so that you may live a long time in the land that I am giving you.

even ordinary humans don't like people speaking ill of their mother. how much more Jesus himself..

If Mary was saved by grace then it is no more of her righteousness or holiness but purely of God's mercies. It also mean Mary was just an ordinary human being like us. so her eternal virginity is inconsequential and of no relevance, of cause Mary married and had other children.

The child in Elizabeth did not leap for Joy because of Mary but because of Jesus. Jesus would still have been born without Mary but Mary cannot be saved without Jesus.
Jesus honored both Joseph and Mary on erthly issues because they were his parent but when it come to his heavenly father's business Mary was treated like every other person.

In heaven it is Mary that will be honoring and worshipping Jesus.

Mary is no more special than any Christian for Jesus himself called those who listens and do his words his mother and brethren.

Pls show me where I insulted Mary?

#Mary is more special than every other Christian according to the Bible because
She was the only human GREETED, and called FULL OF GRACE.. see
luke 1:28χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριοςμετὰ σοῦ.Chaire, kecharitōmenē, ho kyrios meta sou!Hail, "Full of Grace," the Lord is with you!

She is called BLESSED among women by the Holy Spirit through Elizabeth,

Elizabeth said to her als oluke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby moved within her. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and said in a loud voice, “You are the most blessed of all women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 Why should this great thing happen to me, that my Lord's mother comes to visit me?

The Baby leaped when his Mother heard MARY'S VOICE, yes it is because of Jesus but the Baby leaped when his mother heard Mary's Voice and the Holy Spirit lead Elizabeth also to call Mary according to Luke 1:43 Why should this great thing happen to me, that my LORD'S MOTHER comes to visit me?

Elizabeth realized that it was a great thing for Mary to visit her..


HER ETERNAL VIRGINITY IS OF GREAT CONSEQUENCE BECAUSE IT POINTS FURTHER TO JESUS DIVINITY UNLESS YOU THINK JESUS IS NOT POWERFUL ENOUGH TO CONSECRATE HER TO HIMSELF AFTER SHE BORE HIM

on the Lord's Brothers you quote Mathew 13:55 because it agrees with you but forget about the other verses that contradict or throw more light

it says James and Joseph, Simon and Judas are Jesus's brothers

Now let's look at other verses
Mathew 27:55 There were many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee and helped him. 56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, MARY the MOTHER of JAMES and JOSEPH, and the wife of Zebedee.

Mark 15:40 Some women were there, looking on from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, MARY the MOTHER of the YOUNGER JAMES and of YOURSELF, and SALOME.

Mark 16:1After the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, MARY the mother of JAMES, and SALOME bought spices to go and anoint the body of Jesus.

Note this Mary Is not the LORD'S MOTHER because the Bible addresses her as the LORD's MOTHER ( See Luke 1: John 19)
in John"s account we see other Mary's with the LORD'S MOTHER, whom John calls his mother's "Sister" whose Children can also be called Jesus's brothers and sisters and she herself can be informally called his MOTHER..
John 19:25 Then look at what John says: "But standing by
the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his
mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and
Mary Magdalene"

NOTE THAT IN ALL THE BIBLE ACCOUNT MARY THE MOTHER OF JESUS IS NEVER DIRECTLY CALLED JESUS'S BROTHERS MOTHER.

Now let's look at
Jude 1:1 From JUDE, SERVANT of JESUS CHRIST, and BROTHER of JAMES— see Mathew 13:55, Mark 15:40...
NOTICE HE DOESN'T CALL HIMSELF JESUS BROTHER WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY APPROPRIATE INSTEAD HE RECOGNIZES ONLY JAMES RIGHTLY..

Besides from the story of luke 2 When Jesus was found in the Temple at age
twelve, the context suggests that he was the only son of Mary and Joseph. There is no hint in this episode of any other children in the family (Luke 2:41–51). Jesus grew up in Nazareth, and
the people of Nazareth referred to him as "the son of Mary" (Mark 6:3), not as " a son of Mary." In fact, others in the Gospels are never referred
to as Mary’s sons, not even when they are
called Jesus’ "brethren." If they were in fact her sons, this would be strange usage.

On being married to Joseph... Why did Mary marry Joseph if she would not bear any children for him.. or was consecrated to God as a virgin....
First, as Matthew points out in his genealogy in chapter 1, Joseph was in line to be a successor of David as King of
Israel. Thus, if Jesus was to be the true "son of David" and king of Israel (see 2 Sm 7:14, Heb 1:5, Rv 19:16, 22:16), he needed to be the son of Joseph. As the only son of Joseph, even though
adopted, he would have been in line for the throne. Also, in a culture that did not take too kindly to espoused women getting pregnant by someone other than their spouse, Mary would have been in mortal danger according to the Law (stoned/killed see Leviticus 20:10-). So Joseph by God's divine wisdom became Mary’s earthly spouse and protector as well as the protector of the child Jesus to protect Mary from being called a "Harlot" who got pregnant for someone else before she was supposed to Mary another (imagine the scandal ) and to protect Jesus image of not being called a bastard..
.

[ author=easymancfc post=52212054]

#Mary is more special than every other Christian according to the Bible because
She was the only human GREETED, and called FULL OF GRACE.. see
luke 1:28χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριοςμετὰ σοῦ.Chaire, kecharitōmenē, ho kyrios meta sou!Hail, "Full of Grace," the Lord is with you!

She is called BLESSED among women by the Holy Spirit through Elizabeth,

she is called BLESSED among women not MOST BLESSED. Jesus himself she's you that John is the greatest person that has ever risen go and argue with Jesus I only re echoed his words.
Abraham is called the father of all nations and the father of faith meaning Abraham is greater than Mary also Sarah is the mother of the nation Israel including Mary, Deborah is called mother in Israel, enoch , Elijah, moses, etc what of Gideon that the angel greeted the Lord is with thee mighty man of valour. These people are all great.
Nope Mary is no greater than any christian for even the lest christian is greater than John the baptist who himself is greater than everyone who came before him including Mary.

Mary is a great woman don't get me wrong but not the greatest.

Elizabeth said to her als oluke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby moved within her. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and said in a loud voice, “You are the most blessed of all women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 Why should this great thing happen to me, that my Lord's mother comes to visit me?

The Baby leaped when his Mother heard MARY'S VOICE, yes it is because of Jesus but the Baby leaped when his mother heard Mary's Voice and the Holy Spirit lead Elizabeth also to call Mary according to Luke 1:43 Why should this great thing happen to me, that my LORD'S MOTHER comes to visit me?

Elizabeth realized that it was a great thing for Mary to visit her..

thank God you agreed that the baby leaped not because of Mary but because of Jesus. Jesus is all that matters

HER ETERNAL VIRGINITY IS OF GREAT CONSEQUENCE BECAUSE IT POINTS FURTHER TO JESUS DIVINITY UNLESS YOU THINK JESUS IS NOT POWERFUL ENOUGH TO CONSECRATE HER TO HIMSELF AFTER SHE BORE HIM

pls explain how Mary's eternal virginity establish Christ divinity.
Remember Jesus came to serve and not to be served so for what use will Christ consecrating Mary be to christ?

Mary is only Christ mother in the flesh nothing more.

LDaVinci:


"unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim."

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/rape

Thus I say to you that the alleged act of the Holy Spirit was an act of rape no different from the acts of the Angels of the Old Testament who allegedly slept with mortal women and gave birth to god-men.

Exactly the same case here, as Jesus is called a God-Man, no?

As such, you worship a rapist. It also means that Jesus was a bastard.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bastard?s=t

In fact you have inspired me to open a thread.
https://www.nairaland.com/3535606/acts-murderer-rapist-bastard#52200536

WITHOUT CONSENT?

you said the least Christian is greater than John... Mary was a Christian... some might say the first Christian... because she was the first to believe in Jesus... She was there when he was born, and was with him when he died ... by that then... according to you... she is greater than John, who according to you also is greater than all the old testament people...
Again How many of those People (Abraham, Sarah etc) gave birth to Jesus?
mat 11:11 doesn't say only those who came before him, don't bend it to suit yourself, it simply says Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John
the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the
kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

what this simply means is that all who have lived or are alive born of a woman... non is greater than John...

Jesus is alive or lived during John's time, and he was born of a woman... according to Galatians 4:4... So by your definition he is also greater than Jesus... Don't try to paint it...


Yes... Jesus is greater than Joseph his Foster father so his Purpose of making her a virgin perpetually to suit his divine purpose outweighs the necessity of Joseph having children...

if Jesus wants Mary's womb to be only for him... so it must be regardless of Joseph's progeny or desires.... unless you think he is not powerful enough to do it

You said Mary is a christian by believing in Christ yes you are right. Mary was great not because she gave birth to Jesus but because she believed in Jesus hence her eternal virginity is irrelevant.
John said he was not worthy to unlose Jesus shoe latchet.
Abraham gave birth to Mary do you know that? So Jesus is the seed of Abraham.

Can you tell me the divine purpose of Mary being an eternal virgin?

Joseph having children is a divine commandment do u think God will break his own word by making Mary eternal virgin?
Joseph was married to Mary and as the head of Mary he had right over the body of Mary do you know that?

Why would Jesus who was already born want the womb of Mary again?

I m not saying Jesus is not powerful enough to do it but doing it will contradict his word and there is no reason for him to do it and above all he never did it.
You are only wishing but the reality is Mary married Joseph and gave birth to children.

Every Human can indirectly trace their lineage to Abraham... Again Mary was the only one. (not even Abraham) who actually carried Jesus in her Womb, nursed him, and took care of him... of other person can make that claim.....doing it with not contradict his word... He himself was not married so you might say he is contradicting his word by not having children, Paul was not married, see 1 cor 7, was he contradicting Jesus? Mary married Joseph not necessarily for having children


this is the main reason why Joseph married Mary
First, as Matthew points out in his genealogy in chapter 1, Joseph was in line to be a successor of David as King ofIsrael. Thus, if Jesus was to be the true"son of David" and king of Israel (see 2 Sm 7:14, Heb 1:5, Rv 19:16, 22:16), he needed to be the son of Joseph. As the only son of Joseph, even thoughadopted, he would have been in line for the throne. Also, in a culture that did nottake too kindly to espoused women getting pregnant by someone other thantheir spouse, Mary would have been in mortal danger according to the Law (stoned/killed see Leviticus 20:10-). So Joseph by God's divine wisdom becameMary’s earthly spouse and protector as well as the protector of the child Jesus to protect Mary from being called a"Harlot" who got pregnant for someone else before she was supposed to Mary another (imagine the scandal ) and to protect Jesus image of not being called a bastard..

NOT TO BE BABY FACTORY FOR HIM

[quote author=easymancfc post=52225056]

Every Human can indirectly trace their lineage to Abraham... Again Mary was the only one. (not even Abraham) who actually carried Jesus in her Womb, nursed him, and took care of him... of other person can make that claim.....doing it with not contradict his word... He himself was not married so you might say he is contradicting his word by not having children, Paul was not married, see 1 cor 7, was he contradicting Jesus? Mary married Joseph not necessarily for having children

first you can't compare Mary to Paul or Jesus. Jesus and Paul never got married so the issue of giving birth is ruled out but Mary was espoused to Joseph. there was no plan for Mary never to have children.
Oga not everyone can trace their lineage to Abraham only Ismael and the children of Isaac can.

this is the main reason why Joseph married Mary
First, as Matthew points out in his genealogy in chapter 1, Joseph was in line to be a successor of David as King ofIsrael. Thus, if Jesus was to be the true"son of David" and king of Israel (see 2 Sm 7:14, Heb 1:5, Rv 19:16, 22:16), he needed to be the son of Joseph. As the only son of Joseph, even thoughadopted, he would have been in line for the throne. Also, in a culture that did nottake too kindly to espoused women getting pregnant by someone other thantheir spouse, Mary would have been in mortal danger according to the Law (stoned/killed see Leviticus 20:10-). So Joseph by God's divine wisdom becameMary’s earthly spouse and protector as well as the protector of the child Jesus to protect Mary from being called a"Harlot" who got pregnant for someone else before she was supposed to Mary another (imagine the scandal ) and to protect Jesus image of not being called a bastard..

NOT TO BE BABY FACTORY FOR HIM

Joseph intention for Mary was to Marry her and have children. He was not aware of any plan that Mary is not going to be eternal virgin. Remember Jesus was not a seed of Joseph so it is impossible for Jesus to be called the seed of david through Joseph but through Mary Jesus is the seed of david but Luke attributed it to joseph.
God does not require Mary to be eternal virgin to him God.
Every husband is a protector of his wife. Mary giving birth to children does not stop Joseph from being the protector of Mary and does not make Mary any less neither does it reduce the divinity of Christ.

Is it wrong for women to give birth to children?

I MEANT EVERY ISREALITE NOT EVERY HUMAN... every human traces theirs to Adam and Eve... Pardon the Error
I know Paul and Jesus didn't get married, was just using that to prove a point that having children is not man's ultimate purpose ....

Concerning Jesus getting his "Son of David" title from Mary... that's unbiblical because according to Mathew his ancestry was traced through Joseph not Mary...
Mat 1: 1This is the list of the ANCESTORS OF JESUS CHRIST, a descendant of David, who was a descendant of Abraham.

2-6 From Abraham to King David, the following ancestors are listed: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah and his brothers; then Perez and Zerah (their mother was Tamar), Hezron, Ram, Amminadab, Nahshon, Salmon, Boaz (his mother was Rahab), Obed (his mother was Ruth), Jesse, and King David.

7-11 From David to the time when the people of Israel were taken into exile in Babylon, the following ancestors are listed: David, Solomon (his mother was the woman who had been Uriah's wife), Rehoboam, Abijah, Asa, Jehoshaphat, Jehoram, Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah, Manasseh, Amon, Josiah, and Jehoiachin and his brothers.

12-16 From the time after the exile in Babylon to the birth of Jesus, the following ancestors are listed: Jehoiachin, Shealtiel, Zerubbabel, Abiud, Eliakim, Azor, Zadok, Achim, Eliud, Eleazar, Matthan, Jacob, and JOSEPH, who married Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was called the Messiah.

It is not wrong for women to have Children.. but not all women married or otherwise have children in their lifetime...
Again Which Purpose is Greater God's Honour by keeping Mary wombs for himself Only or Joseph having children

I MEAN EVEN FOOTBALL CLUBS RETIRE JERSEY NUMBERS FOR GREAT PLAYERS... WHY CAN'T GOD RETIRE MARY'S WOMB FOR HIMSELF.. IS IT SO DIFFICULT