Sunday, May 22

[He] entrusted his belongings to them.—Matt. 25:14.

The parable of the talents reveals that the master gave to one slave five talents, to another two, and to still another just one. (Matt. 25:15) Although each slave received a different number, the master expected all of them to be diligent in using the talents, that is, in serving to the best of their ability in the ministry. (Matt. 22:37; Col. 3:23) In the first century, starting at Pentecost 33 C.E., Christ’s followers began doing business with the talents. Their diligence in the preaching and disciple-making work is well-documented in the Bible book of Acts. (Acts 6:7; 12:24; 19:20) After the death of the apostles, Satan fomented apostasy, which flourished for many centuries. During that time, there were no sustained efforts to fulfill the commission to make genuine disciples of Christ. But that would all change during “the harvest,” that is, the last days.—Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43. w15 3/15 3:4, 8


I just noticed these. My question is, was the harvest the last days as portrayed by the Watchtower organisation? Or is this not another clever twist if Jesus words?

OAM4J, Mynd44

rottennaija:
OAM4J, Mynd44

what is your ubderstanding of the Bible verse?

joyandfaith:


what is your ubderstanding of the Bible verse?

The question was direct. Very direct

It would be better you use the Site (jw.org) for answers to ur questions. Or better still do some research.

space for sale

feldido:
It would be better you use the Site (jw.org) for answers to ur questions. Or better still do some research.

Advertising your site? I asked a question concerning what Jesus said not what your watchtower organisation write. The question I asked was, did Jesus say that the harvest is the last days in 1914?

rottennaija:
Sunday, May 22

[He] entrusted his belongings to them.—Matt. 25:14.

The parable of the talents reveals that the master gave to one slave five talents, to another two, and to still another just one. (Matt. 25:15) Although each slave received a different number, the master expected all of them to be diligent in using the talents, that is, in serving to the best of their ability in the ministry. (Matt. 22:37; Col. 3:23) In the first century, starting at Pentecost 33 C.E., Christ’s followers began doing business with the talents. Their diligence in the preaching and disciple-making work is well-documented in the Bible book of Acts. (Acts 6:7; 12:24; 19:20) After the death of the apostles, Satan fomented apostasy, which flourished for many centuries. During that time, there were no sustained efforts to fulfill the commission to make genuine disciples of Christ. But that would all change during “the harvest,” that is, the last days.—Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43. w15 3/15 3:4, 8


I just noticed these. My question is, was the harvest the last days as portrayed by the Watchtower organisation? Or is this not another clever twist if Jesus words?

I commend ur keeping up with the daily text. of course, we welcome sincere questions from our readers. as we go from door to door, we give people opportunity to ask questions and receive answers. We have never been afraid of sincere questions.

Secondly, we have n online research page where you can search answers to bible questions, viz, wol.jw.org

Personally, I enjoy sincere bible discussion not discussions from people who do not love the truth. if I perceive that, trust me, I equally know how to be unserious.

Like some said above, its good to make ur research or ask the witnesses that call on ur door.

To ur question: did you read the bible quotations at the base of the text? if u did, did u see matt 13:39?

Do u still have question on that?

JMAN05:


I commend ur keeping up with the daily text. of course, we welcome sincere questions from our readers. as we go from door to door, we give people opportunity to ask questions and receive answers. We have never been afraid of sincere questions.

Secondly, we have n online research page where you can search answers to bible questions, viz, wol.jw.org

Personally, I enjoy sincere bible discussion not discussions from people who do not love the truth. if I perceive that, trust me, I equally know how to be unserious.

Like some said above, its good to make ur research or ask the witnesses that call on ur door.

To ur question: did you read the bible quotations at the base of the text? if u did, did u see matt 13:39?

Do u still have question on that?

Thanks for the comment anyway, it's a nice way to get someone's attention. You have a good training


Yes, I have read all the text there. Mt 13:39, I'm assuming you refer to the part that says the " untill the conclusion of the system of things". By your definition of the expression, "the conclusion of the system of things" means the last days.

That would mean that when Jesus said, "the harvest is a conclusion of a system of things". He was saying that the harvest is the last days, which started in 1914, down to 2016 and counting?


Then you probably missed this part
"Matthew 13:39
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things,* and the reapers are angels."

Now, check the bolded. Notice jesus said, a conclusion of a system of things. That clearly shows that Jesus didn't mean the last days. But that the harvest is the time when he comes, where he separate the sheep and the goat. You should also read the parable of the sheep and goat.

Secondly, notice that the same expression is used in Mt 28:20 where jesus said "I will be with you until the conclusion of the system of things". Jesus could have plainly said the the harvest is the last days, but he didn't. The problem you seem to have in having an accurate upstanding of the verse is that the NWT uses the words "conclusion of the system of things", which gives room for many meaning to be attach to the verse and many conclusions to be drawn from it. A more accurate rendering of the verse makes it simple to understand Jesus' message.

Notice how these versions of the Bible puts them...

International Version
and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

New Living Translation
The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels.

English Standard Version
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels.

New American Standard Bible
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

King James Bible
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

International Standard Version
The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The enemy who sowed them is Satan, but the harvest is the end of the world and the reapers are the Angels.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The enemy who planted them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world. The workers are angels.

New American Standard 1977
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

Jubilee Bible 2000
and the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

King James 2000 Bible
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

American King James Version
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

American Standard Version
and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.


Darby Bible Translation
and the enemy who has sowed it is the devil; and the harvest is [the] completion of [the] age, and the harvestmen are angels.

English Revised Version
and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.

Webster's Bible Translation
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


The same idea of jesus is expressed in Mt 28:20.
Notice how they are expressed in these translations

New International Version
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

New Living Translation
Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

English Standard Version
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

New American Standard Bible
teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

King James Bible
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

International Standard Version
teaching them to obey everything that I've commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age."

NET Bible
teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."


Jesus words were very clear, he didn't mean in these scriptures that he will be with his disciplines to the last days and then leave them to themselves which would have been so if the harvest was the last days, he was going to be with them, till the very end of the world, which is the harvest, the very jugdment of the world.

Thought you said you are a witness in one thread?
They are know for researching on bible topics.

rottennaija:


Advertising your site? I asked a question concerning what Jesus said not what your watchtower organisation write. The question I asked was, did Jesus say that the harvest is the last days?

rottennaija:


Advertising your site? I asked a question concerning what Jesus said not what your watchtower organisation write. The question I asked was, did Jesus say that the harvest is the last days?

Why not ask one when next they knock on ur door?

feldido:


Why not ask one when next they knock on ur door?

And you are so busy to defend your faith to someone that ask for a reason to such faith in you?

rottennaija:


And you are so busy to defend your faith to someone that ask for a reason to such faith in you?

You'll understand it better when u have a one on one discussion.

rottennaija:


Thanks for the comment anyway, it's a nice way to get someone's attention. You have a good training


Yes, I have read all the text there. Mt 13:39, I'm assuming you refer to the part that says the " untill the conclusion of the system of things". By your definition of the expression, "the conclusion of the system of things" means the last days.

That would mean that when Jesus said, "the harvest is a conclusion of a system of things". He was saying that the harvest is the last days, which started in 1914, down to 2016 and counting?

Yap.

JMAN05:


Yap.

That would mean that when Jesus said, "the harvest is a conclusion of a system of things". He was saying that the harvest is the last days, which started in 1914, down to 2016 and counting?


Then you probably missed this part
"Matthew 13:39
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things,* and the reapers are angels."

Now, check the bolded. Notice jesus said, a conclusion of a system of things. That clearly shows that Jesus didn't mean the last days. But that the harvest is the time when he comes, where he separate the sheep and the goat. You should also read the parable of the sheep and goat.

Secondly, notice that the same expression is used in Mt 28:20 where jesus said "I will be with you until the conclusion of the system of things". Jesus could have plainly said the the harvest is the last days, but he didn't. The problem you seem to have in having an accurate upstanding of the verse is that the NWT uses the words "conclusion of the system of things", which gives room for many meaning to be attach to the verse and many conclusions to be drawn from it. A more accurate rendering of the verse makes it simple to understand Jesus' message.

Notice how these versions of the Bible puts them...

International Version
and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

New Living Translation
The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels.

English Standard Version
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels.

New American Standard Bible
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

King James Bible
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

International Standard Version
The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The enemy who sowed them is Satan, but the harvest is the end of the world and the reapers are the Angels.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The enemy who planted them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world. The workers are angels.

New American Standard 1977
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

Jubilee Bible 2000
and the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

King James 2000 Bible
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

American King James Version
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

American Standard Version
and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.


Darby Bible Translation
and the enemy who has sowed it is the devil; and the harvest is [the] completion of [the] age, and the harvestmen are angels.

English Revised Version
and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.

Webster's Bible Translation
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


The same idea of jesus is expressed in Mt 28:20.
Notice how they are expressed in these translations

New International Version
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

New Living Translation
Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

English Standard Version
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

New American Standard Bible
teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

King James Bible
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

International Standard Version
teaching them to obey everything that I've commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age."

NET Bible
teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."


Jesus words were very clear, he didn't mean in these scriptures that he will be with his disciplines to the last days and then leave them to themselves which would have been so if the harvest was the last days, he was going to be with them, till the very end of the world, which is the harvest, the very jugdment of the world

rottennaija:




That would mean that when Jesus said, "the harvest is a conclusion of a system of things". He was saying that the harvest is the last days, which started in 1914, down to 2016 and counting?


Then you probably missed this part
"Matthew 13:39
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things,* and the reapers are angels."

Now, check the bolded. Notice jesus said, a conclusion of a system of things. That clearly shows that Jesus didn't mean the last days. But that the harvest is the time when he comes, where he separate the sheep and the goat. You should also read the parable of the sheep and goat.

Secondly, notice that the same expression is used in Mt 28:20 where jesus said "I will be with you until the conclusion of the system of things". Jesus could have plainly said the the harvest is the last days, but he didn't. The problem you seem to have in having an accurate upstanding of the verse is that the NWT uses the words "conclusion of the system of things", which gives room for many meaning to be attach to the verse and many conclusions to be drawn from it. A more accurate rendering of the verse makes it simple to understand Jesus' message.

Notice how these versions of the Bible puts them...

International Version
and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

New Living Translation
The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels.

English Standard Version
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels.

New American Standard Bible
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

King James Bible
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

International Standard Version
The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The enemy who sowed them is Satan, but the harvest is the end of the world and the reapers are the Angels.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The enemy who planted them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world. The workers are angels.

New American Standard 1977
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

Jubilee Bible 2000
and the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

King James 2000 Bible
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

American King James Version
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

American Standard Version
and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.


Darby Bible Translation
and the enemy who has sowed it is the devil; and the harvest is [the] completion of [the] age, and the harvestmen are angels.

English Revised Version
and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.

Webster's Bible Translation
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


The same idea of jesus is expressed in Mt 28:20.
Notice how they are expressed in these translations

New International Version
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

New Living Translation
Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

English Standard Version
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

New American Standard Bible
teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

King James Bible
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

International Standard Version
teaching them to obey everything that I've commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age."

NET Bible
teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."


Jesus words were very clear, he didn't mean in these scriptures that he will be with his disciplines to the last days and then leave them to themselves which would have been so if the harvest was the last days, he was going to be with them, till the very end of the world, which is the harvest, the very jugdment of the world

OK. I will respond wen am less busy.

rottennaija:


That would mean that when Jesus said, "the harvest is a conclusion of a system of things". He was saying that the harvest is the last days, which started in 1914, down to 2016 and counting?


Then you probably missed this part
"Matthew 13:39
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things,* and the reapers are angels."

Now, check the bolded. Notice Jesus said, a conclusion of a system of things. That clearly shows that Jesus didn't mean the last days. But that the harvest is the time when he comes, where he separate the sheep and the goat. You should also read the parable of the sheep and goat.

When the New Translation used that word "conclusion of the a system of things" they mean the period leading to the end of an unrighteous era/age. That is in fact the meaning of the word as used in the biblical context. Look at what Vine has to say on the meaning of the word.

"the rendering "the end of the world" (KJV and RV, text) is misleading; the RV marg., "the consummation of the age," is correct. The word does not denote a termination, but the heading up of events to the appointed climax. Aion is not the world, but a period or epoch or era in which events take place." (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words.)

Vine comment shows:

1. That the word "sunteleia" does not denote a termination but in other words, it is 'a conclusion leading to the end', not the end/climax itself.

2. That Aion which some bible versions translate as "world" as you show above is wrong. Rather it means an era or epoch in which things of significance take place. The NWT convey this sense when it translates it as "system of things".

Remember that Jesus said the the field is the "world", and Jesus never said that what will be burned up is the field, but the weeds. It will thus be wrong to say "end of the world" because the world in the illustration stands for the field not the weeds.

Secondly, notice that the same expression is used in Mt 28:20 where Jesus said "I will be with you until the conclusion of the system of things". Jesus could have plainly said the the harvest is the last days, but he didn't. The problem you seem to have in having an accurate upstanding of the verse is that the NWT uses the words "conclusion of the system of things", which gives room for many meaning to be attach to the verse and many conclusions to be drawn from it. A more accurate rendering of the verse makes it simple to understand Jesus' message.

I doesnt give such room unless you didnt understand what the NWT mean. To illustrate: When you write a paper, you often have a page for your conclusion before the writeup ends. The "end" brings the paper or topic to its climax. You dont add more thoughts to the theme after the end. That bible portion said that the harvest is a "season", not an end. A season takes a period of time, it never represents an end. The angels will go out to gather the weeds to be burned up, before going for the wheat. This takes time. The NWT wants to show that this is a period leading to the end, and not the end/climax itself.

Lending more support to the fact that it is a period of time are the words sunteleia and Aion.

Matthew 24:3 shows that these "conclusion of the system of things" will run simultaneously with the Christ' presence (some translate this as "coming". that is misleading too.)

Now what Jesus gave as an answer will show that he was showing a sign of the conclusion of an era. A sign shows you that something is present or happening or has happened. What Jesus stated is not a sign that the end had come or that we are in the end. No, it is a sign that we are living in a period so close to the end. See more proofs:

Matt 24:4-14

"In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet.
7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
9 “Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, too, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold. 13 But the one who has endured to the end will be saved. 14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come".

Jesus gave them the sign that will lead to the end, not sign for the end. Why?

1. Jesus listed the things that will occur, but in verse 6, he says that the "end is not yet". meaning that after the false christ etc, the end is not yet.

2. in verse 13, he says that he that endures to the end will be saved, meaning that the period of persecution of true Christians is not the end, even though it is part of the sign being given by Jesus. When then will the end come?

3. verse 14 says, after the preaching to people of all the nation, then the end will come. The end is thus the climax of all the horrible things Jesus listed. The end here translates "telos" not "sunteleia" (conclusion).

All these shows that when sunteleia is well translated to fit the context it is used in the Bible it will shows that the issue being discussed is not the end of the world. And it will agree with other parts of the scriptures. Now if one translate sunteleia as "end", will we not run into a confusion when verse 6 says "the end is not yet"? Remember that end is end, a climax, it does not cover a period of time. It is just a termination or climax of that system of things.

Far from living them, Jesus will be with the anointed ones (the "saints" in heaven before the era of unrighteous mankind are destroyed. matt 24:31.

JMAN05:


When the New Translation used that word "conclusion of the a system of things" they mean the period leading to the end of an unrighteous era/age. That is in fact the meaning of the word as used in the biblical context. Look at what Vine has to say on the meaning of the word.

"the rendering "the end of the world" (KJV and RV, text) is misleading; the RV marg., "the consummation of the age," is correct. The word does not denote a termination, but the heading up of events to the appointed climax. Aion is not the world, but a period or epoch or era in which events take place." (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words.)

Vine comment shows:

1. That the word "sunteleia" does not denote a termination but in other words, it is 'a conclusion leading to the end', not the end/climax itself.

2. That Aion which some bible versions translate as "world" as you show above is wrong. Rather it means an era or epoch in which things of significance take place. The NWT convey this sense when it translates it as "system of things".

Remember that Jesus said the the field is the "world", and Jesus never said that what will be burned up is the field, but the weeds. It will thus be wrong to say "end of the world" because the world in the illustration stands for the field not the weeds.



I doesnt give such room unless you didnt understand what the NWT mean. To illustrate: When you write a paper, you often have a page for your conclusion before the writeup ends. The "end" brings the paper or topic to its climax. You dont add more thoughts to the theme after the end. That bible portion said that the harvest is a "season", not an end. A season takes a period of time, it never represents an end. The angels will go out to gather the weeds to be burned up, before going for the wheat. This takes time. The NWT wants to show that this is a period leading to the end, and not the end/climax itself.

Lending more support to the fact that it is a period of time are the words sunteleia and Aion.

Matthew 24:3 shows that these "conclusion of the system of things" will run simultaneously with the Christ' presence (some translate this as "coming". that is misleading too.)

Now what Jesus gave as an answer will show that he was showing a sign of the conclusion of an era. A sign shows you that something is present or happening or has happened. What Jesus stated is not a sign that the end had come or that we are in the end. No, it is a sign that we are living in a period so close to the end. See more proofs:

Matt 24:4-14

"In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet.
7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
9 “Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, too, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold. 13 But the one who has endured to the end will be saved. 14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come".

Jesus gave them the sign that will lead to the end, not sign for the end. Why?

1. Jesus listed the things that will occur, but in verse 6, he says that the "end is not yet". meaning that after the false christ etc, the end is not yet.

2. in verse 13, he says that he that endures to the end will be saved, meaning that the period of persecution of true Christians is not the end, even though it is part of the sign being given by Jesus. When then will the end come?

3. verse 14 says, after the preaching to people of all the nation, then the end will come. The end is thus the climax of all the horrible things Jesus listed. The end here translates "telos" not "sunteleia" (conclusion).

All these shows that when sunteleia is well translated to fit the context it is used in the Bible it will shows that the issue being discussed is not the end of the world. And it will agree with other parts of the scriptures. Now if one translate sunteleia as "end", will we not run into a confusion when verse 6 says "the end is not yet"? Remember that end is end, a climax, it does not cover a period of time. It is just a termination or climax of that system of things.

Far from living them, Jesus will be with the anointed ones (the "saints" in heaven before the era of unrighteous mankind are destroyed. matt 24:31.

Wow, hmm. It's interesting. But let me stop you halfway, with all this jargons that you brought up, I don't know where.

First, you have to explain more about all those words you used. Where they appear in the Bible, because when I gave my own explainations, I used simple languages..

Aion

sunteleia

I think it would be better if you can bring up a word by word translation of the Greek text. Thanks


Anything other than that, you are just twisting the fact with words. It should be simple enough and I'm waiting because there are some things I believe you don't know that I will like to bring to your attention

rottennaija:




Wow, hmm. It's interesting. But let me stop you halfway, with all this jargons that you brought up, I don't know where.

First, you have to explain more about all those words you used. Where they appear in the Bible, because when I gave my own explainations, I used simple languages..

Aion

sunteleia

I think it would be better if you can bring up a word by word translation of the Greek text. Thanks


Anything other than that, you are just twisting the fact with words. It should be simple enough and I'm waiting because there are some things I believe you don't know that I will like to bring to your attention

We are discussing matt 13:39. nothing changed.

Aion stands for the "world" in KJV while sunteleia stands for "end" as used in KJV. is the language the bible was written a jargon to u? pls be civil, we all know how to use bad words. Remember what I said above in my first post on this thread.

I only want u to understand a point, and I did summarise my comment so that its easy to understand, also using illustration and explanation of the commentary I posted. So kindly point out areas u don't understand instead of calling it a twist. The points are clear.

JMAN05:


We are discussing matt 13:39. nothing changed.

Aion stands for the "world" in KJV while sunteleia stands for "end" as used in KJV. is the language the bible was written a jargon to u? pls be civil, we all know how to use bad words. Remember what I said above in my first post on this thread.

I only want u to understand a point, and I did summarise my comment so that its easy to understand, also using illustration and explanation of the commentary I posted. So kindly point out areas u don't understand instead of calling it a twist. The points are clear.

You still don't get it ryt? If you are bringing in words that are not English as we see in the Bible, then it would be better that you also present a direct Greek to English translations which the Bible was written, then, you can start bringing your aion and sunteleia and explaining them one after the other.


What that means is that you quote Mt 13 v 39 in both Greek and English. You also do the same for Mt 28:20. Then you will points out the words Aion and sunteleia and explain what they mean and how they are used. Don't forget, others are following this conversation as it goes.

You can't just bring in words that are supposely Greek out of nowhere and start explaining them without saying where they appear and how they are used.

That was my simple point unless it is some copy and paste that you may not even understand

rottennaija:


You still don't get it ryt? If you are bringing in words that are not English as we see in the Bible, then it would be better that you also present a direct Greek to English translations which the Bible was written, then, you can start bringing your aion and sunteleia and explaining them one after the other.


What that means is that you quote Mt 13 v 39 in both Greek and English. You also do the same for Mt 28:20. Then you will points out the words Aion and sunteleia and explain what they mean and how they are used. Don't forget, others are following this conversation as it goes.

You can't just bring in words that are supposely Greek out of nowhere and start explaining them without saying where they appear and how they are used.

That was my simple point unless it is some copy and paste that you may not even understand

And I quoted Vine's commentary which explained it. I went further to explain the commentary

It is wrong to translate sunteleia as "end" in that Matt 13:39. it is also wrong to translate "aion" as world there. it shud rather be "conclusion" and "epoch" or "system of thing" respectively.

What else do you want me to do again? u have it in English, u also have it in Greek.

There is no how I can discuss this issue with u without calling attention to the original language. That is the nature of your question.

You are saying that it should be "end of the world" while the NWT says "conclusion of a system of things". You quoted other translations too. And I want to let u know that the NWT captured the sense of the verse. how can I do that without going to the original word?

The major words which relates to the discussion is "conclusion" as opposed to "end" and "system of thing" as opposed to "world". quoting an interlinear will be canterproductive since not all the words are relevant to the discussion.

So I don't see the problem sir.

JMAN05:


And I quoted Vine's commentary which explained it. I went further to explain the commentary

It is wrong to translate sunteleia as "end" in that Matt 13:39. it is also wrong to translate "aion" as world there. it shud rather be "conclusion" and "epoch" or "system of thing" respectively.

What else do you want me to do again? u have it in English, u also have it in Greek.

There is no how I can discuss this issue with u without calling attention to the original language. That is the nature of your question.

You are saying that it should be "end of the world" while the NWT says "conclusion of a system of things". You quoted other translations too. And I want to let u know that the NWT captured the sense of the verse. how can I do that without going to the original word?

The major words which relates to the discussion is "conclusion" as opposed to "end" and "system of thing" as opposed to "world". quoting an interlinear will be canterproductive since not all the words are relevant to the discussion.

So I don't see the problem sir.

So what you are basically saying is that we have other translation saying the end of an age or world or conclusion of an age or world and we have your NWT that "captures" the sense of the passage that says the conclusion of a system of things.

You went ahead to quote Vine's commentary which you claim speaks about the original words of the verse, sunteleia and aion, whereby you provide no prove where they come from, but you simply bring them and explain them without any prove that they are actually in the verses under consideration and yet you feel you have accomplished much.


You also fail to remember that there is more information today than at any time I'm history and so, a mere goggleing of the words or the verse, you can see the whole verse in Greek and English.

Well, I will respond

rottennaija:



So what you are basically saying is that we have other translation saying the end of an age or world or conclusion of an age or world and we have your NWT that "captures" the sense of the passage that says the conclusion of a system of things.

You went ahead to quote Vine's commentary which you claim speaks about the original words of the verse, sunteleia and aion, whereby you provide no prove where they come from, but you simply bring them and explain them without any prove that they are actually in the verses under consideration and yet you feel you have accomplished much.


You also fail to remember that there is more information today than at any time I'm history and so, a mere goggleing of the words or the verse, you can see the whole verse in Greek and English.

Well, I will respond

if u think the words do not appear in the verse, prove it. if u think "conclusion" and "system of things/epoch" do not bring out the meaning of the verse, prove it. isn't that better?

I don't need to keep repeating myself.

JMAN05:


if u think the words do not appear in the verse, prove it. if u think "conclusion" and "system of things/epoch" do not bring out the meaning of the verse, prove it. isn't that better?

I don't need to keep repeating myself.

Knowing Jehovah’s Witnesses for who they are, especially as it seems that I had not response to your copy and paste from the watchtower publications, you may have given an interview in the kingdom hall or perhaps in the assembles on how you used the aids to answer someone that “attacked” your believes and probably encourage to continue so. I do have to apologize as it has taken long to respond, I had to combine work, with this research and preparation for exams and other activities like that.

From all that you have written, two things stand out.
1. The harvest of Mt 13:39 is the last days that start from 1914 and extends down to our day and counting till God knows when
2. That the words used in Mt 13:39 should not refer to the end of the world, that KJV translate it wrongl, that a more appropriate translation will be “a conclusion of the system of things” as used by NWT, which conveys the idea “correctly”.
Now, let’s briefly clarify this point. The use of words conclusion of an age, conclusion of the world, conclusion of a system of things, really in this particular verses ( Mt 13:39, Mt 28:20) does not distort the intended meaning of Christ clear simple message. The reason is, breaking “a conclusion of a system of things” into 2 parts “conclusion” and “system of things” caries the same meaning as used in other translation. Other translation uses the words “end of an age/world”.
Simply put, dividing the clause into 2 parts that it is, as can be seen from the scriptures quoted above.


NWT : “Conclusion” “a system of things”
KJV, ISV, GWTS, ANASV, etc: “end” “of ages/world”


Taking a look at the word “sunteleia”, and from your vine’s expository dictionary, your quoted "the rendering "the end of the world" (KJV and RV, text) is misleading; the RV marg., "the consummation of the age," is correct. The word does not denote a termination, but the heading up of events to the appointed climax."

Now, the question is, is “end” any different from “conclusion”? Again, is “a system of things” any different from “world/age/epoch”?

Let’s look at their definitions. You can choose any dictionary that you want to use, I am using one I have in my system.
From Encarta dictionary

end [end]
noun (plural ends)
1. extremity of object: the tip or extremity of a long narrow object
• I'm surprised he knows which end of the mike to hold.
2. extremity or limit: the limit, extent, or boundary of something
• They walked the valley from end to end.
• at both ends of the political spectrum
3. final part: the final part or finishing point of a period of time, of an event, or of a book, movie, or other work
• His address is at the end of the article.
• the end of the lesson
4. termination: the act or result of stopping something
• a scandal that brought his career to an abrupt end

con•clu•sion [kən kl'n]
(plural con•clu•sions)
noun
1. decision based on facts: a decision made or an opinion formed after considering the relevant facts or evidence
2. final part of something: the part that brings something to a close (formal)
3. final settlement of something: the completion of a formal agreement or deal, especially after long or detailed discussions and arrangements
4. closing argument in trial: the summation or closing argument at the end of the case being tried
5. LOGIC part of argument deduced from evidence: the portion of an argument for which evidence is presented


So, again, is there any different between “end” and “conclusion”? No. But does it USE depend on the on the context? Yes.
So, basically, an “end” can also refer to a period leading to the climax as “conclusion” can be used. “conclusion” can also mean the climax of an event or the very end itself. So both words “end” and “conclusion” can be used interchangeably, based on the context and the idea that the speaker has in mind.
Let’s also take a look at the word consummation or consummate as used by vine.
con•sum•ma•tion [kònssə máysh'n]
noun
1. perfect ending: the bringing of something to a satisfying conclusion, or the final satisfying completion or achievement of something
• The publication of her book was a consummation of her whole life's work.
2. legal completion of marriage by sex: the legal completion of a marriage by an act of sexual intercourse between the spouses
3. completion of deal: the finalization of something such as a business deal
transitive verb [kónssə màyt] (past and past participle con•sum•mat•ed, present participle con•sum•mat•ing, 3rd person present singular con•sum•mates )
3. conclude something: to bring something such as a business deal to a conclusion (formal)
• Leaving her business partner to consummate the deal, she boarded a flight for New York.
4. achieve something: to achieve or fulfill something, especially something long sought (formal) (often passive)
• Twelve years of effort and struggle were consummated when the foundation stone for the new theater was laid.
Microsoft® Encarta® 2009. © 1993-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

From the definition, you can also see that “consummation/consummate” even carries a stronger sense than the other two words “end” [b/] and [b] “conclusion”. It means to bring something to an end, not a period leading to an end of something. So, for vine to say that "the consummation of the age,” is correct” and NOT in HIMSELF know the meaning of consummation or consummate is worrying.
Then, it is also good to ask, if the NWT committee placed so much weight on the explanation of vine, in vine’s dictionary, why didn’t they use the words as used by vine, why did they deviate to “conclusion” that would give rise to different interpretation? Or do they not know what consummation means? The answers to these questions is very simple, using the words “conclusion of the system of things” it had to fit with a preconceived idea, giving rise to different interpretation and wrong conclusions to be drawn from the scriptures.
Then to the word “AION”
You quoted vine saying
“Aion is not the world, but a period or epoch or era in which events take place.”
You went on to explain, “Aion which some bible versions translate as "world" as you show above is wrong. Rather it means an era or epoch in which things of significance take place. The NWT conveys this sense when it translates it as "system of things".
The kingdom interlinear 1969 of Jehovah’s witnesses in mt 13:39, a direct greek to English translations says “but the harvest conclusion of age is”.
Why not stick to “age” in the verse, why change it to “system of things”? The reason?
Using “system of things” in itself is not bad if it understood correctly, but it blurs the idea of the verse and therefore subjects the verse to many interpretations so as to fit with a preconceived idea, that the conclusion of the system must have started in 1914, where you say Jesus gained heavenly power.
Question is, can world replace age/epoch in that verse? So, what do age, epoch and world mean?
Again, the dictionary speaks.
ep•och [éppək,  pòk]
(plural ep•ochs)
noun
1. significant period: a significant period in history or in somebody's life
2. start of historically significant period: the beginning of a long period of history considered particularly significant
age [ayj]
noun (plural ag•es)
Age (plural Ages) HISTORY historical period: a period in history, especially a long period or one associated with and named for a distinctive characteristic, achievement, or influential person
• the space age

world [wurld]
noun (plural worlds) (some meaning omitted)
2. Earth and everything on it: the Earth, including all of its inhabitants and the things upon it
3. human race: all of the human inhabitants of Earth
• Soon, the world would know the truth.
4. society: human society
• in the eyes of the world
13. secular existence: secular life and its ways
• a woman of the world
Microsoft® Encarta® 2009. © 1993-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Again, the question, can world be used correctly in that verse without changing the meaning or idea of the verse? The answer? Yes.
Reason? When considering the context and the idea Jesus had in mind, it could be used or substituted correctly while not altering the meaning. Again, you fail to notice that other scriptures I quoted use the words “completion of an age” to correctly portray the intended meaning of Jesus’ message.
Consider this fact, the apostle Peter said in 1 Pe 3:6
NWT: “the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water”
ESV: “The world of that then existed was deluged with water and perished”
GodsWord: “Water flooded and destroyed that world.”

The fact here is, there was a world, a period, an epoch, an era or system of things which was destroyed. If the translation was “the age of that time” or “the system of things of that time”, the intended meaning would not change. Whichever word(s) you choose to use in this verse does not blur the idea created and sent by the apostle peter. Same applies with the world, the period, the era or the system of things of today. It will end someday and another will start in its place. That is why 3 Pe 3: 13 speaks of another heaven and earth that will replace the existing one.
Now, the fact is, another will come in its place when this present one ends, how it will come is not part of this work. But it will come.
So, basically, other translation using the words “end /completion” of the “world/ age/era” all carry the same idea that the verse portrays, a world is ending and another will replace it.

You used this reason of writing a letter. You said
“To illustrate: When you write a paper, you often have a page for your conclusion before the writeup ends. The "end" brings the paper or topic to its climax. You dont add more thoughts to the theme after the end. That bible portion said that the harvest is a "season", not an end. A season takes a period of time, it never represents an end. The angels will go out to gather the weeds to be burned up, before going for the wheat. This takes time. The NWT wants to show that this is a period leading to the end, and not the end/climax itself.”
As can be seen from the definitions of end and conclusion , it is seen that using either end or conclusion depends on the context and therefore, using the wrong word can lead to a wrong conclusion.
In its strict sense you applied it, by end, you means the very the climax but conclusion you say represent the part leading to an end.
But looking again at the definitions,
end can also mean: a final part or finishing point of something and
conclusion also means: final settlement of something: the completion of a formal agreement or deal, especially after long or detailed discussions and arrangements
Now, consider this verse in Mt 25:31-34 in Jesus’ parable of the sheep and goat. Now, you will agree that in watchtower’s “new light” of this parable in 2015, they finally acknowledge that this parable represent the very end, the judgment period in which Jesus will separate the righteous from the unrighteous. (W15 3/15 pp. 24-29)
If today were 1925 and someone says that the interpretation given by the watchtower organization in this scripture is not correct, that it is wrong to conclude that the separation of the sheep and goat of Mt 25:31-34 started in 1914, that it is wrong and even presumptuous to say that through their preaching work, Jesus is using the watchtower organization to accomplish the separation of the sheep and the goat, such a person would probably be slammed with the label “APOSTATE”, because he has dared to question the governing body’s teaching, and such a person would be compared to Korah, Datham and Abiram.
It is good to also be aware that the judgment, where Jesus separates the sheep and the goats, is not going an instantaneous event, happening within a twinkle of an eye. It is going to take a period of time, just like it takes a period to separate sheep from goat, and even that part that talks about the goat receiving their everlasting judgment is still going to take a period of time.
Again, notice that the same idea is applicable to the issue of the harvest, harvest time takes a period of time, and even the burning of the weeds after separation also takes a period of time. But these activities are the work assigned by Jehovah to Jesus for him to carry out. So, when the other bible translations says “The harvest is the “end/conclusion/completion of the age/world/”, it really conveys the idea behind Jesus’ words and clearly creates no room for double meaning unlike when the NWT says “conclusion of a system of things”.
Again, notice that Jesus said, “The reapers are angels”. Remember also that it is the reapers that actually do the harvesting, and when they finish harvesting, they separate and burn/throw away the bad ones. The work of the angels in the judgment of this unrighteous world will be to ride with Jesus to destroy wicked people, not the anointed and definitely, not the great crowd.
So, the watchtower cannot wrongly apply that part of the bible about angels preaching the good news as glad tidings, in Re 14:6, thereby saying that angels having a part in the preaching work thereby fulfill their role as harvesters/reapers.
Now, let’s go deep into the parables of Jesus and explain things you may not have been aware of, what each parable represent and why Jesus said them.
In the first part of the parable, in Mt 13:24-30, which reads “While men were sleeping, his enemy came and over-sowed weeds in among the wheat and left.”
Here, the watchtower organization wants us to believe that in verse 25, the “men sleeping” in referred here where the apostles that later died. And as a result of that, apostasy came into the Christian congregation or faith. This has been the reasoning (understanding) for as long as I can remember. But they also fail (willingly? I do not know) to recognize that those men that sleep in Jesus parable where also the people that when to the master and then reported their observation.
They said to him “Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?” So they “men” saw him sow the seeds and also observed a difference when the seeds began growing. They could confidently ask the master about what they knew he sow and what they also observed happened. So, it is good then to ask, if the “men sleeping” fulfilled in the apostles that died, when did they resurrect to ask the master the question in verse 25?
The fact? The reasoning does not add up neither is it consistent with the passage. Now, it is a well-known fact that the watchtower organization has a way of interpreting scriptures to fit with their doctrine, either through providing information that is less accurate, misrepresentation or misapplication or completely out of point.
Secondly, let look at the second part of the parable, where Jesus gave the meaning in verses 36-43.
Getting to the part where Jesus said:
“40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.”
Now, the watchtower organization would want us to believe that in this part of the scriptures that speaks of angels “the reapers”, separating the weeds from the find seeds. That it is in the preaching work that the organization is carrying out that the angels are aiding and so, they are fulfilling the words of this parable. However, it still is wrong and falls short of the idea or intent of Jesus words.
Now, I would like to ask, what role will the angels play in the destruction of the wicked world? Is it any different from the role Jesus describes for the angels in this scripture? At least, from the watchtower of March 15, pages 24-29 referred to early, the society was humble to enough to now say what he scriptures actually said, that the separation of the sheep and goat actually takes place “towards the end of the great tribulation when the son of man comes in his glory.”
Now, compare the roles of the angels in Mt 25:31, 32 and Mt 13: 40-42. (I know as a witness you are, you will want to argue that in Mt 25, it is the Jesus that does the separation and in Mt 13, it is the angel that does the separation). So, while doing, remember, Jesus is the leader and so can rightly be said to be one doing the work. Even in the work of separating the fine seeds from the weeds, Jesus gives the direction to the reapers and can also be said to be one leading the work.
Also, remember this

*** w07 3/15 p. 25 par. 18 Angels—How They Affect Mankind ***
Angels will serve as God’s executional forces in the near future. Very soon now, Jesus will come “with his powerful angels in a flaming fire.” Their mission will be to bring “vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7, ”
*** w06 1/15 p. 6 Angels—How They Affect Us ***
Angels Execute God’s Judgment
Though they are not authorized to judge humans, angels are not mere bystanders. (John 5:22; Hebrews 12:22, 23) Serving as executioners, they carried out God’s judgments in times past. For example, God used angels in his fight against the ancient Egyptians, who were holding the Israelites in bondage. (Psalm 78:49) And it was in one night that “the angel of Jehovah” struck down a hundred and eighty-five thousand soldiers in the camp of an enemy of God’s people.—2 Kings 19:35.
In the future too, angels will execute God’s adverse judgment. Jesus will come “with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7,
The point remains, angels have a role to play in the execution of divine justice, whether Jesus is said to be doing it alone or leading the angels, He Jesus leads, gives direction while angels follow through. Then also, the process of separating the fine seeds from the weeds, burning the weeds, gathering the fine seeds into the store houses is not something that will happen in a day or an hour, just like the process of separating a sheep from the goats, destroying the goats and awarding the sheep is not something that happens instantly, but it still happens right in the end of the wicked world where we live. Or would you say that this scripture about the end of the world is something that does not take more than a week or months?
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8: “But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.”
Even the destruction of Noah’s day took a period of time, 40 for the rain, and some more days before they could finally resettle. So it was also with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians and the Romans. These events didn’t just happen out of the blues, it took time, but it can rightly be said that the world of that time ended.
So, other translation of the bible saying “end/conclusion/completion of the age/world/”, conveys the idea of Jesus parable more accurately, without allowing room for double meaning to be attached to the verses and the intent of Jesus words. So, further explanation Jesus gave about the parable explains it well and adds credence to it.
Again, let me refer you to the worlds of Mt 28:20, where it reads
New World Translation
“And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

If the WT doctrine of Jesus words in this verse is that the “conclusion of the system of things” is the[b] last days [/b] that started in 1914, do you also intend to believe Jesus was going to support his followers untill it gets to the last days and then, when the last days began, in 1914, he leaves them to themselves? Or that Jesus was actually telling his disciples that he was going to be with them until the last days (1914) and then no longer support them?

It is something to think about, but remember this.

Until means
un•til [un tíl]
conjunction, prep
1. up to time: up to a time or event, but not afterward
• conjunction I lived with my grandparents until I was ten.
• prep from the late 1980s until 1994
2. before: before a time or event (used in negative statements)
• conjunction She agreed not to write about the case until a verdict was reached.
• prep He did not open his mail until Monday.

But look again at these translations and see which of them gives an accurate rendering of the verse.

New International Version: “And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

New Living Translation: “And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

English Standard Version: “And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

King James Bible: “and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Now, again, if, I mean if, Jesus was not talking about the last days in these verses, which translation accurately renders the words of Jesus without giving room for double meaning or ideas not there to be brought into the verse?

The fact is this, translating the verse as the “conclusion of the system of things” gives rise to double meaning and therefore, conclusions that does not fit the verse or is not what Jesus intended is drawn from it as I have pointed out in this work.


If the watchtower or the Christian congregation is going to be honest with themselves and with the witnesses reading everything that comes from them, they will know that their explanation does not fit the material neither is it true or reflect the idea behind those verses or what Jesus had in mind. Period. But, can they? Will they?

Summary?

In Jesus parable of the sower in Mt 13:24-30, 36 - 43.
1. The harvest of is the end of the world, when Jesus and his angels execute judgment on this wicked world, and not the last days that we witnesses believe started in 1914.
2. using the idea that the harvest takes a period of time and so the harvest of the parable must be the last days is very wrong and is intentionally manipulated to fit in with the Watchtower’s doctrine that Jesus was enthroned in 1914 and therefore, the last days started then with the preaching work taking place.
3. The fact is the destruction of the wicked world or the judgment of this world will not be instantaneous actions that happen outside of the blues, but will take some period of time, just like the destruction of world in time past took some time. How long did it take for the world of Noah’s day to be destroyed? How about Jerusalem’s destruction by the Babylonian or the Romans?
4. Other bible translations, like King James Version, New Living Translation, English Standard Version among others translating the verse “end/conclusion/completion of the age/world/”, is not misleading, rather it gives a more accurate idea of the verse without creating room for double meaning or for other ideas to be included in Jesus words.
5. The New World Translation rendering the verse as “conclusion of the system of things”, would in itself, not be wrong if it were correctly understood, however, it gives room for interpretation that Jesus words didn’t carry to be introduced into the verse and therefore is not a good rendering of the verse.
6. If the watchtower writers placed so much emphasis on the works of vine, why did they not translate it exactly as vine put it, that is “the consummation of the age” , which would have left no room for double meaning? Again, it is disturbing that they would not know the meaning of “consummation”. Or is it?

I will stop there. But my advice to any Jehovah’s Witness reading this is, try reading to see what the bible really says. You will be surprise that what you may have been reading and hearing is indeed what the watchtower really teaches and not what the bible really says.

joyandfaith:

JMAN05:

feldido:

goodnews201668:

OAM4J:

Mynd44:

Efrankbblog:

major466:

paulGrundy:

goodnewscliff:

rottennaija:

I do have to apologize as it has taken long to respond, I had to combine work, with this research and preparation for exams and other activities like that.

No p.

From all that you have written, two things stand out.
1. The harvest of Mt 13:39 is the last days that start from 1914 and extends down to our day and counting till God knows when
2. That the words used in Mt 13:39 should not refer to the end of the world, that KJV translate it wrongl, that a more appropriate translation will be “a conclusion of the system of things” as used by NWT, which conveys the idea “correctly”.
Now, let’s briefly clarify this point. The use of words conclusion of an age, conclusion of the world, conclusion of a system of things, really in this particular verses ( Mt 13:39, Mt 28:20) does not distort the intended meaning of Christ clear simple message. The reason is, breaking “a conclusion of a system of things” into 2 parts “conclusion” and “system of things” caries the same meaning as used in other translation. Other translation uses the words “end of an age/world”.
Simply put, dividing the clause into 2 parts that it is, as can be seen from the scriptures quoted above.


NWT : “Conclusion” “a system of things”
KJV, ISV, GWTS, ANASV, etc: “end” “of ages/world”


Taking a look at the word “sunteleia”, and from your vine’s expository dictionary, your quoted "the rendering "the end of the world" (KJV and RV, text) is misleading; the RV marg., "the consummation of the age," is correct. The word does not denote a termination, but the heading up of events to the appointed climax."

Now, the question is, is “end” any different from “conclusion”? Again, is “a system of things” any different from “world/age/epoch”?

Let’s look at their definitions. You can choose any dictionary that you want to use, I am using one I have in my system.
From Encarta dictionary

end [end]
noun (plural ends)
1. extremity of object: the tip or extremity of a long narrow object
• I'm surprised he knows which end of the mike to hold.
2. extremity or limit: the limit, extent, or boundary of something
• They walked the valley from end to end.
• at both ends of the political spectrum
3. final part: the final part or finishing point of a period of time, of an event, or of a book, movie, or other work
• His address is at the end of the article.
• the end of the lesson
4. termination: the act or result of stopping something
• a scandal that brought his career to an abrupt end

con•clu•sion [kən kl'n]
(plural con•clu•sions)
noun
1. decision based on facts: a decision made or an opinion formed after considering the relevant facts or evidence
2. final part of something: the part that brings something to a close (formal)
3. final settlement of something: the completion of a formal agreement or deal, especially after long or detailed discussions and arrangements
4. closing argument in trial: the summation or closing argument at the end of the case being tried
5. LOGIC part of argument deduced from evidence: the portion of an argument for which evidence is presented


So, again, is there any different between “end” and “conclusion”? No. But does it USE depend on the on the context? Yes.
So, basically, an “end” can also refer to a period leading to the climax as “conclusion” can be used. “conclusion” can also mean the climax of an event or the very end itself. So both words “end” and “conclusion” can be used interchangeably, based on the context and the idea that the speaker has in mind.
Let’s also take a look at the word consummation or consummate as used by vine.
con•sum•ma•tion [kònssə máysh'n]
noun
1. perfect ending: the bringing of something to a satisfying conclusion, or the final satisfying completion or achievement of something
• The publication of her book was a consummation of her whole life's work.
2. legal completion of marriage by sex: the legal completion of a marriage by an act of sexual intercourse between the spouses
3. completion of deal: the finalization of something such as a business deal
transitive verb [kónssə màyt] (past and past participle con•sum•mat•ed, present participle con•sum•mat•ing, 3rd person present singular con•sum•mates )
3. conclude something: to bring something such as a business deal to a conclusion (formal)
• Leaving her business partner to consummate the deal, she boarded a flight for New York.
4. achieve something: to achieve or fulfill something, especially something long sought (formal) (often passive)
• Twelve years of effort and struggle were consummated when the foundation stone for the new theater was laid.
Microsoft® Encarta® 2009. © 1993-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

From the definition, you can also see that “consummation/consummate” even carries a stronger sense than the other two words “end” [b/] and [b] “conclusion”. It means to bring something to an end, not a period leading to an end of something. So, for vine to say that "the consummation of the age,” is correct” and NOT in HIMSELF know the meaning of consummation or consummate is worrying.
Then, it is also good to ask, if the NWT committee placed so much weight on the explanation of vine, in vine’s dictionary, why didn’t they use the words as used by vine, why did they deviate to “conclusion” that would give rise to different interpretation? Or do they not know what consummation means? The answers to these questions is very simple, using the words “conclusion of the system of things” it had to fit with a preconceived idea, giving rise to different interpretation and wrong conclusions to be drawn from the scriptures.
Then to the word “AION”
You quoted vine saying
“Aion is not the world, but a period or epoch or era in which events take place.”
You went on to explain, “Aion which some bible versions translate as "world" as you show above is wrong. Rather it means an era or epoch in which things of significance take place. The NWT conveys this sense when it translates it as "system of things".
The kingdom interlinear 1969 of Jehovah’s witnesses in mt 13:39, a direct greek to English translations says “but the harvest conclusion of age is”.
Why not stick to “age” in the verse, why change it to “system of things”? The reason?
Using “system of things” in itself is not bad if it understood correctly, but it blurs the idea of the verse and therefore subjects the verse to many interpretations so as to fit with a preconceived idea, that the conclusion of the system must have started in 1914, where you say Jesus gained heavenly power.
Question is, can world replace age/epoch in that verse? So, what do age, epoch and world mean?
Again, the dictionary speaks.
ep•och [éppək,  pòk]
(plural ep•ochs)
noun
1. significant period: a significant period in history or in somebody's life
2. start of historically significant period: the beginning of a long period of history considered particularly significant
age [ayj]
noun (plural ag•es)
Age (plural Ages) HISTORY historical period: a period in history, especially a long period or one associated with and named for a distinctive characteristic, achievement, or influential person
• the space age

world [wurld]
noun (plural worlds) (some meaning omitted)
2. Earth and everything on it: the Earth, including all of its inhabitants and the things upon it
3. human race: all of the human inhabitants of Earth
• Soon, the world would know the truth.
4. society: human society
• in the eyes of the world
13. secular existence: secular life and its ways
• a woman of the world
Microsoft® Encarta® 2009. © 1993-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

This rebuttal is highly disingenuous. Secondly, you seem to misunderstand definition esp on the area of "conclusion" and "end". Definition 3 of "conclusion" does not fall into the context of what we are discussing. And notice that in the "end" definition, it carries "termination" while "conclusion" does not.

You can only argue on definition 2. however, the final part of something is basically not the end. The final part of your term paper topic is the "CONCLUSION" part. But that is not the termination/climax of the work. When something ends, nothing else on that work is done. Pls consult wikidiff,com to know that there is a difference between the two.

Your reply is disingenuous. Pls reread my writeup once more. I see no valid rebuttal here.

When the New Translation used that word "conclusion of the a system of things" they mean the period leading to the end of an unrighteous era/age. That is in fact the meaning of the word as used in the biblical context. Look at what Vine has to say on the meaning of the word.

"the rendering "the end of the world" (KJV and RV, text) is misleading; the RV marg., "the consummation of the age," is correct. The word does not denote a termination, but the heading up of events to the appointed climax. Aion is not the world, but a period or epoch or era in which events take place." (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words.)

Vine comment shows:

1. That the word "sunteleia" does not denote a termination but in other words, it is 'a conclusion leading to the end', not the end/climax itself.

2. That Aion which some bible versions translate as "world" as you show above is wrong. Rather it means an era or epoch in which things of significance take place. The NWT convey this sense when it translates it as "system of things".

Remember that Jesus said the the field is the "world", and Jesus never said that what will be burned up is the field, but the weeds. It will thus be wrong to say "end of the world" because the world in the illustration stands for the field not the weeds.



I doesnt give such room unless you didnt understand what the NWT mean. To illustrate: When you write a paper, you often have a page for your conclusion before the writeup ends. The "end" brings the paper or topic to its climax. You dont add more thoughts to the theme after the end. That bible portion said that the harvest is a "season", not an end. A season takes a period of time, it never represents an end. The angels will go out to gather the weeds to be burned up, before going for the wheat. This takes time. The NWT wants to show that this is a period leading to the end, and not the end/climax itself.

Lending more support to the fact that it is a period of time are the words sunteleia and Aion.

Matthew 24:3 shows that these "conclusion of the system of things" will run simultaneously with the Christ' presence (some translate this as "coming". that is misleading too.)

Now what Jesus gave as an answer will show that he was showing a sign of the conclusion of an era. A sign shows you that something is present or happening or has happened. What Jesus stated is not a sign that the end had come or that we are in the end. No, it is a sign that we are living in a period so close to the end. See more proofs:

Matt 24:4-14

"In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet.
7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
9 “Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, too, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold. 13 But the one who has endured to the end will be saved. 14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come".

Jesus gave them the sign that will lead to the end, not sign for the end. Why?

1. Jesus listed the things that will occur, but in verse 6, he says that the "end is not yet". meaning that after the false christ etc, the end is not yet.

2. in verse 13, he says that he that endures to the end will be saved, meaning that the period of persecution of true Christians is not the end, even though it is part of the sign being given by Jesus. When then will the end come?

3. verse 14 says, after the preaching to people of all the nation, then the end will come. The end is thus the climax of all the horrible things Jesus listed. The end here translates "telos" not "sunteleia" (conclusion).

All these shows that when sunteleia is well translated to fit the context it is used in the Bible it will shows that the issue being discussed is not the end of the world. And it will agree with other parts of the scriptures. Now if one translate sunteleia as "end", will we not run into a confusion when verse 6 says "the end is not yet"? Remember that end is end, a climax, it does not cover a period of time. It is just a termination or climax of that system of things.

Far from living them, Jesus will be with the anointed ones (the "saints"wink in heaven before the era of unrighteous mankind are destroyed. matt 24:31.

rottennaija:
Again, the question, can world be used correctly in that verse without changing the meaning or idea of the verse? The answer? Yes.
Reason? When considering the context and the idea Jesus had in mind, it could be used or substituted correctly while not altering the meaning. Again, you fail to notice that other scriptures I quoted use the words “completion of an age” to correctly portray the intended meaning of Jesus’ message.
Consider this fact, the apostle Peter said in 1 Pe 3:6
NWT: “the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water”
ESV: “The world of that then existed was deluged with water and perished”
GodsWord: “Water flooded and destroyed that world.

The fact here is, there was a world, a period, an epoch, an era or system of things which was destroyed. If the translation was “the age of that time” or “the system of things of that time”, the intended meaning would not change. Whichever word(s) you choose to use in this verse does not blur the idea created and sent by the apostle peter. Same applies with the world, the period, the era or the system of things of today. It will end someday and another will start in its place. That is why 3 Pe 3: 13 speaks of another heaven and earth that will replace the existing one.
Now, the fact is, another will come in its place when this present one ends, how it will come is not part of this work. But it will come.
So, basically, other translation using the words “end /completion” of the “world/ age/era” all carry the same idea that the verse portrays, a world is ending and another will replace it.

The world at 2pet 3:6 is "kosmos" not "aion". Of course another system of thing will replace the present one.

You used this reason of writing a letter. You said
“To illustrate: When you write a paper, you often have a page for your conclusion before the writeup ends. The "end" brings the paper or topic to its climax. You dont add more thoughts to the theme after the end. That bible portion said that the harvest is a "season", not an end. A season takes a period of time, it never represents an end. The angels will go out to gather the weeds to be burned up, before going for the wheat. This takes time. The NWT wants to show that this is a period leading to the end, and not the end/climax itself.”
As can be seen from the definitions of end and conclusion , it is seen that using either end or conclusion depends on the context and therefore, using the wrong word can lead to a wrong conclusion.
In its strict sense you applied it, by end, you means the very the climax but conclusion you say represent the part leading to an end.
But looking again at the definitions,
end can also mean: a final part or finishing point of something and
conclusion also means: final settlement of something: the completion of a formal agreement or deal, especially after long or detailed discussions and arrangements

That definition does not fall into the context of what we are discussing. see above.

Now, consider this verse in Mt 25:31-34 in Jesus’ parable of the sheep and goat. Now, you will agree that in watchtower’s “new light” of this parable in 2015, they finally acknowledge that this parable represent the very end, the judgment period in which Jesus will separate the righteous from the unrighteous. (W15 3/15 pp. 24-29)
If today were 1925 and someone says that the interpretation given by the watchtower organization in this scripture is not correct, that it is wrong to conclude that the separation of the sheep and goat of Mt 25:31-34 started in 1914, that it is wrong and even presumptuous to say that through their preaching work, Jesus is using the watchtower organization to accomplish the separation of the sheep and the goat, such a person would probably be slammed with the label “APOSTATE”, because he has dared to question the governing body’s teaching, and such a person would be compared to Korah, Datham and Abiram.

The new understanding does not say that mat 25:31-34 is talking about the "very end". It describes what will happen during the great tribulation. No one will brand you an apostate. in fact if you believe gullibly what we teach, you are not a true witness.

It is good to also be aware that the judgment, where Jesus separates the sheep and the goats, is not going an instantaneous event, happening within a twinkle of an eye. It is going to take a period of time, just like it takes a period to separate sheep from goat, and even that part that talks about the goat receiving their everlasting judgment is still going to take a period of time.
Again, notice that the same idea is applicable to the issue of the harvest, harvest time takes a period of time, and even the burning of the weeds after separation also takes a period of time. But these activities are the work assigned by Jehovah to Jesus for him to carry out. So, when the other bible translations says “The harvest is the “end/conclusion/completion of the age/world/”, it really conveys the idea behind Jesus’ words and clearly creates no room for double meaning unlike when the NWT says “conclusion of a system of things”.
Again, notice that Jesus said, “The reapers are angels”. Remember also that it is the reapers that actually do the harvesting, and when they finish harvesting, they separate and burn/throw away the bad ones. The work of the angels in the judgment of this unrighteous world will be to ride with Jesus to destroy wicked people, not the anointed and definitely, not the great crowd.
So, the watchtower cannot wrongly apply that part of the bible about angels preaching the good news as glad tidings, in Re 14:6, thereby saying that angels having a part in the preaching work thereby fulfill their role as harvesters/reapers.
Now, let’s go deep into the parables of Jesus and explain things you may not have been aware of, what each parable represent and why Jesus said them.
In the first part of the parable, in Mt 13:24-30, which reads “While men were sleeping, his enemy came and over-sowed weeds in among the wheat and left.”
Here, the watchtower organization wants us to believe that in verse 25, the “men sleeping” in referred here where the apostles that later died. And as a result of that, apostasy came into the Christian congregation or faith. This has been the reasoning (understanding) for as long as I can remember. But they also fail (willingly? I do not know) to recognize that those men that sleep in Jesus parable where also the people that when to the master and then reported their observation.
They said to him “Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?” So they “men” saw him sow the seeds and also observed a difference when the seeds began growing. They could confidently ask the master about what they knew he sow and what they also observed happened. So, it is good then to ask, if the “men sleeping” fulfilled in the apostles that died, when did they resurrect to ask the master the question in verse 25?

Simple: the slaves that ask the question is not the same as the "men sleeping". The Slaves in the illustration evidently picture the angels. In the illustration, the heavenly class is pictured by the wheat not slaves.

The fact? The reasoning does not add up neither is it consistent with the passage. Now, it is a well-known fact that the watchtower organization has a way of interpreting scriptures to fit with their doctrine, either through providing information that is less accurate, misrepresentation or misapplication or completely out of point.
Secondly, let look at the second part of the parable, where Jesus gave the meaning in verses 36-43.
Getting to the part where Jesus said:
“40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.”
Now, the watchtower organization would want us to believe that in this part of the scriptures that speaks of angels “the reapers”, separating the weeds from the find seeds. That it is in the preaching work that the organization is carrying out that the angels are aiding and so, they are fulfilling the words of this parable. However, it still is wrong and falls short of the idea or intent of Jesus words.

We didnt take part in the fulfillment of the separation aspect of the scripture. The comment is assuming alot. Where did you get that from?

Now, I would like to ask, what role will the angels play in the destruction of the wicked world? Is it any different from the role Jesus describes for the angels in this scripture? At least, from the watchtower of March 15, pages 24-29 referred to early, the society was humble to enough to now say what he scriptures actually said, that the separation of the sheep and goat actually takes place “towards the end of the great tribulation when the son of man comes in his glory.”
Now, compare the roles of the angels in Mt 25:31, 32 and Mt 13: 40-42. (I know as a witness you are, you will want to argue that in Mt 25, it is the Jesus that does the separation and in Mt 13, it is the angel that does the separation). So, while doing, remember, Jesus is the leader and so can rightly be said to be one doing the work. Even in the work of separating the fine seeds from the weeds, Jesus gives the direction to the reapers and can also be said to be one leading the work.
Also, remember this

*** w07 3/15 p. 25 par. 18 Angels—How They Affect Mankind ***
Angels will serve as God’s executional forces in the near future. Very soon now, Jesus will come “with his powerful angels in a flaming fire.” Their mission will be to bring “vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7, ”
*** w06 1/15 p. 6 Angels—How They Affect Us ***
Angels Execute God’s Judgment
Though they are not authorized to judge humans, angels are not mere bystanders. (John 5:22; Hebrews 12:22, 23) Serving as executioners, they carried out God’s judgments in times past. For example, God used angels in his fight against the ancient Egyptians, who were holding the Israelites in bondage. (Psalm 78:49) And it was in one night that “the angel of Jehovah” struck down a hundred and eighty-five thousand soldiers in the camp of an enemy of God’s people.—2 Kings 19:35.
In the future too, angels will execute God’s adverse judgment. Jesus will come “with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7,
The point remains, angels have a role to play in the execution of divine justice, whether Jesus is said to be doing it alone or leading the angels, He Jesus leads, gives direction while angels follow through. Then also, the process of separating the fine seeds from the weeds, burning the weeds, gathering the fine seeds into the store houses is not something that will happen in a day or an hour, just like the process of separating a sheep from the goats, destroying the goats and awarding the sheep is not something that happens instantly, but it still happens right in the end of the wicked world where we live. Or would you say that this scripture about the end of the world is something that does not take more than a week or months?
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8: “But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.”
Even the destruction of Noah’s day took a period of time, 40 for the rain, and some more days before they could finally resettle. So it was also with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians and the Romans. These events didn’t just happen out of the blues, it took time, but it can rightly be said that the world of that time ended.
So, other translation of the bible saying “end/conclusion/completion of the age/world/”, conveys the idea of Jesus parable more accurately, without allowing room for double meaning to be attached to the verses and the intent of Jesus words. So, further explanation Jesus gave about the parable explains it well and adds credence to it.
Again, let me refer you to the worlds of Mt 28:20, where it reads
New World Translation
“And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

If the WT doctrine of Jesus words in this verse is that the “conclusion of the system of things” is the[b] last days [/b] that started in 1914, do you also intend to believe Jesus was going to support his followers untill it gets to the last days and then, when the last days began, in 1914, he leaves them to themselves? Or that Jesus was actually telling his disciples that he was going to be with them until the last days (1914) and then no longer support them?

It is something to think about, but remember this.

Until means
un•til [un tíl]
conjunction, prep
1. up to time: up to a time or event, but not afterward
• conjunction I lived with my grandparents until I was ten.
• prep from the late 1980s until 1994
2. before: before a time or event (used in negative statements)
• conjunction She agreed not to write about the case until a verdict was reached.
• prep He did not open his mail until Monday.

We read:

Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things

The point: Jesus is saying that there work to carry out the preaching work, he will be with them all the days, until the conclusion of the system of things. When the end comes, they wont be doing preaching. In fact, they will be with Jesus in person, no longer Jesus being with them from heaven. 1thes 4:17

There is nothing in the scripture to indicate that the end will take up to a week or months. And neither is there any need to be dogmatic. What happened in Noah's day was paralleled with the presence of the son of man, not the end(telos). mat 24:36-39

however, Matt 24 helps us understand the difference between conclusion and end. see my previous post above.

But look again at these translations and see which of them gives an accurate rendering of the verse.

New International Version: “And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

New Living Translation: “And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

English Standard Version: “And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

King James Bible: “and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Now, again, if, I mean if, Jesus was not talking about the last days in these verses, which translation accurately renders the words of Jesus without giving room for double meaning or ideas not there to be brought into the verse?

The fact is this, translating the verse as the “conclusion of the system of things” gives rise to double meaning and therefore, conclusions that does not fit the verse or is not what Jesus intended is drawn from it as I have pointed out in this work.


If the watchtower or the Christian congregation is going to be honest with themselves and with the witnesses reading everything that comes from them, they will know that their explanation does not fit the material neither is it true or reflect the idea behind those verses or what Jesus had in mind. Period. But, can they? Will they?

Summary?

In Jesus parable of the sower in Mt 13:24-30, 36 - 43.
1. The harvest of is the end of the world, when Jesus and his angels execute judgment on this wicked world, and not the last days that we witnesses believe started in 1914.
2. using the idea that the harvest takes a period of time and so the harvest of the parable must be the last days is very wrong and is intentionally manipulated to fit in with the Watchtower’s doctrine that Jesus was enthroned in 1914 and therefore, the last days started then with the preaching work taking place.
3. The fact is the destruction of the wicked world or the judgment of this world will not be instantaneous actions that happen outside of the blues, but will take some period of time, just like the destruction of world in time past took some time. How long did it take for the world of Noah’s day to be destroyed? How about Jerusalem’s destruction by the Babylonian or the Romans?
4. Other bible translations, like King James Version, New Living Translation, English Standard Version among others translating the verse “end/conclusion/completion of the age/world/”, is not misleading, rather it gives a more accurate idea of the verse without creating room for double meaning or for other ideas to be included in Jesus words.
5. The New World Translation rendering the verse as “conclusion of the system of things”, would in itself, not be wrong if it were correctly understood, however, it gives room for interpretation that Jesus words didn’t carry to be introduced into the verse and therefore is not a good rendering of the verse.
6. If the watchtower writers placed so much emphasis on the works of vine, why did they not translate it exactly as vine put it, that is “the consummation of the age” , which would have left no room for double meaning? Again, it is disturbing that they would not know the meaning of “consummation”. Or is it?

I will stop there. But my advice to any Jehovah’s Witness reading this is, try reading to see what the bible really says. You will be surprise that what you may have been reading and hearing is indeed what the watchtower really teaches and not what the bible really says.

You are bent on saying the same thing all through, and none has been a good rebuttal but a comment that fails to address the main point.