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Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality - Religion - Nairaland

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Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by winner01(m): 4:10pm On Jul 16, 2016
Atheists frequently accuse Christians of behaving “immorally” and religion of being “evil.” But such objections to religion bring up an interesting question: how do secular humanists or atheists define evil and morality and by what authority do they make such statements?




Nothing but Subjective Opinion

For the atheist or secular humanist, there is no foundation for morality besides his or her own subjective opinion. These individuals often throw around words such as evil, immoral, moral, or ethical, often in the context of Christian religion or Christian individuals. They will say things such as “religion is evil” or that teaching creation to children is “child abuse,” but what do they mean by these phrases?

In their worldview, what makes anything immoral or wrong? Really it boils down to nothing more than their opinion. They believe that something is wrong, and therefore it must be. But who is to say that their opinion is the right one? After all, there are many different opinions on what is right and wrong. Who decides which one is right and which one is wrong?

That atheism and secular humanism cannot provide a foundation for morality is a strong argument. Here are a few responses that you may hear if you bring up this objection.




Society Decides Morality

Some atheists will argue that morality is simply decided by the society. For example, The American society has decided that murdering an innocent human being is wrong and therefore that action is morally wrong. But this kind of thinking simply does not hold up to scrutiny.

Society often changes its opinion. One clear example of this is in regards to gay “marriage.” What was considered morally wrong by most of society is now legal, applauded, and celebrated by some groups. In this view, homosexual behavior went from being morally wrong to being morally acceptable. What if our society decides that murder is acceptable, as it did in the case of Roe v. Wade when America legalized the killing of unborn children? Does murder suddenly become morally acceptable too? What about adultery, stealing, lying, or any other manner of morally reprehensible actions? Would the atheist or humanist accept a society that decides that society can kill all atheists and humanists? If society is the moral compass, then the compass never points north but rather jumps all over the place and changes with every generation.

Also if society determines morality, how can one society tell another society what is right or wrong? Most people would agree that the abhorrent actions of the Nazi death camps were morally wrong. But why? Nazi Germany decided as a society that these actions were morally acceptable. What right does our society have to judge their society if morality is simply a societal preference?

Or what about certain radical Muslim groups? Few would agree that blowing up innocent civilians, slaughtering hundreds of people from other religious groups, kidnapping and enslaving young women, or using children as suicide bombers is morally acceptable. Yet if morality is simply a societal preference, what right does our society have to tell their society that their actions are wrong and must be stopped?

The consistent atheist or humanist can say nothing if that is the ethic a society has decided is right. In this view, the atheist, based on his arbitrary opinion, might not agree with their ethic, but he has no rationale to say anything or try to put a stop to it. If morality is simply decided by societal preference, it fails to make any sense and becomes arbitrary, subject to change by time and culture.




Human Reason

The problem only gets worse when you break it down to a personal level. Some secularists will argue that morality is an individual decision and no one has the right to tell another person what to do (this is called “autonomous human reason”). Of course, the irony of such a statement should be evident. By saying that no one should tell someone else what to do, they have just told someone else what to do!

If secularists really believed this, then they couldn’t say “religion is evil” in the first place since it is not their place to say.

If this view of morality is true, then our justice system cannot exist. After all, why should one judge, legislative assembly, or government body impose their view of morality on another individual? If stealing, killing, raping, or abusing is right for one individual, what gives another individual the right to say that view of morality is wrong?

Now this personal morality or human reasoning view stems from the idea that people are basically good and that, left on our own, humans tend to do right and not wrong (again, who defines right and wrong?). But humans aren’t basically good! Human experience shows that throughout history humans have committed atrocities, even in our supposedly enlightened Western world. The Bible describes the fallen human heart this way:

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9)
And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done. (Genesis 8:21)
To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. (Titus 1:15)

Autonomous human reason simply does not provide a sufficient foundation for morality.




Did Morality Evolve?

From human experience, we seem to naturally and intuitively know that actions such as murder, stealing, and child abandonment are wrong for all people everywhere. But where does this intuitive sense come from?

Evolutionists, by necessity, believe that morality (along with everything else) is simply the result of evolution. Somehow after billions of years of death, struggle, atrocities, disease, and suffering, man realized that we should strive to do the opposite! Man should oppose survival of the fittest and try to be moral. In their worldview, we are nothing more than highly evolved animals, and our brains are nothing more than chemical reactions. We are simply the product of our DNA.

This view raises the question of how the strictly naturalistic process of evolution leads to the development of an immaterial, absolute moral conscience that somehow applies to all people everywhere? And what happens if this conscience evolves? Does morality change again?

And furthermore, if we are simply animals, why are we held morally accountable? After all, we certainly don’t hold animals accountable for their actions. No lion court exists to punish lions that maul gazelles to death and then eat them. No one jails a female cuckoo for abandoning her babies or forces male rabbits to pay child support. These are simply the things animals in this cursed world do, and no one faults them for doing it. If we are just animals, what makes humans so different?

The problem gets even worse if you argue that our brains are nothing more than random chemical reactions and that we are at the mercy of our DNA. If we are just programmed DNA, then how can we be held accountable for any of our decisions? Because there is no free will in a view such as this, there is no accountability for decisions or actions.

Morality simply cannot be the result of naturalistic processes over millions of years. This view does not hold up to close examination, and really it is the opposite of what we know to be true from human experience and the Bible’s teachings.




Moral Atheists?

When faced with their worldview’s inability to provide a foundation for morality, many atheists respond by claiming that you don’t have to be religious to be moral. It’s true that plenty of atheists are moral citizens. But those who argue this way have missed the point.

Atheists certainly can be moral. Actually, starting with a biblical worldview, this is to be expected. God has put His law in all our hearts (Romans 2:15) so even atheists, who claim that they don’t believe in the Creator God, can adhere to this law and be moral. But the point is that they have no foundation for this morality in their own worldview. They have no basis for saying something is right or wrong, moral or immoral.




The Bible Provides a Foundation for Morality

Atheism cannot account for the existence of morality in their worldview. But what about the biblical view?

According to God’s Word, humans were specially created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). We are not animals, nor are our brains simply chemical reactions. As He has from the very beginning, our Creator holds us accountable for our actions (Genesis 2:17) and expects us to choose and distinguish between right and wrong.

As Creator, only God has the authority to tell us what is right and what is wrong. And this standard is not arbitrary. It is based on the unchanging character of the righteous, holy, and perfect Judge of the universe. For example, all murder is wrong because God has created us in His own image and forbids the taking of a human life (e.g., Genesis 9:6, Exodus 20:13; Romans 13:9).

God, the Creator, has given us the Bible, His revealed Word, which clearly lays out what is morally acceptable and what is not. The Creator provides a firm foundation on which we can base our morality.

What is more, God has placed His law in all of our hearts (Romans 2:15). We know right from wrong because of the conscience that God has given all of humanity. And we are held accountable to Him for our actions and decisions (Romans 2:1–16), based on this knowledge of Him that we have.

It should be obvious to anyone who has lived in this world that no one fully obeys God’s law. We all fall short of God’s perfect standard, as Scripture makes abundantly clear (Romans 3:23). We even fall far short of imperfect human standards! Why is this? Genesis gives us the answer.

The first two people, Adam and Eve, were created morally perfect, but they chose to rebel against their Creator (Genesis 3). No longer were they morally perfect; now they had a sin nature, which they passed on to each of their children (Romans 5:12–21). All of their descendants—every person on earth—is now a slave to sin (John 8:34) and in rebellion against God.

The Bible provides a firm foundation for morality and provides the answer for why all people have a moral conscience and why we cannot live up to this knowledge of morality. But there’s more.




The Answer Is the Gospel

Not only does the Bible explain why there is a universal moral code, why everyone knows it, and why no one can consistently live up to it, but the Bible also provides the solution to our shortcoming. When Adam and Eve sinned, they received the penalty that their rebellion deserved—death (Genesis 2:17). We all sinned and continue to sin in Adam, so we all deserve the penalty of death (Romans 5:12). No matter how hard we try, we can never live up to God’s perfect moral standard (Romans 3:23). We certainly are in a dire position, deserving nothing but condemnation and death.

But because of His great love for us and according to His mercy (Ephesians 2:4), the Creator came to earth as the God-man, a descendant of Adam just like us (1 Corinthians 15:45). But unlike us, He perfectly kept God’s law (Romans 10:4). He then chose to become sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21), taking the sins of the whole world upon Himself when He died on the Cross (1 John 2:2).

He took death—the penalty that we all deserve—for us (Romans 4:25, 5:cool. But He didn’t stay dead. He rose victoriously from the grave, defeating death (2 Timothy 1:10; Hebrews 2:14). He now offers forgiveness and eternal life to all who will repent (Acts 3:19), believe (John 3:18), and trust in Him (Romans 10:9).

Only the Bible provides a consistent foundation for morality that applies to all people everywhere. And only the Bible provides the hope that we need through the person of Jesus Christ, our Creator, Savior, and Lord.


Source; https://answersingenesis.org/morality/do-secularists-have-foundation-morality/


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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by winner01(m): 4:16pm On Jul 16, 2016
So if you are an atheist, there's no need to be in a haste to argue grin. Seems like what all of them in here know how to do. Just read and try to make some sense of it.

Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by Nobody: 4:25pm On Jul 16, 2016
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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by winner01(m): 4:27pm On Jul 16, 2016
Elohim1:
.
Can we find any sect as hardy as the atheists? I bet this dude didn't read the article and was just in a hurry to sound reasonable. It's sad that no amount of rational explanation can wave their hatred for God.

Let me see if I can address the memes above in the simplest way

1. The Bible was not written by people who thought slavery was right. However, the Bible records the history of the Israelites as a people and other early humans, boldly stating all they condoned and the inner workings of their various governments. If the writers of the Bible were half as dubious as atheists, they will carefully omit those parts that show the wrath of God, and paint God in a very acceptable way.

2. Christianity was not imposed on the blacks, slaves could adopt their masters religion. The is no evidence of force being used to propagate christianity. (Catholicism or Islam may have used force), But what we know for sure is that Christianity and other religions brought about the development (Education in particular) that Africa needed.

3. Murdered? Who tries a lion for murdering a buffalo? Komodo dragons feed on their young ones, they are not blamed for murder. If you sell or destroy your phone in anger, you are not blamed for wickedness (and you didn't even create your phone). How much more a creator taking what he created.
My point is this: The "Word murder is meant exclusively for man". When you use such word for God, it only shows that you have reduced God to a man, which is precisely what most atheists do.
As for the destruction of lots wife, you can get your answers HERE.

4. Morality is not a social construct. The article has handled that already. Canada legalized bestiality, does not make bestiality any less sick.


Next time, read first. Don't be in a haste to hand wave it away. That is what open mindedness means.

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by Nobody: 4:28pm On Jul 16, 2016
undecided
Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by oglalasioux(m): 4:53pm On Jul 16, 2016
Well written. But the bible lacks the credibility to be used as a yardstick for measuring morality. Not after it's awash with instructions to commit genocide which is giving the Muslims the morale of making the world very hot for everyone.

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by KingEbukaNaija: 5:57pm On Jul 16, 2016
Seun, Plaetton , Johnydon22 ilovetheline, JackBizzle, Kay17, Weah96 , AgentOfAllah, Ayomikun37 , hahn , sonOfLucifer , frank317 muskeeto , Decker , PastorAIO , ValentineMary , Pyrrho , braithwaite , dragonEmperor , theoneJabulani , cloudgoddess , ifenes , brigance , stephenmorris , thehomer

All these atheists we have on Nairaland , they claim they have moral compass when apparently they have none .
Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by winner01(m): 6:17pm On Jul 16, 2016
KingEbukaNaija:
Seun, Plaetton , Johnydon22 ilovetheline, JackBizzle, Kay17, Weah96 , AgentOfAllah, Ayomikun37 , hahn , sonOfLucifer , frank317 muskeeto , Decker , PastorAIO , ValentineMary , Pyrrho , braithwaite , dragonEmperor , theoneJabulani , cloudgoddess , ifenes , brigance , stephenmorris , thehomer

All these atheists we have on Nairaland , we claim they have moral compass when apparently they have none .
Lol grin
They are probably still using the moral compass they learnt from christianity grin

Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by winner01(m): 6:21pm On Jul 16, 2016
Atheism is absurd. How can one rely on meaninglessness to provide meaning. And expect us to take their meaning serious.

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by winner01(m): 6:35pm On Jul 16, 2016
Today, only few atheistic evolutionists will admit what this dude had the balls to admit.

Why should anyone trust the convictions of an animal.

Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by winner01(m): 6:42pm On Jul 16, 2016
These are sincere questions?.

Atheists cant answer this atheist whose picture is shown below.

His name is Jeffery Dahmer.

He was an atheist, a serial-killer and a cannibal.

When he was caught, he asked the world a very serious question.

Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by adoyi8: 6:47pm On Jul 16, 2016
winner01:

For example, all murder is wrong because God has created us in His own image and forbids the taking of a human life (e.g., Genesis 9:6, Exodus 20:13; Romans 13:9).

you need to read 1st samuel chapter 15 where God ordered the killing of humans including innocent babies. how do you live with yourself after telling yourself all these lies? oh its called cognitive disordance

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by winner01(m): 6:53pm On Jul 16, 2016
I think C.S Lewis is one of the most intelligent humans to ever exist. This quote of his hit me like a missile. Everyone cannot deny that they have the feeling this man was talking about. If one denies it, it means one can be satisfied with nothing. And the human nature proves that this is simply not true.


He said : "Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for these desires exists. A baby feels hunger; well, there is such a thing as food. A dolphin wants to swim; well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire; well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."


What exactly do we want?: To live forever?, To be the wealthiest?, most handsome?, most intelligent?, the worlds first citizen?, the worlds greatest etc.?
The death of Muhammed Ali should teach us all a serious lesson. Vanity upon Vanity, all is vanity. If nothing in this world can satisfy your desire?. The most probable explanation is that you were made for another world.

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by adoyi8: 7:00pm On Jul 16, 2016
The answer to your question is that Humans can do anything to survival regardless of if they are atheists or Christians but Man needs others to survive and that has created society. society needs law to keep men from harming each other. Law is the answer. Now imagine a country like China ruled by an atheist party (the communist party) that strictly follow their law and delivers capital punishment for corruption, then Imagine another country like Nigeria that has a weak law but are very religious, morality is thought based on religious teachings and if the leaders steal our money, the law does nothing and the masses hope that they will go to hell one day. which of the two countries do you think will be more corrupt? The answer to morality is law. When laws are fair and thoroughly enforced, morally persists.

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by KingEbukaNaija: 7:03pm On Jul 16, 2016
winner01:
Lol grin
They are probably still using the moral compass they learnt from christianity grin

grin grin . To navigate through life wink

They cannot do without Christianity cool

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by winner01(m): 7:06pm On Jul 16, 2016
adoyi8:
The answer to your question is that Humans can do anything to survival regardless of if they are atheists or Christians but Man needs others to survive and that has created society. society needs law to keep men from harming each other. Law is the answer. Now imagine a country like China ruled by an atheist party (the communist party) that strictly follow their law and delivers capital punishment for corruption, then Imagine another country like Nigeria that has a weak law but are very religious, morality is thought based on religious teachings and if the leaders steal our money, the law does nothing and the masses hope that they will go to hell one day. which of the two countries do you think will be more corrupt? The answer to morality is law. When laws are fair and thoroughly enforced, morally persists.
Christianity is why you have a voice. If christian leaders reasoned like atheists or created laws like atheist leaders, you'd all be dead.

The first ever officially declared atheist nation in the world was Albania under the rule of communist dictator Enver Hoxha (1908-85).

Article 37 of the Albanian Constitution of 1976 stipulated: ‘The State recognizes no religion, and supports atheistic propaganda in order to implant a scientific materialistic outlook in people’ (Vickers 2001).

Article 2, A, constitution of Iraq stipulates: No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

Article 3, constitution of Afghanistan: In Afghanistan, no law can be contrary to the beliefs and provisions of the sacred religion of Islam.

It is easier to criticize islam as being intolerant and infringing on the rights of individuals that hold contrary beliefs, but is there really any difference between these two laws (Islam and atheism)?

And the same goes for almost every atheist country that have ever existed. Force is not the answer, love is!

Nigeria's laws is not based on religion, (maybe a little tilted to the islamic religion though.)

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by KingEbukaNaija: 7:07pm On Jul 16, 2016
adoyi8:


Christian moral values restrain us from indulging in depravities . The atheists need Christian moral values to determine what's wrong or right for them . But since you want to remain pertinacious about your absurd claims , let's ride .

Do you believe it is right for the society to determine what's right or wrong ?

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by winner01(m): 7:19pm On Jul 16, 2016
adoyi8:
The answer to your question is that Humans can do anything to survival regardless of if they are atheists or Christians but Man needs others to survive and that has created society. society needs law to keep men from harming each other. Law is the answer. Now imagine a country like China ruled by an atheist party (the communist party) that strictly follow their law and delivers capital punishment for corruption, then Imagine another country like Nigeria that has a weak law but are very religious, morality is thought based on religious teachings and if the leaders steal our money, the law does nothing and the masses hope that they will go to hell one day. which of the two countries do you think will be more corrupt? The answer to morality is law. When laws are fair and thoroughly enforced, morally persists.
So if morality is decided by societal laws, what right does your society have to tell the nazi society that their actions were wrong? or the islamic society that they should tolerate other religious beliefs.

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by KingEbukaNaija: 7:31pm On Jul 16, 2016
winner01:
So if morality is decided by societal laws, what right does your society have to tell the nazi society that their actions were wrong? or the islamic society that they should tolerate other religious beliefs.

Exactly this right here would nail him . That means those people who share a common belief about something , see it as morally right and they should not repine over their actions . What is right to them is wrong to you .LOL . Subjective morality is pathetic .

And the pic , 99.9 percent of atheists lose arguments here , egregiously . They keep on switching from one argument to another like a headless chicken - their goal is to look for how to ridicule the superior argument presented by the Christian . And if they find no reason they use the old trick , ask how it proves God's existence .

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by winner01(m): 7:42pm On Jul 16, 2016
KingEbukaNaija:


Exactly this right here would nail him . That means those people who share a common belief about something see it as morally right and they should not repine over their actions . What is right to them is wrong to you .LOL . Subjective morality is pathetic .

And the pic , 99.9 percent of atheists lose arguments here , egregiously . They keep on switching from one argument to another like a headless chicken - their goal is to look for how to ridicule the superior argument presented by the Christian . And if they find no reason they use the old trick , ask how it proves God's existence .

What right does his society have to tell the canadian government that bestiality is wrong.? lol

Atheists dont question atheism and thats where the problem lies.
Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by Edelweiss44: 7:51pm On Jul 16, 2016
adoyi8:
you need to read 1st samuel chapter 15 where God ordered the killing of humans including innocent babies. how do you live with yourself after telling yourself all these lies? oh its called cognitive disordance

When I say it that anybody who has said he is an atheist is CERTAINLY NOT A SMART PERSON, some people will think I'm trying to be derogatory, but I'm not! I'm only stating the obvious fact! If a human being kills another human being, it CANNOT in any way be treated in like manner to God killing a human being. Human beings were not created by human beings. Human beings were created by God. A human being killing a human being is wrong because we humans did not and cannot create life, therefore we have no right to destroy it. God created AND OWNS LIFE, SO IF HE SO DECIDES TO DESTROY WHAT HE CREATED, IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! LIFE BELONGS TO GOD, SO HE CAN CHOOSE TO GIVE OR WITHDRAW IT FROM ANYBODY AS HE PLEASES! If you want to contest the above stated fact, then maybe you should first go and create your own planet and create life in them, then you can come back to query God for killing what He created.

God chose to create man and give life to man as a resource for man to use in serving God on this planet, but when God saw that some people He created had deliberately chosen to misuse the resource of life freely given to them, and instead of using it to serve God the creator, they decided to use the same God-given life to serve and worship idols and inanimate objects as their god, at that time, God Himself decided to destroy those lives because they had abused the purpose for which life was given and turned their back on God their creator. It is not wickedness as you and other atheists have falsely insinuated for somebody to destroy what he solely created if he feels what he has created is not living up to its purpose! That is why you can buy a toothbrush and use it for a couple of months only to throw it away someday after you notice it's no longer effective for brushing your teeth. You threw the brush away because it solely belonged to you! God chose to destroy any life He destroyed because ALL LIFE ALSO BELONG TO HIM ALONE AND HE CAN DO AS HE PLEASES WITH THEM!

The only reason why God has not destroyed you and other atheists who have been insulting Him just like he asked Israel to destroy some idol-worshipping nations in the bible is just because He is trying to be merciful and give you more and more time to repent and be saved. It is only God's love and mercy that has kept you from being destroyed despite all insults you give to God, but the sad part of the matter is that God's patience is very long but not infinite, and one day you may run out of His patience and face Him in judgement. That one day certainly comes when you die and you have to go back to the same God to give an account of what you did with your life on earth.

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by winner01(m): 8:06pm On Jul 16, 2016
Edelweiss44:

God created AND OWNS LIFE, SO IF HE SO DECIDES TO DESTROY WHAT HE CREATED, IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! LIFE BELONGS TO GOD, SO HE CAN CHOOSE TO GIVE OR WITHDRAW IT FROM ANYBODY AS HE PLEASES!
If a man destroys a phone to create another people dont call him wicked or destroyer.
And you cant even create a phone from nothing, you can only create from God-made resources.

God created man from nothing.
So i get confused when atheists try to fit God into their brains. Atheists have reduced God to a man, thats why they blame Him for creation.

But God has been dealing with generations, these ones are just babies.

God will always be God even long after their soul leaves the earth.

God bless you for this.

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by adoyi8: 8:10pm On Jul 16, 2016
winner01:
So if morality is decided by societal laws, what right does your society have to tell the nazi society that their actions were wrong? or the islamic society that they should tolerate other religious beliefs.
globalization has created a global society so the global law (as known as human rights law) is that no human should kill another human because of race or ideology. The answer to your question that the global society is what makes what Nazi did look immoral.

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by winner01(m): 8:18pm On Jul 16, 2016
adoyi8:
globalization has created a global society so the global law (as known as human rights law) is that no human should kill another human because of race or ideology. The answer to your question that the global society is what makes what Nazi did look immoral.
But can they kill other humans because of their crime?. grin

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by adoyi8: 8:20pm On Jul 16, 2016
Edelweiss44:

The only reason why God has not destroyed you and other atheists who have been insulting Him just like he asked Israel to destroy some idol-worshipping nations in the bible is just because He is trying to be merciful and give you more and more time to repent and be saved

He ordered the killing of innocent children for what their ancestors did (or did not do)many hundred years before they were born but cannot kill me that calls him an egoistic psycophant everyday because he is merciful? cognitive disordance at work.

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by adoyi8: 8:23pm On Jul 16, 2016
winner01:
But can they kill other humans because of their crime?. grin

law is very important and has to be enforced
Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by hopefulLandlord: 8:30pm On Jul 16, 2016
Umm... I'd say only atheists can have meaningful moral opinions. "Because god said it is a sin" is not a meaningful opinion. Religion takes the meaning out of morality. When religious people are thoughtfully moral, it is usually in spite of their religious belief, not because of it.
Arguing that something is wrong because it is a "sin," as David Foster Wallace once wrote in a different context, is like arguing that murder is wrong because it is against the law. It's a circular, deeply superficial and content-free argument. You merely substitute one word for another ("sin" for "wrong"wink.
To the extent that the religious go beyond "god said it is a sin" they are actually appealing to fundamentally atheist moral arguments. For example, "because it causes pain to others" is actually an atheist argument, not a religious one. When religious people use it in some form ("god said it is a sin, because it causes pain"wink they are bolstering the weakness in the divine notion of sin. The god clause in the above example is actually superfluous. "Because it causes pain" has the same content.
The only way religious people can make their arguments deeper without using atheist reasoning is to appeal to the afterlife and some sort of calculus of beyond life reward and punishment. In my opinion this is actually a lousy way to deepen the argument (even ignoring the fact that there is no reason to believe it to be true) because it places notions of wrong and morality into an extrinsic motivation framework. You should not kill or rape because even if you get away, you'll be punished with eternal hellfire? Really? That's the best you can come up with? You should be kind to the unfortunate because you'll get booze and women in heaven? Really? That's "meaningful" morality? It's the reverse. It empties behavior of even its natural moral meaning. Even without reading deep ethics tomes, a small child will be kind to a crying friend. Putting religion in that child's head is equivalent to taking that natural unreasoning empathy out.
How do you actually make the argument deeper (for instance by asking, "why is causing pain wrong?"wink? You have to go where no truly religious people will go. To subjects like evolution.
For instance, we can understand "pain" through evolutionary notions of empathy, cooperation and reciprocal trust and get to a point in the analysis where we don't even need the word "wrong." Only within a Darwinian framework can we even talk about what the existence of rape among dolphins implies for the corresponding human behavior, because we understand at some level that our model has to cover both cases (since there is no artificial distinction elevating man above animals for atheists).
This allows atheists to analyze and apply the "don't cause pain" in much deeper ways than religious people. For example the religious usually make humans out to be special and don't usually care much for animal pain. In fact, one religious guy I know argued, "but God put the animals on the earth for us to eat!" What do you get as a result? Factory farming. A military-industrial complex of horrendous pain-creation justified by some notion of humans having dominion over animals by divine sanction. Yes, I assign a significant proportion of the blame for things like factory farming to religious notions of morality.
The religious are also less likely to understand and apply practical notions of deterrent pain and more likely to cause more pain than necessary. The religious might believe in some notion of divine symbolism and symmetry (an eye for an eye, or cutting off the hand of a thief, or stoning an adulterer or pretending that killing in war and capital punishment are somehow different from murder) in their pain calculus.

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by adoyi8: 8:32pm On Jul 16, 2016
KingEbukaNaija:


Christian moral values restrain us from indulging in depravities . The atheists need Christian moral values to determine what's wrong or right for them . But since you want to remain pertinacious about your absurd claims , let's ride .

Do you believe it is right for the society to determine what's right or wrong ?
according to christianity, premarital sex is bad and will lead you to hell but i can tell you that almost 90% of unmarried christians above 25 years are not virgins and they remorselessly have sex every week of the month especially pastors children this is because the global society does not see it as immoral. now imagine that a law was passed and fully enforced to reduce premarital sex. what do you think will be the result?

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Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by adoyi8: 8:33pm On Jul 16, 2016
winner01:
Christianity is why you have a voice. If christian leaders reasoned like atheists or created laws like atheist leaders, you'd all be dead.

The last time i checked China (with an overwhelming population) and Japan are doing pretty well
Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by cloudgoddess(f): 8:38pm On Jul 16, 2016
Edelweiss44:


When I say it that anybody who has said he is an atheist is CERTAINLY NOT A SMART PERSON, some people will think I'm trying to be derogatory, but I'm not! I'm only stating the obvious fact! If a human being kills another human being, it CANNOT in any way be treated in like manner to God killing a human being. Human beings were not created by human beings. Human beings were created by God. A human being killing a human being is wrong because we humans did not and cannot create life, therefore we have no right to destroy it. God created AND OWNS LIFE, SO IF HE SO DECIDES TO DESTROY WHAT HE CREATED, IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! LIFE BELONGS TO GOD, SO HE CAN CHOOSE TO GIVE OR WITHDRAW IT FROM ANYBODY AS HE PLEASES! If you want to contest the above stated fact, then maybe you should first go and create your own planet and create life in them, then you can come back to query God for killing what He created.

God chose to create man and give life to man as a resource for man to use in serving God on this planet, but when God saw that some people He created had deliberately chosen to misuse the resource of life freely given to them, and instead of using it to serve God the creator, they decided to use the same God-given life to serve and worship idols and inanimate objects as their god, at that time, God Himself decided to destroy those lives because they had abused the purpose for which life was given and turned their back on God their creator. It is not wickedness as you and other atheists have falsely insinuated for somebody to destroy what he solely created if he feels what he has created is not living up to its purpose! That is why you can buy a toothbrush and use it for a couple of months only to throw it away someday after you notice it's no longer effective for brushing your teeth. You threw the brush away because it solely belonged to you! God chose to destroy any life He destroyed because ALL LIFE ALSO BELONG TO HIM ALONE AND HE CAN DO AS HE PLEASES WITH THEM!

The only reason why God has not destroyed you and other atheists who have been insulting Him just like he asked Israel to destroy some idol-worshipping nations in the bible is just because He is trying to be merciful and give you more and more time to repent and be saved. It is only God's love and mercy that has kept you from being destroyed despite all insults you give to God, but the sad part of the matter is that God's patience is very long but not infinite, and one day you may run out of His patience and face Him in judgement. That one day certainly comes when you die and you have to go back to the same God to give an account of what you did with your life on earth.
Lol. Get over yourself.
Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by Edelweiss44: 8:39pm On Jul 16, 2016
adoyi8:

He ordered the killing of innocent children for what their ancestors did (or did not do)many hundred years before they were born but cannot kill me that calls him an egoistic psycophant everyday because he is merciful? cognitive disordance at work.

Point of correction sir, I never implied that "God CANNOT kill you"........in fact, God CAN kill you, and if you continue on this path of foolhardy opposition to your creator without repenting, I can assure you that HE MAY KILL YOU SOONER THAN YOU THINK. He has only not done so now just because it doesn't make Him happy to see a soul He created die and go to hell. God sent Jesus Christ to die for our sins so that the price for salvation can be paid. Love is what made Jesus suffer and allow Himself to be crucified for my sin and your sin. God does not take lightly the price that Jesus paid for humanity, and that is why He is seemingly very slow to judgement these days, just so that the sinner can be given a long time to perhaps repent and escape eternal damnation before he dies in his sin and goes to hell. It is only love that has made God not kill you yet, and you will be grateful to Him for giving you such privilege any day you come to realise yourself and see why you need God!
Re: Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality by KingEbukaNaija: 8:43pm On Jul 16, 2016
adoyi8:
according to christianity, premarital sex is bad and will lead you to hell but i can tell you that almost 90% of unmarried christians above 25 years are not virgins and they remorselessly have sex every week of the month especially pastors children this is because the global society does not see it as immoral. now imagine that a law was passed and fully enforced to reduce premarital sex. what do you think will be the result?

Please stop the blatant circumlocution and answer my question . Do you think societal laws should decide what's right or wrong ? Yes or No

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