AbuTwins:
As Muslims, we believe your Bible in this present state contains words probably of God, words probably of Prophets and words probably of wise/foolish men. We believe your Bible doesnt contain the Gospel of Jesus, The Gospel he preached to the disciples and the people of Israel. All what we find in the new testament are just hearsay and letters as can be found in the beginning of most of the New testament chapters.
New International Version
Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught. LUKE 1 VS 1-4

SO WE MUSLIMS BELIEVE IN THE GOSPEL GIVEN TO JESUS, ABRAHAM, MOSES, DAVID, ETC BUT REJECT THE BIBLE!!!

crusadistic:

Lol...you wish not "abusing priviledges" is what makes them better than Hagar...let me not say more .And how did she abuse her 'priviledges'.All accounts in your bible shows Sarah was the one who went green with envy and jealousy.

Ishmael wasn't recognised as his son yet your confused bible said he buried Abraham...and his 'vagabond' sons control his tomb up till today

truthmans2012:


You have nothing to defend the OP.

I'm sure you will remember this thread when you find yourself in hell for disobeying God, if you do not repent.

babajeje123:

See big fat lies from the bottom of hell . I wish there was an international lying competition you could represent Nigeria. Was Ishmael the only person who buried Abraham? No. Gen 25:9 gives the answer.

babajeje123:

Ishmaelites must be so jobless to be watching the tomb of a man who died before their fore fathers were born.

babajeje123:

You guys can lie on Shaatan. Where did the bible say Sarah became jealous of her maid? Gen 16:4 says Hagar, a bond woman, began to despise her mistress when she knew she was pregnant.

babajeje123:

you see an abuse of privilege? It is common to all the children Hagar. Give them a metre, they will go kilometres.

aminusanti:


if jesus(pbh) is d one you are reffering to as God, u are DOOMED i swear.
Tell us what we are doing thats disobeying God?? and how do we obey him??

crusadistic:

[s]Just say you have language comprehension problem and shut up.Where did I say Ishmael was the only son who buried his father I meant your confused bible couldn't discriminate in this regard by calling Isaac his "only son". Gen 25:9 -  "His sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah near Mamre, in the field of Ephron son of Zohar the Hittite".you've just incriminated yourself.


Its like you just want to type something no matter how foolish it is.Don't think everyone is like you and your family lineage who have no regard for their fathers...It simple shows the sort of respect this " vagabond" sons still have for their father,in spite,as you see it being "abandoned" by him.


Mr man,go and read your bible:So she turned to Abraham and demanded, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son. He is not going to share the inheritance with my son, Isaac. I won't have it!"(Gen 21:10).If this isnt going green with envy and jealousy,then whats it?


Guy! Am not an Arab and you're never a jew.They've have achieved a million times more than whatever tribe you're from.The way you xtians look down on her as a mere bondswoman and maidservant like that makes her/them less human in the sight of God means your god sees a king more special than you.

Islam never denies she was once a bondswoman,and never says Ishmael was more superior than Isaac or Hagar superior to Sarah or the Arabs being a special choosen race...it views all equally.Now,go explain that to your sycophant god! Am off!

truthman2012:


Read the OP well well !!!

The Kaaba (East) you venerate and face to pray is the East God said is abomination.

This debunks islamists claim that Abraham built Kaaba in the East, which God said is abomination to Him. Abraham would not do anything abominable to God.

God said His people should not worship Him the way idolaters do to their idols but you muslims worship allah the same way meccan pagans worship their idols.

That means the god (allah) you worship the same way as idolaters do is not Yahweh the true God.

Jesus is not an ordinary human being. He is the only one who has been living in heaven for more than 2000 years without dying ( according to islam).

He is the only one called Messiah in your quran.

He is the only one called the word of allah in your quran.

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “When any human being is born. Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead.”
Sahih Bukhari 4:54:506. Satan touches every human being except Jesus should inform you that Jesus is not among ordinary human beings.

truthmans2012:
Ezekiel 8:15-17
15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.

16 And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

That Bible passage debunks the claim by muslims that Abraham built Kaaba, facing it (East) to pray. Abraham would not commit what God called abomination. Please note that the passage was not written in contention with Muhammad's islam as it had not come at that time. It was what the pre-islam pagans were doing, which is what muslims are doing today. No sane person would argue that it is the same God who called it abomination would still approve it in islam.

The muslims claim the pre-islamic pagans worshiped God but only associated partners with him and so, when Muhammad came, he removed the partners and established the worship of only one God but continued worshiping the one God the same way pagans were doing it. The truth is: God cannot be worshipped as idolaters do neither can idols be worshipped as God's people do. They are not compatible.

Deuteronomy 12:2-4
2 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree:

3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.

When Muhammad came, he removed other idols (possibly those belonging to other tribes) but left the Black Stone, the altars and their pillars, which had been defied by idol worship and he continued making use of them.

Deuteronomy 12:30
And after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same."
God warned the Israelites not to worship Him the same way pagans worship their gods. But today, muslims worship Allah the same way pagans worship their gods.

Deuteonomy 12:31 (NIV)
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
That was a strict warning to God's people, not to worship God the way pagans do.

Now, let us see how muslims compromised worshiping allah the same ways pagans in the pre-islamic period did:

Quran 2:158 Pickthal] Lo! (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the indications of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who is on pilgrimage to the House (of Allah) or visiteth it, to go around them (as the pagan custom is).And he who doeth good of his own accord, (for him) lo! Allah is Responsive, Aware.


Veneration of the Black-stone

The pagan gods of pre-Islamic Arabia were worshiped in the form of rectangular stones or rocks. For example, the pagan deity 'Al-Lat', mentioned in Qur'an 53:19, and believed by pre-Islamic pagans to be one of the daughters of Allah, was once venerated as a cubic rock at Ta'if in Saudi Arabia. An edifice was built over the rock to mark it apart as a house of worship.
Al-lat stood in al-Ta'if, and was more recent than Manah. She was a cubic rock beside which a certain Jew used to prepare his barley porridge (sawiq). Her custody was in the hands of the banu-'Attab ibn-Malik of the Thayif, who had built an edifice over her. [...]She is the idol which God mentioned when He said, "Have you seen Al-lat and al-'Uzza (Surah 53:19)?
Kitab Al-Asnam (The Book of Idols), p 14


Praying 5 Times Towards Mecca

Pagans prior to Islam would pray five times per day towards Mecca.[4] Muhammad retained for Islam, this pre-Islamic practice, sanctioning it with a story of a night trip to heaven on a mythical beast called al-Buraq. In heaven, the Hadith tells us that Allah demanded 50 prayers per day per Muslim. Upon advice from Moses, Muhammed bargains with Allah and successfully reduces it to five prayers per day.

Zoroastrians are also expected to recite their (kusti) prayers at least five times a day having first cleansed themselves by washing (ablution). So even today, this is not a practice unique to Islam. But, contrary to the Muslims, they pray in the direction of the Sun (at each time of the day) and/or of the Holy Fire (if they are in a Fire Temple).


Fasting on the 10th of Muharram

Muhammad's pagan tribe, the Quraish, fasted on the 10th of Muharram. Though optional, Muhammad retained this pagan practice too.
Narrated 'Aisha: 'Ashura' (i.e. the tenth of Muharram) was a day on which the tribe of Quraish used to fast in the pre-lslamic period of ignorance. The Prophet also used to fast on this day. So when he migrated to Medina, he fasted on it and ordered (the Muslims) to fast on it. When the fasting of Ramadan was enjoined, it became optional for the people to fast or not to fast on the day of Ashura.
Sahih Bukhari 5:58:172


Tawaf between Safa and Marwa

Doing Tawaf between Safa and Marwa is an Islamic ritual associated with the pilgrimage to Mecca. Safa and Marwa are two mounts, located at Mecca. This ritual entails Muslims walking frantically between the two mounts, seven times. This was originally a pagan pre-Islamic practice. Muhammad retained it for Islam, sanctioning it with yet another Qur'anic revelation.[7]
Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158)
Sahih Bukhari 2:26:710

Requirement of Ihram

Ihram is a state a Muslim enters into for his pilgrimage to Mecca. It involves a series of procedures like ritual washing, wearing 'Ihram garments', etc. Ihram was originally a pagan requirement for worshipping idols during pre-Islamic times. Muhammad retained this practice for Islam. Muslims assume Ihram to perform the Hajj or Umrah.
Narrated 'Urwa: I asked 'Aisha : ...But in fact, this divine inspiration was revealed concerning the Ansar who used to assume “Ihram” for worshipping an idol called “Manat” which they used to worship at a place called Al-Mushallal before they embraced Islam, and whoever assumed Ihram (for the idol), would consider it not right to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa.
Sahih Bukhari 2:26:706


Circumambulation 7 Times

In the Islamic ritual of Tawaf, Muslims go around the Kaaba 7 times. In the Hindu marriage rite of Satphere, the married couple goes around a fire also 7 times. In both of these rituals, religious phrases are repeated during the circumambulation.

Circumambulation is to go in circles around a particular object. In Islam, worshippers and pilgrims do this around the Ka'aba at Mecca. Pre-Islamic pagans used do it to please the moon god Hubal, the 360 deities and Allah (who was merely one among the many deities worshipped there). Muhammad himself used to do it, even before the 360 idols inside the Ka'aba were removed.

Judaism and Christianity (the religions of those who are considered People of the Book) do not practice ritual circumambulation to please God. Two other faiths which do are Hinduism and Buddhism, religions older than Islam and accused by Islam of “paganism” and practicing idolatry.

aminusanti:


says who?


* debunk what? proof?
* proof on God saying is abomination to face east



if u cant provide any straight foward statement from the above then read this

[5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord* and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.



how is it the same? in what sense?


he is nothing but a warner to the lost sheep of isreal and GOD decided to send him back again to prove to his worshippers that he never claim to be GOD or begotten son as u people proclaim.so, to God nothing is impossible, i don't have to prove that, GOD's miracle are there since b4 jesus.



u got that wrong bros
messieh in quran it simply means ome of the mightest messenger of GOD

read this carefully

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion or utter anything concerning Allah but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, His Word that He sent to Mary, and a Spirit from Him [that He sent]. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and do not say “Three.” Desist, it is better for you! Allah is one God. Far exalted is He above having offspring. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth. Allah is sufficient a disposer of affairs. (4.171)

They have indeed disbelieved those who say: “Allah is the Messiah son of Mary.” Say [O Muhammad!]: “Who then can do anything against Allah if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, his mother, and everyone on earth?” Allah’s is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. Allah is able to do all things. (5.17)

The Messiah son of Mary was no other than a messenger before whom [similar] messengers passed away, and his mother was a saintly woman. They used to eat food [like other human beings]. See how We make the revelations clear to them, and see how they are deluded! (5.75)

Surely they disbelieve those who say: “Allah is the Messiah son of Mary.” The Messiah himself said: “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever joins other gods with Allah, for him Allah has forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. The evildoers shall have no helpers.” (5.72)


lying as usual. u need to improve



so, that makes him God?? how about other miracles that happend to the other prophets which were not bestowed on jesus??
and u are quoting from Satan Scripture as u claim. honstly, i can see why God created hell fire, u can cant even appy common sense to differiate btw good n bad and delibrately lying to urself.

Farmerforlife:


[b]The only problem in your theory is that the orientation of Makkah with regards to Jerusalem is SOUTH, not East. [/b]Secondly, I think Muslims in 3/4 of the world, like the US, Europe, Asia, Australia and much of Africa are safe, because to them, Makkah is either South, North or West, or some combination thereof. Lol.

Pls get educated in geography before making such statements. It is really sad to see you do this to yourself.

truthman2012:


Trash !!! You are not making any sense at all.

You are asking many questions already answered in the OP. I doubt if you read it at all.

In fact the OP is not refutable. The facts are there, which you pretend you didn't see. Fortunately, those who could understand have gotten the messages.

If you continue with allah (an arabian idol) and die worshiping him, no doubt you will end in hell. Look at what islamic scholars say about hell for all muslims:

These are the interpretations of islamic scholars about muslims' fate at afterlife:

Al-Jalalayn’s Tafsir on Surah 19:71 (“Not one of you but will pass through it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished”), gives the following clarification:
“Not one” means that there will be none. “Of you” means all people. “But will pass through” means the entry into hell. “A decree which must be accomplished” means it is a certainty and a judgment from which Allah will not relent. (Translated from Arabic) Source: www.al-islam.com.

Tafsir by Ibn Kathir on Surah 19:71:
Surah 19:71: “Not one of you but will pass through it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished.”
Imam Ahmad narrated that Sulaiman Ibn Harb narrated that Khalid Ibn Sulaiman narrated that Kathir Ibn Ziad Al- Barsani narrated that Abu Sumaya said, "We differed about the meaning of ‘Passing through it’ (wari-duha). For some of us said that no believer will enter hell and others said all (people) shall enter it and then Allah will save those who have done righteousness. Then I met Jabir Ibn Abdallah and I informed him that we differed about the meaning of, ‘Pass through it,’ and he replied that, “Everyone shall enter it.” (Tafsir by Ibn Kathir on Surah 19:71, Translated from Arabic)

Another Tafsir by Ibn Kathir on Surah 19:71:
Narrated by Abdel Razak, narrated by Ibn Ayena narrated by Amru who told us that he heard Ibn Abbas feud with Nafi Ibn Al-Azraq regarding the meaning of, ‘Entering (Al-wurood).’ He said it meant ‘Entering (Hell),’ but Nafi disagreed. Thus Ibn Abbas read (Surah 21:98) “‘Verily ye, and the gods that ye worship besides Allah, are but fuel for Hell! To it will ye surely will enter (Wardan),’ and asked did they enter or not? He also read (Surah 11:98) ‘He will go before his people on the Day of Judgment, and lead them (Awrada-hum) into the fire: but woeful indeed will be the place (Wird) to which they are led (Al-mawrud)!’ Did they enter or not? As for you and I, we will enter it but let us see if we will exit from it and I don’t see Allah taking you out of it because you lie (regarding its meaning).” Nafi then laughed.

Narrated by Ibn Jarir, narrated by Atta who stated that Abu Rashid Al-Harury, who is called Nafi Ibn Al-Azraq, said, "They (the believers) will not hear hell’s roar." So Ibn Abbas responded, "Woe to you! Are you insane? What of Allah’s verse (Surah 11:98) ‘He will go before his people on the Day of Judgment, and lead them (Awrada-hum) into the fire,’ and also the verse (Surah 19:86) ‘And We shall drive the sinners to hell being lead (Wirdan)’? And also the verse (Surah 19:71) ‘Not one of you but will pass (Waridu-ha) through it’? By Allah, the supplication of those who lived previously used to be, ‘O Allah take me out of hell fire peacefully and allow me to enter paradise victorious.’" (Tafsir by Ibn Kathir on Surah 19:71, Translated from Arabic) Source: Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Saudi Arabia.


In summary, every muslims will go into hell as soon as he/she dies. What a pity. Make sure you don't die a Muslim. Give your life to Jesus.

aminusanti:


are u expecting me to read all dat trashy copy n paste ?? And thats what exactly am saying u r nothing but blind follower without reading ur foolish quotation i already know where u copy it, use that same google to search for the answer, u hardly find a muslim asking those silly question because we seek proper knowledge from knowledgeable pple before doing what u are doing . U don't just quote verse without any further reading of understand and post it here expecting reply when u already programmed urself whatever u copy n paste is true, that's why i still consider replying u as a waste of MB and time.
"Give your life to jesus" As GOD??

Luke 22:42
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."
God asking God for rescue...
Time shall tell
Just carry on with you man worship but my advise for u is to read carefully all the time without apply any sentiment.

aminusanti:


are u expecting me to read all dat trashy copy n paste ?? And thats what exactly am saying u r nothing but blind follower without reading ur foolish quotation i already know where u copy it, use that same google to search for the answer, u hardly find a muslim asking those silly question because we seek proper knowledge from knowledgeable pple before doing what u are doing . U don't just quote verse without any further reading of understand and post it here expecting reply when u already programmed urself whatever u copy n paste is true, that's why i still consider replying u as a waste of MB and time.
"Give your life to jesus" As GOD??

Luke 22:42
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."
God asking God for rescue...
Time shall tell
Just carry on with you man worship but my advise for u is to read carefully all the time without apply any sentiment.

truthman2012:


Makkah is in the SOUTH East of Jerusalem. In Nigeria, the Igbos in the South East are referred to as people in the East.

Then, what about islamic worship that is compatible to idol worship? Nowhere else in the world we see idolaters worshiping their idols as God's people do. How is Islamic worship the same as idol worship? God particularly stated, as in the OP, that they should not worship Him the same way as idolaters do, which means God's worship is not compatible with idol worship. Again, God said all the altars and pillars used by idolaters should be destroyed. But in the case of Muhammad, he destroyed some and retained some, which gives the suspicion that he only destroyed other tribes' idols and retained his father's own.

To convince readers that Abraham laid the foundation of islamic worship that is the same as idol worship, state why no other members of Abraham's family participated in the islamic retuals in Mecca, also taking into cognisance that none of the Bible prophets recognized islamic worship in Mecca and were never there.

Look at the map below, Mecca is in the South East of Jerusalem

Farmerforlife:


Look at your own map and see how much of that is south and how much is east. Superimpose the direction where the sun rises and see how wrong your theory is. It takes a lot of imagination to see Makkah as being in the direction where the sun rises in relation to Jerusalem. The Ibos are not a single city, and they are not going to be described as living where the sun rises by Camerounians. Stop trying to fix the nonsense.

If you want to quote Judaic scripture in relations to Islam and Christianity you will lose, badly. Dont let me bring up their interpretations here for you, or their writings on Jesus. At least they acknowledge that Muslims are monotheists, unlike Christians who they see as idolators. And you cant understand their scriptures better than them.

truthman2012:


This is complete trash !!!

Tell me a single city among the Igbo that is not in the East. We are talking about the location of Mecca, which is the East of Jerusalem. I didn't draw the map, it was drawn by an expert to show the location of Mecca.

When it suits you, you islamists quote the same Judaic Scripture to authenticate Muhammad or islam, wrongly though.

My friend, you keep skipping the area of following the ways of pagans in worshiping allahh, why? You haven't convinced anybody why islam is compatible with idolatry and how idolatry is compatible with islam, when God said He should not be worshiped as idolaters do. You also didn't talk about why islam is only about Ishmael and Hagai, what about other members of Abraham's family? Again, no prophets in the Bible recognized and visited Kaaba, then, how do you prove it was Abraham their father who built it?

Waiting anxiously for you !!!

AmuDimpka:



You have taken him to cleaners


He won't answer

truthman2012:


This is complete trash !!!

Tell me a single city among the Igbo that is not in the East. We are talking about the location of Mecca, which is the East of Jerusalem. I didn't draw the map, it was drawn by an expert to show the location of Mecca.

When it suits you, you islamists quote the same Judaic Scripture to authenticate Muhammad or islam, wrongly though.

My friend, you keep skipping the area of following the ways of pagans in worshiping allahh, why? You haven't convinced anybody why islam is compatible with idolatry and how idolatry is compatible with islam, when God said He should not be worshiped as idolaters do. You also didn't talk about why islam is only about Ishmael and Hagai, what about other members of Abraham's family? Again, no prophets in the Bible recognized and visited Kaaba, then, how do you prove it was Abraham their father who built it?

Waiting anxiously for you !!!

AmuDimpka:

You have taken him to cleaners
He won't answer

Farmerforlife:


Please bros, calm yourself down, you dont have to be so excitable. The Igbos are in the east from whose perspective? Certainly not the Camerounians or the South Africans or the Chadians, or even those staying in Borno, Yobe, Benue or Cross River or Rivers States. Cardinal direction is all a matter of perspectives. The verse you quoted speaks from the perspective of a man standing in Jerusalem and facing East.

Your expert drawn map is what I am citing. It doesnt show Makkah to be East of Jerusalem. Let me help you out, take a ruler, and draw a line horizontally across the map passing through Jerusalem, the rightwards part of the line denotes the cities east of Jerusalem. Now take the ruler and draw a vertical line passing through Jerusalem, the areas at the lower part of the line denote cities south of Jerusalem. Now look at where Makkah lies, you will see (if your sight is free from bias of course) that Makkah is much closer to the lower line, making it South south east of Jerusalem. Or better still, superimpose the compass points you kindly provided on the map, and follow the eastward line, where a man standing in Jerusalem would be facing. There is no way that anybody standing in Jerusalem and facing east, could be facing Makkah. It is difficult to believe that God can make such a heinous mistake in Geography if He meant Makkah.org And you have still not told me the fate of the Muslim worshippers in Europe, the US and Asia. Are they ok, since they face south, west or north?

I was not referring to Judaic scriptures concerning Islam. I was referring to Judaic scripture and rulings concerning Jesus and Christianity. Since the prophet Isa (ﷺ) is a respected messenger of God with us, I am reluctant to post these views here. You may google search for it yourself, and discover just what the original owners of Judaic scripture have to say about you and your god.

I have already answered you concerning the worship practices and their origins in Abraham's religion in another thread. If you did not understand it there, you will not understand it here.



It is really worrisome that so many Christians cannot ascertain simple direction on a geographical map. I would rather believe that you understand that Makkah is located south of Jerusalem, but you choose to support your fellow brother wrongly, than to believe that you do not know how to read the map that your brother provided.

truthman2012:


Forget about muslims in Europe, US and Asia, it may not be East to them but as a the time of the Biblical statement, those who were facing the East turned their back to God's Temple and they were the idolaters in Mecca, the worship of which muslims also adopt for worshiping allaah.

You still failed to tell why islam is about Ishmael and Hagai alone. Where were Isaac, Jacob and Sarah? Mind you, quran confirms that Isaac and Jacob had the covenant of prophethood (Quran 29:27), then, why were they excluded from islamic rituals in Mecca if truly Abraham established it?

Again, islamists claim Adam first laid down the foundation of Kaaba without any proof that Adam was created in Mecca or ever lived there. Do you have any proof?

Another point is: muslims say Adam started the building of Kaaba but when it came to the turn of Abraham, allaah threw a stone (the Back Stone) to him as the location where Kaaba should be built. Why would allaah throw any stone to locate the Kaaba site when the foundation was already there?

What you explained about islamic rituals in Mecca that Abraham and Ishmael were the people who did them first before idolaters hijacked them is not believable. You can not prove that idolaters could use the same mode of worshiping God to worship their idols. It is like saying idolaters hijacked the Church and started shouting Jesus the way Christian do. It is not possible. It was Muhammad who introduced the ways his fathers worshipped their idols and turned it to islam. Yahweh the true God expressly forbade people to worship Him like idols. If allaah accepts him being worshiped like idols, it implies that Yahweh and allaah are not the same.

crusadistic:

Lol...you wish not "abusing priviledges" is what makes them better than Hagar...let me not say more .And how did she abuse her 'priviledges'.All accounts in your bible shows Sarah was the one who went green with envy and jealousy.

Ishmael wasn't recognised as his son yet your confused bible said he buried Abraham...and his 'vagabond' sons control his tomb up till today

Farmerforlife:


Ok, so you agree that Makkah is not east of Jerusalem now, thank God for His tender Mercies. Now are you trying to insinuate that everyone in Makkah faces east when praying? Look at a picture of people praying in Makkah. Those on the East side face West, those on the North side face south, those on the West side face east, and those on the south side face north. Is it only those on the west side who face east that are idolators? What of those on the south side especially who face north, and therefore Jerusalem by projection? Incidentally, those who face east are actually backing Sudan, not Jerusalem, and it is those who face south that are actually backing Jerusalem. How do you justify that?

Awaiting your knowledgeable response eagerly.

By the way excuse the private inquiry, but are you a full time evangelical pastor? I cant imagine any other line of work that you could possibly do apart from that, taking your method of reasoning into consideration.

truthman2012


You still failed to tell why islam is about Ishmael and Hagai alone. Where were Isaac, Jacob and Sarah? Mind you, quran confirms that Isaac and Jacob had the covenant of prophethood (Quran 29:27), then, why were they excluded from islamic rituals in Mecca if truly Abraham established it?

Again, islamists claim Adam first laid down the foundation of Kaaba without any proof that Adam was created in Mecca or ever lived there. Do you have any proof?

Another point is: muslims say Adam started the building of Kaaba but when it came to the turn of Abraham, allaah threw a stone (the Back Stone) to him as the location where Kaaba should be built. Why would allaah throw any stone to locate the Kaaba site when the foundation was already there?

What you explained about islamic rituals in Mecca that Abraham and Ishmael were the people who did them first before idolaters hijacked them is not believable. You can not prove that idolaters could use the same mode of worshiping God to worship their idols. It is like saying idolaters hijacked the Church and started shouting Jesus the way Christian do. It is not possible. It was Muhammad who introduced the ways his fathers worshipped their idols and turned it to islam. Yahweh the true God expressly forbade people to worship Him like idols. If allaah accepts him being worshiped like idols, it implies that Yahweh and allaah are not the same

truthman2012:


.

My good friend, I won't rest until you provide answers to the above. Thank you.

Farmerforlife:


So I take it you have conceded that you are wrong in the matter of East and West... okay.

As for your later assertions, if I remember correctly, I did answer them adequately enough for any objective mind on an earlier thread that you yourself opened, seeking knowledge. I really do not feel that teaching you the same old lesson on the exact same issue is in any way productive, do you? You go back like a nice chap, look for your own old thread on which I replied these same questions, and probably a half dozen others on the same tired old topic, probably answered by other Muslim brothers and sisters who may likely have more patience for your slow learning process than I do, and reread them very well if you feel that you can acquire some knowledge thereby. I am not the type to engage in unproductive argument.

truthman2012:


You failed woefully on the issue of Mecca being not East to Jerusalem. I deliberately provided the two maps for the readers to debunk your claim.

On other issues, you are doing your soul a great damage for deceiving yourself by dodging to answer those questions simply because it is irrefutable. There is nowhere you answered the questions before now. I know that if you truly have answered them you will be more than willing to answer them again and again. You are talking as if you are discussing with me alone, there are people following this thread who do not have the opportunity of seeing or reading your alleged answers. For their sake, please explain to them.

truthman2012:

Forget about muslims in Europe, US and Asia, it may not be East to them but as a the time of the Biblical statement, those who were facing the East turned their back to God's Temple and they were the idolaters in Mecca, the worship of which muslims also adopt for worshiping allaah.

Farmerforlife:

Ok, so you agree that Makkah is not east of Jerusalem now, thank God for His tender Mercies. Now are you trying to insinuate that everyone in Makkah faces east when praying? Look at a picture of people praying in Makkah. Those on the East side face West, those on the North side face south, those on the West side face east, and those on the south side face north. Is it only those on the west side who face east that are idolators? What of those on the south side especially who face north, and therefore Jerusalem by projection? Incidentally, those who face east are actually backing Sudan, not Jerusalem, and it is those who face south that are actually backing Jerusalem. How do you justify that?

Awaiting your knowledgeable response eagerly.
.

truthman2012:
What you explained about islamic rituals in Mecca that Abraham and Ishmael were the people who did them first before idolaters hijacked them is not believable. You can not prove that idolaters could use the same mode of worshiping God to worship their idols.

truthman2012:

On other issues, you are doing your soul a great damage for deceiving yourself by dodging to answer those questions simply because they are irrefutable.
There is nowhere you answered the questions before now. I know that if you truly have answered them you will be more than willing to repeat them again and again.

Farmerforlife:


You are childish. After begging me to sideline the questions on east and west.
Here is your statement...


You then went off to ask questions totally unrelated to the topic of east and west, effectively trying hard to change the goalpost. I still want you to answer this...



You ignored all my questions regarding the topic of the thread and introduced questions on another issue entirely that has nothing to do with east or west. Are you trying to derail your own thread? Then you say that I have failed woefully, even though you failed to provide simple answers to my simple questions pertaining the original thread. Come on, dont be a sore loser, answer the questions, to wit...

- Repost your maps here and show us how someone in Jerusalem facing east with his back to the alleged temple, will face Makkah, by showing us with drawn lines. As far as I can see, the only city on your map that fits the description is Amman.

- Show us (with the use of appropriate lines) how it is that all worshippers in Makkah face east when praying and that by doing so, they are backing Jerusalem holding your temple.

- Tell us the status of Muslims who are in the US, Europe, and Asia, and even within Makkah itself, who face West, North or South. Are they facing correctly by your standards, since they are not backing your temple?

- If you want to insist on using the Igbo territory as an example of how to use the word east (even though such usage does not fit the description of 'facing east and backing the temple' in the verse you cited), then we understand that Igbo territory is considered 'the eastern part of NIGERIA' , not just the East in general, since the Camerounians would have to face west if they want to face Enugu. Now, Makkah is in the eastern part of what land please (we will ignore that the verse specified FACING east, and assume that it speaks of the eastern part of a country, like Igbo land). So what country or territory is Makkah in the Eastern part of, please?

Simple questions requesting simple answers.

And for answers to your unrelated questions, search your own history please. I replied to your question on the worship practices of Muslims. If I have not explained them previously, then what aree you referring to here...



How is it that you remember what I explained in another thread, when you claim that I did not answer your questions? Were you lying here?



You are a bundle of contradictions my man. Cool down on the caffeine.

truthman2012:

[s]
You are definitely hiding something, hence you kept dodging. Look at the lengthy post of yours, which should have been used to answer the questions, but instead, you kept repeating the same thing on whether or not Mecca is in the East to Jerusalem, in spite of the maps not supporting your claim.

The questions I asked, to which you have no answers are related to the thread. The thread is not about facing the East alone, it talks about how muslims worship allaah the same ways idolaters in the socalled pre-islamic period of ignorance worship their idols, despite God's warning not to do so. Go back and read it again. Don't dodge under derailing the thread, it is not a derailment.

If you don't know the answers, let me help you out:

That allaah is worshiped the same ways as idolaters do shows he is not the true God who had earlier warned that He should not be worshipped so. At the time God gave the warning, the Meccans were already worshiping their various idols in the same way muslims are now doing. How do you tell anybody that what God warned against was what Abraham established in Mecca? Readers can now see why you are dodging.

After Jesus had finished the work of salvation for mankind, Satan took about 650 years planning to destroy it and when he had finished with his strategy, he came up with islam and Muhammad was his instrument. Satan pretended as the same God of the Bible and raised war against people (Jews and Christians) of the true God, Yahweh. He denied the Bible, claiming they adulterated it as if God has no power to protect his words. He said allaah's words can not change (Quran 10:64) and still said they changed his earlier Scripture, what a contradiction.

The same Scripture he condemned he was still recommending to Muhammad and the people, what an inconsistent liar:


Allah told Muhammad to consult the Jews and the Christians if he was in doubt of the revelations he was receiving: (And if thou art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers (Quran 10:94).

Quran 5:43
How come they come unto the (i.e Muhammad) for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? Yet even after that they turn away. Such (folk) are not believers. Even at Muhammad's time till today the Torah was valid for judgment, but only the people turned away from it according to Allah.

Quran 5:47
Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that
which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-doers. The Gospel was also valid for judgment at Muhammad's time and till date.


Quran 5:71
Say: "O People of the Book! (i.e the Jews and the Christians) Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye standfast by the Law, the Gospel and all the revelations that has come to you from your Lord. How could Allah say Jew and Christian should stand fast by the Law and Gospel if they have been corrupted?

It doesn't take rocket science to discover allaah is deceptive. He could still tell the people to make use of the Scripture he once condemned. Why?

He kept changing his revelations as if he was making mistakes and correcting himself and calling the latest revelation as better ones (Quran 2;106). He wasn't making any mistakes, he was just manipulating the ignorant and the unsuspecting. He was out to deceive.

Jesus Gospel is God's final message to the world, islam is from satan the Devil. Jesus said: And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations and then the end shall come (Mat. 24:14).

It is the Gospel that should be preached till the end of the world, God has hand in islam, no wonder muslims worship allaah like an idol[/s].

Farmerforlife:

- Repost your maps here and show us how someone in Jerusalem facing east with his back to the alleged temple, will face Makkah, by showing us with drawn lines. As far as I can see, the only city on your map that fits the description is Amman.

- Show us (with the use of appropriate lines) how it is that all worshippers in Makkah face east when praying and that by doing so, they are backing Jerusalem holding your temple.

- Tell us the status of Muslims who are in the US, Europe, and Asia, and even within Makkah itself, who face West, North or South. Are they facing correctly by your standards, since they are not backing your temple?

- If you want to insist on using the Igbo territory as an example of how to use the word east (even though such usage does not fit the description of 'facing east and backing the temple' in the verse you cited), then we understand that Igbo territory is considered 'the eastern part of NIGERIA' , not just the East in general, since the Camerounians would have to face west if they want to face Enugu. Now, Makkah is in the eastern part of what land please (we will ignore that the verse specified FACING east, and assume that it speaks of the eastern part of a country, like Igbo land). So what country or territory is Makkah in the Eastern part of, please?

Farmerforlife:


Anyone who does not answer the questions of others does not deserve to have his questions answered...



Your whole op relies on the fiction that Muslims face East and back Jerusalem. Prove that point first before adding connections and permutations.

truthman2012:


The OP talks about muslims facing the East and they copying idolaters. How muslims copy idolaters are clearly stated in the the thread, you obviously lying.

Still dodging. Anyway, I have answered the questions for you.



Bye.

Next !!!

Farmerforlife:


Op praises op. Do you do that often? It seems to me to be an obvious sign of self esteem issues, and striving for relevance, at least online, if not in real life. Pastoral business is slow lately? Dont worry, every business model has a boom period then total decline. Try Keke Napep. At least it is more productive.

truthman2012:


How does that explain why muslims follow the way of idol worshipers, doing abomination to God?

How does that explain why muslims claim Adam built Kaaba, when it is not evident that he was created in Mecca?

How does that explain why allaah had to still throw the black stone to Abraham to locate the site of Kaaba, when the foundation was allegedly laid by Adam already?

How does that explain why Abraham would establish islamic rituals that is compatible with idol worship in Mecca when God said He should not be worshipped the same ways idolaters do?

Even Pickthal, a renown Islamic scholar and quran translator knew that what they were doing to worship allaah is the custom of the pagans and not the custom of Abraham and Ishmael:

[Quranl 2:158 Pickthal] Lo! (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the indications of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who is on pilgrimage to the House (of Allah) or visiteth it, to go around them (as the pagan custom is). And he who doeth good of his own accord, (for him) lo! Allah is Responsive, Aware.