C2H5OH:

Yes o @ Kunbee I dey waka pass religion every blue moon.

Some of the asinine blathering tripe I've read in several posts sadly killed my interest in the damn topic.

I love wat noetic and david r doing its not easy but i dont have d patience dey have so i dont come here also, no read it and ignore d insults nexttime use d searchengine ok miss u ooooo

@ Buda Atum

1. I am very interested in ur notion that "Laws preceded God" . . , .I would love to know ur idea of God. . . , cos ur assertion reflect that u believe/think that God has a definite begining.
Its a different thing not to believe in God, its however a completely different thing to think that God has a begining and a set of laws preceded Him.

2. First u must understand that the issue of laws might precede the 10 commandments , but they DO NOT precede the human conscience. why did Cain feel guilty when he killed abel, even though there was no law that asked him not to kill? The human conscience preceded all laws. The human conscience is DIRECTLY linked to convictions. . .so how do u explain the convictions of a non-religious young person that reflect the 10 commandments of God?

3. While the children of Israel were given the 10 commandments, the Edomites (who are the children of Esau) also had their Laws, The bible records a king receiving a revelation in genesis 20, and lastly the kinsmen and descendants of ishmael. . . , these group of people received LAWS from God not recorded in the bible. . . .but we know one thing, these laws are definitely related to the ones the Israelites received.

My point is that God is universal. . . . all laws that have stood the test of time, season and generations are from God. . . .all other man made laws have been amended.

4. the creation myths are irrelevant in this debate unless u want to state how they support the notion that God had a begining.

noetic4:
I would love to know your idea of God

Your assertion that 'God' had no beginning is not what I have found to be true. I myself am not a believing person. The reason I do not believe in Gods is that I have read of so many of them that it makes no sense to me to accept any one of the one's that I know of as being the definitive One God. A look at the Judaic Scripture, and the Bible which evolved from it, clearly shows that even the Jews believed in a myriad of Gods before they settled on Yahweh, Jehova. It is why they resorted to not naming it in the beginning, to avoid conflict amongst the people. If they do not give their God a name, they reasoned, no one could claim they worshipped some other God.

A later resolution to this problem of many Gods is what Moses attempted on Mount Sinai. "I am the Lord thy God", begins the Ten Commandments, "thou shalt not have any other Gods but me". If there were no other Gods to have, I have always asked, why would the one single God that exists pass such a law? And when I check the written evidence, I have found that there were, and still are many Gods, so why believe a thing that is not true? Saying that, I do not suggest that others reason as I do! There may be many Gods for buda, but that is no reason for others to follow in my thinking if he evidence does not suggest as it does to me.

That said, human conscience is indeed necessary for laws to exist. One must be a reasoning person to institute laws in the first place, and these would be based on some rational. A person may know, for instance that theft is not a good thing as it deprives a person of the things that rightly are his or hers. If someone else just takes them when they wish, then how is one to live? Might not one resort to stealing the life of the stealer of one's goods? It is for the protection of personal property therefore that a law would be passed that one shall not covet one's neighbours’ goods. All societies have eventually come to this concussion whether they know Yahweh or not, as the evidence clearly shows. So when you claim that conscience existed long before the laws, yes, you would have to be correct, for without consciousness, there would be no awareness of a better way to institute society.

Consciousness is what makes a person have a conscience. To be conscious, one has to have knowledge of humans and their environment. In fact, the way that this is described in the Bible is that Adam and Eve acquired consciousness when it is said that they ate the fruit of Good and Evil. They gained knowledge, became aware, and acquired consciousness, and thereby a conscience, which is the reason they are said to have hidden their unclothedness. Before that fruit eating, they knew nothing, and there were no laws, except "Do not eat of the fruit of Good and Evil", with the punishment clearly stated.

Now, as you say, a "group of people received LAWS from God not recorded in the bible". Abimelech in Genesis 20 was the King of Gerar. When Abraham arrived there he found that they too had laws indeed, and the Bible has it recorded that God spoke to him, but where does such a statement come from? Is it not the writers of the Bible who make such an assertion? How do they know that it was God who said these things to Abimelech? How do they know it was Abraham's God? Could it not also be that Abimelech was a good King who ruled a country which had laws? Do note that Abraham lied about his wife because he thought they had no laws! But that is to question the Bible, and you have shown too much regard for my opinion for me to rightly propose such things, knowing your position.

On a pertinent note, if the majority of people do not believe that laws come from their God they will not obey them. If people do not believe that there is a punishment for transgression, they will transgress. In essence, this discussion is more philosophical on my part, and not intended to make one depart from their held beliefs. Historically speaking however, there is a truth as to the origin of laws.