Im sory 2 say dat its quite alarming at d rate at which d devil has been able 2 brainwash so many pple.but come 2 think of it i ve few question 2 d SO CALLED ATHIEST among us .1)how did man come into existence, 2)aw did nature into existence, 3)y does some things luk bad and absurd, 4)aw do miracles come about, 5)aw do witches come abt and dnt u think dey ve a superior?, 6)do u believe satan exist, 7).y r some pple very bad nd some goom and finaly, what happens after death?, pls i wnt u 2 answer with all sincerety.

Deep sight what is this original ideas banter you keep heckling? Can you explain better, giving examples of your own "original ideas"? Merci.

huxley:

Check this out - Existence is the condition exhibited when something is perceivable and will have one or more of the following;

1) A lifetime
2) it possesses matter, energy

1. is God in-perceivable?

2. Does God not poccess energy? or matter?. . . .how do u describe the physical manifestation of Jesus Christ on earth?

3. Does God not have a life-time? have u ever heard of ETERNITY? did Jesus not live on earth for 33 years?

And most of ALL Something that exist CANNOT BEAR internal inconsistency. For example, We know a square circle cannot exist because there is internal inconsistence in their definitions.

ur argument above is NOT valid.

how would u describe the combination of a square and circle? there is NO inconsistency in a this combination. . . or is there?
I would call this combination a square-circle. . . , . . .is there a conflict?

My Friend Deep Sight,

By the tone of your post, i seem to have touched a nerve, my language must have offended you. I am very sorry for any derogatorily remark. You are indeed one of my treasured contributor along with about 5 other people  to this forum. Please accept my profound apology.

Now back to business.  

- IS A REFERENTIAL EXAMPLE ONLY directed towards demonstrating that the Atheist is only intent on, and indeed only capable of heckling, as opposed to [b]advancing original ideas [/b]of his own. It is not a statement that that seeks to serve as uncorroborated proof of any of the equations cited as heckled examples.

You cannot compartmentalize Atheists as hecklers, in fact hecklers like sinners span all religions, professions and race. About advancing original ideas, i am sorry that it is highly improbable in this 21st century to advance any original idea. We are all a composite of what we read or learnt from a pot-pourri of different sources and it is all those amalgamation of those ideas that make up what we believe. It is even those ideas that determine the perspective we look at issues.

The difference between us on the subject matter is that while i look at issues mainly from the pure scientific perspective, you look at issues from  Mathematical (abstract) and  conceptual  perspective.  so we see opposite sides of the same coin.

While conceptually the term" outside the universe" is allowed and deemed possible, Scientifically exo-universe is not allowed, because everything that exists, that is known and that is probable, is said to exist within the universe even though the universe is expanding ( don't ask me what it is expanding into  ).

Also absolute nothing or zero exist mathematically and conceptually, but in science the zero has to be quantified, that is why i asked, zero what?. Because all the space within the universe must contain something, either matter or energy (even space is regarded as something). So absolute nothingness is not allowed and does not exist in science.

Finally about your grand argument of nothingness producing something, scientifically again  THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF MASS - ENERGY IN THE UNIVERSE IS CONSTANT, had been constant since the beginning ( ), is constant now and will forever be constant. So nothing is created out of nothing, or even something.

I hope you accepted my earlier apology.

e4emma:

Im sory 2 say dat its quite alarming at d rate at which d devil has been able 2 brainwash so many pple.but come 2 think of it i ve few question 2 d SO CALLED ATHIEST among us .1)how did man come into existence, 2)aw did nature into existence, 3)y does some things luk bad and absurd, 4)aw do miracles come about, 5)aw do witches come abt and dnt u think dey ve a superior?, 6)do u believe satan exist, 7).y r some pple very bad nd some goom and finaly, what happens after death?, pls i wnt u 2 answer with all sincerety.

How old are you?

O comon, naughty you Tudor, we have spoken repeatedly of a formless element comprised of the singularity of space and time. we have also sought to use examples of genetics and logic to show that the originating quantity possesses intelligence.

There you are: God, Brahman, Orisha, Chineke, Allah, whatever you like!

Man made distortions through religion are irelevant!

wirinet:

My Friend Deep Sight,

By the tone of your post, i seem to have touched a nerve, my language must have offended you. I am very sorry for any derogatorily remark. You are indeed one of my treasured contributor along with about 5 other people to this forum. Please accept my profound apology.

O thank you! That's very kind of you, i admit, the "blinding ignorance" comment did prickle me quite a bit. I also apologize if i was deliberately heavy-handed in my response, thanks man!

@Atheist

This na old story jor! you keep on posting this in every page where those who think God does not exist congregate.

Look for another excuse for your failure to comprehend the existence of God

We all know God exist! it is either you accept or try to ignore it, you can never run away from it!

GOD bless you. Amen

Wirinet -

As a pont of interest, (although you said i should not ask) - What really is the universe expanding into.

It is expanding into space, is it not?

If so, can it really be true to state that space and time were created by the big bang?

What was there say 20 seconds before the big bang? Was that a different point in time than say - 30 seconds before the big bang (never mind that we were not there to measure the time, but surely, time is a non-contingent continuum?)

Does it not emerge that space and time are infinite and limitless and cannot be circumscribed by this universe or any other for that matter?

And if they are infinite could that be useful in understanding the uncaused cause.

Deep Sight:

O comon, naughty you Tudor, we have spoken repeatedly of a formless element comprised of the singularity of space and time. we have also sought to use examples of genetics and logic to show that the originating quantity possesses intelligence.

There you are: God, Brahman, Orisha, Chineke, Allah, whatever you like!

Man made distortions through religion are irelevant!

Spot on simply spot on   the above highlighted is what i have always tried to make our religous zealots and atheist alike understand, the problem is man and NOT God. Religions as we practise them are man made the way God expects us to practise religion is stated clearly in the bible but hardly any church practises it that way. Biblical definition of religion is as follows: James 1:27:
27External religious worship [religion as it is expressed in outward acts] that is pure and unblemished in the sight of God the Father is this: to visit and help and care for the orphans and widows in their affliction and need, and to keep oneself unspotted and uncontaminated from the world.

Deep Sight:

O thank you! That's very kind of you, i admit, the "blinding ignorance" comment did prickle me quite a bit. I also apologize if i was deliberately heavy-handed in my response, thanks man!

Oh thou faint hearted lawyer. . .i've been hit with worse. . .

Deep Sight:

O comon, naughty you Tudor, we have spoken repeatedly of a formless element comprised of the singularity of space and time. we have also sought to use examples of genetics and logic to show that the originating quantity possesses intelligence.

Not we but you, and you failed woefully I might add.

There you are: God, Brahman, Orisha, Chineke, Allah, whatever you like!
Man made distortions through religion are irelevant!

Whether you admit it or no they are not all the same thing. The cause of the universe is very different from the variety of names you mentioned above. They are purely religious concepts and do not exist.

Tudór:

Oh thou faint hearted lawyer. . .i've been hit with worse. . .

But you have this way of ignoring the lines of reasoning i give you (like above), and then reappearing two days later screaming "where is your proof."

Tudor, show me a fossilized Giraffe with a neck at an intermediate length of today's Giraffes, if you can.

Tudór:

Whether you admit it or no they are not all the same thing. The cause of the universe is very different from the variety of names you mentioned above. They are purely religious concepts and do not exist.

.

These are names people ascribe to the creator.

An uncaused cause is definitely the creator.

Does it matter if in the process they begin to imagine other attributes and ascribe such to the creator?

Would that change the fact that they are talking about the First Mover?

Importantly - would that first mover cease to exist merely because they mis-characterized him?

Listen to yourself closely: Tudor: "Since Michael's description of the wind is wrong, contradictory and evil, then the wind does not exist"

? ? ? ? ? ?

noetic2:

1. is God in-perceivable?

2. Does God not poccess energy? or matter?. . . .how do u describe the physical manifestation of Jesus Christ on earth?

3. Does God not have a life-time? have u ever heard of ETERNITY? did Jesus not live on earth for 33 years?

your argument above is NOT valid.

how would u describe the combination of a square and circle? there is NO inconsistency in a this combination. . . or is there?
I would call this combination a square-circle. . . ,  . . .is there a conflict?

When some talks like this, you know there are no longer on this planet.   Square-circle?  That can only come from a mind deluded by superstition.

Huxley, can you tell me what internal inconsistency there is with God as I have defined and described him.

Deep Sight:

Huxley, can you tell me what internal inconsistency there is with God as I have defined and described him.

Hello,

Sorry, I might have missed you definition of God. Can you repeat it again, stating the ontological properties of God, like;

1) His location in space and time
2) His form
3) His capabilities
4) Whether he can be perceived and how?

etc, etc.

Deep Sight:

.

These are names people ascribe to the creator.

An uncaused cause is definitely the creator.

Does it matter if in the process they begin to imagine other attributes and ascribe such to the creator?

Would that change the fact that they are talking about the First Mover?

Yes it does change. If you talk about a cause and stop there no problems but when you start adding extra baggage you talking about a whole 'noda thing that exists in your imagination.

As a side note, "the creator" implies deliberate, intentional and intelligence, right?. That is what religions propagate and we're yet to see proof.

Importantly - would that first mover cease to exist merely because they mis-characterized him?

God, allah, zeus or whatever isn't the first mover. God, allah or zeus don't exist.

Listen to yourself closely: Tudor: "Since Michael's description of the wind is wrong, contradictory and evil, then the wind does not exist"

? ? ? ? ? ?

If micheal describes the wind as flowing invincible water sent forth by two mountains having sex, then what micheal has described doesn't exist. Simple.

Deep Sight:



But you have this way of ignoring the lines of reasoning i give you (like above), and then reappearing two days later screaming "where is your proof."

You're lines or reasoning aren't always valid you know.

Tudor, show me a fossilized Giraffe with a neck at an intermediate length of today's Giraffes, if you can.

I'll get to digging my backyard to see if I can find one for you. . .

Deep Sight:

Wirinet -

As a pont of interest, (although you said i should not ask) - What really is the universe expanding into.

It is expanding into space, is it not?

If so, can it really be true to state that space and time were created by the big bang?

What was there say 20 seconds before the big bang? Was that a different point in time than say - 30 seconds before the big bang (never mind that we were not there to measure the time, but surely, time is a non-contingent continuum?)

Does it not emerge that space and time are infinite and limitless and cannot be circumscribed by this universe or any other for that matter?

And if they are infinite could that be useful in understanding the uncaused cause.

You had to ask!!!!. Anyway what was the universe expanding into? the answer goes beyond me. I am not an arrogant know it all Atheist, I know my limits. So scientitifically, I do not know.

But let me tell you what i know.

I know that objects in the universe (stars, galaxies and quasars) are racing away from each other, and from our point of reference, it looks as if our solar system is centric and the further an object is to us, the faster it seems to run away from us and also away from objects within its vicinity.  So that led scientist to conclude that the universe is inflating like a balloon, thereby giving the impression that all objects within the balloon are separating further and further with time. Therefore we can conclude that the universe must have been a little bit smaller today than it was yesterday, and the day before ad infinitum. So the conclusion goes that at a certain time in the past, the universe (all of energy- matter and space)must have been very small as to be called a point or singularity whereby further contraction is not possible. It is assumed this singularity must have been stable for eternity ( remember under those conditions time would not exist). Now something would then have triggered the singularity to become unstable, resulting in a rapid expansion - a bang often referred to as the big bang, thereby giving rise to time.

Now 20 seconds before the big bang is not possible because the conditions then in the universe makes time infinite or stand still. Time immediately after the big bang would be so distorted that (assuming we were there), it would be impossible to measure. Remember the Black hole, as we approach the singularity, time and space starts getting distorted, and at the centre of the black hole itself, time and space is said to cease to exist. So it would even be impossible to measure 20s or even 20mins after the big bank. This is the best explanation for the expanding universe we have today. If i find a better one i will embrace it .

Science have not been able to conceptualize a limitless space and time. Time is the most controversial and difficult quantity of the universe, because i often wonder what really is time.

Is time really the mechanical tick tock of a mechanical clock or time is a perception, perceived only by sentient beings. That is the topic for another day.

huxley:

When some talks like this, you know there are no longer on this planet.   Square-circle?  That can only come from a mind deluded by superstition.

who is to blame for ur lack of objectivity?

argh, argh Deep Sight!

Where is your definition of God naah?

Huxey - I have said it already, i repeat:

God is -

The uncaused cause, the ultimate singularity inherent in the uniform infinity of time and space, and beyond this, the primordial non-contingent "idea" of existence, bearing all the hallmarks of Intelligence and thereby presupposing a conscious entity.

You may, if you like, call it the mind of the universe, but i believe the universe to be finite, so it will be more apt to say: the mind of existence.

Deep Sight:

Huxey - I have said it already, i repeat:

God is -

The uncaused cause, the ultimate singularity inherent in the uniform infinity of time and space, and beyond this, the primordial non-contingent "idea" of existence, bearing all the hallmarks of Intelligence and thereby presupposing a conscious entity.

You may, if you like, call it the mind of the universe, but i believe the universe to be finite, so it will be more apt to say: the mind of existence.

OK, cool. Lets examine that definition;

1) Firstly, how did you come to know about this definition of God? And how do we, humans, know about the attributes of God?

2) What does "ultimate singularity" mean.

3) Did you mean "Beyond space and time"?


4) Is God within the universe and also without the universe?


5) Does God inter-act with the universe? If he does, by what mechanism?

wirinet:

You had to ask!!!!. Anyway what was the universe expanding into? the answer goes beyond me. I am not an arrogant know it all Atheist, I know my limits. So scientitifically, I do not know.

But let me tell you what i know.

I know that objects in the universe (stars, galaxies and quasars) are racing away from each other, and from our point of reference, it looks as if our solar system is centric and the further an object is to us, the faster it seems to run away from us and also away from objects within its vicinity.  So that led scientist to conclude that the universe is inflating like a balloon, thereby giving the impression that all objects within the balloon are separating further and further with time. Therefore we can conclude that the universe must have been a little bit smaller today than it was yesterday, and the day before ad infinitum. So the conclusion goes that at a certain time in the past, the universe (all of energy- matter and space)must have been very small as to be called a point or singularity whereby further contraction is not possible. It is assumed this singularity must have been stable for eternity ( remember under those conditions time would not exist). Now something would then have triggered the singularity to become unstable, resulting in a rapid expansion - a bang often referred to as the big bang, thereby giving rise to time.

Now 20 seconds before the big bang is not possible because the conditions then in the universe makes time infinite or stand still. Time immediately after the big bang would be so distorted that (assuming we were there), it would be impossible to measure. Remember the Black hole, as we approach the singularity, time and space starts getting distorted, and at the centre of the black hole itself, time and space is said to cease to exist. So it would even be impossible to measure 20s or even 20mins after the big bank. This is the best explanation for the expanding universe we have today. If i find a better one i will embrace it .

Science have not been able to conceptualize a limitless space and time. Time is the most controversial and difficult quantity of the universe, because i often wonder what really is time.

Is time really the mechanical tick tock of a mechanical clock or time is a perception, perceived only by sentient beings. That is the topic for another day.

This is extremely interesting. I would like us to discuss, on a thread i will create for that purpose, the nature of TIME.

But as a teaser - Do you believe it is possible to go back in time.

If you run from point-A to point-B and it takes you 1 minute. . . You double your speed and it takes you 30 seconds. . . you double your speed again and it takes you fifteen seconds, we carry on increasing speed up till the point where it takes you no measurable time to arrive at point B. On, and on we increase the speed untill we arrive at a point whereby you arrive at point B at the exact moment that you left point A. Then we increase the speed even more, and then we arrive at a point that you arrive at Point B 1 second before you left Point A. You have crossed the Time Barrier through speed, and you have traveled to the past.

Guys. . . what do you think. . . but dont really want to derail this thread, so i'll open one on this ASAP

Deep Sight:

This is extremely interesting. I would like us to discuss, on a thread i will create for that purpose, the nature of TIME.

But as a teaser - Do you believe it is possible to go back in time.

If you run from point-A to point-B and it takes you 1 minute. . . You double your speed and it takes you 30 seconds. . . you double your speed again and it takes you fifteen seconds, we carry on increasing speed up till the point where it takes you no measurable time to arrive at point B. On, and on we increase the speed untill we arrive at a point whereby you arrive at point B at the exact moment that you left point A. Then we increase the speed even more, and then we arrive at a point that you arrive at Point B 1 second before you left Point A. You have crossed the Time Barrier through speed, and you have traveled to the past.

Guys. . . what do you think. . . but dont really want to derail this thread, so i'll open one on this ASAP

Please provide a link to the thread that you wanna open on the concept of TIME, this is getting interesting. Ciao!

I wonder attimes if people are sane, cos why would someone put up a thread like this just cos you dont believe anymore in something that you are supposed to believe in, if you were ever born again, which i seriously doubt you wouldnt talk trash cos God hmmm, you really should be ashamed.[color=][/color][color=][/color]

Sorry guys, but I have one small question: For those who believed in the theory of evolution, what will evolve out of men? This is an honest question please, I've just been thinking, if man evolve from something, what will evolve from homo sapiens? Are we the end of the evolution chain? is the chain linear or a cycle?

superman 


What's the point in predicting an evolutionary pattern. maybe we would have shorter men, men with longer hair, men that can last longer under water. who freaking knows

Wirinet, Huxley, Tudor, Prizm, Allta, please join me in the TIME discussion below.

(Is it too much to hope Noetic & Davidylan, our dear Christian Soldiers will also be interested. . . )


https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-327706.0.html

Deep Sight:

This is extremely interesting. I would like us to discuss, on a thread i will create for that purpose, the nature of TIME.

But as a teaser - Do you believe it is possible to go back in time.

If you run from point-A to point-B and it takes you 1 minute. . . You double your speed and it takes you 30 seconds. . . you double your speed again and it takes you fifteen seconds, we carry on increasing speed up till the point where it takes you no measurable time to arrive at point B. On, and on we increase the speed untill we arrive at a point whereby you arrive at point B at the exact moment that you left point A. Then we increase the speed even more, and then we arrive at a point that you arrive at Point B 1 second before you left Point A. You have crossed the Time Barrier through speed, and you have traveled to the past.

Guys. . . what do you think. . . but dont really want to derail this thread, so i'll open one on this ASAP

It will be an interesting and intellectually stimulating thread, I pray i have enough time to contribute meaningfully as i have a lot on my hands now.

As a fore runner to the anticipated thread - No it is not possible to go back in time. This same line of thought was what Einstein grappled with and he wickedly placed a limit of c. He said nothing and i mean NOTHING  can travel faster than light, and the universe seems religiously to obey that commandment. Thereby effectively placing a ban on time travel.

Deep Sight:

Wirinet, Huxley, Tudor, Prizm, Allta, please join me in the TIME discussion below.

(Is it too much to hope Noetic & Davidylan, our dear Christian Soldiers will also be interested. . . )


https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-327706.0.html

Am still waiting for answers to my 5 questions above. Is that too much to ask?

huxley:

OK, cool. Lets examine that definition;

1) Firstly, how did you come to know about this definition of God? And how do we, humans, know about the attributes of God?

2) What does "ultimate singularity" mean.

3) Did you mean "Beyond space and time"?


4) Is God within the universe and also without the universe?


5) Does God inter-act with the universe? If he does, by what mechanism?

1. I came about that definition of God by contemplating space & time, and reflecting on known principles of Causation, juxtaposing that with the concept of Eternity, and studying the interesting realities within the cosmos.

2. Ultimate Singularity meansthe unified convergence of all space and all time as one single essence.

3. Yes, i meant beyond space and time because a cause naturally stands outside its effect, although it may also be inherent in it.

4. Yes, therefore God, being the "ultimate singularity" is both beyond and within the universe: (thus the theory of omnipresence)

5. Naturally he must interact with the universe in the sense that light rays from a candle spring forth from the fire? The Universe, as you know, is pulsating with something called "Dark Energy" and this can only be vibrations from the sustaining power of the energy that caused the Universe.

So you see, these questions of yours are very simple indeed, yes?

wirinet:

It will be an interesting and intellectually stimulating thread, I pray i have enough time to contribute meaningfully as i have a lot on my hands now.

As a fore runner to the anticipated thread - No it is not possible to go back in time. This same line of thought was what Einstein grappled with and he wickedly placed a limit of c. He said nothing and i mean NOTHING  can travel faster than light, and the universe seems religiously to obey that commandment. Thereby effectively placing a ban on time travel.

@ Wirinet: Einstein observed the speed of light. We must agree that Einstein being mortal did not have the time to observe the speed of every other conceivable quatity in the universe. It has been proven that there are invisible energies and quantities which were not even known of in Einstein's lifetime. So please, let's not assume his work cannot be improved upon.

What if an energy is discovered that travels even faster than light?

Has it occured to you that If really extra-terrestials visit the earth, they may already have such a technology, because even at the speed of light it would take them millions or billions of years to traverse galaxies. . . whereas they seem to do so with ease and frequency. . . they must have something beyond that. . . just a thought o!