mantraa:

@deep sight
That is a truly beautiful photo.

Doesnt it make you think why? what caused it to exist? How did all those  billions of stars come together to form that amazing galaxy? How many planets are in there? Is there other life forms in there? are they intelligent?
We need to keep on searching for answers to understand this fantastic universe that we are a part of.
20 years ago we could not even have seen an image like this if it was not for the scientists who refused to stop searching for the answers and built the space telescopes. We are literally infants in our evolution on this planet and are just begining to find out about our universe like a child that has just left his house for the first time and realises he is in a huge city, with other cities and countries to discover and explore.

Who knows what we will find?
Why limit yourself to just 2 possibilities. Just be patient, and dont jump to conclusions.

the answer is out there

davidylan:

you really shld keep quiet yourself, why you run around asking others to provide proof for your own spiritual insecurity is baffling.

what is mantraa afraid of? why cant he answer questions engendered by his own posts? Why do atheists have no explanation for their own claims?

mantraa:

If i had the answer for the existence of the universe i would tell you, but i do not and have no problem acknowledgeing that. Nobody does. That is the reason why we have scientists gathering more and more facts and knowledge to increase our understanding and wisdom.
So no, I am not arrogant enough to claim that i do.

Are you?

Tudór:

Same old perverse logic from deepsight. . .look at a picture and magically conclude a magician created it.

mantraa:

@deep sight
That is a truly beautiful photo.

Doesnt it make you think why? what caused it to exist? How did all those  billions of stars come together to form that amazing galaxy? How many planets are in there? Is there other life forms in there? are they intelligent?
We need to keep on searching for answers to understand this fantastic universe that we are a part of.
20 years ago we could not even have seen an image like this if it was not for the scientists who refused to stop searching for the answers and built the space telescopes. We are literally infants in our evolution on this planet and are just begining to find out about our universe like a child that has just left his house for the first time and realises he is in a huge city, with other cities and countries to discover and explore.

Who knows what we will find?
Why limit yourself to just 2 possibilities. Just be patient, and dont jump to conclusions.

the answer is out there

mantraa:

If i had the answer for the existence of the universe i would tell you, but i do not and have no problem acknowledgeing that. Nobody does. That is the reason why we have scientists gathering more and more facts and knowledge to increase our understanding and wisdom.
So no, I am not arrogant enough to claim that i do.

Are you?

mantraa:

Open your mind. What makes you so sure that there are only 2 possible explanations, chance or a god, or to be more precise your god out of the hundreds of other gods that people beleive in. The search for the true answer to the big question is not helped when you jump to the bronze age conclusion that yahweh did it. [size=15pt]There are many more possibilities[/size] and like a detective we need to piece together the evidence and understand more about our universe and our history to come to a more rational answer.

Why do religious people think that they know the answer and are 100% certain that their answer is right. Do they not see that thousands of other religions claim to have the true answer. It is only the scientists who admit that they do not know and continue seaching, thus increasing our knowledge and understanding of this beautifull planet and awe inspiring universe.

Deep Sight:

I am all for this.

But let me ask you a question: If God exists, do you think scientists will ever find him? Perhaps create a ship advanced enough to traverse non-material realms and advanced dimensions until they find the primordial light, which is what God is?

Do you think this question can ever be resolved by SCIENCE?

Don't you think basic intuition and common sense can sometimes give best directions to simple answers?

Deep Sight:

Really? Perverse logic? Tell me what you would think of a man who came across the Mona Lisa and insists it had no painter. Perverse? Think deeply, Tudor.

There has never been any perverse logic. We said seeing effects demands a cause. We sought to determine some basic attributes of that cause.

The painting example is one thing. If you consider that the earth is not just a painting, but a beautiful, custom made home for living things, exhibiting astonishing planetary engineering, you just might want to reconsider which is perverse:

   It was engineered by Intelligence OR

   It popped out of Tudor's cereal breakfast. . .

Perverse? Think again, brother.

Tudór:

Common sense told us disease were caused by evil spirits. . .basic intuition led us to believe the earth is the center of the universe. . .like I said, perverse and ridiculous logic. Science is our ONLY hope, all others are thoughtless ramblings.

Tudór:

Havent you heard the quote " There's order in chaos".

Deep Sight:

Common Sense never told you diesease was caused by evil spirits. Fear told you that.

Intuition never told you the earth was the centre of the universe. A mis-interpretation of some old documents told you that.

Besides, Commonsense, in case you did not know, Tudor, is another word for LOGIC?

Do you have a problem with logic?

What are these "many possibilities"? Only 1 or 2 should suffice. Thank you.

Deep Sight:

Really? There's order in chaos? And that's your answer for spiral DNA, red blood cell clotting, the planetary water cycle, the botanical-planetary respiratory cycle, the cross-continental migration of new born birds, and the patterns on the back of a butterfly.

That's your answer for these things - simply - "There is order in chaos"?

That's lame, and you know it.

Tudór:

I do have a problem with perverse logic.

mantraa:

Ok. here's a couple of possibilities.

1.Steady-state expanding : Matter creation rate maintains constant density. Continuous creation out of nothing from nowhere. Exponential expansion.

2. Eternal Inflation (a multiple universe model): A multiverse, based on the concept of cold inflation, in which inflationary events occur at random each with independent initial conditions; some expand into bubble universes supposedly like our entire cosmos. Bubbles nucleate in a spacetime foam.

There are many other hypothesis, but like i said earlier, i do not know the answer, nobody does. There is so much more to learn

Deep Sight:

RIGHT, MANTRAA & TUDOR - I CHALLENGE YOU TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION:

SINCE YOU BOTH SAY: WE DO NOT KNOW -

Then: ALL POSSIBILITIES SHOULD BE KEPT OPEN RIGHT?

DO YOU DENY THAT CREATION BY A SUPERNATURAL DEITY IS ONE OF THE POSSIBILITIES?

WILL YOU STATE THAT EVERY OTHER POSSIBILITY SHOULD BE KEPT OPEN, BUT THIS SINGLE ONE SHOULD BE SHUT?

IF, SO, FOR WHAT REASON MUST WE CONSIDER CHANCE, ALIENS, FORCES, EQUATIONS ETC, AND KICK OUT THE POSSIBILITY OF A DEITY.

I NEED TO KNOW IF IT REMAINS A POSSIBILITY WHICH SHOULD BE LOOKED INTO.

NO EVASIVE ANSWERS PLEASE.

Deep Sight:

DO YOU DENY THAT CREATION BY A SUPERNATURAL DEITY IS ONE OF THE POSSIBILITIES?

Krayola:

haha. . deepsight, u claim to have beef with dogma but your assertions are IMO no less dogmatic than anyone else's.

"look at this beautiful picture. . .it is sooo beautiful and amazing that is must have been created by a supreme being" And u insist anyone that doesn't agree with this your reasoning is lost. . .

It's a lot of fun watchin u do your thing.

Krayola:

It is a possibility.

what's the next step?

Deep Sight:

Really? Perverse logic? Tell me what you would think of a man who came across the Mona Lisa and insists it had no painter. Perverse? Think deeply, Tudor.

There has never been any perverse logic. We said seeing effects demands a cause. We sought to determine some basic attributes of that cause.

The painting example is one thing. If you consider that the earth is not just a painting, but a beautiful, custom made home for living things, exhibiting astonishing planetary engineering, you just might want to reconsider which is perverse:

  It was engineered by Intelligence OR

  It popped out of Tudor's cereal breakfast. . .

Perverse? Think again, brother.

Deep Sight:

RIGHT, MANTRAA & TUDOR - I CHALLENGE YOU TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION:

SINCE YOU BOTH SAY: WE DO NOT KNOW -

Then: ALL POSSIBILITIES SHOULD BE KEPT OPEN RIGHT?

DO YOU DENY THAT CREATION BY A SUPERNATURAL DEITY IS ONE OF THE POSSIBILITIES?

WILL YOU STATE THAT EVERY OTHER POSSIBILITY SHOULD BE KEPT OPEN, BUT THIS SINGLE ONE SHOULD BE SHUT?

IF, SO, FOR WHAT REASON MUST WE CONSIDER CHANCE, ALIENS, FORCES, EQUATIONS ETC, AND KICK OUT THE POSSIBILITY OF A DEITY.

I NEED TO KNOW IF IT REMAINS A POSSIBILITY WHICH SHOULD BE LOOKED INTO.

NO EVASIVE ANSWERS PLEASE.

duduspace:

Some people also claimed to see a face on the moon, (the work of natural forces in operation on the moon changing the moonscape) and said they had seen the face of god. If eternity is timeless as most people claim then anything that can happen will definitely happen and maybe, just maybe what we know in the present is simply an event within a limitless sample space. But yu wouldn't be willing to accept that would you? for the simple reason that it would make "Randomness" become the god that you are desperately seeking.

Deep Sight:

RIGHT, MANTRAA & TUDOR - I CHALLENGE YOU TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION:

SINCE YOU BOTH SAY: WE DO NOT KNOW -

Then: ALL POSSIBILITIES SHOULD BE KEPT OPEN RIGHT?

DO YOU DENY THAT CREATION BY A SUPERNATURAL DEITY IS ONE OF THE POSSIBILITIES?

WILL YOU STATE THAT EVERY OTHER POSSIBILITY SHOULD BE KEPT OPEN, BUT THIS SINGLE ONE SHOULD BE SHUT?

IF, SO, FOR WHAT REASON MUST WE CONSIDER CHANCE, ALIENS, FORCES, EQUATIONS ETC, AND KICK OUT THE POSSIBILITY OF A DEITY.

I NEED TO KNOW IF IT REMAINS A POSSIBILITY[b] WHICH SHOULD BE LOOKED INTO.
[/b]
NO EVASIVE ANSWERS PLEASE.

Deep Sight:

What's so random about these, especially when they all appear in one customised world fit for living things: spiral DNA, red blood cell clotting, the planetary water cycle, the botanical-planetary respiratory cycle, the cross-continental migration of new born birds, and the patterns on the back of a butterfly.

Random?

Think again.

Yes, if eternity is eternity anything that can happen will happen, but a customized set of happenings strung together will indicate a mind at work not randomness, no? Because in your argument, there would be individual happenings strung every where, not a lucid organized happening, no?

Syria, Aleppo - 1138
Earthquake kills 230,000 people


Japan, 1181
A famine wipes out at least 100,000 people.



Egypt and Syria, 1201
The deadliest earthquake in history hit the eastern Mediterranean in July 1201. Approximately 1.1 million people were killed, mostly in Egypt and Syria. This makes it close to one of the ten worst natural disasters in recorded history.




Netherlands, 1228
Estimate: 100,000 lives lost from the flooding after some dykes broke.


Netherlands, 1287
The Zuider Zee flooded after a seawall callapsed. At least 50,000 people were killed in Holland and more than 500 in England as a result.


China, 1290
Earthquake takes at least 100,000 people.



Most of Europe and beyond, 1347-1350
Approximately 25 million lost their lives through the [size=18pt]"Black Death"[/size] - the bubonic plague. Between 25 and 33% of the entire population of Europe at that time, plus millions in Asia and North Africa lost their lives.




China, 1556
Earthquake in Shansi, China kills about 830,000


China, 1642
Flooding takes about 300,000 lives.


Spain, 1649
Plague takes about 80,000 lives in Seville.


China, 1556
The second deadliest earthquake was in the Chinese province of Shaanzi on February 2, 1556. It killed 830,000 people.


England, 1665
More than 100,000 lives were taken by the plague, London was worst hit.


Japan, 1730
Earthquake took the lives of some 137,000 people.


India, 1737
First it was thought to be an earthquake, but more recent scientific studies have re-classified it as a typhoon - this tragedy killed some 300,000 in Calcutta.


Portugal, 1755
Over 100,000 lost their lives through "the Lisbon earthquake" and resulting tsunami.



India, 1769
About ten million people lost their lives from a famine in Bengal.




North America, 1775-82
Smallpox takes around 130,000 lives.


Iran, 1780
As many as 200,000 were killed in an earthquake near Tabriz.


Iceland, 1783
a volcanic eruption (that included the largest basalt flow in recorded history) poisoned the island's pastures and caused the starvation of about 25% of the population - 30,000+.


Indonesia, 1815
Mount Tambora (volcano) on Sumbawa Island released about 50 cubic kilometers of magma over at least 500,000 square kilometers of Indonesia and the Java Sea. That eruption and the resulting tsunami took at least 10,000 lives. But the famine and disease that followed took another 82,000 lives - total: over 90,000.


Japan, 1826
Tsunami kills about 27,000.


Ireland, 1845 - 48
"Potato Famine" takes at least a million lives.


France, Germany, America, etc., 1870
approximately 500,000 lives lost as a result of smallpox.



China, 1876 - 1879
The deadliest drought in recorded history was in China between 1876 and 1879. Rivers were dry, so most crops and livestock died. There was no food production in a 1-million km2 area of 9 provinces. The drought caused the death of an estimated nine million people.




Java and Sumatra, 1883
Krakatoa, a small volcano on an uninhabited island between Sumatra and Java (Indonesia), erupted with such fury it could be heard in Australia nearly 5,000 kilometers away. The tsunami that followed took about 50,000 lives.


China, 1887
The worst flood in "modern history" happened in China in 1887. The Yellow River overflowed, causing the death of about 900,000 people. (Some reports say it was a million that parished.)


Japan, 1896
About 28,000 people lost their lives from a Tsunami
only survivor

Caribbean, 1902
Martinique, a small French colony in the Caribbean, has a volcano "Mont Pelee" which unleashed its fury and wiped out the town of St. Pierre. Only one survivor - pictured on right: a prisoner in a basement cell. (There's a good chance he got his life right with God before that day was over!) But there were actually two others who also survived. see their amazing stories Around 30,000 people were killed.


Italy, 1908
An earthquake of 7.2 magnitute and the tidal wave that resulted, destroyed several southernmost Italian cities and towns and approximately 123,000 people.


China, 1911
Yangtze River flood - approx: 100,000 deaths.


Italy, 1915
Avezzano, Italy - 7.5 earthyquake takes nearly 30,000 lives.

    China, 1920
    In the north China there was a drought that caused 20 million victims and took at least 500,00 lives.


    China, Gansu - 1920
    Gansu, China is hit with an earthquake measuring 8.6 and kills around 200,000 people.


    Japan, 1923
    A third of Tokyo is destroyed and much of Yokohama in an 8.3 earthquake which between 140,000 and 200,000 people.


    China, 1927
    An earthquake 7.9 - hit Nanshan City and took about 200,000 people.


    China, 1931
    A flood on the Changjiang River took at least 145,000 people (other estimates go over a million, but we have not confirmed that).


    China, 1932
    Another earthquake, this one northwest Gansu Province, killed about 70,000 people.



        China, 1935
        Another Yellow River flood "caused 27 counties inundated and 3.4 million victims".  How many actual lives were killed we don't know. If you have facts, let us hear from you




    China, 1933
    Another Changjiang River flood takes the lives of at least 140,000 people.


    Pakistan, 1935
    About 30,000 lost their lives in a 7.5 earthquake.


    Chile, 1939
    Some 28,000 people were killed from an 8.3 earthquake in Chile.


    China, 1939
    A flood takes about 200,000 lives.


    Turkey, 1939
    More than 32,000 lives were lost from a 7.9 quake in Erzican Province.


    China, 1942 - 1943
    A drought in the Henan province took the lives of more than a million people.


    Turkmenistan (USSR), 1948
    A 7.3 earthquake took over 110,000 lives.


    India, 1950
    Around 30,000 people lost their lives in a quake of 8.6 magnitude in Assam, India.


    World-wide, 1957
    At least a hundred thousand people (some reports say over a million) died from the "Asian Flu" - about 70,000 in the USA alone.



        China, 1958 - 61
        As many as 20 million people died in this famine.




    Peru, 1970
    A 7.9 earthquake and resulting landslides killed about  66,000 in Northern Peru.


    19 - Bangladesh, 1970
    In 1970, a cyclone and related floods killed about 500,000 people. With winds of up to 230 km/h, the cyclone crashed into the heavily populated coastal area of the Bay of Bengal, where several river deltas normally provide fertile land. The terrible winds produced massive waves, which wiped out many entire villages. Millions of people were left homeless in this country that is one of the most densely populated and one of the poorest in the world.

    Vietnam, 1971
    Red River flood flood leaves about 100,000 dead.

    China, Tangshan - 1976
    The worst earthquake damage in modern times was in northeast China in 1976. It was July 28 when a massive quake, measuring 8.3 on the Richter scale, shook the industrial mining city of Tangshan. Officially 255,000 people died, and another 164,000 were severely injured. But others (unofficial, but perhaps more accurate?) estimate that about 655,000 perished. Some ninety per cent of the buildings were destroyed. It took at least ten years and massive investment to rebuild the city.


    Iran, 1978
    An earthquake measuring 7.7 takes about 25,000 lives.


    [size=18pt]Africa, 1981 - 1984
    Rivers and lakes dried up from the drought that had incredible impact on twenty African nations. During one season about 20,000 were starving to death EACH MONTH.  150 million were facing starvation if help didn't come right away. People from around the world began to respond to this crisis - but for hundreds of thousands of people, it was too late. (If you have figures for this, please let us know. When combined with other relatively recent African famines, the fugure is well over 1,000,000)[/size]


    Colombia, 1985
    Volcano Nevado Del Ruiz claimed the lives of at least 25,000 - mostly from the mudflow which resulted from the volcanic eruption.


    Armenia, 1988
    An earthquake measuring 6.9 on the Richter scale devastated Armenia in 1988. At that time Armenia was a republic of the Soviet Union. The town of Spitak was destroyed and it took the lives of all of its residents. In Leninakan, Armenia's second largest city, eighty per cent of the buildings collapsed, and over 100,000 people perished there.


    Iran, 1990
    a 7.7 earthquake in northwest Iran killed at least 50,000 people.


    Bangladesh, 1991
    Flooding again took its toll on this nation. About  139,000 lost their lives.



    North Korea, 1995-98
    Over 3 million are said to have died from famine and floods in North Korea.


    West Africa, 1996
    About 25,000 loose their lives from a meningites outbreak.


    Iran, 2003
    Earthquake in Bam, Iran, officially kills 26,271 people.


    12 South Asian Nations, 2004 - 2005
    Earthquake of 9.0 and the resulting tsunami creates one of the world's worst disasters.  It does major damage to: Indonesia, India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Malaysia, Myanmar, the Maldives, Somalia, Tanzania, Seychelles, Bangladesh, and Andaman.  Deaths: Between 235,000 and 285,000.


    South Asia, 2005
    Earthquake, primarily affecting Pakistan, but also India and Afganistan.  Current figures: over 50,000 dead.