shadeyinka:


Omni-knowest is not the same as Omni-causeth

Freewill implying minimal interference of God in the affairs of man. Your parent at a point do not decide how you make your room in their house!

God really can't do much it seems. The bible says He is the creator of good and evil. He knows ALL things and can do ALL things. If he decides to not do anything about nothing then he CAUSED it. Simple!

Also, there is nothing free about freewill when he laid down ridiculous rules for us to follow or be condemned.

Robynwelo1:


God really can't do much it seems. The bible says He is the creator of good and evil. He knows ALL things and can do ALL things. If he decides to not do anything about nothing then he CAUSED it. Simple!

Also, there is nothing free about freewill when he laid down ridiculous rules for us to follow or be condemned.

Can there exist any form of civilization without rules?
Only animals live without rules.

If God was to interfere and control every action of man, then He cannot say we have free will.

The speedometer of your car has a max of about 220km/hr. You have a freewill to push your car up to that limit. However, the FRSC says that for your safety, do not exceed 100km/hr inspire of your freewill. You could be arrested and punished for violations inspire of your freewill.

So, God not constraining you against your will isn't a weakness but so that your freewill isn't constrained.

Laws will be rediculus only if you know how the other fundermemtal laws like Gravity, Magnetism, etc came to be.

Thanks for your clinical observations

shadeyinka:


Can there exist any form of civilization without rules?
Only animals live without rules.

If God was to interfere and control every action of man, then He cannot say we have free will.

The speedometer of your car has a max of about 220km/hr. You have a freewill to push your car up to that limit. However, the FRSC says that for your safety, do not exceed 100km/hr inspire of your freewill. You could be arrested and punished for violations inspire of your freewill

So, God not constraining you against your will isn't a weakness but so that your freewill isn't constrained.

Laws will be rediculus only if you know how the other fundermemtal laws like Gravity, Magnetism, etc came to be.

Thanks for your clinical observations

That did not make much sense since the FRSC did not build your car. Here is a better example, A parent stocked a child's room with sweets, books, pornography and guns, and then asks the child to pick only the sweets and books or face severe punishment. Now that's more like it. Freewill indeed!

Robynwelo1:


That did not make much sense since the FRSC did not build your car. Here is a better example, A parent stocked a child's room with sweets, books, pornography and guns, and then asks the child to pick only the sweets and books or face severe punishment. Now that's more like it. Freewill indeed!

This is critically misinformed as it paints a false picture of a God who is the source of good and evil.

There is a great difference between predetermination and predestination, while taking free will into full consideration.

Robynwelo1:


God really can't do much it seems. The bible says He is the creator of good and evil. He knows ALL things and can do ALL things. If he decides to not do anything about nothing then he CAUSED it. Simple!

Also, there is nothing free about freewill when he laid down ridiculous rules for us to follow or be condemned.

Point out were the Bible says God is the creator of good and evil. Some atheists here sound extremely misinformed!

ambassagod:


Point out were the Bible says God is the creator of good and evil. Some atheists here sound extremely misinformed!

I do not even need to point out anything. It's simple logic. God Created All things as said by Him. Tell me a new definition of All. Also tell me the part in the bible that referred to God creating only good things and who created evil.

Here is a passage I found

Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I
make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do
all these things.


Don't tell me he borrowed Evil from it's creator the devil.

While you are at it tell me who created Satan and Why God threw the evil creator, the devil down to earth to cause havoc upon his beloved children

Robynwelo1:


That did not make much sense since the FRSC did not build your car. Here is a better example, A parent stocked a child's room with sweets, books, pornography and guns, and then asks the child to pick only the sweets and books or face severe punishment. Now that's more like it. Freewill indeed!

That isnt a good analogy. A better one is this:

A parent gave his child a room. In the room were 2 220V (which could kill the child) sockets for which he could plug any of his electronics. But the child was given an instruction NOT to poke just anything into the socket else, he could be electrocuted.

If the child went ahead to get himself electrocuted by poking a nail into the socket. Your conclusion is that its the parents fault?

You can't escape from the truth no matter how you try.

Ask God why He made Gravity. Doesn't God know that the smaller gravity is, the easier things will be? You can run faster, jump higher, lift bigger things etc

You don't have any control of the rules and no argument can change its reality so also spiritual laws.

shadeyinka:


That isnt a good analogy. A better one is this:

A parent gave his child a room. In the room were 2 220V (which could kill the child) sockets for which he could plug any of his electronics. But the child was given an instruction NOT to poke just anything into the socket else, he could be electrocuted.

If the child went ahead to get himself electrocuted by poking a nail into the socket. Your conclusion is that its the parents fault?

You can't escape from the truth no matter how you try.

Ask God why He made Gravity. Doesn't God know that the smaller gravity is, the easier things will be? You can run faster, jump higher, lift bigger things etc

You don't have any control of the rules and no argument can change its reality so also spiritual laws.

Please don't make me laugh. Anything to defend your God. There are good things, there are also things with greater good and there are just plain bad things. He made ALL of them including Anger, Hatred, Jealousy, Ugliness, Lies, Diseases, Disaster.


This is what is wrong with your 'better' analogy. A parent gave a child a good thing(a socket) and he used it wrongly despite the advice. This would only be termed freewill if the child was not threatened to be punished if he does otherwise.

In the case of God here, he KNOWS that the child would use the socket wrongly and hurt himself, not only did he still place it in the child's room, he threatened to punish the child FOREVER if he used it wrongly. What a wonderful God.

Robynwelo1:


Please don't make me laugh. Anything to defend your God. There are good things, there are also things with greater good and there are just plain bad things. He made ALL of them including Anger, Hatred, Jealousy, Ugliness, Lies, Diseases, Disaster.


This is what is wrong with your 'better' analogy. A parent gave a child a good thing(a socket) and he used it wrongly despite the advice. This would only be termed freewill if the child was not threatened to be punished if he does otherwise.

In the case of God here, he KNOWS that the child would use the socket wrongly and hurt himself, not only did he still place it in the child's room, he threatened to punish the child FOREVER if he used it wrongly. What a wonderful God.

Indeed a wonderful God: and no ranting will change Him for your whims.

Your claims are like one asking why God didn't give you four legs instead of two. Aren't there advantages of four legs over two? LOL

The thrashing of a drowning man....

As an irreligious as you are why do you spend all your time in the religious section. Could it be that its just about hatred for the God who wouldn't fit into your mold OR an attempt to wish away the Truth of His reality?

You know the answer...but your attempt don't change a thing.

shadeyinka:

Indeed a wonderful God: and no ranting will change Him for your whims.

Your claims are like one asking why God didn't give you four legs instead of two. Aren't there advantages of four legs over two? LOL

The thrashing of a drowning man....

As an irreligious as you are why do you spend all your time in the religious section. Could it be that its just about hatred for the God who wouldn't fit into your mold OR an attempt to wish away the Truth of His reality?

You know the answer...but your attempt don't change a thing.

I am not only atheist, I am anti-theist just as most Christians are anti-islam and anti other religions. I cannot know the truth and hide it. I want the world to walk in truth and I do this not for salvation but for humanity.

Robynwelo1:


That did not make much sense since the FRSC did not build your car. Here is a better example, A parent stocked a child's room with sweets, books, pornography and guns, and then asks the child to pick only the sweets and books or face severe punishment. Now that's more like it. Freewill indeed!

that's not a good example either.. No responsible parent will do that. Rather the parent will monitor everything the child does, but as he grows he is at a liberty to choose

initiate:


that's not a good example either.. No responsible parent will do that. Rather the parent will monitor everything the child does, but as he grows he is at a liberty to choose

Thanks! No good God will do that. I was only giving an analogy on what Christians call freewill from God. He(just like the parents) created good(sweets, books) and EVIL(pornography and guns) in Man/on earth(the child's room). He threatens Man(the child) to pick ONLY the good ones OR be punished eternally. The only thing worse than this kind of 'freewill' is to be rooted to the ground like a plant.

There are two questions here;
Why would a good God create evil at all knowing Man/his creation, would choose that?
Is it really freewill if the only other option is burning in hell eternally?

Robynwelo1:


I am not only atheist, I am anti-theist just as most Christians are anti-islam and anti other religions. I cannot know the truth and hide it. I want the world to walk in truth and I do this not for salvation but for humanity.

Anti-theist indeed! SMH

What truth?
Which Source?
What Purpose?

You serve that whom you'll utterly hate but cannot leave because you sold off yourself to him. Your master was just like you ,an Anti-Theist

When you decide to be humble, your eyes will open.

shadeyinka:


Anti-theist indeed! SMH

What truth?
Which Source?
What Purpose?

You serve that whom you'll utterly hate but cannot leave because you sold off yourself to him. Your master was just like you ,an Anti-Theist

When you decide to be humble, your eyes will open.

How can I serve one whom I have never met and who I do not believe exists? You must be kidding with all these BS. Instead of refuting my claims against the freewill of your wonderful God, you are spewing condemnation. Why would your good God let the devil use me? I say a good God will take the evil creator, whom he created, very far away from his beloved children.

It is also not humility, rather stupidity at it's purest form. The ONLY thing that could stop me from not believing in your God is if he stops hiding, which he will never do because he never existed anyway. If that Jewish manuscript is the claim to your God, I can say it is you who needs an eye opener.

Robynwelo1:



How can I serve one whom I have never met and who I do not believe exists? You must be kidding with all these BS. Instead of refuting my claims against the freewill of your wonderful God, you are spewing condemnation. Why would your good God let the devil use me? I say a good God will take the evil creator, whom he created, very far away from his beloved children.

It is also not humility, rather stupidity at it's purest form. The ONLY thing that could stop me from not believing in your God is if he stops hiding, which he will never do because he never existed anyway. If that Jewish manuscript is the claim to your God, I can say it is you who needs an eye opener.

I couldn't help but smile at your wise ignorance.

A blind mans conclusion is that the sun doesn't exist! His argument, "Show me the Sun".

Even though he feels the warmth, his conclusion is that since fire can produce heat, it couldn't have been that the sun exists.

His second argument. " Has anyone touched the sun?".


Those who are not blind will just shade their heads in amazement as how the stubborn fly decides to follow the corpse into the grave.

You have never seen gravity, yet it acts on you.
You have never seen common cold virus, yet you break down once on a while.
Have you ever seen the code in your SmartPhone? Yet that same code turns the plastic, metal and glass into a powerful tool.

You don't have to see your master before you do his biddings. You are already doing it actively even without renumerations else you wouldn't be passionate about religious affair. But, you don't have a choice do you?

SMH!

shadeyinka:


I couldn't help but smile at your wise ignorance.

A blind mans conclusion is that the sun doesn't exist! His argument, "Show me the Sun".

Even though he feels the warmth, his conclusion is that since fire can produce heat, it couldn't have been that the sun exists.

His second argument. " Has anyone touched the sun?".


Those who are not blind will just shade their heads in amazement as how the stubborn fly decides to follow the corpse into the grave.

You have never seen gravity, yet it acts on you.
You have never seen common cold virus, yet you break down once on a while.
Have you ever seen the code in your SmartPhone? Yet that same code turns the plastic, metal and glass into a powerful tool.

You don't have to see your master before you do his biddings. You are already doing it actively even without renumerations else you wouldn't be passionate about religious affair. But, you don't have a choice do you?

SMH!

The Sun argument is bleach. A blind man will never ask to see or not true....thanks
Gravity has been proven empirically....Thanks again
The Virus one....Thanks again again
Humans made the smartphone...Thanks, but no thanks.

Let's look at your God. He breathes, He has a back, he speaks, he sees, he sits, He is a He. Why can't we see, hear or sit with him? Yeah right! it only happens in the Jewish folktale.

So without me seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling or feeling him, how does he expect me to believe he exists talk more worship him? I forgot he wrote a book...sorry!

Robynwelo1:


The Sun argument is bleach. A blind man will never ask to see or not true....thanks
Gravity has been proven empirically....Thanks again
The Virus one....Thanks again again
Humans made the smartphone...Thanks, but no thanks.

Let's look at your God. He breathes, He has a back, he speaks, he sees, he sits, He is a He. Why can't we see, hear or sit with him? Yeah right! it only happens in the Jewish folktale.

So without me seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling or feeling him, how does he expect me to believe he exists talk more worship him? I forgot he wrote a book...sorry!

On a serious note:
I strongly feel like your case is like you are looking for the computer code inside a computer. Unfortunately, your computer code isn't physical hence your quest is misdirected from the word go.

Let me ask you some logic questions:
1. Are you real or just an imaginary thought?
2. Is the Universe real?
3. Does the universe have a beginning?
4. Can we conclude that the universe came out of nothing?

If the answer to ALL these are YES, it imply that You came out of nothing!



If your answer is also Yes, what is the probability of God self existing?
A. Impossible 0
B. Remote. 0.001
C. Possible. 0.5
D. Plausible. 0.8

Think before you answer the MCQ like a freeborn and not a prisoner

shadeyinka:

On a serious note:
I strongly feel like your case is like you are looking for the computer code inside a computer. Unfortunately, your computer code isn't physical hence your quest is misdirected from the word go.

Let me ask you some logic questions:
1. Are you real or just an imaginary thought?
2. Is the Universe real?
3. Does the universe have a beginning?
4. Can we conclude that the universe came out of nothing?

If the answer to ALL these are YES, it imply that You came out of nothing!



If your answer is also Yes, what is the probability of God self existing?
A. Impossible 0
B. Remote. 0.001
C. Possible. 0.5
D. Plausible. 0.8

Think before you answer the MCQ like a freeborn and not a prisoner

I don't think you are understanding a thing here. You have changed the tone of the argument from freewill of a good God to if God exists. Even if you are able to prove a God exists, what makes you believe it is the one in the bible? what makes you think it wants us to worship it, did it really give rules? Is it really good? why would a good God create an imperfect world? How sure are you of life beyond death since you once never existed as you can cease to exist? Why would an invisible God punish me for eternity because I do not believe it exists?

Robynwelo1:


I don't think you are understanding a thing here. You have changed the tone of the argument from freewill of a good God to if God exists. Even if you are able to prove a God exists, what makes you believe it is the one in the bible? what makes you think it wants us to worship it, did it really give rules? Is it really good? why would a good God create an imperfect world? How sure are you of life beyond death since you once never existed as you can cease to exist? Why would an invisible God punish me for eternity because I do not believe it exists?

You evaded my questions because it leads only to one Obvious conclusion.
1. There is an Eternal self-Existing Non-Material Being who initiated (created) everything in the Universe.
2. Your Problem is that you don't understand this Eternal Self-Existing Being (He doesn't conform to your whims)
3. Rather than seeking to know Him, you chose the opposite; to "unknow" Him!
4. Unfortunately, in doing that you put yourself in servitude to the Slanderer.

Can one discuss the gift of freewill without the giver?
Your questions on the moral integrity of God is another thing entirely. It is something that makes sense only of God really exist.

So, answer the posted questions!

shadeyinka:


You evaded my questions because it leads only to one Obvious conclusion.
1. There is an Eternal self-Existing Non-Material Being who initiated (created) everything in the Universe.
2. Your Problem is that you don't understand this Eternal Self-Existing Being (He doesn't conform to your whims)
3. Rather than seeking to know Him, you chose the opposite; to "unknow" Him!
4. Unfortunately, in doing that you put yourself in servitude to the Slanderer.

Can one discuss the gift of freewill without the giver?
Your questions on the moral integrity of God is another thing entirely. It is something that makes sense only of God really exist.

So, answer the posted questions!

Moral integrity is in tune with what is being discussed here. Like I said even if there is a god, what makes you think it's the one in the Bible? How do you know this world was made by only one god? why would it or they punish me because I do not believe in them especially when the truth is not clear as day. Even If there was a god(creator) why should we worship it for the rest of our lives? why should we thank it for bringing us to this world we did not beg for? If your god decides to punish me because I do not believe in it, then I really do not know what to say.

Robynwelo1:



Moral integrity is in tune with what is being discussed here. Like I said even if there is a god, what makes you think it's the one in the Bible? How do you know this world was made by only one god? why would it or they punish me because I do not believe in them especially when the truth is not clear as day. Even If there was a god(creator) why should we worship it for the rest of our lives? why should we thank it for bringing us to this world we did not beg for? If your god decides to punish me because I do not believe in it, then I really do not know what to say.

I can see that yours is actually a defiance to God and it is understandable because you are already owned. Your use of "it" for a Him is a proof of a deliberate attempt to use your free will to slander God as your master. (Even Father Christmas is referred to as a him rather than it).

Do you think your action makes any sense?

If your problem is the God of Abraham state it plane and at least accord some reverence for Him through which you exist. Your problem isn't about worship but defiance: you have a problem.

Even though you refused to answer my question, I'll answer yours.

Why do humans plant flowers around their house?
Is it not for the pleasure of the planter?

If a flower refuse to bloom, why shouldn't it be thrown into the refuse dump?
Hell is Gods refuse dump!

The truth of God is in your heart: you reject it because God isn't like you wish Him to be.

Why not Go to Aso Rock and demand to see Oshinbajo. Screen, shout and rain insults....and then conclude "..since he wouldn't come out to see me, Oshinbajo doesn't exist".

Can you see the kind of tantrum you are exhibiting?

All the same, God still is waiting for you.

By the way, God didn't create us because of worship!
God created us for His own enjoyment.

An2elect2:
Freewillers have terrible logic.
If God specially loves everyone like they say how come some would end up in hell.

He saw some would go to hell why didn't He quit creating them. Or better still If the All powerful God loves every individual why won't He do everything possible to save them since He loves them and can save them.

I tell you, God does not love every individual like some people are saying in a bid to make God appear inoffensive. There were two brothers and God said He loved one and hated the other. And why? because they did something? That's a lie. They didn't do anything, even before they were born, their lives had been determined.

Freewillers stop embarrassing yourselves and bringing shame to Christianity. You are trying to help God with your free will ideology and make Him appear "good" to mankind and that's a terrible thing to do because you are taking away His glory.

God is the Potter and men the clay. He makes us the way He wants us. Some for honour others for destruction. This is very true and keeps all men at the mercy of God. Now, won't you despair of yourself and come to this God who takes no counsel from mortals? Who is under no obligation to save anyone? God cannot be termed wicked or the doer of evil because there is no law binding Him. He is sovereign and above the law. What will you do with Him?

Hate Him or love Him but don't you tell a lie about Him or make Him look like a man

Shadeyinka, what's your take on this?

shadeyinka:


I can see that yours is actually a defiance to God and it is understandable because you are already owned. Your use of "it" for a Him is a proof of a deliberate attempt to use your free will to slander God as your master. (Even Father Christmas is referred to as a him rather than it).

Do you think your action makes any sense?

If your problem is the God of Abraham state it plane and at least accord some reverence for Him through which you exist. Your problem isn't about worship but defiance: you have a problem.

Even though you refused to answer my question, I'll answer yours.

Why do humans plant flowers around their house?
Is it not for the pleasure of the planter?

If a flower refuse to bloom, why shouldn't it be thrown into the refuse dump?
Hell is Gods refuse dump!

The truth of God is in your heart: you reject it because God isn't like you wish Him to be.

Why not Go to Aso Rock and demand to see Oshinbajo. Screen, shout and rain insults....and then conclude "..since he wouldn't come out to see me, Oshinbajo doesn't exist".

Can you see the kind of tantrum you are exhibiting?

All the same, God still is waiting for you.

By the way, God didn't create us because of worship!
God created us for His own enjoyment.

Not to be rude but none of your illustrations has ever made sense. The flower is not in control of it's growth. A planter that supposedly plants should know the conditions that could make a plant grow especially if he wants to see it grow. A planter will NOT plant when he knows the plant will not grow.
You are only exposing your God as a careless, wicked and dumb one. For a God who supposedly knows its plants end from the beginning, it will not plant anything that will not grow, worse of all throw it in the pit because it didn't... isn't that its fault?

As for the Osibanjo....sis get with times we are in the camera age.

shadeyinka:


That isnt a good analogy. A better one is this:

A parent gave his child a room. In the room were 2 220V (which could kill the child) sockets for which he could plug any of his electronics. But the child was given an instruction NOT to poke just anything into the socket else, he could be electrocuted.

If the child went ahead to get himself electrocuted by poking a nail into the socket. Your conclusion is that its the parents fault?

You can't escape from the truth no matter how you try.

Ask God why He made Gravity. Doesn't God know that the smaller gravity is, the easier things will be? You can run faster, jump higher, lift bigger things etc

You don't have any control of the rules and no argument can change its reality so also spiritual laws.

A good parent wouldn't even put a child where 220kv socket is... just what kind f parent is your God

shadeyinka:


If the child went ahead to get himself electrocuted by poking a nail into the socket. Your conclusion is that its the parents fault?

Yes he should be blamed for Putin the child there knowing what children are capable of.

Why are u deliberately being dishonest in this matter?

frank317:


A good parent wouldn't even put a child where 220kv socket is... just what kind f parent is your God

I can imagine why your academic performance in school was so low.

Do you read at all? Verbal Diarrhea Syndrome

220 kV? SMH

Robynwelo1:


Not to be rude but none of your illustrations has ever made sense. The flower is not in control of it's growth. A planter that supposedly plants should know the conditions that could make a plant grow especially if he wants to see it grow. A planter will NOT plant when he knows the plant will not grow.
You are only exposing your God as a careless, wicked and dumb one. For a God who supposedly knows its plants end from the beginning, it will not plant anything that will not grow, worse of all throw it in the pit because it didn't... isn't that its fault?

As for the Osibanjo....sis get with times we are in the camera age.

Your internal Content is Dark. Full of Darkness!
Your frustrations and displeasure shouldn't be directed at me.

Wait till you see the God you are angry with then make your case! Dont use NL as an avenue to show how rude and defiant you can be.

Interestingly,
if God doesn't exist, you will be a fool who wastes all her productive lifetime fighting a none existent "Father Christmas"
if God exists, you can choose to be a spoke person for the rebellious ones

I REST MY CASE!

shadeyinka:


I can see that yours is actually a defiance to God and it is understandable because you are already owned. Your use of "it" for a Him is a proof of a deliberate attempt to use your free will to slander God as your master. (Even Father Christmas is referred to as a him rather than it).

Do you think your action makes any sense?

If your problem is the God of Abraham state it plane and at least accord some reverence for Him through which you exist. Your problem isn't about worship but defiance: you have a problem.

Even though you refused to answer my question, I'll answer yours.

Why do humans plant flowers around their house?
Is it not for the pleasure of the planter?

If a flower refuse to bloom, why shouldn't it be thrown into the refuse dump?
Hell is Gods refuse dump!

The truth of God is in your heart: you reject it because God isn't like you wish Him to be.

Why not Go to Aso Rock and demand to see Oshinbajo. Screen, shout and rain insults....and then conclude "..since he wouldn't come out to see me, Oshinbajo doesn't exist".

Can you see the kind of tantrum you are exhibiting?

All the same, God still is waiting for you.

By the way, God didn't create us because of worship!
God created us for His own enjoyment.

What flower refuses to bloom? You plant a seed in an unfavorable condition and it does not grow or bloom you say it refuses to bloom. This is how u misplace priorities in the bid to defend a non existent God.

Now he goes to compare his God with osibanjo who we practically elected. Your God has not given humans a single reason to be certain he exists. Instead he has left humans making ridiculous assumptions and creating thousands of God's in their head. Comparing Osibanjo to your God is a big insult to the vice president.

shadeyinka:


I can imagine why your academic performance in school was so low.

Do you read at all? Verbal Diarrhea Syndrome

220 kV? SMH

You saw kv and your mind suddenly goes blind on how u have been clutching on weak straws to defend your God?

shadeyinka:


Your internal Content is Dark. Full of Darkness!
Your frustrations and displeasure shouldn't be directed at me.

Wait till you see the God you are angry with then make your case! Dont use NL as an avenue to show how rude and defiant you can be.

Interestingly,
if God doesn't exist, you will be a fool who wastes all her productive lifetime fighting a none existent "Father Christmas"
if God exists, you can choose to be a spoke person for the rebellious ones

I REST MY CASE!

Oga stop changing topic. Your flower analogy shows how shallots you think. You have ended you showing your God to be careless and unreasonable.

He is likened to a farmer who plants a seed under a shade in an infertile soil and then blames the seed for not blooming. People are born to hudlum parents and if they end up becoming criminals, all your God quickly does for a solution is to wait for them to destroy innocent lives and throw them hell after they are dead.
So much for foreknowledge.
Your God has foreknowledge abilities yet this ability is useless to him. Smh.

We can argue this all day long but this is the question, see yourself as a potter,can you ever wrong the clay?........There is no unrighteousness with God but what if God willing to show his wrath endures with long suffering(their blasphemies,hatred,unrighteousness,evil,wickedness....) the vessels prepared for the day of His wrath........indeed God has made everything for Himself,vessels unto honour reserved for His glory and vessels unto dishonour,for His wrath,that's the sovereign God,who's made everything for His pleasure. Woe unto the man who strives with His maker,or can a man say to His father,why have you given birth to me?