@ Bari_kade

Re the command for Adam to keep the sabbath. You won't find a command as such, but it is implied. Setting aside a day that is holy automatically implies rest. Other NT verses give support to this rest as was exemplified by God Himself.

The whole matter becomes that much clearer when you understand the purpose of the sabbath. From the beginning it was given for the purpose of rest from man's labour. God gave mankind 6 days in which to do work, but it was expected of him to rest and re-create in holy communion and reflection. That day was dedicated to spiritual reflection, which was not to be distracted with mundane matters.

What was implied in Genesis 2 is explained in Mark 2:27, That is why the scripture says, "line upon line, " Hence I believe that Jesus was not necesssarily dealing with the Jewish sabbath in his discourse, but hinted at the general purpose of the sabbath as it related to all of mankind, and that is why He used the phrase "man", or in this case mankind, rather than the jews.

Bear in mind that the only reason why Jesus brought up the sabbath issue with the jewish leaders, was simply because they were twisting its true purpose. Jesus saught that opportunity to clear up the issue that the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath. in other words, the sabbath was not intended to be a burden to mankind, but was to be a blessing, and that is why it was made for mankind, and not only for the jews.

The context is clear that at all times the jewish leaders saught a reason to condemn Christ. Whatever good works that Christ did on the sabbath would have been a problem to them just the same.

As to your point that it was a jewish population He addressed, makes no difference. The sabbath was made before the Old and New covenant, and is not confined to just the jews.

Jesus, and the apostles were jews and were accustomed to keeping the sabbath, both inside the temples, and outside the temples where gentile and jewish christians worshipped. Bear in mind that it was from the temples that Paul hitherto Saul, persecuted those same christians who worshipped therein. (see Acts 9:1-2)

You are saying that Paul only encountered the sabbath because he had to go in the temples to preach or teach. The scriptures say the opposite.

Jesus' custom was to keep the sabbath, "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read." Luke 4:16

The apostle Paul kept the sabbath also, And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures." Acts 17:2.

Bear in mind that as Paul travelled he preached. In this instance he stayed in that area and preached on three different sabbaths to the people. There is no record of paul preaching to a church on Sunday as a custom. The argument that is given is that Paul just happened to be preaching to the people because they were jews, and that they worshipped on the sabbath, leaving Paul no recource but to be in those temples.

Paul and his entourage kept the sabbath under the open canopy of heaven, "And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither." Acts 16:13.

So even in nature Paul and his friends kept the sabbath. Ever wondered why the sabbath keeps coming up? If this were another day would the bible have stressed it? Besides, there is still no indication of Paul even remotely addresssing the supposedly new Lord's day. Isn't it strange that something as important as that was not emphasised in the NT?


"Paul and his company , went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down." Acts 13:13, 14.

Still no mention of Sunday.

"And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks." Acts 18:4.


"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath." "And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God." Acts 13:42, 44

This text makes it absolutely clear that the gentiles begged Paul to come back with the same message the next sabbath. These gentles were perhaps new converts. Those words were definitely not about keeping Sunday I'd imagine, would they?

Bari_kade while you ask me to provide a direct scriptural command from Genesis for Adam to have kept God's sabbath, I now ask you to provide a scriptural command for keeping Sunday.

There is no Scriptural command to keep sunday because there is no longer any need to keep any day.

I wonder. Perharps Paul went to synagogue on the sabbath because he knew there will be a large crowd there. Notice he and other disciples also went to the synagogue on other days.

Acts 17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart

Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ

@ Lafile

There is no Scriptural command to keep sunday because there is no longer any need to keep any day.

I wonder. Perharps Paul went to synagogue on the sabbath because he knew there will be a large crowd there. Notice he and other disciples also went to the synagogue on other days.

Acts 17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart

Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ

All those texts don't necessarily speak to the issue as to whether God's sabbath has been abolished, or that Sunday is now the Lord's day.

The point I have chosen to address right through this thread is that God's church has continued the teachings and practises of Christ, and the apostles right down through the centuries. Anyone speanding time with scriptures, and doing a thorough reading and study, cannot honestly conclude that during the initiation of the New Covenant, that Sunday was now to represent that covenant.

Since no such command, via Christ or His apostles, can be found to support the idea of Sunday being used to commemorate Christ's resurrection and also the ratification of the new covenant, then on what basis can they continue to repeat that blatant lie.

Hence the question still lingers: is God's holy sabbath still relevant for mankind as Jesus alluded to in Mark 2:27? If it is, and there is reason to believe so, then the onus rests with God's people to highlight that reality. We contend that none of God's 10 commandments have been abolished at least not by a "jot or tittle untill all have been fulfilled"

What we see in scriptures, and history, is a continuation of sabbath observance by the apostles and church fathers even up to the early part of the 4th century. During the persecution from Rome, a tendency was being developed for christians to dissociate themselves from the Jews, and instead of the usual sabbath services, they resorted to meeting on another day, ie Sunday, which incidentally was decreed by Constantine as a day as rest in AD321.

@Bobbyaf,

I'm enjoying the calm in our exchanges; and perhaps, just perhaps, you might help yourself (and other readers) in this discussion if we simply follow the reasoning in Scripture than what is perculiar to any denomination.

Bobbyaf:

Re the command for Adam to keep the sabbath. You won't find a command as such, but it is implied. Setting aside a day that is holy automatically implies rest. Other NT verses give support to this rest as was exemplified by God Himself.

I'm glad you can admit that not even you can find "a command as such" concerning Adam keeping the Sabbath! And what is not expressing stated in Adam's case as a Law/command is no where implied. If other NT verses speak on the subject, we still need to understand the context of such texts where the Sabbath is treated.

Bobbyaf:

The whole matter becomes that much clearer when you understand the purpose of the sabbath. From the beginning it was given for the purpose of rest from man's labour. God gave mankind 6 days in which to do work, but it was expected of him to rest and re-create in holy communion and reflection. That day was dedicated to spiritual reflection, which was not to be distracted with mundane matters.

Interesting how you can draw this conclusion when you know that God did not command Adam anywhere to keep the Sabbath. Just one question here: [#1] If God ever gave a law of Sabbath keeping to Adam, what provisions were made to him about HOW he was to observe it?

Bobbyaf:

What was implied in Genesis 2 is explained in Mark 2:27, That is why the scripture says, "line upon line, " Hence I believe that Jesus was not necesssarily dealing with the Jewish sabbath in his discourse, but hinted at the general purpose of the sabbath as it related to all of mankind, and that is why He used the phrase "man", or in this case mankind, rather than the jews.

This takes us back to what has already been discussed. Read the whole context of Mark 2:27 (from verse 23 to 28 inclusive) and compare with the synoptic Gospels. It is very clear that the Lord Jesus did not refer to Genesis in His response, but rather to the Law given to the Jews. Let's compare with the synoptic Gospels - Matthew 12:1-8 and Luke 6:1-5.

It is interesting that when the Lord Jesus answered the same query of the Jews in Matthew 12, He specifically made clear the basis of His answer was not from Genesis, but rather from the Law of Moses: "Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?" (verse 5). Did you catch that - the Lord Jesus specifically mentioned nothing about Genesis, but directed His enquirers to what was written in the Law!

Whenever the Lord Jesus wanted to make a statement based on Genesis, He clearly indicated this - and any reader can readily see the reference. For example, when dealing with the question of divorce, the Jews based their question on the law of Moses (as often they did). Hear them: ". . .Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?" And His answer? "He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so" (Matt. 19:7-8 ). The Lord Jesus made it crystal clear on what basis He established His answers, and anyone can see He took them back to Genesis.

Compare the above with Mark 10:1-9 concerning the same incident. The first thing the Lord Jesus asked the Pharisees was: "What did Moses command you?" (vs. 3). After they had stated their case on the Mosaic Law in vs. 4 (compare with Deut. 24:1-4), the Lord then took them back to Genesis in saying: "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female" (vs. 6).

I have only just shared this far with you on how to read things contextually and not make "implied" inferences where you have no text to support them. The point is that, you cannot make Mark 2:27 say or imply what it does not, because the Jews understood there that the Lord Jesus was basing His answer on the Mosaic Law, and not on a text in Genesis for Adam that is no where to be found! That is why you cannot find one verse that states a Sabbath-keeping Law for Adam - as you have earlier confirmed in your response.

Bobbyaf:

Bear in mind that the only reason why Jesus brought up the sabbath issue with the jewish leaders, was simply because they were twisting its true purpose. Jesus saught that opportunity to clear up the issue that the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath. in other words, the sabbath was not intended to be a burden to mankind, but was to be a blessing, and that is why it was made for mankind, and not only for the jews.

First, please read the context of any verse you discuss in the Bible. Jesus did not bring up the sabbath issue with the Jewish leaders; rather, they brought up the issue to Him! It is interesting, though, that you attempted to relate the spiritual purpose of the Sabbath without actually answering my questions earlier offered. Here they are again, and I add a 4th based on your above:

Besides, when taken separately, what would be the significance of each of the clauses in Mark 2:27 -

              [#2] the Sabbath was made for man
              [#3] man was made for the Sabbath
              [#4] man was not made for the Sabbath

. . . and the 4th added question:

              [#5] how was the Sabbath to be kept according the its specific commandment?

That brings the total number of questions so far to 5, and I notice you're not very keen on offering answers to questions. Do I assume that you can't find answers to them, or that you simply would not like to answer them?

Bobbyaf:

The context is clear that at all times the jewish leaders saught a reason to condemn Christ. Whatever good works that Christ did on the sabbath would have been a problem to them just the same.

Interesting that you mention "good works that Christ did on the sabbath!" The question that needs answered here by you is: what did the Law of the Sabbath say about works in the OT?

Bobbyaf:

As to your point that it was a jewish population He addressed, makes no difference. The sabbath was made before the Old and New covenant, and is not confined to just the jews.

Granted. I have asked you to find me that very Sabbath command specifically instituted as a Law "before the Old and New covenant". It is not enough to assume it is "implied" - please provide the very text in the OT that stipulates it as a command/law before Exodus.

Bobbyaf:

Jesus, and the apostles were jews and were accustomed to keeping the sabbath, both inside the temples, and outside the temples where gentile and jewish christians worshipped. Bear in mind that it was from the temples that Paul hitherto Saul, persecuted those same christians who worshipped therein. (see Acts 9:1-2)

Let's not mix up issues here. I would like to know, at the risk of repeating this same question: what is the specific stipulation(s) concerning HOW the Sabbath should be kept. I hope you understand that Adam had no Temples for worship; so please show me HOW Adam was commanded to keep the Sabbath!

Second, before you assume that the Lord Jesus kept the Sabbath, again please provide how the Sabbath was to be kept/observed. It is of little relevance (if at all) that Christians were being persecuted in the temples.

Bobbyaf:

You are saying that Paul only encountered the sabbath because he had to go in the temples to preach or teach. The scriptures say the opposite.

I said no such thing! Read it again.

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

Jesus' custom was to keep the sabbath, "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read." Luke 4:16

"As His custom was" - what was His custom: going into the synagogue, or keeping the Sabbath? Do not mix up the two. Jesus also did several other things on the Sabbath: (1). He went into the corn field with His disciples and they plucked corn and rubbed them in their hands - Luke 6:1; (2). He healed the sick and asked the healed man to carry his bed on the Sabbath - John 5:8-11. Now, can I ask you if it was also His custom to do these things on the Sabbath day in order to prove that He was keeping it? Was it Jesus' custom to keep the Sabbath by going through the corn fields and asking a man to carry his bed - just to prove that He kept the Sabbath?

The answer is obvious. He did not come to impose the law of the Sabbath on those whom He came to call and save - and for this reason, He was often seen doing the very things that were not stipulated as part of keeping the Sabbath. In John 5:18 and 9:16, the Jews may have many problems, but they recognised that Jesus was not keeping the Sabbath in consonance with the stipulations of the Mosaic Law. The fact that He declared who He was - Lord of the Sabbath - explains His actions.

This is why I keep asking, if you think anywhere you see "Sabbath" in the NT, it is to be assumed that Jesus and the apostles were observing the Sabbath, then you really will miss the point - and I presume that is even more the reason why you haven't been able to answer my questions in the several rejoinders you posted.

Bobbyaf:

The apostle Paul kept the sabbath also, And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures." Acts 17:2.

I beg you, Bobbyaf, just as above - read the context of verses you quote! What was Paul doing in the synagogue of the Jews on the Sabbath days - keeping the sabbath, or reasoning with the Jews?? If this is difficult for you, then solve the problem by simply asking these questions:

(a) HOW did the Scripture command that the Sabbath be kept or observed?
(b) who were the Jews with whom Paul was reasoning out of the Scriptures in Acts 17:1-2 - Christians or Judaics?

If you think paul was speaking to a "Christian" crowd in those texts, then your dilemma will be verse 4 - where some of them "some of them believed", which tells us that Paul was speaking to non-Christians and persuading them to believe in Jesus Christ so that they might be saved (carefully read verses 3-4 again). How could he have been reasoning with the Jews to persuade them to be saved if they were already Christians?

Bobbyaf:

Bear in mind that as Paul travelled he preached. In this instance he stayed in that area and preached on three different sabbaths to the people. There is no record of paul preaching to a church on Sunday as a custom. The argument that is given is that Paul just happened to be preaching to the people because they were jews, and that they worshipped on the sabbath, leaving Paul no recource but to be in those temples.

As explained above, was Paul preaching to Christians in those temples?? Do you read verses out of context??

Bobbyaf:

Paul and his entourage kept the sabbath under the open canopy of heaven, "And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither." Acts 16:13.

Bobbyaf, was Paul and his entourage keeping the sabbath with Christians in Acts 16:13?? If that were the case, are you trying to say that Lydia was already a Christian? If she was already a Christian, then it would be a very queer interpretation you have for verse 15 where it says she was baptized only after the Lord had opened her heart to attend to Paul's preaching! The Bible did not refer to those women in Acts 16:13 as "Christians" before Paul preached to them; so I urge that you carefully read verses contextually before you draw conclusions.

Bobbyaf:

So even in nature Paul and his friends kept the sabbath. Ever wondered why the sabbath keeps coming up? If this were another day would the bible have stressed it? Besides, there is still no indication of Paul even remotely addresssing the supposedly new Lord's day. Isn't it strange that something as important as that was not emphasised in the NT?

The emphasis of the sabbath being mentioned in the NT is missed by many who fail to see to whom it applied. Secondly, you must have missed the subject of Paul addressing the Corinthians on what day they gathered for worship. I agree with lafile's post who stated that there was NT command to keep Sunday as a worship day; and I might add that any such command to keep Saturday does not exist in the NT!

Bobbyaf:

"Paul and his company , went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down." Acts 13:13, 14.
Still no mention of Sunday.
"And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks." Acts 18:4.

As above, read the text in their contexts - were those Jews already Christians in Acts 13:13-14 and 18:4? If they were already Christians in those instances, then what was the need of persuading "Christians" of what they already knew for themselves - that Jesus is the Christ who alone saves?? In Acts 18:8, we read the result of Paul's preaching to these Jews who were not as yet Christians in verse 4 that you quoted: "And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized." If these were already Christians in verse 4, are we to assume that in your summation, they were some queer type of "Christians" who did not believe and were not baptized until after Paul's preaching? Please, please, and please. . . read the contexts before drawing conclusions you can't defend.

Bobbyaf:

"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath." "And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God." Acts 13:42, 44

As above - were these people already CHRISTIANS?? How come you always stop in verse 44 and fail to see the results in verse 48?? Here: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." They were not Christians in verse 44; but after receiving the word and believing in verse 48!

Bobbyaf:

This text makes it absolutely clear that the gentiles begged Paul to come back with the same message the next sabbath. These gentles were perhaps new converts. Those words were definitely not about keeping Sunday I'd imagine, would they?

Neither were they about keeping sabbath! Now it is interesting that you intoned that these gentiles were "perhaps new converts"! I assure that the Word of God does not rest on probability and guesses; and I've explained the case of these Gentiles just above!

Bobbyaf:

Bari_kade while you ask me to provide a direct scriptural command from Genesis for Adam to have kept God's sabbath, I now ask you to provide a scriptural command for keeping Sunday.

Interestingly enough, you failed to provide a direct command for Adam in the entire Bible. As for Sunday (commonly called 'the first day of the week'), I don't remember ever stating that there was a direct command for any particular day: at least, I made clear that lafile's post has my vote on that. However, please see how the Bible indicated when Christians gathered for Christian worship in the following:

Acts. 20:7 - "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

I Cor. 16:2 - "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

Regards.

all these long things u lot keep typing
there's no one true church
ure pastor can preach all he wants, dat doesnt mean ure definitely a believer.
it's wot's in ur heart that counts
we'll c for ourselves on d last day as all churches claim monopoly of the truth especially, sects!

kellorah:

all these long things u lot keep typing
there's no one true church
ure pastor can preach all he wants, that doesnt mean ure definitely a believer.
it's wot's in your heart that counts
we'll c for ourselves on d last day as all churches claim monopoly of the truth especially, sects!

No wahala. No one is obliged to read what they don't want to.

@bari_kade,

Enjoyed your entries, especially on the Sabbath.

@ bari_kade

Jesus' custom was to keep the sabbath, "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read." Luke 4:16

"As His custom was" - what was His custom: going into the synagogue, or keeping the Sabbath? Do not mix up the two. Jesus also did several other things on the Sabbath: (1). He went into the corn field with His disciples and they plucked corn and rubbed them in their hands - Luke 6:1; (2). He healed the sick and asked the healed man to carry his bed on the Sabbath - John 5:8-11. Now, can I ask you if it was also His custom to do these things on the Sabbath day in order to prove that He was keeping it? Was it Jesus' custom to keep the Sabbath by going through the corn fields and asking a man to carry his bed - just to prove that He kept the Sabbath?

I don't have to mix up Christ's keeping the sabbath, which was a given, with He going into the synagogue, since both actions are connected. Christ and His disciples walked through the cornfields, but He certainly didn't tell them to pick the ears of the corn. They did it for whatever reason, but Christ was accused by the jewish leaders. As to whether Christ did good works on the sabbath so as to prove He kept it is pointless to whether the sabbath was kept by Him. The fact is there is nothing that He did on the day that would have been considered worthy of sabbath breaking, since there is no law against doing good on the sabbath.

One doesn't have to prove that Christ or His disciples kept the sabbath. It was a given that they did.

The answer is obvious. He did not come to impose the law of the Sabbath on those whom He came to call and save - and for this reason, He was often seen doing the very things that were not stipulated as part of keeping the Sabbath.

He never had to impose the sabbath because it was already being kept, even if those who kept it didn't fully understand the spiritual implications of it. The fact is by the time Christ came the jewish leaders had obscured the true meaning of God's law by their traditions. So, when Christ came part of His job was to bring back the true purpose of the sabbath as he did in one occasion in Mark 2:27. You may have noticed that at no time did Christ denounce the sabbath, but made sure to correct any mis-representation concerning it.

In John 5:18 and 9:16, the Jews may have many problems, but they recognised that Jesus was not keeping the Sabbath in consonance with the stipulations of the Mosaic Law. The fact that He declared who He was - Lord of the Sabbath - explains His actions.

Thats becasue they had lost the true meaning of what is involved with sabbath keeping. Listen to what Jesus said of their tradition and the ensuing results;

Matthew 23:23
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Mark 3:4
Then He said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they kept silent.

What do you gather from the above texts? Christ recognised the importance of the law as well as the sabbath. He also recognised what it meant to those mistaken leaders as well. Instaed of denouncing the sabbath, He admonished them to at least see part of the overall purpose of the institution, which apart from resting from mundane matters, also involves doing good as well.

This is why I keep asking, if you think anywhere you see "Sabbath" in the NT, it is to be assumed that Jesus and the apostles were observing the Sabbath, then you really will miss the point - and I presume that is even more the reason why you haven't been able to answer my questions in the several rejoinders you posted.

Yes I believe so. If Jesus or Paul knew that the sabbath was no longer relevant, they would have made it clear. It was Jesus who said the following in Matthew 5: 18,19, 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So here we see that Christ had to be faithful as an exemplar, in both keeping the law, as well as admonish all to follow suit untill all be fulfilled. Hence because the sabbath is a central part of the 10 commandments I have reason to believe that He kept it and gave no authority to any of His disciples to annul any. Likewise Paul had to have kept the sabbath since there was no reason for him not to.

,

I beg you, Bobbyaf, just as above - read the context of verses you quote! What was Paul doing in the synagogue of the Jews on the Sabbath days - keeping the sabbath, or reasoning with the Jews?? If this is difficult for you, then solve the problem by simply asking these questions:

And I beg you to do likewise.

(a) HOW did the Scripture command that the Sabbath be kept or observed?

I am not aware that they did. God's law of 10 commandments already did that initially.

(b) who were the Jews with whom Paul was reasoning out of the Scriptures in Acts 17:1-2 - Christians or Judaics?

A mixture!

If you think paul was speaking to a "Christian" crowd in those texts, then your dilemma will be verse 4 - where some of them "some of them believed", which tells us that Paul was speaking to non-Christians and persuading them to believe in Jesus Christ so that they might be saved (carefully read verses 3-4 again). How could he have been reasoning with the Jews to persuade them to be saved if they were already Christians?

There were different categories of christians in the temples. Some new converts were being misled by some jewish christians, albeit misled ones, who insisted on their keeping Moses' law of circumcision. Paul on his journey simply saught to enlighten them on the real essence of salvation. The Pauline letters remind us of that reality.

,

First, please read the context of any verse you discuss in the Bible. Jesus did not bring up the sabbath issue with the Jewish leaders; rather, they brought up the issue to Him!

Well, put it this way He cleared up the issue with them, just lik ehow I am clearing it up with you now.

It is interesting, though, that you attempted to relate the spiritual purpose of the Sabbath without actually answering my questions earlier offered. Here they are again, and I add a 4th based on your above:

Even though I addressed them all I will again.

Besides, when taken separately, what would be the significance of each of the clauses in Mark 2:27 -

[#2] the Sabbath was made for man
[#3] man was made for the Sabbath
[#4] man was not made for the Sabbath

"The sabbath was made for man" clause signifies that the sabbath was made for man's benefit. It was a day for man to reflect on God's act of creatorship, without having to think about mundane matters. Such resting provided relaxation and re-creation.

I cannot address # 3 because there is no such clause.

The significance of clause 4 has to do with the fact that man was not made after the sabbath, but before it was instituted. Adam was made on the 6th day, while the sabbath was made on the 7th day. The expression "made for" suggest purpose. Anything that is made for somehing else must have a purpose. In other words one cannot put the cart before the horse, and that is exactly what Christ had in mind when He clarified matters with those misled jewish leaders. They made the sabbath more important than men's needs in the act of keeping it. Sabbath keeping must never be done at the expense of neglecting to do good to mankind, as well as animals. Man cannot serve the sabbath, but the sabbath was made to serve the needs of all mankind according to Jesus.

. . . and the 4th added question:

[#5] how was the Sabbath to be kept according the its specific commandment?

The essence of the sabbath is resting from one's own labour or work. The 4th commandment makes it clear. It also has come to symbolise our rest from sin. When a person accepts Jesus and enters into that spiritual rest, such a person will also rest according to the commandment. Salvation leads to obedience to God's set of instructions. We must trust as well as obey. We must have faith as well as do good works. We "must let our lights so shine so that men will see our good works and be led to glorify the Father, "

,

Interestingly enough, you failed to provide a direct command for Adam in the entire Bible.

How could I when there was none! But as I said Mark 2:27 took care of that, unless of course Adam wasn't a man!

As for Sunday (commonly called 'the first day of the week'), I don't remember ever stating that there was a direct command for any particular day: at least, I made clear that lafile's post has my vote on that.

Good! At least we are getting somewhere!

However, please see how the Bible indicated when Christians gathered for Christian worship in the following:

Are you 100% certain about these texts? I can assure you these texts won't do justice to your notion. Let me explain starting with 1 Cor. 16:2

1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Paul writes to the Corinthians that he is requesting money be saved for distribution to the needy saints in Jerusalem (v. 3). Paul is recommending that each person, on the first day of the week, lay aside and save by themselves a proportional amount of their income for the purpose of this offering. In that way, when Paul arrives the necessary funds will be already set aside and available.

1 Cor 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

1 Cor 16:4 And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

Upon meeting with Paul after his arrival at Corinth, the money that had been saved up would be given to the designated courier and taken to Jerusalem by Paul's direction. Most notably, Paul is not instructing the Corinthians to observe Sunday, or even implying that funds are to be collected at a Sunday worship service. He is saying that on the first day of the week each person is to allocate and set aside in store (save) a portion of their funds. There is no indication that the individual even need to leave home to do this, but rather that the entire process was to be done at home.

It is also clear from the book of Acts, that Paul kept only the Sabbath day in Corinth, and not Sunday:

Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Acts 18:11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

That's 72 Sabbaths that Paul preached in Corinth. There can be no question that Paul raised up a Sabbath keeping church in Corinth, a church that knew nothing of observing Sunday as a holy day. So, while many will point to 1 Corinthians 16:2 in the light of Tradition, and say that it refers to passing the collection plate during a Sunday service, in context, that is simply not indicated by the text.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Clearly the disciples are meeting on Sunday, the first day of the week. It might even be presumed by some that by "breaking bread" they celebrated the Lord's supper that Sunday. The question that needs to be asked though, is why were the disciples assembled on this day? What reason brought them together? In context, it will be seen that Paul was departing the next day on his journey to Jerusalem to be present during the Pentecost festival (v. 16). This gathering was a farewell assembly with Paul, the last day the people at Troas could meet with him, and that is why it lasted into the early morning hours. In fact Paul talked with them all through the night and then left in the morning at sunrise (v. 11).

Did Paul preach? Yes, without doubt, as verse 7 makes clear. Did they celebrate the Lord's supper? Perhaps, yet even if they did, as some maintain, there is no indication that that Sunday, or any Sunday, was being observed as a newly instituted weekly holy day to commemorate the resurrection. The breaking of bread did not indicate a special day of worship, or even that the Lord's supper was being celebrated, as scripture tells us they met daily and broke bread from house to house:

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

This seems to indicate nothing more than eating what are called agape meals of fellowship, which are not necessarily connected with a formal worship service involving partaking in communion.

This first day in question was simply a Saturday night that was to the Jews the first day of the week. Jewish time reckoning was totally different than ours today. According to scriptures a day begins at sunset and ends at sunset., and not at 12am. Since the sabbath ended at sunset, then the dark portion of the day would automatically become Sunday which would have been the dark portion. This explains why Paul preached until sunrise of the same Sunday which we would refer to as Sunday morning.

There is noting definitive about those two texts. Sorry bari_kade you'll have to do better than accuse me of not being contextual, yet taking these very same texts way off base.

@Bobbyaf,

Your latest response only confirms this: you have a problem reading the Bible in context and still have no basis for most of your beliefs.

1. You still had no text where God commanded Adam to keep the Sabbath. Even when pointed to the context in Mark 2:27, you still have been unable to make a reference to a verse in Genesis or in the OT where Jesus inferred that Adam was commanded by God to keep the Sabbath. If it was not enough for you to see the context by comparing Mark 2:27 with the parallel verses in Matthew 12 (especially vs. 5), then I take it you're giving a private interpretation to verses - something we are warned against in II Pet. 1:20.

2. I asked a question repeatedly about HOW the Sabbath was stipulated to be kept/observed, in hope that you had something to say. Here's a cavalier response you offered:

bari_kade:

(a) HOW did the Scripture command that the Sabbath be kept or observed?

. . . and yours:

Bobbyaf:

I am not aware that they did. God's law of 10 commandments already did that initially.

You're again confirming that most SDA members do not even know the stipulations for observing the Sabbath in the Bible; and when asked, they'll tell you they are not aware! Would it be too much to appeal that you take the time to check the Bible for this, and not assume you already know that much about the Sabbath?



Now, others. Did you try to evade the sense of this:

Bobbyaf:

Christ and His disciples walked through the cornfields, but He certainly didn't tell them to pick the ears of the corn. They did it for whatever reason, but Christ was accused by the jewish leaders.

First, you didn't carefully read the texts that stated the reason for the disciples plucking corn to eat in the fields: they were hungry (Matt. 12:1)! I expected you should've clearly stated it and not treat it as "for whatever reason". Second, Christ was well aware what the disciples were doing, and they acted according to the Law (Deut. 23:25)! You surely could have done better than that!

Bobbyaf:

As to whether Christ did good works on the sabbath so as to prove He kept it is pointless to whether the sabbath was kept by Him.

That being the case, how come you're pushing such a pointless agenda about Christ keeping the Sabbath?

Bobbyaf:

The fact is there is nothing that He did on the day that would have been considered worthy of sabbath breaking, since there is no law against doing good on the sabbath.

That is why I have always asked you to carefully read the Bible and provide for us HOW God stipulated that the Sabbth was to be observed. If this cavalier way you treat the issue of the Sabbath stands at all, then I guess everyone and anyone can just about choose their own way of observing the sabbath; and it would be pointless indeed for you or any SDA to find fault with it.

Bobbyaf:

He never had to impose the sabbath because it was already being kept, even if those who kept it didn't fully understand the spiritual implications of it. The fact is by the time Christ came the jewish leaders had obscured the true meaning of God's law by their traditions. So, when Christ came part of His job was to bring back the true purpose of the sabbath as he did in one occasion in Mark 2:27. You may have noticed that at no time did Christ denounce the sabbath, but made sure to correct any mis-representation concerning it.

Question #1: On what basis did Christ "bring back the true purpose of the sabbath" - on the basis of God's command to Adam in Genesis; or on the basis of the Law?

Question #2: If you say Genesis, why then has it been so difficult for you to provide a verse in Genesis for that command??

Question #3: If you deny it was on the basis of the Law, why then did Christ speak in reference to the Law in Matt. 12:5 on the same subject?

Bobbyaf:

Thats becasue they had lost the true meaning of what is involved with sabbath keeping.

Bobbyaf, let me ask you the same question often repeated already: WHAT IS INVOLVED WITH SABBATH KEEPING according to the Law or Genesis?? HOW and WHAT did God say is involved with Sabbath keeping??

Bobbyaf:

Listen to what Jesus said of their tradition and the ensuing results;

Matthew 23:23
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Question #4: What is meant by the "weightier matters of the Law"?

Question #5: What Law was Christ speaking about in that verse?

Bobbyaf:

What do you gather from the above texts? Christ recognised the importance of the law as well as the sabbath. He also recognised what it meant to those mistaken leaders as well.

Question #6: Where in Matt. 23:23 did Christ make mention of the Sabbath?

Bobbyaf:

Yes I believe so. If Jesus or Paul knew that the sabbath was no longer relevant, they would have made it clear. It was Jesus who said the following in Matthew 5: 18,19, 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Question #7: What Law and commandments was Jesus referring to in Matt. 5:18-19.

Bobbyaf:

So here we see that Christ had to be faithful as an exemplar, in both keeping the law, as well as admonish all to follow suit untill all be fulfilled. Hence because the sabbath is a central part of the 10 commandments I have reason to believe that He kept it and gave no authority to any of His disciples to annul any. Likewise Paul had to have kept the sabbath since there was no reason for him not to.

Question #8: So, the Sabbath you are referring to was not based on Genesis but the 10 commandments in Exodus? And therefore, was Adam expressly given the 10 commandments that came several centuries after he died? How do you apply the 10 commandments to Adam, if we are to follow you "implied" interpretation?

@Bobbyaf,

Here's the rest of my rejoinder:

Bobbyaf:

There were different categories of christians in the temples. Some new converts were being misled by some jewish christians, albeit misled ones, who insisted on their keeping Moses' law of circumcision. Paul on his journey simply saught to enlighten them on the real essence of salvation. The Pauline letters remind us of that reality.

Question #9: where in those verses did it say that there were "different categories of christians"? According to you, what different categories of christians exist in the Bible?

Bobbyaf:

Well, put it this way He cleared up the issue with them, just lik ehow I am clearing it up with you now.

Pity, you really must have a smile for "clearing it up" when you have not been able to provide a verse in Genesis!

Bobbyaf:

Even though I addressed them all I will again.

Start with the verse in Genesis for Adam being commanded to keep the Sabbath; then please try and provide answers to the number of questions in my rejoinder.

Bobbyaf:

"The sabbath was made for man" clause signifies that the sabbath was made for man's benefit. It was a day for man to reflect on God's act of creatorship, without having to think about mundane matters. Such resting provided relaxation and re-creation.

Well, if that is how you interpret the first clause (and thanks for the attempt this time), then new questions rise to the fore:

Question #10: If the Sabbath was meant as a day for man to reflect "without having to think about mundane matters", is it okay for man to think about mundane matters on other days of the week? If you can define the term, what 'mundane matters' are excluded in our thoughts that could be expressed on any other days of the week?

Question #11: What verse did you get the idea that "such resting provided relaxation and re-creation" (or, recreation)? Whichever one, as such "recreation" was provided in the resting of the Sabbath, would the SDA admit that they cannot condemn others who enjoy their own "recreation" like AC-Milan and the football fiesta?

Bobbyaf:

Cannot address # 3 because there is no such clause.

I won't bother you for now, but will offer you my views later on that.

Bobbyaf:

The significance of clause 4 has to do with the fact that man was not made after the sabbath, but before it was instituted. Adam was made on the 6th day, while the sabbath was made on the 7th day. The expression "made for" suggest purpose. Anything that is made for somehing else must have a purpose. In other words one cannot put the cart before the horse, and that is exactly what Christ had in mind when He clarified matters with those misled jewish leaders. . .Man cannot serve the sabbath, but the sabbath was made to serve the needs of all mankind according to Jesus.

I would have to cut in here, because there's a very polarized interpretation you're bring up in this. If the expression "made for" suggests purpose, then check out the meaning of the same expression in I Tim. 1:9 - "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers."

Applying the same rule of thought, if clause #4 ('man was not made for the Sabbath') was saying that "Man cannot serve the sabbath"; then in the same vein one might say that, "a righteous man cannot serve the law" since the Bible says that "the law is not made for a righteous man!"

The moment you begin to make inferences that are wide of the berth, you immediately see it cannot stand up to proper context for which until now you still have no verse in support of God commanding Adam to keep the Sabbath!

Bobbyaf:

The essence of the sabbath is resting from one's own labour or work. The 4th commandment makes it clear.

Question #12: Where do you find the 4th commandment - in Genesis or in Exodus? The reason for this is that I'm concerned about your making a Judaic law wider than its context. So, what commandments are you referring to - the one God gave Adam, or the one given to the Jews? If God gave the 10 commandments to Adam, please find me the verse in Genesis for that!

Bobbyaf:

How could I when there was none! But as I said Mark 2:27 took care of that, unless of course Adam wasn't a man!

Great! So you admit that there in no verse whatsoever for your Adam-sabbath agenda; and yet you disregard the context in Mark 2:27 as referring to the Law as revealed in Matt. 12:5!


Dealing with I Cor. 16 and Acts.

Bobbyaf:

There is no indication that the individual even need to leave home to do this, but rather that the entire process was to be done at home.

How do you deny something and then applaud the very same thing you just denied. Since you admit that there is no indication that people had to leave home, what indication exist in that chapter that the entire process was to be done at home? Where is it stated so?

Bobbyaf, do you obey that very verse yourself as you interpreted?

Bobbyaf:

It is also clear from the book of Acts, that Paul kept only the Sabbath day in Corinth, and not Sunday:
Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Acts 18:11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Again, I notice you skipped verses inbetween and missed the group of people Paul was speaking to:
Acts 18:5 - "And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ." If these were already Christians, how could Paul have been wasting time and effort testifying to people who already knew that Jesus is the Christ? That message (that Jesus is Christ) is what an evangelist preaches to non-Christians in order to bring them to the Saviour!

The fact that they were not already Christians is shown in verse 6 by their reaction - they opposed themselves and blasphemed! Is that what the Bible teaches that true Christians do? You again purposely skipped verse 8 that shows the result of these non-Christian Jews becoming converts to the faith: "And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized." You make these these mistakes because you can't see anything in Scripture other than the word "Sabbath!"

Bobbyaf:

That's 72 Sabbaths that Paul preached in Corinth. There can be no question that Paul raised up a Sabbath keeping church in Corinth, a church that knew nothing of observing Sunday as a holy day.

I notice that the same Paul was afraid for the Galatians because they were observing "days, and months, and times, and years" (Gal. 4:10). The same Paul was cautioning the Colossians about not letting anyone judge them "in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days" (Col. 2:16). I don't see Paul applauding the Sabbath in Corinthian while discouraging it in other places.

Bobbyaf:

So, while many will point to 1 Corinthians 16:2 in the light of Tradition, and say that it refers to passing the collection plate during a Sunday service, in context, that is simply not indicated by the text.

Neither was your summation indicated by the text.

Bobbyaf:

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Clearly the disciples are meeting on Sunday, the first day of the week. It might even be presumed by some that by "breaking bread" they celebrated the Lord's supper that Sunday.

You know, I don't know why you could admit that the disciples were clearly meeting on Sunday! So, at least, there you have it that Christians actually met on Sunday even in the first century!! This practice was on for several decades, and historians closer to that age actually recorded the fact!

Bobbyaf:

The question that needs to be asked though, is why were the disciples assembled on this day? What reason brought them together? In context, it will be seen that Paul was departing the next day on his journey to Jerusalem to be present during the Pentecost festival (v. 16). This gathering was a farewell assembly with Paul, the last day the people at Troas could meet with him, and that is why it lasted into the early morning hours. In fact Paul talked with them all through the night and then left in the morning at sunrise (v. 11).

So, what was the reason for the disciples coming together on that Sunday in that verse? If you read it again, it clearly was not about coming together to hear Paul; rather, they gathered together for the express purpose of celebrating the Lord's Supper- verse 7 [when the disciples came together to break bread]. Paul only used the occasion to preach to them, since he was hoping to depart the next day.

Bobbyaf:

Perhaps, yet even if they did, as some maintain, there is no indication that that Sunday, or any Sunday, was being observed as a newly instituted weekly holy day to commemorate the resurrection.

I haven't seen any Scripture indicating that the Saturday was being observed as an instituted weekly holy day to commemorate the resurrection either. Do you have any text to that effect?

Bobbyaf:

The breaking of bread did not indicate a special day of worship,

I don't think anyone said that the breaking of bread indicated "a special day of worship". The Scriptures show that the breaking of bread was rather a declaration of the Lord's death till He come - I Cor. 11:26.

Bobbyaf:

or even that the Lord's supper was being celebrated, as scripture tells us they met daily and broke bread from house to house

What are you getting at, Bobbyaf? Was breaking of bread in Acts 20:7 any different from the Lord's Supper in I Cor. 11:20 & 26?

Bobbyaf:

This first day in question was simply a Saturday night that was to the Jews the first day of the week. Jewish time reckoning was totally different than ours today. According to scriptures a day begins at sunset and ends at sunset., and not at 12am. Since the sabbath ended at sunset, then the dark portion of the day would automatically become Sunday which would have been the dark portion. This explains why Paul preached until sunrise of the same Sunday which we would refer to as Sunday morning.

So, if the first day in question was simply a Saturday night, you were being disingenuous earlier when you admitted that the first day of the week in Acts 20:7 was a Sunday! You don't seem to make sense by this back and forth arguments that are neither here nor there. Besides, if the first day of the week was simply a Saturday night, whatever happened to your seventh day of the week that you've been bantering all along? Your calculations would now mean that the seventh day of the week was actually a Friday night, and not a saturday at all! In that case, Bobbyaf, let's add two more questions:

Question #13: do you gather for church services in SDA on Saturday nights?

Question #14: if your seventh day meant Saturday, then what calculations are you trying to manipulate for sunset Saturday as the Sabbath day? Should I take it that as a sabbath keeper, you actually refer to a normal Monday morning in the office as a Monday night?

Bobbyaf:

There is noting definitive about those two texts. Sorry bari_kade you'll have to do better than accuse me of not being contextual, yet taking these very same texts way off base.

That's simply because you have your calculations confused at the moment; and when you have attempted the questions in my rejoinder, then I'll show just how you missed the context in Scripture.

Regards.

I no fit read big big long long grammar O.
But I must say that I now fully understand SDA doctrine,I had been fooled all along.

@babyosisi,

babyosisi:

I no fit read big big long long grammar O.
But I must say that I now fully understand SDA doctrine,I had been fooled all along.

Well, me sef I had to learn much, and that is why I can deal with every point our SDA friend (SDA.f) is offering. This explains why the "big big long long grammar." Could I summarize them for you?

SDA.f usually takes Mark 2:27 as the text to support the idea that God commanded Adam to keep the Sabbath. I offered Matt. 12:5 to show that Jesus was referring to the Law. Since this was rejected by SDA.f, I asked for a text in Genesis where Adam was so commanded to observe the Sabbath; his answer was that there was none!

My concern now is that if there is no text in Genesis where Adam was commanded to keep the sabbath,why make other scriptures say what they don't? That's why I offered several questions, because so far SDA.f has been forcing his thoughts into the Bible to say what the Word does not say.

I notice that it is quite convinient for you to not use context in your display of 1 Corinthians 16:2 and Acts 20:7,which have nothing to do with the christian church setting any precedent for Sunday services, yet when I rightfully declare Mark 2:27 as providing meaning for Genesis 2:1-3, you make a big deal out of it by cross referencing other passages that have no bearing on the subject.

It is very simple bari_kade, and no amount of spinning will help you circumvent the simple expression of the Lord Himself. "The sabbath was made for man (mankind)" If you want to limit mankind to the jewish race then go ahead.

If you're saying that Adam wasn't a man then what else should we argue about? Common sense alone should dictate that if God immediately after creation set aside a day as holy, and blessed, then Adam had to be apart of that experience. Why would God sanctify a day immediately after creation, and when things were perfect, and then wait some 2000 years after, within a sinful environment, to then pass on the significance of rest to a people called the Hebrews? beats me!

That is why I said that Mark 2:27 provides meaning for people like you who find it extremely difficult seeing the logics of scripture.

As soon as you find a text that commands that Sunday has been designated as the New day on which to meet and celebrate the Lord's supper I will gladly accept it as truth. Until then I will stick with the original sabbath for now. Since heaven and earth are still standing as Jesus alluded to, then His law still stands, and if His law still stands then the sabbath still stands.

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

I notice that it is quite convinient for you to not use context in your display of 1 Corinthians 16:2 and Acts 20:7,which have nothing to do with the christian church setting any precedent for Sunday services, yet when I rightfully declare Mark 2:27 as providing meaning for Genesis 2:1-3, you make a big deal out of it by cross referencing other passages that have no bearing on the subject.

It's quite simple, really. The basic assumptions you made on Mark 2:27 has no reference to Gen. 2:1-3, and when I challenged your presupposition thereto, you severally confirmed you had no text in Genesis for what you argued in Adam's case! Not only so, my refutation of your premise conclusively brought out the context that the Lord Jesu was referring to the Law, and confirmed the same by pointing to Matt. 12:5. If that was not contextual, you said absolutely nothing thereto.

The same applies to your complaint about I Cor. 16:2 and Acts 20:7. In the former, I merely asked you a few questions, while clearly discussing why your presumptions thereto have no substance. Same applies to the latter; and I would have expected that you helped point out how I missed the contexts.

You cannot make blank statements upon just about any verse of Scripture; and that is why I offered cogent questions on your handling of the Sabbath as to HOW it was supposed to be kept/observed and WHAT was involved in its observance.

Bobbyaf:

It is very simple bari_kade, and no amount of spinning will help you circumvent the simple expression of the Lord Himself. "The sabbath was made for man (mankind)" If you want to limit mankind to the jewish race then go ahead.

If only you see your own spinning that has pedantically refused to answer my questions to you. Rather, if you even attempted an answer, it was your embarrassing admission that you had no verse for the "Adam" you substituted in Mark 2:27; nevermind your inability to deal with the corresponding verse in Matt. 12:5 confirming the Lord Jesus was speaking about the Law and not Genesis.

Bobbyaf:

If you're saying that Adam wasn't a man then what else should we argue about?

I never said anything such thing about Adam not being a man. My appeal was that you read issues contextually and not force your personal ideas into Scripture. The latter is called eisegesis ('reasoning into' - bias) and the former is exegesis (reasoning out of - context).

Bobbyaf:

Common sense alone should dictate that if God immediately after creation set aside a day as holy, and blessed, then Adam had to be apart of that experience. Why would God sanctify a day immediately after creation, and when things were perfect, and then wait some 2000 years after, within a sinful environment, to then pass on the significance of rest to a people called the Hebrews? beats me!

Common sense without revelation hasn't helped much, has it? That is why I only requested a simple text to show where God commanded Adam to keep the Sabbath; and HOW it was supposed to be kept/observed. Answer? You had none.

Now let me help you about how God makes a stipulation and waits several decades or centuries before it is fulfilled. You're very familiar with Isaiah 9:6 - "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given. . ." Notice Isaiah's use of the present tense ('. . .IS born') as if the Messiah was already born in his day. It was not until centuries later that Christ was born - "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law" (Gal. 4:4).

In the same vein, I fail to see where God expressly gave a commandment/law to Adam to keep/observe the Sabbath in Genesis. If He spoke of the seventh day in Genesis, it is understood that He had His eyes far into the future beyond Genesis when the full import of the Sabbath would be given to humanity in Christ. I believe this is why the Lord Jesus referred to Himself as 'Lord of the Sabbath' - the One who brings divine rest in fulfillment of what God intended in Genesis. "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11:28 ).

Bobbyaf:

That is why I said that Mark 2:27 provides meaning for people like you who find it extremely difficult seeing the logics of scripture.

Again and again, I've provided you with clear reference to show that the Lord Jesus Christ was referring to the Law in the parallel text in Matt. 12:5. He made no reference to Genesis when answering the query of the Pharisee - is that too difficult for you to see? That is why I have asked umpteenth time that you provide a verse in Genesis where Adam was commanded to keep the Sabbath.

Bobbyaf:

As soon as you find a text that commands that Sunday has been designated as the New day on which to meet and celebrate the Lord's supper I will gladly accept it as truth. Until then I will stick with the original sabbath for now. Since heaven and earth are still standing as Jesus alluded to, then His law still stands, and if His law still stands then the sabbath still stands.

Easy - just please give me the reference for "the Law" of the Sabbath. At least we have discussed the Sunday issue and I followed through with questions asking if you actually gather on Saturday nights for worship in the SDA. What you don't obey cannot be used against other Christians - that is what the Bible calls hypocrisy.

It's not surprising that no answers have been forth-coming from you about the questions I asked. I've only entered this debate with you in hope that after answering my questions, then you will convince yourself from Scripture that your presumptions are just that: your presumptions.

Regards.

Easy - just please give me the reference for "the Law" of the Sabbath. At least we have discussed the Sunday issue and I followed through with questions asking if you actually gather on Saturday nights for worship in the SDA. What you don't obey cannot be used against other Christians - that is what the Bible calls hypocrisy.

No we don't meet on saturday nights for worship. Paul had an unusually longer meeting that went into the night way back till early morning.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

As was said before breaking bread was a daily experience with the apostles. This special meeting with Paul was a farewell meeting. If you search the NT you will not find another occasion like this one. You'll not find any indication that a precedent was already set for Sunday gathering, and that this meeting was a second or third of previous ones.

Acts 20:7 spoke of one unique experience and the reasons for it has already been laid out by me.

I went on to say that it was referred to the first day of the week because the sabbath had already passed, and that would naturally lead into the first day of the week based on jewish time reckoning. Hence your question about our meeting on Saturday night is totally irrelivant.

Let me supply you another example of how the writers used the expression "first day of the week" to suggest the passing of the sabbath.

Matthew 28:1, In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

You know as well as I do that the sabbath starts at Friday sunset and ends at Saturday sunset. 24 hours are between both sunsets. You know too based on scripture that the day that follows must be Sunday. So let me work it out for you as to what happened in Acts 20:7.

Paul simply planned a special meeting that would have occured after the usual sabbath services. We don't know for sure if there might have been a break before the other meeting began, but the fact still remains any time after Sabbath/Saturday sunset is regared by scripture as "the first day of the week"

What we call Saturday night was their beginning of Sunday, only that the dark portion of the 24 hours of Sunday came first. In the case of Mary who went to the tomb, she actually went when the light portion of Sunday or what we call dawn was appearing.

Bari_kade you cannot read into scripture what you want it to say. Merely reading one scripture passage to indicate a Sunday gathering precedence isn't what Peter would appreciate when he cautioned against private interpretation of scriptures.

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

Bari_kade you cannot read into scripture what you want it to say. Merely reading one scripture passage to indicate a Sunday gathering precedence isn't what Peter would appreciate when he cautioned against private interpretation of scriptures.

In the same vein, you cannot ignore other texts and read into Mark 2:27 what you want it to say, that it does not say. In all the texts offered you I have attempted to follow the principle set forth in II Pet. 1:20.

Bobbyaf:

So let me work it out for you as to what happened in Acts 20:7.
Paul simply planned a special meeting that would have occured after the usual sabbath services.

The Acts 20:7 gathering was a meeting set for the purpose of breaking bread, and Paul only used the occasion to speak to them. There's no indication that Paul planned that meeting, as you're again reading issues into the text. The essential features of the Christian meetings ab initio are as found in Acts 2:42 - "And they continued stedfastly in ^(a)the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in ^(b)breaking of bread, and in ^(c)prayers." This was the precedence for Acts 20:7, and it was not a unique experience.

Bobbyaf:

I went on to say that it was referred to the first day of the week because the sabbath had already passed, and that would naturally lead into the first day of the week based on jewish time reckoning. Hence your question about our meeting on Saturday night is totally irrelivant.

You often see people's questions as "irrelevant" because you simply can't offer cogent answers - and that, perhaps, explains why your latest entry carefully dodged all my previous questions.

If the seventh day begins at sunset Friday, why wait until Saturday before gathering in SDA for worship? The reason I'm asking this question (whether or not "irrelevant" to you) is because up until now you've been evading answers to HOW the sabbath was supposed to be kept/observed according to Scripture. What you don't have Scripture answers for, cannot be used to denounce other Christians.

There are 14 cogent questions requiring your answers - and, please, don't miss the contexts. As long as you keep evading these questions, your exercise will only be cosmetic to what you cannot defend.

Regards.

@ bari_kade

If the seventh day begins at sunset Friday, why wait until Saturday before gathering in SDA for worship? The reason I'm asking this question (whether or not "irrelevant" to you) is because up until now you've been evading answers to HOW the sabbath was supposed to be kept/observed according to Scripture. What you don't have Scripture answers for, cannot be used to denounce other Christians.

If the sabbath begins at sunset Friday? If, you you say? , come on! Hahaha, you're giving me stitches man.

I am taken a back as to why your wanting to know how the sabbath was supposed to be kept has any bearing as to whether ror not the sabbath is still relevant. Thats not and will never be my onous.

The 4th commandment of the 10 gives all a guide as to what is required. As I have repeatedly said God has given mankind 6 working days to do his or her business, and a designated day on which to rest.

If the seventh day begins at sunset Friday, why wait until Saturday before gathering in SDA for worship?

Simply because sabbath worship is not confined to a church building. Every true sabbath keeper will welcome the sacred hours at Friday sunset at home or a convinient place designated for worship. After a good night's rest we then meet as a church body to continue the worship services until sabbath ends.

@bari_kade,

Well done with your erudite analysis and treatment of the sabbath subject. I especially like the way you carefully compare scripture with scripture between Mark 2:27 and Matt. 12:5 to show that the Lord Jesus was referring to the Law of Moses, and not to Genesis when He answered the Jews. I'm not surprised that if you ask the SDA where in Genesis God commanded Adam to keep/observe the Sabbath, they simply have no verse in the entire Bible for their argument!

Besides your cogent questions, here's something that you stated which has helped a better understanding of the issue:

bari_kade:

In the same vein, I fail to see where God expressly gave a commandment/law to Adam to keep/observe the Sabbath in Genesis. If He spoke of the seventh day in Genesis, it is understood that He had His eyes far into the future beyond Genesis when the full import of the Sabbath would be given to humanity in Christ. I believe this is why the Lord Jesus referred to Himself as 'Lord of the Sabbath' - the One who brings divine rest in fulfillment of what God intended in Genesis. "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11:28 ).

@Bobbyaf,

If your arguments have any persuasions at all, why have you carefully dodged all the 14 cogent questions bari_kade offered you?

Yes, Bobby please answer bari_kade's questions. esp how God expects us to keep the sabbath (Including how you keep the sabbath). And while you're at it, how did Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and co keep the sabbath?

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

If the sabbath begins at sunset Friday? If, you you say? , come on! Hahaha, you're giving me stitches man.

Why is it that when you try to evade questions on issues you cannot defend, then it becomes a "Hahaha" and "stitches" that expose your cosmetic arguments in the first place?

Bobbyaf:

I am taken a back as to why your wanting to know how the sabbath was supposed to be kept has any bearing as to whether ror not the sabbath is still relevant. Thats not and will never be my onous.

Read again the various comments following our debate so far, and see that I'm not the only one seeking your answer on this. At least, 4get_me and lafile are also interested. The reason why you cannot see any relevance thereto is because you have no answers for the same argument you've been noising on the Forum.

Bobbyaf:

The 4th commandment of the 10 gives all a guide as to what is required. As I have repeatedly said God has given mankind 6 working days to do his or her business, and a designated day on which to rest.

Then let me remind you of a few previous cogent questions while adding one more as a reminder:

Question #12: Where do you find the 4th commandment - in Genesis or in Exodus? If God gave the 10 commandments to Adam, please find me the verse in Genesis for that!

In other words, the same question could be asked this way: What "10 comamndments" are you referring to - the one you cannot provide from Genesis; or the same Law of Moses in Exodus that you initially rejected?

And since you are (presumably) putting forth your arguments based on the '10 Commandments', this is simply restating what has already been stated before:

Bobbyaf, let me ask you the same question often repeated already: WHAT IS INVOLVED WITH SABBATH KEEPING according to the Law or Genesis?? HOW and WHAT did God say is involved with Sabbath keeping??

So, the added question now is:

Question #15 - Can you please state exactly HOW the Sabbath was to be kept, observed or celebrated?

Bobbyaf:

Simply because sabbath worship is not confined to a church building. Every true sabbath keeper will welcome the sacred hours at Friday sunset at home or a convinient place designated for worship. After a good night's rest we then meet as a church body to continue the worship services until sabbath ends.

My question was not about where you keep/observe the sabbath - a church building, at home or a covenient place. My question was more about HOW and WHEN you observe it.

I think so far you've been pushing an agenda that you neither understand nor are able to provide Biblical verses for in Genesis. And if you really have any substance to your allegations ab initio, could you please do us the favour of answering the questions offered you instead of the cosmetic and empty 'Hahaha' and 'stitches'?

Regards.

@lafile & 4get_me,

Thanks for following the discussion. All I just require from our SDA representative is simple answers to my questions on the Sabbath. If someone does not have answers for what he/she alleges, there's no reason why they should use such baseless arguments to condemn anyone else. That has been the basic concern of my entering this discussion with him.

Cheers.

@ bobbyaf,
Is the true church about sabbath keeping?

Thanks bari_kade, for the brilliant exposee.

@ Mrpataki

@ bobbyaf,
Is the true church about sabbath keeping?

Excellent question! Its simple and to the point. The true church is about truth in its entirety which includes a proper knowledge and understanding of the Lord's sabbath.

What is the Lord's Sabbath - and HOW did the Bible say it was supposed to be observed?

Bari_kade I will leave you to your tricks. Keep playing the game and see who will lose eventually when the truth confonts you.

I have nothing to fear by being obedient to God's word, so I am a free man in Jesus. Matthew 5 speaks of you as teaching men to disobey God's commands. In God's heavenly kingdom you're not favoured because you make out God to be a liar by mis-representing His words.

1. When Jesus said the sabbath was made for mankind you have insisted that it was made for the jews. You draw falsely upon other references to further confuse your readers, and no doubt yourself. You barage the board with long drawn out speeches, and irrelivant questionings,  that have no bearing on the real issues.

2. When Jesus said that "not one jot or tittle of the law shall pass untill heaven and earth pass first", you draw upon other references to further confuse the issues.

3. The scriptures that clearly show that Paul kept the sabbath even in nature you have clearly denied. You have also failed to see the frequency with which Paul kept the sabbath during his missionary journeys as his custom was.

4. You have also failed to notice that not once has the NT given us a command to observe Sunday as a day to meet, or has been designated as such.

Its about time you confess that your going to church on Sundays is traditonal that scriptural.

SEUN, U NEED TO LOCK THIS TOPIC!
IT'S DOING MY HEAD IN!!

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

Bari_kade I will leave you to your tricks. Keep playing the game and see who will lose eventually when the truth confonts you.

The tricks you have been playing all this while by condemning other Christians on a Sabbath subject that you have not been able to defend all this while is confronting you already! Face it!

Bobbyaf:

I have nothing to fear by being obedient to God's word, so I am a free man in Jesus.

No one was intimidating you - we just wanted answers to simply stated questions, which up until now you have been evading with cleverly convoluted dribbles!

Bobbyaf:

Matthew 5 speaks of you as teaching men to disobey God's commands.

Typical - I've heard this many times from SDA members who are very quick to judge people when their arguments have been exposed as baseless.

Bobbyaf:

In God's heavenly kingdom you're not favoured because you make out God to be a liar by mis-representing His words.

Nevermind that you're not my Judge, so your vexations have no heat. Not once did I make God out to be a liar; and typically when SDA members have run out of their game, the characteristic next thing to do is launch into attacks, accusations and prejudices.

Bobbyaf:

1. When Jesus said the sabbath was made for mankind you have insisted that it was made for the jews.

And I gave cogent reasons for that by comparing Scripture with Scripture - the very thing you failed to do!

Bobbyaf:

You draw falsely upon other references to further confuse your readers, and no doubt yourself. You barage the board with long drawn out speeches, and irrelivant questionings,  that have no bearing on the real issues.

Keep accusing and foaming your vexations - I'm quite used to it by now. Where are your answers to any one of the 15 cogent questions I asked you? And where indeed have you been able to sanely present your Genesis verse for a commandment of the Sabbath to Adam as you argued?

Bobbyaf:

2. When Jesus said that "not one jot or tittle of the law shall pass untill heaven and earth pass first", you draw upon other references to further confuse the issues.

I asked questions, you gave no answers. If that leaves you confused, read the rejoinders again - at least there are other people asking you to answer my questions.

Bobbyaf:

3. The scriptures that clearly show that Paul kept the sabbath even in nature you have clearly denied. You have also failed to see the frequency with which Paul kept the sabbath during his missionary journeys as his custom was.

I dealt with every single verse in your "Paul kept the sabbath" misconceptons. The questions that followed them are still unanswered by you!

Bobbyaf:

4. You have also failed to notice that not once has the NT given us a command to observe Sunday as a day to meet, or has been designated as such.

And you have also woefully failed to present with clarity the verse that commands Christians to meet for worship on Friday night or Saturday! I asked you to check with early church historians on the issue if you had any doubts - you were glibly silent on that one as well!

Bobbyaf:

Its about time you confess that your going to church on Sundays is traditonal that scriptural.

And it's just about time for you to own up that your allegations and accusations have no basis in the precious Word of God. Using a subject you don't understand, cannot defend, and have no verse in Genesis for, to attack other people is hypocrisy. Desist from it, and seek the truth of God's word.

You can start by answering my questions, and continue to make it obvious that after painfully searching for several days, you still have no verse in Genesis for God commanding Adam to keep the Sabbath!

Regards.

@ Bari_kade

What is the Lord's Sabbath

 Ex. 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

- and HOW did the Bible say it was supposed to be observed?

Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

There are two components to sabbath keeping and they are both connected:

1. Keeping it holy

2. Resting from your work, or labour.

As regards #1 the sabbath is already holy and God desires that we keep it that way. Keeping it holy involves worship and doing good in the act of keeping it.

As regards # 2 it means not doing your usual mundane stuff that can be done during the 6 days allotted you for those stuff, and that are not dedicated to worship.

Of course the word work has to be taken into context, because at church services work is done, but that is not the kind of work that the command highlights. I mean lifting the tithes and free will offering requires work. If we have communion there is some degree of work. I believe you get the gist.

Moses no doubt gave guidelines of specificity as far as proper sabbath keeping was concerned in his time which were based on the prevailing circumstances. In our time we are faced with our prevailing circumstances and so our approach to sabbath keeping will be different today.



Sabbath keeping will vary according to cultural differences.

@Bobbyaf,

After your accusations, now you're attempting to provide answers to my questions. A few remarks before I deal with your failed attempts. In the first place, you intoned that you were not aware that there were any stipulations:

(a) HOW did the Scripture command that the Sabbath be kept or observed?

Bobbyaf:

I am not aware that they did. God's law of 10 commandments already did that initially.

Perhaps, you have had to go back and seek out God's instruction on the issue, and I'm glad for you to come back with something.

However, you actually are bringing up issues that are still disturbing to your premise. This is what you stated:

Bobbyaf:

Sabbath keeping will vary according to cultural differences.

I find that a very strange statement coming from you, especially when you tried to use Matt. 5 to prejudge me earlier. But did you notice that your statement above again falls short of the Word of God? If you are advocating a relaxing of the Law according to "cultural differences", then in Matt. 5:18-19, Jesus said quite the opposite to what you just said. The Word of God is not subject to cultural differences concerning the Laws and commandments that He issued:

Exo. 12:49 - "One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you."

Secondly, I see you're now often abandoning your Genesis argument in favour of the Law of Moses in your quote of Exodus 20: 10 & 8, with this subscript:

Bobbyaf:

Moses no doubt gave guidelines of specificity as far as proper sabbath keeping was concerned in his time which were based on the prevailing circumstances.

What this says to me is that you're confusing issues all the more for yourself, because the same Law you denied Jesus made reference to in Mark 2:27 (when compared with Matt. 12:5) is the very same context you're now applauding. My concern has been that, if you can't find a text for your Adam-sabbath commandment in Genesis, then your arguement will appear weak thereto.

Thirdly, I assume you're just are making another one of those implied inferences for an idea that is not in the word of God. When you state that "that is not the kind of work that the command highlights" but have no qualms about "lifting the tithes and free will offering", you're playing a convenient chance of games. Read again the Exo. 20:10 that you referenced:

"But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates."

The Bible says in it that shalt not do "any work!" Of course, I am very aware that elsewhere, there's an injunction for the work not being servile; but you earlier hinted that the Sabbath was for recreation. Now my concern is this: If the Sabbath is for recreation as you said, what is wrong with people or footballers player a soccer game on Saturday?

@ Bari_kade  

After your accusations, now you're attempting to provide answers to my questions.

Listen to yourself! As if your questions are oh so important.  , what a pompous fellow!

A few remarks before I deal with your failed attempts. In the first place, you intoned that you were not aware that there were any stipulations

My saying that I wasn't aware of any scriptural stipulations is exactly that. This format of debate between us is unique. I hardly saw the relevance and I still don't, as to your line of questions as it related to the relevance of the sabbath truth.

Sabbath keeping will vary according to cultural differences.

I find that a very strange statement coming from you, especially when you tried to use Matt. 5 to prejudge me earlier.

My statement on cultural differences has nothing to do with Matthew 5.

But did you notice that your statement above again falls short of the Word of God? If you are advocating a relaxing of the Law according to "cultural differences", then in Matt. 5:18-19, Jesus said quite the opposite to what you just said. The Word of God is not subject to cultural differences concerning the Laws and commandments that He issued:

I am not aware of relaxing any law based on what was said about cultural differences. If you don't know what I am talking about don't be afriad to ask for clarification. Some other time I will clarify what I mean by cultural differences.

Exo. 12:49 - "One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you."

Its strange how you can use this text to support your argument yet you fail to see its relevance as it relates to people other than the jews keeping the sabbath.

Secondly, I see you're now often abandoning your Genesis argument in favour of the Law of Moses in your quote of Exodus 20: 10 & 8, with this subscript:

I am glad you say argument and not idea! I have no time to waste with you on the subject. What I have said is said. If you desire to keep bickering on the matter go ahead.

What this says to me is that you're confusing issues all the more for yourself, because the same Law you denied Jesus made reference to in Mark 2:27 (when compared with Matt. 12:5) is the very same context you're now applauding. My concern has been that, if you can't find a text for your Adam-sabbath commandment in Genesis, then your arguement will appear weak thereto.

Let us examine Matthew 12:5 that you keep harping on. It says:

Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

First of all law in the sentence means the writings of Moses. Jesus' references to this law was to highliht the hypocracy of the jewish leaders and how they viewed the sabbath. Your duty is to fully understand what Jesus meant by the priests profaning the sabbath without being blameless. You need to seek the context of Jesus' words, and stop loosely using passages for which you lack the proper understaning.

Yes Jesus gave a discourse, but was He denouncing the sabbath, or was He showing them to look at the more weightier matters of the law? Why merely follow rules for rule's sake? Your showing Matthew 12:5 doesn't change one iota of truth about true sabbath keeping. It doesn't contradict in any form or fashion the general principle that the sabbath was made for mankind either.

You keep harping about my not finding a command for the sabbath given to Adam as if that will somehow prove you right and me wrong. I already said to you that no such command exists, but that Mark 2:27 implied a purpose for God giving the sabbath to mankind generally, and more specifically, Adam, and no doubt strengthens Genesis 3:1-3.

What you have failed to do is prove that Adam was not a man. And I will remind you constantly that the word "man" in Mark 2:27 is used generically to mean mankind. Go do some research and you'll see that truth. One doesn't need a command to see the obvious, or what is implied in both Mark and Genesis. The fact that God on day seven sanctified or set aside the day, its pretty obvious that the moment He did it, it meant that any person whom He created would have come to that realization, especially when we stop to think how beneficial the sabbath is. The following passage gives the reason for remembering the sabbath.

Exudus 20:10,11, But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

In other words God set an example for mankind. He didn't rest becasue He was tired, but set aside a day in which we can celebrate His creative works. Each time the 7th day came around, Adam and Eve were to rest in celebration of God's creatorship. So, the coined argument about there not being a command for Adam and Eve to have kept the sabbath can be taken for what it was, pointless and meaningless. It means nothing. There are a lot of things that were not explicitly said in scriptures for which we have used other passages to explain, and the ones in Mark and Genesis are no exception.

So according to you by virtue of your understanding of the whole issue, is that only the hebrews/jews were previlaged to be able to appreciate that God was Creator? All those righteous patriarchs like Jared, Enoch, and others were never made aware of the need to commemorate God's creation. So God had to suspend the purpose of the sabbath some 2000 years after creation for a people called the Hebrews. This is the most ridiculous argument among Sunday-keeping christians. It makes God look partial.

The Bible says in it that shalt not do "any work!" Of course, I am very aware that elsewhere, there's an injunction for the work not being servile; but you earlier hinted that the Sabbath was for recreation. Now my concern is this: If the Sabbath is for recreation as you said, what is wrong with people or footballers player a soccer game on Saturday?

Re-creation not in that sense of the word. Besides, playing football is not considered resting.

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

Listen to yourself! As if your questions are oh so important.  , what a pompous fellow!

I told you already that I'm used to the silliness of SDA members who launch into attacks when they run out of their fatuity.

Bobbyaf:

My saying that I wasn't aware of any scriptural stipulations is exactly that. This format of debate between us is unique. I hardly saw the relevance and I still don't, as to your line of questions as it related to the relevance of the sabbath truth.

I don't question that at all - any careful reader can see the vacancy of thought.

Bobbyaf:

Sabbath keeping will vary according to cultural differences.

My statement on cultural differences has nothing to do with Matthew 5.

Nope, it doesn't. Matt. 5 only helped your accusations more than your assent.

Bobbyaf:

I am not aware of relaxing any law based on what was said about cultural differences. If you don't know what I am talking about don't be afriad to ask for clarification. Some other time I will clarify what I mean by cultural differences.

There's no time I have been afraid to offer questions - and so far you have been scared of offering any answers to the 15 questions already asked.

Bobbyaf:

Its strange how you can use this text to support your argument yet you fail to see its relevance as it relates to people other than the jews keeping the sabbath.

There's nothing strange about that if you're still mixing up issues.

Bobbyaf:

I am glad you say argument and not idea! I have no time to waste with you on the subject. What I have said is said. If you desire to keep bickering on the matter go ahead.

What you call "bickering" is a classic pun employed by SDA members when they can't wash their careless statements in public.

Bobbyaf:

Let us examine Matthew 12:5 that you keep harping on. It says:

Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

First of all law in the sentence means the writings of Moses. Jesus' references to this law was to highliht the hypocracy of the jewish leaders and how they viewed the sabbath. Your duty is to fully understand what Jesus meant by the priests profaning the sabbath without being blameless. You need to seek the context of Jesus' words, and stop loosely using passages for which you lack the proper understaning.

If you had a good training, all this noise you just made would have been unnecessary. Matt. 12:5 was offered you in consonance with Mark 2:27 to the simple point that the Lord Jesus was referring to the Law of Moses in answer to your allegation that Adam being commanded to observe that Sabbath!

Besides, another fumble in your reply of "without being blameless" should have read "without blame!" Your statement changed the meaning of what the Lord said and actually was accusing the priests of being blamed!

Bobbyaf:

Yes Jesus gave a discourse, but was He denouncing the sabbath, or was He showing them to look at the more weightier matters of the law? Why merely follow rules for rule's sake?

That's the big issue - "Why merely follow rules for rules sake?" - and that's why I have been asking cogent questions that will help you see where you were bungling the issue.

Bobbyaf:

Your showing Matthew 12:5 doesn't change one iota of truth about true sabbath keeping. It doesn't contradict in any form or fashion the general principle that the sabbath was made for mankind either.

I nowhere said that Matt. 12:5 changed anything about Sabbth. Rather, I used it to call your attention to the fact that the Lord referred  to the Law of Moses and not to Genesis for Adam being commanded to keep the Sabbath. When I asked you to provide your verse for Adam, your answer was that there was none!

Bobbyaf:

You keep harping about my not finding a command for the sabbath given to Adam as if that will somehow prove you right and me wrong.

Feeling bad already for your lack of a Genesis verse?

Bobbyaf:

I already said to you that no such command exists, but that Mark 2:27 implied a purpose for God giving the sabbath to mankind generally, and more specifically, Adam, and no doubt strengthens Genesis 3:1-3.

If no such "command" exists for Adam, why read such a "command" into Mark 2:27 where it does not exist in the first place? Now you have left Genesis 2 and jumped to Genesis 3!

Bobbyaf:

What you have failed to do is prove that Adam was not a man.

Tsk! I never said Adam was not a man! I only requested you to provide your Genesis verse for a command for Adam!