@Sage.
Bottomline is you believe that there is a particular denomination/body of believers who (and only who) know the way to God.

babyosisi:

Only a cult believes theirs is the only true way and y'all are coming dangerously close.

Eruditely and aptly put.

Biblical Christianity recognizes all who believe in and confess the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God, to be the children of God in all ages since Pentecost. Cultic denominations will find a way to disparage the clear teaching of God's Word in order to celebrate only their own and denounce other Christians.

I hate being drawn into denominational arguments,they are so unbiblical.
To sage and his worrying about people celebrating Christmas,Christmas or no Christmas day will lead no one anywhere,it will not take away or add to your salvation,it is very inconsequential.
worshipping on saturday or sunday will add no iota to your salvation,don't be hung up on useless traditions.

Rom 14:3   Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
Rom 14:4   Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5   One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6   He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks

and look at what the Holy spirit also says

Rom 14:12   So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13   Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.
Rom 14:14   I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

and to the sabbath fanatics,Jesus said this

Luk 13:14   But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, "There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day."
Luk 13:15   The Lord then answered him and said, "Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it? Luk 13:16   "So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound--think of it--for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?"

more on Christ making a nonsense of observing sabbath.

[b]Mat 12:1 AT that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat.
Mat 12:2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!"
Mat 12:3 But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
Mat 12:4 "how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 "Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 "Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 "But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,'* you would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 "For the Son of Man is Lord even* of the Sabbath."
Mat 12:9 Now when He had departed from there, He went into their synagogue.
Mat 12:10 And behold, there was a man who had a withered hand. And they asked Him, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"--that they might accuse Him.
Mat 12:11 Then He said to them, "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." [/b]

@ Shahan

Just remember this each time you deny truth:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If you think it is a nornal thing to accept that its ok to be in any organization, as long as all you do is call on the name of the Lord Jesus, then you'd have missed all that the apostles fought for and gave their lives trying to maintain.

Go ahead with your "itching ears" notions, and see how far it will take you when that day comes. Go ahead and sit in your comfort zone feeling you're doing people any good with your watered down version of christianity.

You've been warned.

@ babyosisi

If only you knew how ignorant you're of scriptures. If all you can do is quote with little regard for context, then all you do is rob the forum of precious truth. I recommend you plead the Spirit to lead into all truth, and not what you think the scriptures are saying.

So although you pretnd to denounce denominations, yet you push it without even realising it. You push what you have been taught, and you criticise those who present truth.

May God help your soul. I will pray for you also that God's Spirit will guide you.

Shalom.

This character bobby has serious problems.
Please do not pray for me.
You need to first repent and give your life to Christ for you to pray any prayers that'll go anywhere.

I gave you scriptures and you're up in arms,are any of those my own words.
Neither Shahan or myself are accountable to you.
If you make yourself a judge,you've seen scriptures to that effect.
I sincerely hope you find Christ before it's too late and the scripture you quoted at Shahan will then be your reality.

Seventh day Adventist AKA sabbath or observance of OT laws will not save you,only Christ can.

This testimony from someone who finally left the cult and the reasons they did PTL.http://macgregorministries.org/seventh_day_adventists/resignation.html

@ Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:



Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Please be careful lest, the scriptures you have just quoted here stands against you in the day of Judgment.

I said in the beginning the true church is CHRIST. Not in the doctrine any denomination whatsoever preaches. Take a deeper look into the scriptures personally and ask the holySpirit for his teachings.

This testimony from someone who finally left the cult and the reasons they did PTL.http://macgregorministries.org/seventh_day_adventists/resignation.html

So what is that website going to prove? Absolutely nothing, except that you are so weak in defence of truth, that your only resort is to ferret what others have created without ever being able know whether such posted material bears truth or deception.

I don't need to resort to internet propaganda in order to defend truth. I go straight to scripture and not any second hand information about other denoms. Not even when I am debating with the JWs do I ever go to the enemies of the organization for amunition. All I need is the Holy Writ.

So because people leave the SDA church that makes it a cult, huh? No one leaves the church, but its the church that leaves them behind. Just bear in mind that God's church is a marching army. There are those who leave organizations for different reasons, and will not entirely speak the truth in order to make themselves look good.

Cheap shots will do you no good!

@mrpataki:

right on!!!

@ Bobbyaf:

sweet irony. Actually that verse you pulled out was meant for people like you. . .

@ mrpataki

Please be careful lest, the scriptures you have just quoted here stands against you in the day of Judgment.

I said in the beginning the true church is CHRIST. Not in the doctrine any denomination whatsoever preaches. Take a deeper look into the scriptures personally and ask the holySpirit for his teachings.

Christ is not the church. He is its head. This is the very thing of which I speak about people speaking their own words, and not allowing the scripture to speak.

It is written: "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God"

Besides, its highly non-sensical to go around saying that doctrines are not imprtant, when Christ Himself warned back then to beware of false teachers. The very name on which you call is the very person whose words you deny with your failure to understand scripture.

If doctrines aren't important then why are you here resisting truth, and presenting your set of doctrines however faulty they are?

I suggest you take your own foolish advice.

@ bobbyaf,
I am not in the mood for bickerings over the scripture, rather I urge you to personally go back into the scriptures yourself, at least you can read, write and comprehend sentences under the guidance of the holyspirit, who will guide you into all truth!

Again what does the above scripture you quoted out here got to say about your false doctrine that you have spewed out here

If my advice to you is foolish, let me tell you straight head long, that I am a fool for Christ, Whose fool are you Maybe then you can understand the scriptures better.

do you know SDA calls other churches the antiChrist with RCC as the head.
This is the no 1 sign of a cult.

I almost fell out my chair here!
May God help us to be able to sift the wheat from the tares!

@Bobbyaf (aka Mr. SDA sabbatical with a cult portfolio),

I usually restrain myself from entering into long-winded missives with people who try to use the precious Word of God to support their cultic movements. The Bible nowhere supports the idea of SDA's proposition denouncing other denominations or Christian Churches as you have done; and in all your entries you have upheld this cultic idea of such denunciations without a Biblical basis.

Bobbyaf:

Just remember this each time you deny truth

Bobby, where have I denied truth? And which "truth" has continually bothered you in my rejoinders? If you meant the SDA-flavoured anecdotes, you're correct in your analysis - I renounce all the cultic heresies of Ellen G. White and those pretended by the SDA leaders which are constantly edited to cover up their questionable history.

Bobbyaf:

If you think it is a nornal thing to accept that its ok to be in any organization, as long as all you do is call on the name of the Lord Jesus, then you'd have missed all that the apostles fought for and gave their lives trying to maintain.

Thanks. I can guarantee you this: none of the apostles fought for or gave their lives trying to maintain the heresies of Ellen G. White.

Bobbyaf:

Go ahead with your "itching ears" notions, and see how far it will take you when that day comes.

I got out of the SDA ear-itches years ago and I'm not about patronizing their heresies just now.

Bobbyaf:

Go ahead and sit in your comfort zone feeling you're doing people any good with your watered down version of christianity.

No one has complained about any watered-down version of Christianity as coming from me. On the contrary, please go through again and read the testimonies that trail my entries.

Bobbyaf:

You've been warned.

Most obliged, thank you. I have you in my prayers that God opens your eyes and ears to His precious Word by the revelation of His Spirit.

Chineke!!!.
these SDA people are just like mormons and JW and I never knew all along.
The false prophet ellen white who started this whole movement has a  myriad of heresies to her credit.
Thank God for this thread,I am learning more and more everyday.

Do you know that SDA believe that the coming of Christ will be marked by a return of the sabbath worship.
God have mercy.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

and bobbyaf really thinks this will include those who did not keep the sabbath?

bobbyaf thanks to you I now understand SDA doctrine after a little internet research.

As I have said before if all you can do is to ferret info from the web, then you'd missed the opportunity to discovering bible truth. I have been an SDA christian for the past 30 years. If you have a difficulty with our doctrines then pose your query with me.

Ask me anything you desire, and I will answer you. All our doctrines are bible-based.

See a site for those who left the cultic teachings.

People leave all denoms for different reasons. Pointing to any website about people leaving an organization is neither here nor there.

If you prefer a reasonable debate about the issues no problem. Just be prepared to come with scriptures.

I hope you're not scared.  

May God help you.
http://www.exadventist.com/

do you know SDA calls other churches the antiChrist with RCC as the head.
This is the no 1 sign of a cult.

30 years of SDA?
^{another sign of a cult member,where the particular church is exalted above all}

I have been a Christian,born again for less than that and my denomination is of absolutely no consequence with regards to my salvation.
The Spirit in me bears witness.
I believe in the teachings and commands of Christ not in any work of a false prophet as ellen was proven to be.

May God help you.
Thank God millions are seeing the light and fleeing.

Someone gave me a book"The ten commandments twice removed",I started reading it and stopped halfway and dropped it because of it's hammering on the sabbath day and just found out today an SDA wrote it.

If indeed you want to keep old testament laws why single out one Mr bobby,when was the last time you raised a valid burnt offering?
30 years is too long to be lost in legalism,only Grace can set you free.

Do you know that SDA believe that the coming of Christ will be marked by a return of the sabbath worship.
God have mercy.

Return of the sabbath worship? Expound a bit please! As far as I know the sabbath is here to stay, and its never been lost. So what do you mean by a return to sabbath worship? Listen to scripture:

Jesus said: "think not that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets, I have come not to destroy but to fulfil. Until heaven and earth pass, not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law (which includes the sabbath commandment) till all be fulfilled" (see matthew 5:17-22)

Well, if you can prove to me that heaven and earth are not still around then I will accept the notion that God's law (of 10 commandments) is no longer valid. God's 10 commandments were never meant to be temporary, but eternal. David says "all His commandments stand fast and forever, they are done in truth and righteousness" (see Ps. 111:7-)

David also said "the law of the Lord is perfect, making wise the simple, " (see Ps. 19)

My friend if you're prepared to grasp all truth I am prepared to show you, as long as you allow God's Spirit to be your guide.

The SDA church is not what you think it is, but I will deal with that later.

Shalom.

Mr 30 years locked up in a cult,everyday is the lords day
Is that too hard to grasp?.

@SDA people,

May I ask the following questions:

1. Has the SDA Church ever regarded any of Ellen G. White's writings to be on equal authority with the Bible?

2. Has Ellen G. White ever contradicted the Bible in any of her works?

3. Has Ellen G. White ever taught things that are not substantiated by or found in the Bible?

4. Has Ellen G. White ever not contradicted herself in any of her writings?

5. Has the SDA Church ever rejected any of Ellen G. White's writings as contrary to the Bible?

Perhaps, these questions in sound-bites may help us progress the discussion a bit further so that we understand exactly what the issues are, and why many people are persuaded that the SDA merits the status of a cult. If it does not, then I would be willing to drop any presumptions thereto after a careful examination of the position of the SDA from the Bible.

@shahan,

shahan:

I got out of the SDA ear-itches years ago and I'm not about patronizing their heresies just now.

Just curious about that line; but would that be saying that you were a former SDA member? I'm just curious.

Mr 30 years locked up in a cult,everyday is the lords day
Is that too hard to grasp?.

 

Sorry, that is not what the scriptures say! The bible says that one day has been blessed, hallowed, and sanctified which happens to be the seventh-day sabbath of the "Lord thy God"

Genesis 2:1-3
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The word sanctified means to set apart something for holy use. No other day was set aside as a memorial of God's creation, and was blessed, and made hallowed as a result. No where in these verses de we see God blessing every day as the Lord's day.

According to Jesus Himself the sabbath was given to Adam the first man. For every seventh day that came around within the weekly cycle, Adam and His wife were to rest from their work and celebrate God's creation. Like the institution of marriage, the sabbath was instituted from the very beginning of time, indicating that this divine institution could not be associated with rites and ceremonies, and that it was not intended for one race only. This is where most go wrong when they say that the sabbath was given to the jews only.

Mark 2:27
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

In other words, the sabbath as a divine institution was made for man's benefit, and not the other way around. This was said in the context that the Jewish leaders had taken away the spiritual meaning of the sabbath with their endless traditions. Not even when Christ did good on the sabbath did it mean anything to them. Hence their constant reproval of His sabbath ministry.

Notice also that Jesus did not say that the sabbathw as made for the jews, but man, and the word man is used generically to mean mankind. In other words, the institution was meant span all races, and in all times. I fail to see why God would make a gift for man's benefit, and then having to take it back. Has He taken back marriage? So why should He take back the sabbath?

This text as often used by your kind is often used to suggest that the sabbath has lost its meaning and significance. To the contrary because Christ came to once again show the full purpose of His law including the true purpose of His sabbath being a continuous sign of His Creatorship. As long as Christ is Creator of heaven and earth His sabbath is as relevant as when it was first given to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden.

Peace!

@ Bari_kade

1. Has the SDA Church ever regarded any of Ellen G. White's writings to be on equal authority with the Bible?

No we have not. She herself said that also that we should not view her writings as being on par with holy writ.

2. Has Ellen G. White ever contradicted the Bible in any of her works?

Not that I am aware of in all my readings.

3. Has Ellen G. White ever taught things that are not substantiated by or found in the Bible?

That depends on what you mean by "not found in the bible" There are a lot of things that Ellen White taught that cannot be found in the bible, like for example, her health messages, and things that pertained to education, etc. If what she taught had a biblical connection she would have brought that out in her writings. There isn't an admonition given by her that doesn't feature the word of God.

4. Has Ellen G. White ever not contradicted herself in any of her writings?

That depends on who is doing the reading, and how people view her before reading her books. Most of the criticisms leveled against her, are taken out of context. Outsiders often get piece by piece information which isn't the best way to judge a person in her status.

5. Has the SDA Church ever rejected any of Ellen G. White's writings as contrary to the Bible?

Historically speaking the early members had their doubts initially, but the experiences were too overwhelming. The test is in the writings and visions. The official body has never had reasons since to reject her as a messenger of the Lord.

Perhaps, these questions in sound-bites may help us progress the discussion a bit further so that we understand exactly what the issues are, and why many people are persuaded that the SDA merits the status of a cult.

Our doctrines don't indicate that at all, but if people get their kicks saying it, then such is life. It doesn't phase me one way or the other. The onus is for them to prove it.

If it does not, then I would be willing to drop any presumptions thereto after a careful examination of the position of the SDA from the Bible.

You can start with the doctrines. I am always available to assist with any mis-conceptions.

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

According to Jesus Himself the sabbath was given to Adam the first man.

Please, please, please. This is a classic example of twisting Scripture. Jesus did not say that the sabbath was given to Adam the first man. Not even the verses you quoted (Gen. 2:1-3) indicate that God issued the Sabbath as a commandment to Adam: it just merely stated what God did on the seventh day.

Bobbyaf:

I fail to see why God would make a gift for man's benefit, and then having to take it back. Has He taken back marriage? So why should He take back the sabbath?

When you go back and read when the Sabbath was instituted as a Law to Israel, then you will see that Gentiles were not specifically addressed as being under the Law of the Sabbath.

Besides, when taken separately, what would be the significance of each of the clauses in Mark 2:27 -

(a) the Sabbath was made for man
(b) man was made for the Sabbath

If this is not properly understood, then the idea of driving the Sabbath issue too far will not help solve the enquiry.

With respect to the five questions asked earlier about the SDA and Ellen G. White, I see that you really don't know much about her works or the history of the SDA. When you take time to delve further beyond the surface of the edited sections of her works, then you will not be so inclined to interpret issues from the position of SDA.

@ Bari_kade

Please, please, please. This is a classic example of twisting Scripture. Jesus did not say that the sabbath was given to Adam the first man.

It didn't have to spell it out for you for you to see that reality. If Jesus said that the sabbath was made for mankind, then does'nt Adam fit into the picture? Isn't he the progenitor of mankind? Why would the Creator not desire for Adam to celebrate creation every seventh day?

Not even the verses you quoted (Gen. 2:1-3) indicate that God issued the Sabbath as a commandment to Adam: it just merely stated what God did on the seventh day.

What does sanctifying the seventh day means if not setting it aside for holy use? Isn't that what the word sanctify means Bari_kade? The fact that God made the day holy, or hallowed it, means that Adam was very much aware of that principle.

When you go back and read when the Sabbath was instituted as a Law to Israel, then you will see that Gentiles were not specifically addressed as being under the Law of the Sabbath.

Besides, when taken separately, what would be the significance of each of the clauses in Mark 2:27 -

          (a) the Sabbath was made for man
          (b) man was made for the Sabbath

If this is not properly understood, then the idea of driving the Sabbath issue too far will not help solve the enquiry.

There is something wrong with clause b in your construction. You have left out the word "not", which puts the wrong idea to the contrast that Jesus wanted to bring accross. That changes the whole meaning of the sentence.

Why would Jesus say that the sabbath was made for mankind, if in truth it was made for the Jews? Wouldn't that be a contradiction on His part? The sabbath existed among God's people before it was re-instituted at mount Sinai. In fact the sabbath was never intended to be only for the jews in the time of the covenant renewal. Listen as God speaks through scripture:

Isaiah 56:2-5
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Exudus 20:10
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates

Even in the days of the apostles the gentiles kept it.

"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath." "And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God." Acts 13:42, 44

"And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks." Acts 18:4.  

With respect to the five questions asked earlier about the SDA and Ellen G. White, I see that you really don't know much about her works or the history of the SDA. When you take time to delve further beyond the surface of the edited sections of her works, then you will not be so inclined to interpret issues from the position of SDA.

I will say this much, what you think you know is not the same as what you know. There are questions and there are questions. When you look at the overall ministry of Mrs. Ellen White who ministered for 70 continuous years, and the extent to which her writings benefited the church in terms of its growth and development, there is no doubt that God's hand was with her.

I'd say this much also, that not only has the church benefited from her works, but the world also. In the area of health, education, among others, Ellen White has done far more than the mind can imagine.

Radio personality and syndicated columnist Paul Harvey, in his noontime ABC radiobroadcast of September 27, 1997, reported regarding Ellen White: "Her writings have been translated into 148 languages. More than Marx or Tolstoi, more than Agatha Cristhie, more than William Shakespeare. Only now is the world coming to appreciate her recommended prescription for optimum spiritual and physical health. "Ellen White! You don't know her? Get to know her.

Long before even I became involved with the SDA church as a boy at age 10, I started reading her books. At the time I wasn't aware of the intricacies of the denominational differences. I just was an avid reader for my age at the time and found one of her books called "Desire of Ages", a book about the life of Christ, very interesting.

One thing I can conclude is that whatever mis-informed ideas people may have of her, and about the SDA church heaping far too much praise on her, and pacing her writings on par with scrpture, is quickly dispelled as soon as they start readng any of her books, and as soon as they get the facts straight.

If you do not believe me try reading the book mentioned above. Its online so feel free to read. If you choose not to, then that is ok, but you owe it to yourself to remove whatever doubts you may have.  


Peace.

[b]James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the WHOLE LAW, and yet offend in ONE point, he is guilty of ALL."

Gal 3:10 "For as many as are of the WORKS of the law are UNDER THE CURSE: for it is written, CURSED is everyone that continueth not in ALL THINGS which are written in the law to DO THEM."

Those under the law were responsible for obeying "all things" written in the law (2,713 commandments)--not just TEN as taught by 7th Day Adventists and others who can't read! The Bible makes it clear that the Christian is not under the law!!

Rom 3:19 "Now WE KNOW that what things soever the law saith, it saith to THEM who are UNDER THE LAW: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the WORLD may become guilty before God. Therefore by the DEEDS of the law there shall NO FLESH be justified in HIS SIGHT: for the law is the knowledge of sin."

Clearly, the law is for an UNSAVED man. The law came by Moses (John 1:16) and was given to ISRAEL (Ex 19, 20)--not the Gentiles, and certainly not the CHURCH OF GOD.

Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over YOU: for YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, but under GRACE."[/b]

James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the WHOLE LAW, and yet offend in ONE point, he is guilty of ALL."

That is why you should keep all 10, and not just 9.  

Gal 3:10 "For as many as are of the WORKS of the law are UNDER THE CURSE: for it is written, CURSED is everyone that continueth not in ALL THINGS which are written in the law to DO THEM."

This speech by Paul has nothing to do with the law of 10 commandments, but the law of ceremonies. If you were an ardent reader of scriptures instead of just copying and pasting the views of others, you'd have seen how the same Paul magnifies God's law in Romans 7.

Romans 7:12-14, 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Note verse 14 that Paul concludes that God's law isn't a curse, but rather spititual, and as such something to look to as a guide in distinguishing good from evil.

Those under the law were responsible for obeying "all things" written in the law (2,713 commandments)--not just TEN as taught by 7th Day Adventists and others who can't read! The Bible makes it clear that the Christian is not under the law!!

In case you ddin't know the 10 commanments are different than all the jewish laws that were written by Moses. God wrote the 10 on Mount Sinai, and Moses wrote the laws of ceremonies in a book. Paul makes a distinction between the two which some persons find hard to see, unfortunately due to convinience.

Don't be decieved. There is one code that is eternal, and another that was meant to be temporary.

Rom 3:19 "Now WE KNOW that what things soever the law saith, it saith to THEM who are UNDER THE LAW: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the WORLD may become guilty before God. Therefore by the DEEDS of the law there shall NO FLESH be justified in HIS SIGHT: for the law is the knowledge of sin."

Once again context is important. If you go to the very beginning of Paul's discourse in Romans 3 you will see the context, but let me remind you in case you overlooked it:

Romans 3:1, 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

The general discussion was around how the jews saw salvation, faith, and the law. Paul simply made it clear that there is no amount of works, and in this case circumcision, that can save a person. Not even sabbath keeping can save a person in and of itself.

One is saved by grace through faith according to the same Paul, but he goes on further to argue in other sections of Romans, that this faith does not make void God's law. Although it cannot save by virtue of lacking the power, it is still to be seen as a divine guide, that is holy, just, good, and spiritual. (Romans 7:12-14)

Clearly, the law is for an UNSAVED man. The law came by Moses (John 1:16) and was given to ISRAEL (Ex 19, 20)--not the Gentiles, and certainly not the CHURCH OF GOD.

Wrong! The law is for everyone! When a christian commits adultery has he or she sinned? If a pastor steals church funds has he sinned? Therefore, if all those are acts of sin, and the bible says that "sin is the transgression of the law" see 1 John 3:4 then how can you say the law is only for the unsaved?

Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over YOU: for YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, but under GRACE."

Those who are obedient to God's law by His enabling grace, obviusly are not under its curse, or condemnation. That is exactly what Paul meant. A person in society who respects the law of the land for example has nothing to fear, because he has not broken the law. Hence he is free.

You know as well as others that I am not advocating salvation by works. I have said it so many times before, but of course you insist on labelling me, as well as the SDA church as such.

Do as you must!

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

It didn't have to spell it out for you for you to see that reality. If Jesus said that the sabbath was made for mankind, then does'nt Adam fit into the picture? Isn't he the progenitor of mankind? Why would the Creator not desire for Adam to celebrate creation every seventh day?

The point was simply that you don't twist Scripture to say what it did not say. I had asked that you show where in Gen. 2:1-3 God specifically gave Adam a commandment about the Sabbath day, and I'm still waiting for a clear response from you, and not esoteric interpretations that suits your group.

Bobbyaf:

What does sanctifying the seventh day means if not setting it aside for holy use? Isn't that what the word sanctify means Bari_kade? The fact that God made the day holy, or hallowed it, means that Adam was very much aware of that principle.

Bobbyaf, where in Genesis 2:1-3 did God specifically give Adam the commandment of a Sabbath day?

Bobbyaf:

There is something wrong with clause b in your construction. You have left out the word "not", which puts the wrong idea to the contrast that Jesus wanted to bring accross. That changes the whole meaning of the sentence.

It simply did not change any meaning in the question I asked. Should I take it that you were unable to answer the question?

If you prefer, I could offer the same questions in 3 ways:

              (a) the Sabbath was made for man
              (b) man was made for the Sabbath
              (c) man was not made for the Sabbath

There. Can you explicate on the significance of what those three clauses would have meant?

In anycase, you did not attempt an answer but rather offered some comments that deviated from my enquiry.

Bobbyaf:

Why would Jesus say that the sabbath was made for mankind, if in truth it was made for the Jews? Wouldn't that be a contradiction on His part? The sabbath existed among God's people before it was re-instituted at mount Sinai. In fact the sabbath was never intended to be only for the jews in the time of the covenant renewal.

When Jesus used the word "man" in Mark 2:27, He clearly was directing His speech to the Jews who knew the Law. The Lord answered on the basis of the Mosaic Law to which the Jews set their complaint; and there is no doubt that they understood He was referring specifically to the Law of Moses. This is strengthened by the fact that nowhere do we read of God instituting a Sabbath law for Adam. If there is one verse that says so, please reference it in your next post.

Bobbyaf:

Listen as God speaks through scripture:

Isaiah 56:2-5 . . .

The case of the Isaiah 56:1-5 text you quoted does not reflect the Christian position in the New covenant, (as against the covenant mentioned in verse 4) and that should have been plain if you read up to verse 7 of that chapter:

Isa 56:7 - "Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people."

You can see that God indeed was not speaking about Christianity in Isaiah 56, because the burnt offerings and sacrifices of the OT is no longer applicable in the New Covenant. Besides, when the Lord Jesus ministered in earth, He no longer found delight in the House of God on earth because the Jews had made it a den of robbers (Matt. 21:13).

The NT tells us that while the OT sacrifices and worship was in place, the way into the NT worship was not as yet revealed. So then, Isaiah 56 was referring to conditions best suited to the Old Covenant, and not to Christianity. Compare:

Heb. 9:8-11 - "The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building."

This is one of the reasons why I appeal to those who quote Isaiah 56 to carefully consider the context in light of NT teaching before they settle for a partial inference or interpretation.

Bobbyaf:

Listen as God speaks through scripture:
. . .
Exudus 20:10
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates

I'm not surprised that you are quoting a Jewish Law from Exodus, and not one from Genesis where God was supposed to have commanded Adam in respect of the Sabbath day. I'd just say that Exodus 20:10 is not a Christian position in the New Covenant.

Bobbyaf:

Even in the days of the apostles the gentiles kept it.

"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath." "And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God." Acts 13:42, 44

"And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks." Acts 18:4.

Please calm down and read the context again. Paul was engaged in evangelism to non-Christians on the Sabbath day, as is clear from the result in verse 48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Besides, if you are careful to read things in context, you would see that Paul was not keeping the Sabbath day as instituted in the Law! The Law which you even quoted earlier in Exodus 20:10 said that "in it thou shalt not do any work!" If Paul and the apostles laboured to bring non-Christians to believe in Jesus Christ, was that not work?? It does not stand to reason that you misread these text and take at surface value that Paul was keeping the Sabbath!

Bobbyaf:

I will say this much, what you think you know is not the same as what you know. There are questions and there are questions. When you look at the overall ministry of Mrs. Ellen White who ministered for 70 continuous years, and the extent to which her writings benefited the church in terms of its growth and development, there is no doubt that God's hand was with her.

Well, any SDA member can say the same things about Ellen G. White; and this only tells me that you haven't read her unedited works. When you do, then we can deal with the grey areas of the SDA.

Bobbyaf:

I'd say this much also, that not only has the church benefited from her works, but the world also. In the area of health, education, among others, Ellen White has done far more than the mind can imagine.

The same could be said about other gurus who have done more in those areas. What I am particular about is the tenets of the SDA against the backdrop of Biblical teaching.

Bobbyaf:

Radio personality and syndicated columnist Paul Harvey, in his noontime ABC radiobroadcast of September 27, 1997, reported regarding Ellen White: "Her writings have been translated into 148 languages. More than Marx or Tolstoi, more than Agatha Cristhie, more than William Shakespeare. Only now is the world coming to appreciate her recommended prescription for optimum spiritual and physical health. "Ellen White! You don't know her? Get to know her.

I'm sure by the time we unveil the real Ellen G. White, Paul Harvey will be out of touch for any comments.

Bobbyaf:

Long before even I became involved with the SDA church as a boy at age 10, I started reading her books. At the time I wasn't aware of the intricacies of the denominational differences. I just was an avid reader for my age at the time and found one of her books called "Desire of Ages", a book about the life of Christ, very interesting.

Lucky you at that tender age. Actually I wasn't an avid reader of religious works until after I started shaving my first crop of moustache, lol. Anyway, I took a friend's advice to get a hard copy of some of Ellen's books (including the Desire of Ages) in order see things first hand and not rely on the internet. You won't believe the stuff that have lept out of pages; and that's why I asked those 5 questions earlier.

Bobbyaf:

One thing I can conclude is that whatever mis-informed ideas people may have of her, and about the SDA church heaping far too much praise on her, and pacing her writings on par with scrpture, is quickly dispelled as soon as they start readng any of her books, and as soon as they get the facts straight.

So, are you admitting to the fact that the SDA actually placed her writings on par with the Scriptures? Besides that, do not be so sure that Ellen G. White was clear of all blame.

Bobbyaf:

If you do not believe me try reading the book mentioned above. Its online so feel free to read. If you choose not to, then that is ok, but you owe it to yourself to remove whatever doubts you may have.  

As above, I'm fortunate have a former SDA member as a friend who has been kind enough to loan me his hard copies of some of Ellen's books. I'm still reading them, but you can't be so sure that she was used of God to propound the heresies and contradictions in her works.

[b] I have just learnt again from Mr 30 in legalism  that where the bible talks of laws,The SDA makes a distinction between the 10 commandments and the laws to the Jewish people,how clever,you've really gone deep into this such that the Bible has meanings to suit your agenda.

Now the same 10 commandments talks of not committing adultery, ie the  act but those of us under Grace and above the law,abide  by the standards that looking on a woman lustfully is committing fornication.
Fleeing from all appearances of evil not just dos and don'ts as your SDA commandment keeping Church teaches you.

Now,do you have your own SDA interpretation of obeserving the sabbath since the actual way to observe it is for the Jews also?
You see how you make absolutely no sense?[/b]http://www.bible.ca/7-twist.htm

OFFICIAL SDA BAPTISMAL VOWS (13)

Seventh-day Adventists do not believe in baptizing infants. A person must be old enough to accept responsibility for his/her own actions. Baptism is by immersion. In order to be baptized, a person must agree to this set of thirteen baptismal VOWS:

[b]I believe in God the Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit.
I accept the death of Jesus Christ on Calvary as the atoning sacrifice for my sins, and believe that through faith in His shed blood I am saved from sin and its penalty.
I renounce the world and its sinful ways, and have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, and believe that God, for Christ's sake, has forgiven my sins and given me a new heart.
I accept by faith the righteousness of Christ, recognizing Him as my Intercessor in the heavenly sanctuary, and claim His promise to strengthen me by His indwelling Sprit, so that I may receive power to do His will.

I believe that the Bible is God's inspired Word, and that it constitutes the only rule of faith and practice for the Christian.

I accept the Ten Commandments as still binding upon Christians; and it is my purpose by the power of the indwelling Christ, to keep this law, including the fourth commandment, which requires the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord.

I look forward to the soon coming of Jesus as the blessed hope in my heart, and I am determined to be ready to meet the Lord, and to do all in my power to witness to His loving salvation, and by life and word to help others to be ready for His glorious appearing.

I accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts, and believe that the gift of prophecy is one of the identifying marks of the remnant church.

I believe in church organization, and it is my purpose to support the church by my tithes and offerings, and by my personal effort and influence.

I believe that my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and I will honor God by caring for it, avoiding the use of that which is harmful, abstaining from all unclean foods, from the use, manufacture, or sale of alcoholic beverages, the use, manufacture, or sale of tobacco in any of its forms for human consumption, and from the misuse of or trafficking in, narcotics or other drugs.

I know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It is my purpose, by the grace of God, to order my life in harmony with these principles.

I accept the New Testament teaching of baptism by immersion, and desire to be so baptized as a public expression of faith in Christ and His forgiveness of my sins.
I accept that the Seventh-day Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy, and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship.

I desire to be a member in this local congregation of the world church.[/b]

Ladies and gentlemen it doesn't get any clearer.
They are baptized not into the body of Christ but into SDA principles,the"remnant church" as they call themselves,what a shame!!!