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Penterascals cannot be christians, the way I see it.

Shalom Shalom Lady 234.
I'm also a Messianic Jew. Have you prepared for Hanukkah. It starts next week 12 december 2009 and ends 19 December 2009.
Ahava Yeshua.

ehen! Anoda spice don enter soup.

Lady 234:

I doubt. In Exodus 20:8-11 Elohim blessed the 7th day and made it Holy. Yet Pentecostals go to church every Sunday perpetually breaking the 4th commandment. How do you want to go to Heaven when you stubbornly break Adonai's commandment every single Sunday you go to Church. Adonai made the 7th day(Saturday) shabbat not Sunday, better retrace your roots. Saturday is the Jewish Shabbat, I don't even know where you guys got the word sabbath from.

Come Discover the Jewish Jesus, Join the Messianic movement and stop celebrating Shabbat on Sunday.
Shalom Shalom. Lady 234

i'm sure that thy have their space in HELL!

Lady 234:

I doubt. In Exodus 20:8-11 Elohim blessed the 7th day and made it Holy. Yet Pentecostals go to church every Sunday perpetually breaking the 4th commandment.

It is not only Pentecostals that go to Church on Sundays - please find out.

Adonai made the 7th day(Saturday) shabbat not Sunday, better retrace your roots. Saturday is the Jewish Shabbat, I don't even know where you guys got the word sabbath from.

Christians are not under Judaism, nor are they called to observe the Jewish Shabbat - please find out.

Come Discover the Jewish Jesus, Join the Messianic movement and stop celebrating Shabbat on Sunday.

Christians are not called to celebrating any Shabbat on any day - not Saturday, not Sunday, not any day. The Messianic movement needs to rediscover themselves and know where they stand, instead of seeking attention with their middle-of-the-road adventures where they can conveniently point fingers at others.

Lady 234:

I doubt. In Exodus 20:8-11 Elohim blessed the 7th day and made it Holy. Yet Pentecostals go to church every Sunday perpetually breaking the 4th commandment. How do you want to go to Heaven when you stubbornly break Adonai's commandment every single Sunday you go to Church. Adonai made the 7th day(Saturday) shabbat not Sunday, better retrace your roots. Saturday is the Jewish Shabbat, I don't even know where you guys got the word sabbath from.

Come Discover the Jewish Jesus, Join the Messianic movement and stop celebrating Shabbat on Sunday.
Shalom Shalom. Lady 234

The seventh day was never set apart by God as a day of worship, rather the command was that it be made a day of rest the decision to worship on that day was the choice of man and NOT God's commandment. Read your bibles very well.

it is stated that there is only one way to Christ, and yet there are thousands. it is such a pity to much confusion in the House of God.

Kay 17:

it is stated that there is only one way to Christ, and yet there are thousands. it is such a pity to much confusion in the House of God.

Atleast you can see the confusion.That is a good place to start.

The population of churches exploded with the advent of pentecostalism as the no churches rose to more than 10,000 % in a little over a century.Ironically the percentage poulation of christians have not increased instead it is declining,most churches are more interested in "converting" other christians into their own denominations than to preach to non christians.

christian churches which used to be formed based on doctrinal disagreement is now formed on daily basis as more and more people now claim that "God" has spoken to them to go and form churches .

chukwudi44:

The population of churches exploded with the advent of pentecostalism as the no churches rose to more than 10,000 % in a little over a century.Ironically the percentage poulation of christians have not increased instead it is declining,most churches are more interested in "converting" other christians into their own denominations than to preach to non christians.

christian churches which used to be formed based on doctrinal disagreement is now formed on daily basis as more and more people now claim that "God" has spoken to them to go and form churches .

The good old human survival instincts got hold of them, i guess.What is the quickest way to making heaps of cash in today's naija?You guessed it, PENTERASCALISM combined with PENTEFRAUD.

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Lady 234:

@ KunleOshob
You confuse yourself. How can you say that the decision to worship on shabbat was made by man. I wonder which Bible you read.

Shalom(Peace) Lady 234

Please quote a single scripture were worship was commanded on the sabbath day. As far as i know God commanded it as a day of rest NOT worship.

Lady 234:

@ viaro
What do you mean by Christians are not called to observe the Jewish shabbat. Is God like a constitution that you guys can change whenever you like. Didn't Elohim make Saturday Shabbat and not sunday, what about the 4th commandment. Anyone that goes to church on sunday is constantly breaking the 4th commandment because the Shabbat is Saturday and not Sunday.

Lady 234, thank you. Now allow me to explain what viaro meant by "Christians are not called to celebrating any Shabbat on any day - not Saturday, not Sunday, not any day.".

(1)  First, the Jewish sabbath/shabbat was given specifically under a covenant - Judaism. Without that covenant, everything in Judaism is meaningless - nothing in the Law would make any sense at all unless it was ratified in a special way. This is the first premise in the Biblical faiths, which is well attested in Hebrews 9:17 -

            For a *will takes effect only at death,
            since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
            _{(a *will here also means a testament/covenant)}

(2)  Indeed, we find that the covenant under Judaism was ratified in a special way - by the blood of bovines (calves and goats). Here are the references:

            For when every commandment of the law had been declared
            by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats,
            with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both
            the book itself and all the people, saying,
            "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you."
             [Hebrews 9:19-20; compare with Exodus 24:8]

(3)  Judaism was given to just one group of people: the Jews. This was why Moses declared in Exodus 24:8 - "Behold the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."  Moses (as well the elders of the Jews) understood and were consistent to maintain that this covenant was specifically committed to them and to no other nation, not even the patriarchs like Abraham, Isaac or Jacob:

            'The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
            Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant,
            but with us, who are all of us here alive today.' - Deut. 5:2-3

            'He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
             He hath not dealt so with any nation - Psalm 147:19-20

             'Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel;
             I made a covenant with your fathers in the day that I brought them forth
             out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondmen' [Jer. 34:13]

(4)  The fact that Judaism was exclusive to the Jews is everywhere testified in Scripture; which is why you should not be mixing up Judaism and Christianity. One thing is for sure: the covenant of Judaism was not given Gentiles; and you cannot make Jews out of Gentiles on the basis of Judaism, for that very covenant under the Jews forbade such a thing. The one basis upon which a non-Jew could live in Judaism is as sojourners (Exo. 12:48) - and they must needs be circumcised in order to partake of any of the Mosaic Laws. That is not what Christianity was cut out to be.

(5) Even more so, God had declared numerous times that He would set aside the covenant of Judiasm - making it no longer operative. This covenant was called the covenant of Levi (Malachi 2:; and Christians are not called under the covenant of Levi. When God declares that He would make a new covenant in Jeremiah 31, He specifically said it would not be according to the covenant He made with the Jews when He brought them out of Egypt (Jer. 31:31-32) - in other words, the covenant of Judaism (the covenant of Levi) which was ratified by the blood of bovines has been set aside and is no longer operative!

(6) By asking Christians who are under the NEW covenant in Christ to again come under the old covenant of Levi is to call people back to a system that has no effect at all upon those who confess Christ.


Now, these are just the few background pointers I have for you as regards why I said that Christians are not called to celebrate or obey the Jewsih sabbath/shabbat. We are not living under a covenant ratified by the blood of bulls and goats. .  a covenant that is no longer operative. . a covenant known as the covenant of Levi. .  a covenant which could never take away sin. .  and a covenant bound to one place: the Old Jerusalem.

If you want more, viaro will be pleased to give you. Shavua Tov.

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@lady234
You still failed to show any instruction from God that worship should be done on that day. Below is God's insruction for observing the sabbath which i am sure you a aware of even though you choose to ignore it due to your brain washing at the messanic movement.
Exodus 20:8-11:

  8 “Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 You have six days each week for your ordinary work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath day of rest dedicated to the Lord your God. On that day no one in your household may do any work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

I don't see anything regarding worship in the above except you are reading a messianic movement version of the bible.

Lady 234:

@ viaro
Shalom Shalom viaro. I get your point but if you say Christians are not called to celebrate or obey the Jewish shabbat do you also mean that Christians are not called to obey the Ten commandments because keeping the shabbat is part of the ten commandments.
Shalom!

Well, Christians (both believing Jews and Gentiles) are not called to the Judaic covenant - and that is why one should first look at the basis of any covenant first, and the people to whom it is applied, before drawing any conclusions.

The Decalogue (Ten Commandments) was specifically given to Israel, the Jews according to the flesh. As such, they are contained in the Judaic covenant - that same covenant called 'the covenant of Levi'. This is why in Deuteronomy 5 where we find the Decalogue again, Moses made clear that that same covenant was given to no other people than the Jewish nation (see again verse 2).

The question now is this: are we as Christians to disobey the Ten Commandment? My answer: No. Even so, are we to go back to the covenent of Levi upon which the Decalogue was given? Again my answer: No. In as much as the Levitical covenant is no longer operative in God's testament (new covenant), we are not called to apply ourselves to the legal code of Judaism. God promised that the function and operation of the new covenant in Christ would spring from the heart where He would write His laws and commandments (Hebrews 8:10).

What's the difference? Well, in carefully considering the stipulations of the Decalogue, one finds that it is nigh impossible to even obey them today anywhere outside of Jerusalem. For example, take the Shabbat: there are quite a whole lot of stipulations given for its observance in Judaism:

  1.  no work of any kind to be done on the shabbat (Exo. 20:10)

  2.  he who does any work must be put to death (Exo. 20:11; 34:14-15)

  3.  there shall be a holy convocation/assembly on that day (Lev. 23:3)

  4.  an offering made by fire was to be made on shabbat (Lev. 23:8 )

  5.  no domestic fires to be kindled on that day - not even fore food (Exo. 35:3)

  6.  sometimes in a shabbat, Jews were to afflict their souls (Lev. 23:32 & 16:31)

  7. the shabbat was to be kept in the land of Israel which God gave them (Lev. 25:2)

  8. Burnt offerings accompany every shabbat (Numbers 28:10)

Even if we ordinarily take time to just speak about the shabbat, where is the place where we shall offer burnt offerings or offerings made by fire? Israel was warned that such could not take place anyhow and any place where they chose, but rather at the precise place where God chose to put His Name there - for which reason they were to have a holy convocation, a assembly where they gathered.

How is this the case today if Christians are to return to the covenant of Levi, and be first circumcised before they could come under the Judaistic covenant? Even so, is it not clear that believing Gentiles would not be called 'saints' but sojourners?

Please consider these issues carefully and let's read your comments.

Kol Tuv.

Sincerely, I thought that blindness in part had happened to the Jews. I'm surprised to see black people also gouging their eyes to share places with the Jews. When will you come to understand that the sabbath was made for man and not the other way round?

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@lady234
You are obviously new on this forum else you would know i am one of the most vocal anti-pentecostal/ anti-tithe christians on this forum. I really don't know much about your messanic movement, but i know that any movement that is making a big issue out of that sabbath date obviously has themselves confused and they are making doctrines out of shaff instead of focusing on the real meat of the gospel. As i have always told everyone that cares to listen all doctrines that are necessary for christian living as been taught in the new testament, the old testament is clearly a different religion / belief system. You can't just pick andd choose from the old testament and start condenmimg others who didn't pick the exact same obsolete doctrines you picked. How many of the over 600 mosaic laws to do keep in you messanic movement? Even the messiah himself said the sabbath was made for man and NOT man for the sabbath. So why this fuss over a mere date?

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lady234
I'll take it that you're ignorant of new testament passage,Romans 11v25 which says 'blindness in part is happened to Israel'. I'm not being racist. I'm also in love with Israel, O bless them. I'm simply telling you new testament truths. I suppose you're Nigerian,therefore black. You not expected to be under Judaism.
Also, it is common knowledge that the sabbath day is saturday. But point remains that we can worship God any day, where saturday or the Lord's day.

@lady234
when i say obsolete, i am refering to the over 600 ceremonial laws which was beqeauthed to the children of israel through moses and not the whole old testament as you tried to imply. These laws were meant strictly for the jewish people and not christians. If it were meant for christians, i am sure the apostles [especially Paul who was a pharisee] would have included them in their teachings to the early christians most of whom were not even Jews and were not expectd to have known these laws before their conversion. However they taught clearly that christians were not subjct to te law and that it was infact an act of faithlessness to attempt to depnd on the law to be put right with God. The verse below explains it better:

Galatians 5:4:
4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.

Lady 234:

@viaro and everyone
When i talked about keeping the shabbat, i didn't mean not working on Shabbat. Of course i know that Yeshua(Jesus) said the Shabbat was made for man and not man for the shabbat.
I rather meant the observation of Saturday as the Jewish shabbat and not sunday.

But what is so intrinsic in the day itself that it should be of great import? Why would God damn any Christian for worshipping Him on any day besides Saturday? In both the OT and NT, He gave His people instructions to worship Him on other days apart from Saturday. . and if you count them, they number all the days of the week.

Viaro, this is another subpoena, appear in court!

Are you some kind of interpol? ? ? ?

I pity pentecostals, the only thing your pastors stress in the Torah(Old Testament) is tithe

Dont you know Jesus only abolished the non-lucrative poprtions of the jewish law

The lucrative portions like tithe ,first fruit .e.t.c can go on

@ Everyone
But the truth remains, Adonai made the Seventh day(Saturday) shabbat and not the first day(Sunday).
Ahava Yeshua.