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Pope Francis - It's Better To Be Atheist Than To Be A Hypocritical Catholic - Religion (5) - Nairaland

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It's Better To Be An Atheist Than A Nigerian Christian Or Muslim - Man Says / It’s Better To Be Atheist Than Hypocritical Christian — Pope Francis / Better To Be An Atheist Than A Hypocritical Christian- Pope (2) (3) (4)

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Re: Pope Francis - It's Better To Be Atheist Than To Be A Hypocritical Catholic by RandomGuy48: 8:03am On May 24, 2019
Ubenedictus:
which council and catechism talk this one?
It's a copy/paste from another site which actually does give the citations, which are:
(34) The Most Holy Councils, Vol. XIII, column 1167.
(35) Robert Bellarmine, On the Authority of Councils, Volume 2: 266.
(36) Council of Tarragona, the Roman Catholic Church Council of 1234 A.D.
(37) Quoted in the New York Catechism.
(38) Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath, Article XI
You can tell that the person who put those quotes on the site didn't bother to verify the quotes because of how vague the above citations are, and some of them are straight up wrong. For example, if "The Most Holy Councils" is supposed to be "Sacrorum conciliorum nova et amplissima collectio" then I should mention that looking at Volume XIII, there is no column 1167. And why cite it so indirectly rather than say what the council actually was?

Anyway, a quick summary of them (I may come back to do a more detailed explanation)

#34: This one seems legitimate and was used in several councils (first was the Council of Florence, I think, though its wording was slightly different). But all it is really saying, especially if you examine the context, is that the pope is in charge of the Catholic Church, which is worldwide. The pope being in charge of the Catholic Church is not a particularly bold claim.

#35: Not from a council or catechism.

#36: From a Council, but not a "Vatican Council" (which I assume means ecumenical council) because it was a local council and only applied to its specific jurisdiction. Appears to have been passed to try to stop a bunch of bad translations that were floating around.

#37: Appears to be a false quote.

#38: One can find it (originally in Latin) as part of a larger confession of faith, though under a different name. But other parts in this confession are odd or even outright heretical, casting doubt on its authenticity. Even if it was actually used as a confession of faith, it appears to have been an obscure and barely used one considering the scant documentation for it. In any event, not a catechism or council.

I may do a more in-depth explanation on these later as I did have to do a lot of research to figure this all out, but the bottom line is that of these 5 quotes that supposedly are from "Vatican Councils" or catechisms, we find only one that is from an actual Vatican Council or catechism (it is, not coincidentally, the most benign of them all). None of the other 4 are, and at least one is basically made up.
Re: Pope Francis - It's Better To Be Atheist Than To Be A Hypocritical Catholic by RandomGuy48: 11:31pm On May 26, 2019
Okay, back. I originally meant to post this as my original post here, but wanted to get it out so I made the abbreviated version above. Here we go in a needlessly in-depth examination of the cited quotes.

“We define that the Holy Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world.” (34)
(34) The Most Holy Councils, Vol. XIII, column 1167.

Searching for this work online only turns up this citation, and a search at Worldcat for "The Most Holy Councils" turns up no such work. It's possible it could refer to "Sacrorum conciliorum nova et amplissima collectio" (which translates to something like "New and larger collection of Sacred Councils" I think), as it has more than 13 volumes and the columns are numbered. But if you look at Volume 13 (available here), you will find there is no column 1167! It stops at 1104. Oh, and for those curious, links to all volumes of this work can be found here:
http://patristica.net/mansi

Maybe it's possible they meant some other work, but if so the vagueness renders it impossible to check further. This is a sign that the person didn't bother to actually look up the source of the quote and simply repeated what they saw someone else cite.

That said, as noted, this phrase, or something extremely similar, can be found in actual ecumenical councils, like the Council of Florence and the First Vatican Council (quoting Florence), possibly others also. In any event, I'm not sure what this quote is supposed to demonstrate. I'm guessing it's trying to say that the Catholic Church and/or Pope believe themselves to be the ruler of the world, but the actual meaning (especially when read in context) is simply to state that the pope is the leader of the Catholic Church (which is worldwide), something I doubt even a non-Catholic would dispute.

“All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope .” (35)
(35) Robert Bellarmine, On the Authority of Councils, Volume 2: 266.

"On the Authority of Councils" appears to be the translation for "De Conciliorum Auctoritate" which is the name of a section in the second volume of Robert Bellarmine's Controversies, so you'd think it would be written to make that more clear. But if you turn to the page marked 266 (found here), it's not even in the section on councils. Now, when looking up information, I did find a different place that gave this quote and gave as its source "On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17". So we can turn our attention to it here. The quote appears to be this part:

"Nam omnia nomina que in Scripturis tribuuntur Christo, unde constat cum esse supra Ecclesiam, eadem omnia tribuintur Pontifici."

I only know a little Latin, so I had to rely on automated translation to get a full English translation, but it translates out to something like the quote says (Google Translate tends to struggle with Latin, but it says 'For all things are attributed to Christ in the Scriptures, the names of which, above the Church, from which it is composed out to be, all the same It is attributed to the Pope.' which seems quite close). Now, there are two considerations. First is the context. It's hard for me to make out exactly what it's saying because even if I do put it into Google Translate (which results in imperfect translations), it's a little hard to even know what to put into it because it has an odd typeface that makes some parts hard to make out. But it looks like the titles it's referring to are more specifically those in regards to church management, not any titles of divinity.

Second, Robert Bellarmine is held in very high regard, but his writings are not official teachings of the church. They certainly are neither a council or a catechism.

Speaking of Councils:

“No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language (such as French, Italian, Spanish, etc.), and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after the promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned.” (36)
(36) Council of Tarragona, the Roman Catholic Church Council of 1234 A.D.
This one is an accurate quote. I was even able to verify it in that church council book I mentioned earlier. However, it is inaccurate to call this a "Vatican Council" because it wasn't held by or at the Vatican; it was a regional council that applied only to that one region. In any event, its purpose appears to have been to curb the usage of inaccurately translated bibles floating around at the time rather than some kind of active suppression of Bible availability. This is further evidenced by the specification that it was only those in the Romance language that were to be disposed of.

“The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth …by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth.” (37)
(37) Quoted in the New York Catechism.

This one appears at first glance to be a catechism. However, if you search for New York Catechism you find one of two things:
1) People citing it as the source for this quote uncritically without information as to date, page number, author, or anything besides the name.
2) People trying to figure out what in the world Boettner (who this quote with the "New York Catechism" citation seems to go back to"wink was referring to.

Some have suggested the book "The Catholic Catechism" by Pietro Gasparri as the candidate, as it was a catechism and was published in New York. We do find something sort of like that quote in it, but nevertheless quite different. On page 98 of the book, we find:

"The Roman Pontiff is called the visible head of the Church and the Vicar of Christ on earth because, since a visible society needs a visible head, Jesus Christ made Peter, and each successor of his, to the end of the world, the visible head and the viceregent of His own power. By divine right the Roman Pontiff has over the Church a primacy not only of honour but of jurisdiction, and this both in things concerning faiths and morals and in discipline and government. The Roman Pontiff has supreme, full, ordinary, and immediate power both over each and every Church, and over each and every Pastor and his flock. The lawful successors of the Apostles are, by divine institution, the Bishops; they are set over particular churches by the Roman Pontiff, and govern them by their own proper power under his authority."
(intervening questions removed; the format of the book is a question then an answer, I simply combined the answers together; emphases added)

The bolded portions are fairly similar to what is in the alleged quotes, but even those are more a paraphrase than an actual quote. And much of the alleged quote, especially the controversial parts (e.g. the "God himself on earth" quote) isn't there at all. If this was the intended source, it's a misrepresentation of what was actually said.

It is, to be fair, possible this wasn't the work being referred to. Maybe it was some other "New York Catechism". Looking [url=https://books.google.com/books?id=SoUQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA578-IA17&dq=%22Small+Catechism%22+%22New+York%22&hl=en&ei=kxqZTMusHY2WsgPg9dStDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=snippet&q=%22New%20York%22%20%22Small%20Catechism%22%20&f=false]here[/url] and [url=https://books.google.com/books?id=b-DQAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA5-PP23&lpg=RA5-PP23&dq=%22small+new+york+catechism%22&source=bl&ots=PB53xGkN7F&sig=ACfU3U09deBlhEAG4y3PctzzkiqftlIm0A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJ3-LK5bjiAhVKWq0KHacxCwwQ6AEwAHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22small%20new%20york%20catechism%22&f=false]here[/url] we can see there was a work being sold called the "Small New York Catechism" in the late 19th century. However, no one has been able to find a copy of this work, and it unclear as to who even made it.

Ultimately, whether it's a blatant misquoting of a known work, or an alleged quote from a work no one has been able to verify even exists, it cannot be in any sense be considered reliable. Certainly, anyone who has quoted it has never bothered to verify it, because if they had they would realize it can't be verified and wouldn't use it.

“We confess that the Pope has power of changing Scripture and of adding to it, and taking from it according to his will.” (38)
(38) Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath, Article XI.

This one was astoundingly vague (again, a sign that the person who put the article together probably threw some quotes they saw online together without checking them). It appears to come from this work (XI is on the next page), which does translate out to the quote. But this is the "Confessio Romano-Catolica, in Hungaria Evangelicis publice praescripta et proposita" and I'm therefore not sure where "Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath" comes from, as it's not a translation of the actual name.

The question, however, is whether this is an actual confession by the Catholic Church. The original source for it was a book that was a list of a bunch of Catholic creeds (most of which is just things from the Council of Trent). However, there are some things in this "confession" that seem definite oddities. Some parts seem to be almost parodies of actual Catholic belief. According to V and XVII, Mary and the pope are more worthy of honor than Jesus. Someone might try to use that as proof of the excesses of Catholicism, but even if one believes Catholics give more honor to Mary and/or the pope than they deserve, they certainly don't give more than to Jesus. Furthermore, it suspiciously uses the phrase "Roman Catholic" in the confession itself. This is a term used far more often by Protestants than Catholics, and while not completely absent from official Catholic documents, is relatively rare and even then from my understanding is more of an English thing than in other languages. I can't fully rule out the possibility it was an authentic confession (although if it was, it appears to have been very limited in use), but the evidence casts doubt on its authenticity.

So... one quote from an actual "Vatican Council" (that is the most benign of the quotes and is even more benign in context) though incorrectly cited, one possibly out of context quote from a book that is neither a catechism or a council, one quote from a council but not a "Vatican Council", one quote from an alleged catechism that no one has been able to find, and one quote from a "confession" that may or may not be authentic. Not a high batting average. And all of them, in their citations, show strong evidence the compiler of these quotes put no effort into verifying them.
Re: Pope Francis - It's Better To Be Atheist Than To Be A Hypocritical Catholic by budaatum: 1:57am On May 27, 2019
Rich4god:
Me see nothing wrong in his statement....
Jesus said the same thing as the Pope said In the [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10%3A25-37&version=NIV]Parable[/url] of the Good Samaritan where the pagan worshipping non-believing not born again but good doing Samaritan of whom Christ said, "Go and do thou likewise", would inherit eternal life while the supposed God worshipping Priest and the Levite would be gnashing their teeth in hell. Unfortunately, many fail to understand the implication of this very important parable.

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