hahn:


Wait, do fish eat meat?

I think they do but in small chunks... Not​ so large that a small careful and observant fish cannot see a hook in it.

U self, u suppose understand when Christians tell fake stories to prove a point

frank317:


I appreciated it by starting my response with 'nice story's

Then i went ahead to analyze it based on my perception of ur motive behind the story

Its just a story. ...an ordinary story.

Tales by moonlight.... You remember?

frank317:


I think they do but in small chunks... Not​ so large that a small careful and observant fish cannot see a hook in it.

U self, u suppose understand when Christians tell fake stories to prove a point

The thing confuse me ooo

shadeyinka:



Physical Existence and space/time are mutually exclusive

Spiritual Existence can occur outside space and time.

I am sure we shall disagree on this but a good example is what happens in your Dreams (very similar to how things are in the spirit)

Where:

Time isn't linear and sometimes irrelevant
Position isn't absolute

You can think ofbitbin terms of Parallel Universe.

Within a dream, a person could get admission to a school, graduate and start his NYSC all within a dream. In such dream, the events could even occur in parallel and the events seem logical.

Of course, in the Physical, the dream itself could be a 2 minutes REM dream...an impossibility in real life.

You may not believe in the existence of spirit and how they operate (and you don't need to) but that is a close enough explanation of why God can exist without location. Everywhere and Somewhere at the same time!

Like I said, we don't have to agree of the possibility. It is sufficient to just understand how those who believe in God Jehovah think.

Dreams are projections made by a material being.

So by this, your spiritual world could also be projections of your "material brain".

First time I'm hearing about a Freethinking Deist.
I know of Freethinkers
I know of Deists
But the combination must be complex. So you see why I mistook you for an Atheist. Even then, you still sound very Atheistic.

Don't mind me jare.
I adhere to the deistic belief of a non-interventionist Creator.
But not fully to deism, because most of its tenets(or should i say what most deists nowadays belief) especially "modern deism" contradicts the very definition of deism.
So i no longer like to be called a deist, so i don't get misunderstood.

---

By the way, you didn't do a good job proving your predestination case.
You even fumbled when you made this statement:

If your Mum married someone else other than your Dad, you will not be here. Intact, you are here simply because one spermatozoa out of 6 million fused with a particular ovum which happened to the one ovulation pushedbout at that beautiful time.

Like God's Omniscience does not take the particular fusion of spermatozoa and ovum into knowledge.

Anyway, i've said this before and frank317 has repeated, i think you should think deeply on this issue.
Read the thread again, hopefully you will realize your logical flaws.

I've also told you that most Christians isolate omniscience when talking about this issue because it just doesn't add up, they believe that God has the will to know, but doesn't as it will be unfair and his emotions expressed in the bible will be put to question.
Even if i still have an issue with this, you can stick with this for now or read up for any logical opinion about this issue, so as not to tag "confused" outside when trying to explain this to someone else, because i know you very well, you hardly talk like this, maybe it's the "Faith" thing that's causing this issue as usual.

4kings:

Dreams are projections made by a material being.

So by this, your spiritual world could also be projections of your "material brain".


Don't mind me jare.
I adhere to the deistic belief of a non-interventionist Creator.
But not fully to deism, because most of its tenets(or should i say what most deists nowadays belief) especially "modern deism" contradicts the very definition of deism.
So i no longer like to be called a deist, so i don't get misunderstood.

---

By the way, you didn't do a good job proving your predestination case.
You even fumbled when you made this statement:

Like God's Omniscience does not take the particular fusion of spermatozoa and ovum into knowledge.

Anyway, i've said this before and frank317 has repeated, i think you should think deeply on this issue.
Read the thread again, hopefully you will realize your logical flaws.

I've also told you that most Christians isolate omniscience when talking about this issue because it just doesn't add up, they believe that God has the will to know, but doesn't as it will be unfair and his emotions expressed in the bible will be put to question.
Even if i still have an issue with this, you can stick with this for now or read up for any logical opinion about this issue, so as not to tag "confused" outside when trying to explain this to someone else, because i know you very well, you hardly talk like this, maybe it's the "Faith" thing that's causing this issue as usual.

Its almost impossible for both of us to agree on this, simply because our frame of reference are totally different.

You have a single frame of reference: the physical
And for you, nothing exists outside the physical

I have two frame of references: the physical AND the spiritual

I do not deny Physical laws BUT I also understand the rhelm of the spirit. For me, the spiritual is as real as the physical is real.

Usually, you want me to prove the spiritual with the physical: an impossibility. For the physical is a trinity of mass, space and time but the spiritual is a complex conjugate.

You want to define God in terms of mass, space and time, BUT my God exists outside mass, space and time. Like, the creator/inventor of a computer must exist outside the computer.

I guess the limitlessness of God with reference to time (foreknowledge), is unacceptable to you: but then, your world view is strictly physical, hence you cannot understand. Just like it is impossible for a human being to visualize a space of more than 3 dimensions.

In other words, if I can travel to the year 2030 and playback the movie of your life till today 28/04/2017. Then, I shadeyinka have a complete foreknowledge of every decision you will ever take up to 2030. And, it is impossible for you to confuse me:why? I have even seen your attempt of confusing me and I know what you will end up doing. Scarry?

That is the meaning of foreknowledge of God.

The fact that I could travel to 2030 did not in anyway in far that I Predestined your activities.

I do not expect you to agree with this nor to believe. No! But understand what I believe. QED. (Like I understand that Hindus see the cow as their mother).

Like God's Omniscience does not take the particular fusion of spermatozoa and ovum into knowledge.

So, God saw that particular fusion even before the would be parents were born.

shadeyinka:


Its almost impossible for both of us to agree on this, simply because our frame of reference are totally different.

You have a single frame of reference: the physical
And for you, nothing exists outside the physical

I have two frame of references: the physical AND the spiritual

I do not deny Physical laws BUT I also understand the rhelm of the spirit. For me, the spiritual is as real as the physical is real.

Usually, you want me to prove the spiritual with the physical: an impossibility. For the physical is a trinity of mass, space and time but the spiritual is a complex conjugate.

You want to define God in terms of mass, space and time, BUT my God exists outside mass, space and time. Like, the creator/inventor of a computer must exist outside the computer.

I guess the limitlessness of God with reference to time (foreknowledge), is unacceptable to you: but then, your world view is strictly physical, hence you cannot understand. Just like it is impossible for a human being to visualize a space of more than 3 dimensions.

So you choose to believe in what you can't understand and what's an impossibility in your physical existence.
I don't really have a problem with this, you are free to choose.

But why is there judgment for people that choose to reject what they don't understand, is that not unjust?

In other words, if I can travel to the year 2030 and playback the movie of your life till today 28/04/2017. Then, I shadeyinka have a complete foreknowledge of every decision you will ever take up to 2030. And, it is impossible for you to confuse me:why? I have even seen your attempt of confusing me and I know what you will end up doing. Scarry?

That is the meaning of foreknowledge of God.

The fact that I could travel to 2030 did not in anyway in far that I Predestined your activities.

I do not expect you to agree with this nor to believe. No! But understand what I believe. QED. (Like I understand that Hindus see the cow as their mother).

You keep cherry picking points.
You've excluded the fact that the time traveler is also the Creator of these events.

So, God saw that particular fusion even before the parents were born.

Yes.

4kings:

So you choose to believe in what you can't understand and what's an impossibility in your physical existence.
I don't really have a problem with this, you are free to choose.

But why is there judgment for people that choose to reject what they don't understand, is that not unjust?

It is you who who do not understand simply because it doesn't align with the strict physical worldview. I do.

I believe I have explained to you that the creator need a certain trait from His final selection. A worthy creation may have to be born by a wicked parent, hence the wicked parent has to exist for the worthy to manifest.

4kings:

You keep cherry picking points.
You've excluded the fact that the time traveler is also the Creator of these events.

Yes.

No Sir!
The time traveler did NOT create the events. His creatures created events. In other words, The Time Traveller Created people, and people made choices. I have been consistent about this all along.

Creations and Events are different.
Creations are objects events are actions and reactions of these creations.

The Producers of BBNigeria chose Efe, Bisola, TTT and others out of millions of Nigeria. They set the house rules, but the Events were generated by the Housemates.

And YES!
God saw the particular fission of Ovum and Spermatozoa even before the great grand parent were conceived.

shadeyinka:


It is you who who do not understand simply because it doesn't align with the strict physical worldview. I do.

I believe I have explained to you that the creator need a certain trait from His final selection. A worthy creation may have to be born by a wicked parent, hence the wicked parent has to exist for the worthy to manifest.

@bolded, defeats your arguments so far.
I wonder why u don't get it.

No Sir!
The time traveler did NOT create the events. His creatures created events. In other words, The Time Traveller Created people, and people made choices. I have been consistent about this all along.

Creations and Events are different.
Creations are objects events are actions and reactions of these creations.

The Producers of BBNigeria chose Efe, Bisola, TTT and others out of millions of Nigeria. They set the house rules, but the Events were generated by the Housemates.

And YES!
God saw the particular fission of Ovum and Spermatozoa even before the great grand parent were conceived.

Without an initial creation will there be a manifestation of those events?
If no, then the cause of the creation is the cause of the manifestation of the events, simple logic.

And the producers of BBNaija does not have foreknowledge of the outcome of their production, so stop using that example.

---

I really think this will still get no where, so i'll let you be with your belief.

4kings:

@bolded, defeats your arguments so far.
I wonder why u don't get it.



Without an initial creation will there be a manifestation of those events?
If no, then the cause of the creation is the cause of the manifestation of the events, simple logic.

And the producers of BBNaija does not have foreknowledge of the outcome of their production, so stop using that example.

---

I really think this will still get no where, so i'll let you be with your belief.

For me to understand you, I need to ask this question:

If God didnt have foreknowledge, but he created everything as it is today, would he still be guilty of the sometimes good and several times wicked actions of men?

shadeyinka:

For me to understand you, I need to ask this question:

If God didnt have foreknowledge, but he created everything as it is today, would he still be guilty of the sometimes good and several times wicked actions of men?

That depends on his interference with the universe.

4kings:

That depends on his interference with the universe.

You know that God seldom interferes: when He does, it is called miracles. Since you have never witnessed any miracles and infact don't believe they exist, let's take it that God never interferes.

Back to the question:
Its a simple question Sir. Would God be guilty of mans actions if He doesn't have a foreknowledge?

shadeyinka:



You know that God seldom interferes: when He does, it is called miracles. Since you have never witnessed any miracles and infact don't believe they exist, let's take it that God never interferes.

Back to the question:
Its a simple question Sir. Would God be guilty of mans actions if He doesn't have a foreknowledge?

Either he completely interferes or not.
If he doesn't then he is not guilty of man's actions.

4kings:

Either he completely interferes or not.
If he doesn't then he is not guilty of man's actions.

He doesn't usually and seldoms interfere with the activities of men. It is actually an aberration for Him to interfere. Whenever He does, it is called a Miracle!

If He interferes at will, then He probably can be blamed for all events in the world.

Man decides whether or not he want to start the Third world war: not God

shadeyinka:


He doesn't usually and seldoms interfere with the activities of men. It is actually an aberration for Him to interfere. Whenever He does, it is called a Miracle!

If He interferes at will, then He probably can be blamed for all events in the world.

Man decides whether or not he want to start the Third world war: not God

The miracle, is his will, isn't?
He is not meant to interfere even with a single tribe, and abandon the rests, and still assess their actions for judgment(based on what he thinks is right but not well communicated to everyone). That's not just.

4kings:

The miracle, is his will, isn't?
He is not meant to interfere even with a single tribe, and abandon the rests, and still assess their actions for judgment(based on what he thinks is right but not well communicated to everyone). That's not just.

Miracles are products of mortals asking the devine for what is humanly impossible.

He who doesn't know is judged according to his conscience. He who knows and does His will is helped even when he isn't perfect. He who knows His will however and chooses to kill his conscience will be asked some serious questions. LoL

4amorc:
FREE AMORC Monographs

Go To www.AMORConline.com and click on the Yellow tab to read the Rosicrucian Monographs For FREE!!!

Esteemed and Venerated Imperator-

As you may have heard, I, Pierre S. Freeman, the author of The Prisoner of San Jose and AMORC Unmasked have taken grave exception to the practices and agenda of your organization, Ancient Mystical Order Of Rosæ Crucis, known to the world as AMORC. For this reason, I extend to you the opportunity to answer personally some of the questions that have troubled me and to defend your organization from the charges I have seen fit to make against it.

DOES AMORC USE FRAUD TO GAIN AUTHORITY OVER MEMBERS?

Is it not the case that if such an historical tradition cannot be proven in the case of AMORC, even to its own members, like myself, who have achieved the highest level initiations--that AMORC, indeed, lacks the right to promote itself as a true Rosicrucian organization? Why have you never validated to me, a member who has gone through the higher initiations, this claim of historical continuity by showing me and others like me some actual, verifiable documents indicating this continuity? Why do I still completely lack any real evidence that Sir Isaac Newton, Benjamin Franklin or Francis Bacon belonged to your actual order?

Is this supposed to be a membership drive?

shadeyinka:


Miracles are products of mortals asking the devine for what is humanly impossible.

He who doesn't know is judged according to his conscience. He who knows and does His will is helped even when he isn't perfect. He who knows His will however and chooses to kill his conscience will be asked some serious questions. LoL

How are we expected to know his will when he never communicated them to us directly?

So the reasons for the starved ones in countries like Mozambique not receiving divine help, is because they don't know his will, right?

shadeyinka:



You know that God seldom interferes: when He does, it is called miracles. Since you have never witnessed any miracles and infact don't believe they exist, let's take it that God never interferes.

Back to the question:
Its a simple question Sir. Would God be guilty of mans actions if He doesn't have a foreknowledge?

Lol...I can't help but interfer ....
From all ur explanation so far, I don't think God should even interfer, he doesn't need to do miracle or should this be rephrased? Does God know he will interfer at a particular time? Are his miracle​ interventions​ base on human request part of his foreknowledge? That is, does he also already know he will interven and do miracle at a certain time in human life?
Or does he do miracle at his own will with out disrupting his foreknowledge? If so, how does his intervention (miracle) reconcile with his foreknowledge? Does it disrupt foreknowledge or are they exclusive?

4kings:

How are we expected to know his will when he never communicated them to us directly?

So the reasons for the starved ones in countries like Mozambique not receiving divine help, is because they don't know his will, right?

If God were to speak to you directly how should He do it; since He isn't fixed by mass, time and space. If He used nature, you will find a scientific explanation against it. If He used Prophets, you will say they speak unscientifically. If He spoke to men before you were born, you will say unless He speaks directly to you too.

Jesus said, "even if someone from the dead will resurrect to preach to them, they would not listen....they have prophets and teachers, let them listen to them!".

It is funny when all negative things in the world is attributed to God...like why didn't God stop the second world war!

frank317:


Lol...I can't help but interfer ....
From all ur explanation so far, I don't think God should even interfer, he doesn't need to do miracle or should this be rephrased? Does God know he will interfer at a particular time? Are his miracle​ interventions​ base on human request part of his foreknowledge? That is, does he also already know he will interven and do miracle at a certain time in human life?
Or does he do miracle at his own will with out disrupting his foreknowledge? If so, how does his intervention (miracle) reconcile with his foreknowledge? Does it disrupt foreknowledge or are they exclusive?

God doesn't do miracles. It is Men who call Gods intervention in Mens affairs miracles.

You don't think God should interfere: is just your opinion is it His?

Since you are so interested in questioning Gods motive, why dont you go to Him!

Foreknowledge simply means that: Foreknowledge!

shadeyinka:


God doesn't do miracles. It is Men who call Gods intervention in Mens affairs miracles.

You don't think God should interfere: is just your opinion is it His?

Since you are so interested in questioning Gods motive, why dont you go to Him!

Foreknowledge simply means that: Foreknowledge!

Oga, does God have foreknowledge of his own intervention?
Or does he just eject his intervention in between what he already knows?
Does his intervention change what he has already seen or is it part of what he has already seen or does it come in without changing anything?

I am not questioning any God's motive. I am questioning an idea in ur head that I find ridiculous. I am trying to understand how it makes sense to u.

shadeyinka:


If God were to speak to you directly how should He do it; since He isn't fixed by mass, time and space. If He used nature, you will find a scientific explanation against it. If He used Prophets, you will say they speak unscientifically. If He spoke to men before you were born, you will say unless He speaks directly to you too.

Jesus said, "even if someone from the dead will resurrect to preach to them, they would not listen....they have prophets and teachers, let them listen to them!".

It is funny when all negative things in the world is attributed to God...like why didn't God stop the second world war!

If God were to speak to me directly, he should come down reveal himself for the whole world to see and speak.
If the creator of the universe wishes to speak to his creation, then scientific explanation won't be any problem here.
But if someone was to encounter some strange phenomenon and attribute it to God talking to him, if it's explainable then there's a possibility that's it's not God indeed.
God should reveal himself to the whole world at a time and speak his mind, that way everyone will see and believe that there is a conscious higher being.

4kings:

If God were to speak to me directly, he should come down reveal himself for the whole world to see and speak.
If the creator of the universe wishes to speak to his creation, then scientific explanation won't be any problem here.
But if someone was to encounter some strange phenomenon and attribute it to God talking to him, if it's explainable then there's a possibility that's it's not God indeed.
God should reveal himself to the whole world at a time and speak his mind, that way everyone will see and believe that there is a conscious higher being.

You just repeated what I said would be your normal response. If that was the case, the only logical thing that will satisfy people like you is if God every five years from the creation of Adam to date to appear in the sky with a thunderous voice repeat the ten commandments for all to hear.

Unfortunately, you don't set the rules.
Electrons in my laptop don't have a say with what I do with my computer.

Unfortunately, you have derailed the post for too long. The OP was meant for Christians alone.

"If rapture took place on a Sunday"
Christians are supposed to be in church on Sundays
But will all Christians be raptures?
The answer is NO!
It isn't about RELIGION it is about having a RELATIONSHIP!

Let's close this case!

No not 70 percent but 50 percent of christian will left out , god already told us with story of 10 brides

frank317:


Oga, does God have foreknowledge of his own intervention?
Or does he just eject his intervention in between what he already knows?
Does his intervention change what he has already seen or is it part of what he has already seen or does it come in without changing anything?

I am not questioning any God's motive. I am questioning an idea in ur head that I find ridiculous. I am trying to understand how it makes sense to u.

How much of quantum physics do you know?

Is it logical to be fixed in classical physics and understand deductions from quantum physics?

Such is your case my friend.

Our rhelms are different. Therefore there can never be an agreement.

Unfortunately, you and your friend have derailed the post for too long. The OP was meant for Christians alone.

"If rapture took place on a Sunday"
Christians are supposed to be in church on Sundays
But will all Christians be raptured?
The answer is NO!
It isn't about RELIGION it is about having a RELATIONSHIP!

Let's close this case!

Rainingturtles:
No not 70 percent but 50 percent of christian will left out , god already told us with story of 10 brides

Whao!
Yours is a scary statistics.

Let them who name the name of Christ depart from lawlessness.

I pray the Lord keep you in His vineyard

shadeyinka:


How much of quantum physics do you know?

Is it logical to be fixed in classical physics and understand deductions from quantum physics?

Such is your case my friend.

Our rhelms are different. Therefore there can never be an agreement.

Unfortunately, you and your friend have derailed the post for too long. The OP was meant for Christians alone.

"If rapture took place on a Sunday"
Christians are supposed to be in church on Sundays
But will all Christians be raptured?
The answer is NO!
It isn't about RELIGION it is about having a RELATIONSHIP!

Let's close this case!

The thread cannot be meant for Christians alone when u have already claimed in this thread that your duty is to preach to everyone.
If I want to preach to only Christians go to ur church. Here is a public forum if u post something I find confusing I will ask questions.

Answer my questions and clear my doubts. Why are I avoiding them? No b u de preach? No b u know God?

frank317:


The thread cannot be meant for Christians alone when u have already claimed in this thread that your duty is to preach to everyone.
If I want to preach to only Christians go to ur church. Here is a public forum if u post something I find confusing I will ask questions.

Answer my questions and clear my doubts. Why are I avoiding them? No b u de preach? No b u know God?

You are the only one who can clear your own doubt. A teacher cannot force knowledge into the head of a student who has vowed not to learn.

Preaching is like fishing.
Does a fisherman seek for sharks in river Niger? That would be a waste of effort isn't it?

Moreover, no one has the ability to convert anybody.

So for you, I dust my sandals.