mrmrmister:
But according to your religion, if I rob or even kill in a gruesome manner, I won't be judged once I ask for forgiveness. So evil people can still escape justice.

Actually, in his religion, everybody goes to hell to be punished for their sins, including believers. After their tortures are complete, the believers are then sent to paradise. The only way to go straight to paradise is to be killed while fighting in a holy war. That's what motivates terrorists.

Seun:
Actually, in his religion, everybody goes to hell to be punished for their sins, including believers. After their tortures are complete, the believers are then sent to paradise. The only way to go straight to paradise is to be killed while fighting in a holy war. That's what motivates terrorists.

Wow!

I never knew that.

So how long will the believers spend in hell?
Is there a time frame?

frank317:


i really dont know what you are doing but your response makes me feel like it wasnt my post u responded to. or did you deliberately avoid some of the points i raised based on you OP?

what has choice or freewill got to do with what we are saying?

in your opening statement you were of the view that the only way that man can be made to live a moral life is by telling him about he punishment after life hence my response, now u are bringing in free will?

well let me flow with u and talk about choice and free will.

I want to first ask you... what is the aim of free will? what is the aim of testing us at the expense of suffering by an innocent person?
if it is Allah that gave us the free will to do anything and some are using it to do evil, what really can we humans do about it? dosent that make the whole problem of evil beyond us?

now your poorest student example is misplaced here. Lets use an innocent victim, one who has little or no control to what is happening to him exampla, a girl of 12 being molested by a 30years old man. where does free will come in for the girl? what choice did she have? and what is Allah doing about it? Yet all he does it watch this wicked man succeed in messing up this girls life and only waits to punish him after death. this makes no sense to me.

again like i said, telling people they will receive punishment after death is not the solution to evil on earth. Allah should simply not a llow evil people to succeed, that's all.

this is my issues with kind of people like you.quoting me out of context. i assume you did not read the post very well becuse if you do you will realised the post center on proving the reality of life after death rather than punishment to those who do not belive in GOD. no where does the post says you will be punished for not beliving in GOD. it only emphasised on the reality of life after death using the final judgement as a case study.

avoid your question？ hell no. you were asking for the purpose of evil on earth. i gave you the background of it by telling you GOD Ggave man the free will to choose from wrong and right and majority chooses the former while the few chooses the later.

the ball is in your court,you can now play it how you like.

you gave an evidence of a 12 years old girl been molested by 30 years old man and where does the free will come for the girl. this further proof you do not read my respond enough.

the,world chooses to be wicked ,harsh and selfish not becuse of the wish of GOD but the will of man. consequently,an innocent soul suffer along with the sinners.

you board a car of drunken driver, the car hit a nearby tree，the car explode and you die. would will you blame assuming you excape death？ am sure you will agree it is the drunken driver and not the car，the 12yrs old is innocent likewise the car but the driver is not likewise the 30 yrs old man. the innocent girl suffer with the wicked man . just like the way you and the car suffer with the drunken driver when it got an accident，it is not,the purpose of GOD to see us suffering,it is what man has chooses for himself.

A88C:
this is my issues with kind of people like you.quoting me out of context. i assume you did not read the post very well becuse if you do you will realised the post center on proving the reality of life after death rather than punishment to those who do not belive. no where does the post says you will be punished for not beliving in GOD. it only emphasised on the reality of life after death using the final judgement as a case study.

Your post did not provide even a single reality of after life and no where did i say u said people will be punished for not believing in God... where did you get that. In your post you expressly explained that the only way we can convince a man to be moral is by letting him know he will be punished after life for his sins.
the post does not prove any reality of life after death. it seems u are even confused about ur own post.

avoid your question？ hell no. you were asking for the purpose of evil on earth. i gave you the background of it by telling you GOD Ggave man the free will to choose from wrong and right and majority chooses the former while the few chooses the later.

i never said u avoided my question, i said u avoided my points.
well, free will is not an excuse for God to allow innocent kids and helpless people to suffer in the hands of wicked one.

the ball is in your court,you can now play it how you like.

you gave an evidence of a 12 years old girl been molested by 30 years old man and where does the free will come for the girl. this further you do not read my respond enough.

your response did not say anyting about this example, rather u went ahead and talked about a student who is performing bad in class, how does that relate to my example of an innocent helpless 12years old?

the,world chooses to be wicked ,harsh and selfish not becuse of the wish of GOD but the will of man. consequently,an innocent soul suffer along with the sinners.

why did the world chose to be wicked and selfish? does your God not know the reason? if an innocent soul suffer along with sinners, did he chose to suffer with them?

you board a car of drunken driver, the car hit a nearby tree，the car explode and you die. would will you blame assuming you excape death？ am sure you will agree it is the drunken driver and not the car，the 12yrs old is innocent likewise the car but the driver is not likewise the 30 yrs old man. the innocent girl suffer with the wicked man . just like the way you and the car suffer with the drunken driver when it got an accident，it is not,the purpose of GOD to see us suffering,it is what man has chooses for himself.

it is already established that the innocent 12 years old suffer. that's not my issue with u. you said man has free will and choice to chose between good and evil and will get punishment for choosing evil. Did the innocent 12year old make the choice to suffer? why is the person in the drunk drivers car not given the option to know that the car will be in an accident so that he can decide to enter or not.
why should the innocent suffer for the choice of the wicked? why does your so called almighty choice disappear once it is the innocent's time to suffer?

frank317:


is this how u proffer solution to a problem? by just making blanket statement?
the world is merciless? why is the world merciless? why are humans wicked and selfish?

your response to my post sounds like this "The reason people are wicked is because people are wicked"

why are people wicked, selfish, killing each other, why are filled with hatred?

evil emerged because of scarce means of survival. it is because being alive is a struggle.

a lion is deadly because he has to feed his family
a scorpion will sting you because he feel threatened by what u did in it's space.
a molester will molest because he is sex starved or because his has poor parental upbringing, which is usually because he was raised in a poor background or by parents who do not have the adequate training to bring them up.

scarcity is the word my brother. An evil man lacks something or is afraid of losing something.

now instead of allowing the innocent to suffer while waiting for after life to punish the wicked, Allah could have just ensured there is enough to go around for human he created, and also watch out for the helpless and innocent... this will surely reduce or eliminate evil.

But do you believe Allah can do that? NO

rather u want to blame humans and call them wicked while you forget the creator, the once who sees all, the one who gave us free will to do anything while he makes means of survival scares, the one who is testing all. No he is not to blame. Lets blame humans who are just victim of the world Allah created.

you need evidence of the world merciless,then it is unaccountable.let me give you two for a digest.

the creation of passport is to check the influence of poor country to invade rich country,therefore rich country enjoy good romance smong themselves while the poor country needs to pass the mediterianian sea of the coast of libya.many who passes this process lost thier lifes

the rich man demacate his house with long wall and fortified gate to stop inflluence of the poor even within the same,community therefore making the poor finding alternative way to penetrate the house by becoming,arm,robber and proffesional higher killer

man has wiill hatred and wickness in his heart and therefore blame circumstances for his woe.

your ability to end suffer and poverty lies within your palm and not circumstanstance.it is not by accident we came to this world,our purpose on earth is what define us as human.

A88C:
you need evidence of the world merciless,then it is unaccountable.let me give you two for a digest.

the creation of passport is to check the influence of poor country to invade rich country,therefore rich country enjoy good romance smong themselves while the poor country needs to pass the mediterianian sea of the coast of libya.many who passes this process lost thier lifes

the rich man demacate his house with long wall and fortified gate to stop inflluence of the poor even within the same,community therefore making the poor finding alternative way to penetrate the house by becoming,arm,robber and proffesional higher killer

man has wiill hatred and wickness in his heart and therefore blame circumstances for his woe.

your ability to end suffer and poverty lies within your palm and not circumstanstance.it is not by accident we came to this world,our purpose on earth is what define us as human.

you seem to like running round and round... if you have nothing to say just tell me so that I will quit responding to you.

did i ask you for evidence of the world's mercilessness? did you even read what i post?

i asked you why is the world merciless and you are giving me evidence of merciless.

if the rich is preventing the poor from enterin their space isnt it because they are trying to secure their limited means of survival?

oga, leave the koran and use your brain instead of replying me like you are in a beer parlor... i dont have time for lazy thinking.

whether the poor is into armed robbery or the rich is protecting their territory from the poor... everything boils down to scarcity of means of survival.

if you claim your God created the universe, why didnt he solve this problem. further why will he not protect the innocent and helpless? wy will he allow the chice of the wicked to succeed and not give the innocent the choice not to be a victim of the wicked. why will the 12years old not have choice to be a victim or not?
now you say my ability to suffer lies within my palm, so you think the 12 year old who got raped by a 30years old man chose to suffer?

frank317:

Your post did not provide even a single reality of after life and no where did i say u said people will be punished for not believing in God... where did you get that. In your post you expressly explained that the only way we can convince a man to be moral is by letting him know he will be punished after life for his sins.

the post does not prove any reality of life after death. it seems u are even confused about ur own post.

since you can not digest the logical point of the post i guess you want a physical example. well the inteligent mind will find his way to GOD while failure to do so by you will not mean there is no way.denial of reality does not make it unreal.


i never said u avoided my question, i said u avoided my points.
well, free will is not an excuse for God to allow innocent kids and helpless people to suffer in the hands of wicked one.

hope you recollect that i said GOD DID NOT NEED YOU BUT YOU NEED HIM. he has given you what was not even given to other animal and you therefore intend to suilt yourself by equating yourself with an animal. you have pass through the rigorous stage of learning and you still want your teacher to sit down for you to pass the test. hope you understand what you mean by that.

your response did not say anyting about this example, rather u went ahead and talked about a student who is performing bad in class, how does that relate to my example of an innocent helpless 12years old girl？

i gave an example but you failed to digest it thorougly,you cite your own case which i latet counter argue,providing the car case.

why did the world chose to be wicked and selfish? does your God not know the reason? if an innocent soul suffer along with sinners, did he chose to suffer with them？

the world choose to be wicked and merciless becuse it suilt them rather than doing good an just like the way you choose not to belive in GOD and i chooses to belive in him. the life is a test for mankind to choose who among of us is best in character. you may wish to know why he needs to test us. is like a case of a teacher, after teaching his student equally,he proceed to arrange a test for them,those who pass were presented with a gift and those who failed were asked to withdraw from the school. GOD chooses to test t us to know whom among us is best in character after man has chooses the free will



it is already established that the innocent 12 years old suffer. that's not my issue with u. you said man has free will and choice to chose between good and evil and will get punishment for choosing evil. Did the innocent 12year old make the choice to suffer? why is the person in the drunk drivers car not given the option to know that the car will be in an accident so that he can decide to enter or not.
why should the innocent suffer for the choice of the wicked? why does your so called almighty choice disappear once it is the innocent's time to suffer?

do you even get the scenario quite all right, if am to go by your logic,i have to ask all the driver at a car park that who is not drunk before boarding it. atheist with their unapplicable logic，well,as the sayng go heaven help those help themselves. note try to read from your own write up,i correct your mistake

frank317:


you seem to like running round and round... if you have nothing to say just tell me so that I will quit responding to you.

did i ask you for evidence of the world's mercilessness? did you even read what i post?

i asked you why is the world merciless and you are giving me evidence of merciless.

if the rich is preventing the poor from enterin their space isnt it because they are trying to secure their limited means of survival?

oga, leave the koran and use your brain instead of replying me like you are in a beer parlor... i dont have time for lazy thinking.

whether the poor is into armed robbery or the rich is protecting their territory from the poor... everything boils down to scarcity of means of survival.

if you claim your God created the universe, why didnt he solve this problem. further why will he not protect the innocent and helpless? wy will he allow the chice of the wicked to succeed and not give the innocent the choice not to be a victim of the wicked. why will the 12years old not have choice to be a victim or not?
now you say my ability to suffer lies within my palm, so you think the 12 year old who got raped by a 30years old man chose to suffer?

you again quote me out of contest, did i say your ability to suffer lies within yyour palm. you wanted to put word into my mouth ooh no . i said your ability to end suffering and poverty lies within your palm. is th the way you debate？than that is devilish for telling me what i did not say.

you ask me as to why the world is merciles. i try to provide the reason by citing example and you call that jumping around. wait , do you argue without providing evidence , well i see that in you. if that is the way you argue then your arguement can easily be consider gabbage.

Did i refer to quran here,this is another false accusation. please learn to learn how to argue consructively instead of insulting your opponet to win a debate.it shows your level of IQ is weak.

look at your level of thinking the,rich build gate just to protect is terriotry or what did yousay. now i belive the reason why poverty will not end,since the rich are not ready to accomodate the poor.

you will be a very poor student i guess,how many times do i want to repeat myselves that the world problem is as a result of our work.if you do not belive ,it is not my duty to force it into you. ALLAH GUIDE THOSE WHOM HE WILL.
you are too insultive and that is why i respond to you harshly. it is not my intention

A88C:


do you even get the scenario quite all right, if am to go by your logic,i have to ask all the driver at a car park that who is not drunk before boarding it. atheist with their unapplicable logic，well,as the sayng go heaven help those help themselves. note try to read from your own write up,i correct your mistake

which my logic? is it my logic that is under test here or urs? did i open a thread saying can I prove that there is life after death or that i know the creator gave us free will?
now the question "if going by your logic, i have to as all driver at a car park that who is drunk before boarding it?" is what u should have asked yourself before saying that we have free will and freedom of choice and that the ability to end suffering lies in our palms. how can the ability to end suffering lie in my palm when i have no control over a drunk driver. THINK!!

now answer the question as asked in the post u quoted and replied like u were in a hurry. I have repeated it below

it is already established that the innocent 12 years old suffer. that's not my issue with u. you said man has free will and choice to chose between good and evil and will get punishment for choosing evil. Did the innocent 12year old make the choice to suffer? why is the person in the drunk drivers car not given the option to know that the car will be in an accident so that he can decide to enter or not.
why should the innocent suffer for the choice of the wicked? why does your so called almighty choice disappear once it is the innocent's time to suffer?

A88C:
you again quote me out of contest, did i say your ability to suffer lies within yyour palm. you wanted to put word into my mouth ooh no . i said your ability to end suffering and poverty lies within your palm. is the the way you debate？than that is devilish for telling me what i did not say.

you cant dodge this oneoo... if the ability to end suffering and poverty lies in our palm why cant i do anything about a drunk driver? why cant an innocent 12 years old do anything about her 30yr old molester. how does the ability to end suffering (accident or rap.e in this case) lie in that palm of the victims i just used as example?
answer the direct question instead of trying to dodge it by claiming i am quoting u out of context.

you ask me as to why the world is merciles. i try to provide the reason by citing example and you call that jumping around. wait , do you argue without providing evidence , well i see that in you. if that is the way you argue then your arguement can easily be consider gabbage.

oga, you CANT provide a reason for something by citing example. they are not the same. if i ask you why is john blind, so you will provide me example of blind people? how does example of of something prove the reason
so i will ask again.. why is the world merciless.i am not asking for example of a merciless world. THINK
i answered that the world is merciless because means of survival is scarce and people want to hold unto what they have or acquire more to increase their chance of survival. do u agree or not.

Did i refer to quran here,this is another false accusation. please learn to learn how to argue consructively instead of insulting your opponet to win a debate.it shows your level of IQ is weak.

please stop talking about IQ here, u have not even reached the level of mentioning it.
if u were wise u will know why i mentioned the quran. but then u scream IQ when u obviously cant even think.

look at your level of thinking the,rich build gate just to protect is terriotry or what did yousay. now i belive the reason why poverty will not end,since the rich are not ready to accomodate the poor.

what? who said poverty will end? wait, so u used to believe poverty will end? how will poverty end when i already told u the means of survival is already scarce? the rich are trying to be richer and the poor are struggling to be rich, all in the struggle for limited resources. even if the poor becomes rich, they will not accommodate the poor because they know they dont really have enough. Now what is Allah doing about it? why did he create a world with scarce resources. He should do something about it instead of waiting to punish people after life for a world he created.

you will be a very poor student i guess,how many times do i want to repeat myselves that the world problem is as a result of our work.if you do not belive ,it is not my duty to force it into you. ALLAH GUIDE THOSE WHOM HE WILL.
you are too insultive and that is why i respond to you harshly. it is not my intention

oga, i have been arguing in a civil way with you. I never uttered a word of insult to u. please start from the beginning and say where i even insulted u. I am really surprised that u actually accused me for being very insultive when i have not insulted you. this is what u guys do when ur belief have been challenged. u turn around and say u have been insulted.

back to topic... if the problem of the world is our work...what did the innocent 12years old do to be raped (what was her work that she deserved being molested, how did her work result to her being molested)
this is a civil question, i hope u dont find it insutlive

A88C:
is inevitable. i and you will taste it

yeah sure

Just because the intelligent are the ones that believe in none existence of God,so they had peace.


When the stupid believe in been an athiest,i wonder what the world will turn into (corrupt,smelly,tyrannic,drunkard,sinners who would blive their is no God,and had to live their life to the foolest).


And the worst part is,the intelligent blind that iniates them to being an atheist will find it very hard to induce fear of this petty (drinking,homosexuality,inscent,tyrannic living,lieing,bearing false witness e.t.c) misbehaviour in them.


They believe in theories that might still be overthrown,just like that of isaac newton.


#SHIOR @seun , @adepeter26 and partners

frank317:

you cant dodge this oneoo... if the ability to end suffering and poverty lies in our palm why cant i do anything about a drunk driver? why cant an innocent 12 years old do anything about her 30yr old molester. how does the ability to end suffering (accident or rap.e in this case) lie in that palm of the victims i just used as example?
answer the direct question instead of trying to dodge it by claiming i am quoting u out of context.


oga, you CANT provide a reason for something by citing example. they are not the same. if i ask you why is john blind, so you will provide me example of blind people? how does example of of something prove the reason
so i will ask again.. why is the world merciless.i am not asking for example of a merciless world. THINK
i answered that the world is merciless because means of survival is scarce and people want to hold unto what they have or acquire more to increase their chance of survival. do u agree or not.


please stop talking about IQ here, u have not even reached the level of mentioning it.
if u were wise u will know why i mentioned the quran. but then u scream IQ when u obviously cant even think.


what? who said poverty will end? wait, so u used to believe poverty will end? how will poverty end when i already told u the means of survival is already scarce? the rich are trying to be richer and the poor are struggling to be rich, all in the struggle for limited resources. even if the poor becomes rich, they will not accommodate the poor because they know they dont really have enough. Now what is Allah doing about it? why did he create a world with scarce resources. He should do something about it instead of waiting to punish people after life for a world he created.



oga, i have been arguing in a civil way with you. I never uttered a word of insult to u. please start from the beginning and say where i even insulted u. I am really surprised that u actually accused me for being very insultive when i have not insulted you. this is what u guys do when ur belief have been challenged. u turn around and say u have been insulted.

back to topic... if the problem of the world is our work...what did the innocent 12years old do to be raped (what was her work that she deserved being molested, how did her work result to her being molested)
this is a civil question, i hope u dont find it insutlive

firstly i appreciate you accept you quoted me out of contest. i said your ability to end suffering and poverty lies in your palm and not your ability to suffer lies in your palm as you rightly correct。

now to your question. why cant you do anything about the drunken driver or why cant the innocent 12 years old girl also avoid the rape if your abilities trully lies in your palm. do you know what you just mean, it is like asking a student who went on excursion and suddenly invove in anccident why could he not have known the accident will occur？ do you want him to practice sorcery before embarking on the,journey？ or you want the innocent girl to be pre -inform about the 30 years old man who is about to rape her.your logic,tantamount to magic and it is invalid.

you said i dont need to give example to back the reason why the world is merciless.
you come up with an example. stating that i can not provide cases of example of blind people to give reason for john blindness. this is very poor of you. in the field of medicine why other people are blind may give reason to why john is blind therefore a good doctor may use a sample case from other patient to acertain john blindness.

so true your IQ is weak at least so far,the explanation you have given to counter my claim can be consider ilogical from a clever atheist like you.

how do you come with the philosophy proof that poverty can not end. let me tell you something pratically . if the few rich in our society can contribute 1 over 10 of their earning to the poor,the world will have been a better place. you may argue why should rich give to the pood and i will tell you that is the duty of everyone to care and show mercy and love to one another according to GOD law in respect of either you are poor or rich, weak or strong.

you finally claim you have been arguing in civil way when you accused me of reasoning like someone in the beer parlour and so many insuilt i can not capture.
back to the topic as you rightly stated. the logical explanation of the dunken driver is enough to deal with that so far you have not been able to refute the logic crittically.

mrmrmister:


Wow!

I never knew that.

So how long will the believers spend in hell?
Is there a time frame?

I do not know where seun got his claim from but i assume he got it from the enemy of,islam . a beliver will never taste the punishement of hell even for a nano except a beliver who commited injustice and and failed to repent. GOD IS NEVER UNJUST TO THE LAST DEGREE

Seun:
Actually, in his religion, everybody goes to hell to be punished for their sins, including believers. After their tortures are complete, the believers are then sent to paradise. The only way to go straight to paradise is to be killed while fighting in a holy war. That's what motivates terrorists.

where do you get your claim from. i assume it is from enemy of islam. a beliver will not taste the punishment of hell even for a nono except the beliver commited injustice and seek no repentance

A88C:
firstly i appreciate you accept you quoted me out of contest. i said your ability to end suffering and poverty lies in your palm and not your ability to suffer lies in your palm as you rightly correct。

ok, even though it still makes no sense to me, but i will let it pass

now to your question. why cant you do anything about the drunken driver or why cant the innocent 12 years old girl also avoid the rape if your abilities trully lies in your palm. do you know what you just mean, it is like asking a student who went on excursion and suddenly invove in anccident why could he not have known the accident will occur？ do you want him to practice sorcery before embarking on the,journey？ or you want the innocent girl to be pre -inform about the 30 years old man who is about to rape her.your logic,tantamount to magic and it is invalid.

i should be asking you that. it only shows that sometimes our choices are limited. sometimes we do not really have choice, we dont really have the freewill o control our lives and this makes me doubt it when u say Allah gave us choice. Now the big question is... what is Allah doing about those issues that are not our fault or situations we have no control over? why does he not intervene rather than just waiting to punish the perpetrator after death as u said in your OP.

you said i dont need to give example to back the reason why the world is merciless.
you come up with an example. stating that i can not provide cases of example of blind people to give reason for john blindness. this is very poor of you. in the field of medicine why other people are blind may give reason to why john is blind therefore a good doctor may use a sample case from other patient to acertain john blindness.

whats this? I didnt not come up with any example of why the world is merciless, I came up with reason why the world is merciless. U need to understand the difference between reason and example. perhaps try google
even if medical doctor bring up examples of other blind people, they cannot proffer a solution if they dont understand reason why people are blind. seriously should i stress this?

let me school u...
reason people are blind... infection, physical puncture of the eyeball, sickness like measles, over exposure to bright light.
example of blind people... Blind John, blind beggars on the street, Steve wonder,

see the difference.

i ask u why are people merciless and u give me example of merciless people. but i gave u my thought on why people are meciless and u call is an example... seriously?

so true your IQ is weak at least so far,the explanation you have given to counter my claim can be consider ilogical from a clever atheist like you.

isnt it funny? u cannot differentiate the difference between a reason for someting and an example of something... yet my IQ is weak... i agree. i don hear

how do you come with the philosophy proof that poverty can not end. let me tell you something pratically . if the few rich in our society can contribute 1 over 10 of their earning to the poor,the world will have been a better place. you may argue why should rich give to the pood and i will tell you that is the duty of everyone to care and show mercy and love to one another according to GOD law in respect of either you are poor or rich, weak or strong.

this is not a dream island. this is reality my brother.
means of survival is scarce. even if the rich shares just 1% of what they have with the poor, the poor will still be poor and will always need more. At a time the rich will stop giving and the struggle continues. Allah gave such a useless law after providing limited resources... didnt he know this was impossible given the state of things. the rich dont even satisfied enough to give out because they are not sure of tomorrow... what are u then saying?

you finally claim you have been arguing in civil way when you accused me of reasoning like someone in the beer parlour and so many insuilt i can not capture.

i repeat i have never insulted you in our chat, like i said quote me where i insulted you and i will apologise. saying u were reasoning like someone in beer palour implied that u were too busy and carried away to read and reply my post. I never intended to insult u. I take beer and cannot use my lifestyle as an insult to another.

back to the topic as you rightly stated. the logical explanation of the dunken driver is enough to deal with that so far you have been able to refute the logic crittically.

well, its either we have full choice or partial choice... if a drunk drivers choice affects my life without God given me the opportunity to use my gift of choice, then choice is actually limited hence the the question... what is God doing about situations we cannot implement our gift of choice to decide what happens to us?

frank317:

ok, even though it still makes no sense to me, but i will let it pass


i should be asking you that. it only shows that sometimes our choices are limited. sometimes we do not really have choice, we dont really have the freewill o control our lives and this makes me doubt it when u say Allah gave us choice. Now the big question is... what is Allah doing about those issues that are not our fault or situations we have no control over? why does he not intervene rather than just waiting to punish the perpetrator after death as u said in your OP.


whats this? I didnt not come up with any example of why the world is merciless, I came up with reason why the world is merciless. U need to understand the difference between reason and example. perhaps try google
even if medical doctor bring up examples of other blind people, they cannot proffer a solution if they dont understand reason why people are blind. seriously should i stress this?

let me school u...
reason people are blind... infection, physical puncture of the eyeball, sickness like measles, over exposure to bright light.
example of blind people... Blind John, blind beggars on the street, Steve wonder,

see the difference.

i ask u why are people merciless and u give me example of merciless people. but i gave u my thought on why people are meciless and u call is an example... seriously?


isnt it funny? u cannot differentiate the difference between a reason for someting and an example of something... yet my IQ is weak... i agree. i don hear


this is not a dream island. this is reality my brother.
means of survival is scarce. even if the rich shares just 1% of what they have with the poor, the poor will still be poor and will always need more. At a time the rich will stop giving and the struggle continues. Allah gave such a useless law after providing limited resources... didnt he know this was impossible given the state of things. the rich dont even satisfied enough to give out because they are not sure of tomorrow... what are u then saying?


i repeat i have never insulted you in our chat, like i said quote me where i insulted you and i will apologise. saying u were reasoning like someone in beer palour implied that u were too busy and carried away to read and reply my post. I never intended to insult u. I take beer and cannot use my lifestyle as an insult to another.


well, its either we have full choice or partial choice... if a drunk drivers choice affects my life without God given me the opportunity to use my gift of choice, then choice is actually limited hence the the question... what is God doing about situations we cannot implement our gift of choice to decide what happens to us?

please do not let it pass, reason it critically or perhaps ask clever question as what is the way forward.

you deserve the question by what you mean.being able to know an event before it occur is sorcery and not what has been bestow upon man. man as no freewill you claim？ i assume by your concept ,you can not diffrentiate what is wrong and right 。 i am not an animal . i am bless with that ability.

it is Strange that you take pride in asking questions and yet you have stop to ask the most important question WHAT IS YOUR PURPOSE ON EARTH. the answer to this question alone wiill solve all the numerous question you have. if you still think our comming to this world is by chance then your life has no purpose beyound the fulfilment of your personal desire.consequently your desire become your god in which you obey and submit to instead of the most supreme GOD

so you claimed the sample cases as no usefulness if they do not get the solution. am dissapointed you are debating these simple logic. getting the sample cases is a part of solving major sickness. how will the doctor be able to know for example between an appolo and eye river blindness. two blind patient might be facing diffrent symptoms. a good doctor is espected to match each symptoms of each blind patient with available data of any similar case before he could procced on administering drug or whatever.

you rush to school me as you claim.
i am not a novice of the medicine. i am recently working on an application called symptoms and disease database.

you mean i can not diffrentiate between between reason for something or giving sample for something. i dont get what you,mean you could have school me just like you school yourself on blindness.

not a dream land. yes it is a a land of reality where everythying can be possible so far you want it and not by circumstances. the 1 over 10 percernt earning i gave as an example is a pratical fact. it will make the world a better place. i agree it with you some will still remain poor but more will be taken out of poverty and those who remain poor chooses to be poor where there is much oppurtunity. this logic further proof the essence of free will.

i am not interested to know if you drink beer or not. that is what you say to me and it is simply an insult. carrried away？ not at all. you failed to reason the logic out of my post. just so mch carried away with your interest


it is not about what is GOD doing about it. it is all about what choice of the will you have you have choosen to take after it has been given to you.

If anyone needs religion to know what is good from bad. What you lack is Empathy. Not religion

A88C:
please do not let it pass, reason it critically or perhaps ask clever question as what is the way forward.

no need u are already giving urself away in your below posts.

you deserve the question by what you mean.being able to know an event before it occur is sorcery and not what has been bestow upon man. man as no freewill you claim？ i assume by your concept ,you can not diffrentiate what is wrong and right 。 i am not an animal . i am bless with that ability.

I know knowin events before it occurs is not possible, but when u say man has choice to determine what happens to him you cant be selective. You still have to explain what choice an innocent powerless young victim of a rape case has. explain it since u believe Allah gave us choice.

it is Strange that you take pride in asking questions and yet you have stop to ask the most important question WHAT IS YOUR PURPOSE ON EARTH. the answer to this question alone wiill solve all the numerous question you have. if you still think our comming to this world is by chance then your life has no purpose beyound the fulfilment of your personal desire.consequently your desire become your god in which you obey and submit to instead of the most supreme GOD

i dont subscribe to a divine purpose on earth. I didnt reach any agreement with any being before i came here, i found my self here so i decide what my purpose will be based on who i have become over the years. my priority is me and my loved one and friends.My desire is provide for my myself, loved ones and future generation.
I have no supreme God.. i rather mu=y desire be my God than worship a God I have never been in contact with.
Even you that believe we didnt come here by chance and have a purpose have just been making up baseless theories of freedom of choice yet you cant answer specific questions that i have been asking. What really is the purpose of believing we didnt come here by chance? what does that do for u? it does not make u a better person than me in any way.

so you claimed the sample cases as no usefulness if they do not get the solution. am dissapointed you are debating these simple logic. getting the sample cases is a part of solving major sickness. how will the doctor be able to know for example between an appolo and eye river blindness. two blind patient might be facing diffrent symptoms. a good doctor is espected to match each symptoms of each blind patient with available data of any similar case before he could procced on administering drug or whatever.

i didnt say getting sample case is useless and u know i never said that... i just said if u are ask to give reason for something, u dont go about giving example of that thing. they are not the same thing.
Me: give me the reason why a television works
You: examples of televisions are: samsung tv, panasonic, and LG.
is that how questions are answered in ur school?
reason why something works is not the same as an example of that thing period.
i will not respond to this very baseless arguement again. if u dont know the difference between example and reason, then u have no business opening a thread to tell us about after life

you rush to school me as you claim.
i am not a novice of the medicine. i am recently working on an application called symptoms and disease database.

you mean i can not diffrentiate between between reason for something or giving sample for something. i dont get what you,mean you could have school me just like you school yourself on blindness.

yes, you cannot differentiate between reason and example. if you can, you wouldnt be giving me example of a meciless society when i asked of reason humans are merciless. yet you are arguing with me and calling my IQ low.

not a dream land. yes it is a a land of reality where everythying can be possible so far you want it and not by circumstances. the 1 over 10 percernt earning i gave as an example is a pratical fact. it will make the world a better place. i agree it with you some will still remain poor but more will be taken out of poverty and those who remain poor chooses to be poor where there is much oppurtunity. this logic further proof the essence of free will.

the exmple u gave is not a practical fact because it has never been achieved in human history just in ur head. If you are yet to understand that recources for living are scarce, how can u understand that what u propose is not possible.. continue in ur dream land and wait or the day all rich people will share their hard earning earnings with the poor. and good luck with that dream.

i am not interested to know if you drink beer or not. that is what you say to me and it is simply an insult. carrried away？ not at all. you failed to reason the logic out of my post. just so mch carried away with your interest

ok no vex,sorry for saying that.
I have given reason to logic the best way i ca and i am yet to understand why despite u saying we have freedom and choice, you cant explain why the innocent victim of a rape cant use that choice.

it is not about what is GOD doing about it. it is all about what choice of the will you have you have choosen to take after it has been given to you.

So what choice does an innocent rape victim have after it has been give to her? what choice of will did she have before she became over powered and raped? did she have choice at that time or not? or did the choice almighty God gave her run away? really of what purpose is choice when it becomes useless for such innocent rape victims?

@op,

You have no evidence but you have made several ludicrous claims!!!

Wilgrea7:


hello A88C..... permit me to clear a misconception

morality is not supposed to be and should never be hinged on the threat of punishment or hope of reward... I'm a Christian.. although nondenominational.... but i believe in life after death... but even still... my morality is not hinged on the threat of hell... if you avoid bad because you want to avoid punishment, then it means you don't really dislike that bad deed... you don't just want to get punished... its like saying that anyone who licks ice cream will be shot... you avoid licking ice cream not because the ice cream is poisonous or anything but because you don't just want to get shot
similarly... if you do good just because you want a mansion in heaven(for Christians) or 72 wives(muslims){no offence intended}.. then it shows how self-centered you are... my pastor was talking about mansions in heaven on Sunday and how we'll have servants etc.. i could see the smile on the face of my Christian brethren but i knew it was wrong because we were only being told to avoid sin because of a mansion and servants etc
.. its a self centered view..

something isn't primarily bad because of the punishment attached to the deed... its bad because of other reasons... like effect on people or oneself, what you wouldn't want someone to do to you etc although conditions apply in few cases.. I'm not a guru on morality or anything... i really look forward to the day ill watch a real discussion on morality between a theist well grounded in it and somebody like hopefullandlord... until that day..

Perfect

frank317:

no need u are already giving urself away in your below posts.


I know knowin events before it occurs is not possible, but when u say man has choice to determine what happens to him you cant be selective. You still have to explain what choice an innocent powerless young victim of a rape case has. explain it since u believe Allah gave us choice.



i dont subscribe to a divine purpose on earth. I didnt reach any agreement with any being before i came here, i found my self here so i decide what my purpose will be based on who i have become over the years. my priority is me and my loved one and friends.My desire is provide for my myself, loved ones and future generation.
I have no supreme God.. i rather mu=y desire be my God than worship a God I have never been in contact with.
Even you that believe we didnt come here by chance and have a purpose have just been making up baseless theories of freedom of choice yet you cant answer specific questions that i have been asking. What really is the purpose of believing we didnt come here by chance? what does that do for u? it does not make u a better person than me in any way.


i didnt say getting sample case is useless and u know i never said that... i just said if u are ask to give reason for something, u dont go about giving example of that thing. they are not the same thing.
Me: give me the reason why a television works
You: examples of televisions are: samsung tv, panasonic, and LG.
is that how questions are answered in ur school?
reason why something works is not the same as an example of that thing period.
i will not respond to this very baseless arguement again. if u dont know the difference between example and reason, then u have no business opening a thread to tell us about after life


yes, you cannot differentiate between reason and example. if you can, you wouldnt be giving me example of a meciless society when i asked of reason humans are merciless. yet you are arguing with me and calling my IQ low.


the exmple u gave is not a practical fact because it has never been achieved in human history just in ur head. If you are yet to understand that recources for living are scarce, how can u understand that what u propose is not possible.. continue in ur dream land and wait or the day all rich people will share their hard earning earnings with the poor. and good luck with that dream.


ok no vex,sorry for saying that.
I have given reason to logic the best way i ca and i am yet to understand why despite u saying we have freedom and choice, you cant explain why the innocent victim of a rape cant use that choice.


So what choice does an innocent rape victim have after it has been give to her? what choice of will did she have before she became over powered and raped? did she have choice at that time or not? or did the choice almighty God gave her run away? really of what purpose is choice when it becomes useless for such innocent rape victims?

no need you say. i will still advice you to thibk deep about it. hopefully your response below should be logical enough for me to belive you are making sense.

you dont know does not mean is not real, failure to acknowledge reality does not mean it is absence. again the concept of the drunken driver can refute what you mean by what choice does the innocent girl has.

at least you agree knowing an event before it occur is not possible becuse it will amount to sorcery. again and again the concept of a drunken driver and innocent passenger refute your idealogy.

you said you dont subscribe to a divine purpose on earth right.i see the strenght of your logic here.there is no ultimate,value and hope if your life is to simply live by your desire as you rightly put it and later end up in the grave. it will simply mean all what you do and aspire have no value. therefore it does not matter if you love your family as you stated or strive for them.

even your computer or phone you use in typing has a purpose. most of the inanimate object do. what about you？

accepting no purpose of life rather than to take care of yourself and your love one is a self defeating.

good you are now defeating yourself so if you do concider the usefulness of sample test why dont you recongnised it in my evidence. or you do it simply because you,want to,argue. a reason why a telivision work is simply becuse it has an engine that was built purposely for it to work. example of working telivision are samsung, lg and panasonic. do not buy toshiba product becuse it does not work properly. what i just do here is to strenghten the importance of sample wben you want to make a case.yes that is how a good school should ask question. you have to give a reason as to why it is. i see you are having a challange here.

funny. you want me to give you why without a reason. in this junction let me enlighthen you a little in grammar there is no two word that are the same,they make look similar but they are not the same. if i give you why i should be able to give you reason. for example. why do student failed the recent exam？ my why. becuse they did not study.my reason. study is very difficult for student especially during examination period.hope you understand what i mean here.

it has never been achieved becuse it has never been used. a society that adopt it will benefit from it. why is it pratical？it is becuse the logic behind it is sound for example a community of about 10 where the rich are just two and the remaning are poor.if the two,rich people,should donate 1 over 10 of their weath to the remaning 8 poor. it will,mean each poor people will have 0.0125 of the rich man wealth.hence that will put stop to a poverty.

apology accepted. but you have also failed to reason logically with my the case of the drunken driver and innocent victim.

the case of the drunken driver and innocent,passenger is enough to give a logical meaning to that reason.

yemimajid:
If anyone needs religion to know what is good from bad. What you lack is Empathy. Not religion

do you understand what,you just type. as for me i dont know what you are trying to argue.

Niflheim:
@op,

You have no evidence but you have made several ludicrous claims!!!

i guess yoiu want a materialistic evidence.that post is enough for the logical mind. the denial of reality does not make it unreal.pls point out one ludicrous claim in the post

A88C:
do you understand what,you just type. as for me i dont know what you are trying to argue.

You do not need to have a religion before you know that doing a thing is good or bad... you only need to have empathy...

yemimajid:
You do not need to have a religion before you know that doing a thing is good or bad... you only need to have empathy...

if that is is the case how will you convince influential and powerful criminal who does not consider emphathy logical that robbery is bad

A88C:


you dont know does not mean is not real, failure to acknowledge reality does not mean it is absence. again the concept of the drunken driver can refute what you mean by what choice does the innocent girl has.

I don't know what? I don't think the first line is a response to anything i posted.
Pls answer my question...If u say the creator gave us the gift of choice...What choice did the guy who unknowingly enters a drunken driver's car or a young innocent girl have at the time she got molested by a man older and stronger than her. Just answer.

at least you agree knowing an event before it occur is not possible becuse it will amount to sorcery. again and again the concept of a drunken driver and innocent passenger refute your idealogy.

Which my ideology? My ideology here is that no creator gave us anything like choice... The ideology in question is ur claim that creator gave us choice, hence my question... What choice did the rape or accident victims have?

you said you dont subscribe to a divine purpose on earth right.i see the strenght of your logic here.there is no ultimate,value and hope if your life is to simply live by your desire as you rightly put it and later end up in the grave. it will simply mean all what you do and aspire have no value. therefore it does not matter if you love your family as you stated or strive for them.

How does it not matter? Which hat did u pull this nonsense logic from? Do i not feel pain? Do i not feel emotionally hurt when my loved once are hurt? So u think because i don't care about any Ultimate value, therefore​ i will not feel pain and will not be affected by the hurt of my loved ones?
What has Ultimate value got to do with my emotions as human?
I don't subscribe to any after life anything, the life i know is this one and i try to make it as happy as i can, how? By enjoying myself the best way i can, by loving passionately, but seeing smiles in the face of my loved ones... All these have nothing to do with any after life for me.

even your computer or phone you use in typing has a purpose. most of the inanimate object do. what about you？

I determine my own purpose... What's ur point?

accepting no purpose of life rather than to take care of yourself and your love one is a self defeating.

How?

good you are now defeating yourself so if you do concider the usefulness of sample test why dont you recongnised it in my evidence. or you do it simply because you,want to,argue. a reason why a telivision work is simply becuse it has an engine that was built purposely for it to work. example of working telivision are samsung, lg and panasonic. do not buy toshiba product becuse it does not work properly. what i just do here is to strenghten the importance of sample wben you want to make a case.yes that is how a good school should ask question. you have to give a reason as to why it is. i see you are having a challange here.

Like i said if u don't know the difference between example and reason, use Google.
After using it, tell me the reason u think humans are heartless, selfish , and evil to each other. Don't give me example of wicked human... From ur own reasoning , why are humans evil.

funny. you want me to give you why without a reason. in this junction let me enlighthen you a little in grammar there is no two word that are the same,they make look similar but they are not the same. if i give you why i should be able to give you reason. for example. why do student failed the recent exam？ my why. becuse they did not study.my reason. study is very difficult for student especially during examination period.hope you understand what i mean here.

Pls i don't know if this post is for another... I have never asked to give me the "why" without "reason" (whatever that means). I said give me reason and not example. Gosh!!!!!
Give me REASON why humans are evil, don't give me EXAMPLE of evil humans... Which one is why without reason again?

it has never been achieved becuse it has never been used. a society that adopt it will benefit from it. why is it pratical？it is becuse the logic behind it is sound for example a community of about 10 where the rich are just two and the remaning are poor.if the two,rich people,should donate 1 over 10 of their weath to the remaning 8 poor. it will,mean each poor people will have 0.0125 of the rich man wealth.hence that will put stop to a poverty.

Yes it's a nice idea,but it is not possible and that's why it has never been achieved in any human society. So keep on dreaming. Means of survival is limited...Tell Allah to solve that first instead of asking the rich to give their hard earned earning to the poor

apology accepted. but you have also failed to reason logically with my the case of the drunken driver and innocent victim.

Answer my question in that above

the case of the drunken driver and innocent,passenger is enough to give a logical meaning to that reason.

Go and read my question again and this time answer.

A88C:
if that is is the case how will you convince influential and powerful criminal who does not consider emphathy logical that robbery is bad

is religion doing a good job convincing these influential and powerful criminal that robbery is bad.. I doubt it.. when you don't have empathy or compassion, religion cannot stop anything bad that you feel like doing... you as an example, when you think, don't let me steal that stuff, look deeper, it is because you have empathy, nd feel for the real owner, not because you are a Muslim or Christian.. or aren't there Christian thieves, or Moslem ones?

yemimajid:
You do not need to have a religion before you know that doing a thing is good or bad... you only need to have empathy...

correct!

DOCTUFOS: Deorum 8:1-6

1. And when Krish was of age, he began to teach them deep things about morality, saying, every homo has the instinct of goodness in him at birth.
2. But they go corrupt by the doctrines they hear here and there.
3. When a child is little, he is born without the idea of iniquity.
4. Amazingly, he does what is right most of the time, because he has no idea of what iniquity is.
5. But when he knows that something is called evil, he becomes a victim of it himself.
6. Now, be like the children. Be your own self all the time and don’t be like other people. Live your lives in happiness and not in mishap.

yemimajid:
is religion doing a good job convincing these influential and powerful criminal that robbery is bad.. I doubt it.. when you don't have empathy or compassion, religion cannot stop anything bad that you feel like doing... you as an example, when you think, don't let me steal that stuff, look deeper, it is because you have empathy, nd feel for the real owner, not because you are a Muslim or Christian.. or aren't there Christian thieves, or Moslem ones?

Pls tell him...If possible, quote this again.

A88C:
if that is is the case how will you convince influential and powerful criminal who does not consider emphathy logical that robbery is bad

People that lack empathy have a diagnosis, they are called psychopaths and religion doesn't cure that.

frank317:

I don't know what? I don't think the first line is a response to anything i posted.
Pls answer my question...If u say the creator gave us the gift of choice...What choice did the guy who unknowingly enters a drunken driver's car or a young innocent girl have at the time she got molested by a man older and stronger than her. Just answer.


Which my ideology? My ideology here is that no creator gave us anything like choice... The ideology in question is ur claim that creator gave us choice, hence my question... What choice did the rape or accident victims have?


How does it not matter? Which hat did u pull this nonsense logic from? Do i not feel pain? Do i not feel emotionally hurt when my loved once are hurt? So u think because i don't care about any Ultimate value, therefore​ i will not feel pain and will not be affected by the hurt of my loved ones?
What has Ultimate value got to do with my emotions as human?
I don't subscribe to any after life anything, the life i know is this one and i try to make it as happy as i can, how? By enjoying myself the best way i can, by loving passionately, but seeing smiles in the face of my loved ones... All these have nothing to do with any after life for me.


I determine my own purpose... What's ur point?


How?


Like i said if u don't know the difference between example and reason, use Google.
After using it, tell me the reason u think humans are heartless, selfish , and evil to each other. Don't give me example of wicked human... From ur own reasoning , why are humans evil.


Pls i don't know if this post is for another... I have never asked to give me the "why" without "reason" (whatever that means). I said give me reason and not example. Gosh!!!!!
Give me REASON why humans are evil, don't give me EXAMPLE of evil humans... Which one is why without reason again?


Yes it's a nice idea,but it is not possible and that's why it has never been achieved in any human society. So keep on dreaming. Means of survival is limited...Tell Allah to solve that first instead of asking the rich to give their hard earned earning to the poor


Answer my question in that above


Go and read my question again and this time answer.

there is this saying that if you can not convince a naive mind for five minit . you can not do it for five centuries. the logic behind the story,of the drunken driver refuted your claim.until you can come with a single argument to debunk it. if not i will consider it as a part of self defeating.

which idealogy？ you forget so soon,let me quickly remind you.you were of the veiw that,the victim of the accident both passenger and the innocent girl should have been able to avoid the casualty if they trully have the freewill which i counter argue that it will amount to sorcery if that is the case. in this way you defeat your own logic.

i repaeat again no ultimate value and hope if your life is to simply live by your desire alone,what will be the significance of a life you live to die and end up as a worm in the grave？it will be total useless.

you determine your own personal life？ i see your concept of belif is what causes self center,all for me alone ,i dont care attitude becuse no good moral value is consider. all you live for is just your personal desire and not on divine instruction. this your attitude is what is causing problem in our society today. the rapist,killer and sort of criminal do not care about other so far what they do satisfy their personal desire.

how is it self defeating to you？ it is self defeating becuse it center all on your personal selfishness and not base on any moral value.

you still repeat the gabbage again, ok let say for the sake of argument explain it better than what i just posted？diffrence between reason and why？ i do not provide any personal reason majority choose to take the wrong side of the free-will. what i presnted so far is what is generally acceptable unless you want to denial it.

you are twisting the question now. first it was why is the world merciless ,now it is give,me the reason world is merciless. why are you doing this？ do you want to argue or learn？ as for me i argue while learning.

you failed to tell me the difrence between why and reason. you are referring me to google but i do justice to it even without consulting google.have i commited an error here？


At least you agree 1 over 10 logic is a nice idea（self defeating）do not say it is not possible becuse it has not been practiced，you couild only argue it after it is apply and failed to correct its purpose， you are repeating this concept of scarcity too much， where do you learn it from， is it a book or your understanding， i need to correct you on this，resources are abundantly available ， some have about,100percent,of what should belong,to both of us，it is happening in your country and likewise mine，and you know that， the reason of scarcity is simply becuse of your personal comcept SELF DESIRE INTSTEAD OF DIVINE INSTRUCTION， there is much abundant of ALLAH blessing for ,mamkind but the self desire ones has keep it to themselves alone，

what question again，it is not necceasry you accept my response， all i know is that justice has been done to it，it is left for you to take or reject，

the question,has been answer in full. take it,or reject it. you have the free-will.