jagunlabi:

This question will have any meaning only if evolution were to be permanently and constantly linear in it's flux.I am one of those who do not believe in linear evolution.Evolution had sufferred countless interruptions of varying nature and degrees, and had had to be restarted over and over again in the cause of evolution of the universe.
I believe that the human specie find itself in the endless cycle of evolution and devolution.We evolve to our natural state, remain there for a period, then something happens that devolves us down to the subnatural state, and we have to start the evolutionary climbing process up the ladder all over again.This, in my opinion, has happened countless times in the past and we are in the latest round.
Much higher than where we are now, that much i can tell you.How high up is down only to speculation.

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. . . What is "linear" evolution (I thought evolution was geared towards survival. . . so how does your definition of "linear" fit into this context?), and how do you come to know about "how we are meant to be", and what about that state of being makes it "how we are meant to be"? can you give an example, please?  What is your opinion- that this process of evolution and devolution has occurred several times in the past- based on?

I'm asking because the title of this thread is "religion and rationality", so we really need to be thinking the stuff we are saying through to see if they can stand anything thrown at them. A lot of the stuff you are saying seems, to me, to be as iffy as the claims of the religions you speak against a lot of the time. I'm not s.hit.ting on your views, I just want us to stay true to the title of the thread.

jagunlabi:

But we all can feel it that we are not where we are meant to be, hence the relentless strive to evolve, to grow to better ourselves through both spiritual(not religion) and scientific process of learnng.They both lead us back to where we were before and possibly will lead us beyond.

I'm not sure about the above ^^. A lot of people do not have that "feeling", which explains a lot of what we see around us. In fact I am of the opinion that most of our intellectual endevour is driven by the potential to profit. There is a lot of sincere curiosity out there, and some of it may be driven by what u say, but that statement i quoted from you just reads well. I don't think there is much about it that checks out in the real world.

imhotep:

Well, I don't reject reincarnation. But I prefer to think of myself as a WOUNDED HEALER . . .

MEN, YOU ARE TOO MUCH!

That's a beautiful line you dropped there.

We are all wounded, i think, the challenge is to be healers. . .

Now stop ratting about and fess up - who are you - Mahatma Ghandi? The Buddha? The Dalai Lama? If you are not one of these then without a doubt you are definitely Sat Guru Maharaji

There's no reason, in theory, why god's presence couldn't be measured or detected in some objective way. The only reason that believers claim that god can't be objectively detected in this way is because god isn't detected, and so a vast and intricate rationale has to be devised to explain this vast, loving, eternal, all-powerful "something" which is, in every external, objective respect, indistinguishable from nothing. God is no longer an explanation of anything, but has instead become something that would itself need an insurmountable amount of explaining.

-Douglas Adams

Does it make any sense to expect a spiritual thing to be physically observable?

Deep Sight:

Does it make any sense to expect a spiritual thing to be physically observable?

How do you observe the spiritual? Have you ever observed any spiritual being? How was your encounter with this spiritual entity? Did you hear him or her speak? How can it be true when it is something that the mind alone think it detects?

Deep Sight:

Does it make any sense to expect a spiritual thing to be physically observable?

Please explain to us how YOU measure spiritual things!!!!!!!  I think I have an idea!!  -  Suspend the use of your brains,  then believe what you are told without question and obey!!!!!  Very easy isnt it?

toneyb:

How do you observe the spiritual? Have you ever observed any spiritual being? How was your encounter with this spiritual entity? Did you hear him or her speak? How can it be true when it is something that the mind alone think it detects?

How can your thoughts be true, when they are only heard by your inner ear?

Can you prove to me that you have thoughts that you hear in your mind?

When you think in your mind, notice that you can clearly discern those thoughts - for example, you can say to yourself in your mind "Deep Sight is an idio.t" - AND you can clearly discern that you said that within your mind.

But -

1. It was not audible to any physical ears, not even yours  - and - 

2. You can never prove that it was said in your mind to ANYBODY BY ANY MEANS.

And what is the reason for this? Simply because thoughts are intangible.

Capisce?

akered:

Please explain to us how YOU measure spiritual things!!!!!!! I think I have an idea!! - Suspend the use of your brains, then believe what you are told without question and obey!!!!! Very easy isnt it?

Clearly you have NEVER read any of my posts or you would never suggest that i suspend the use of my brains, or that i believe what i am told without question. I can thus see no reason to respond further to you.

^^^ I think he was engaging in rhetorics about the observability or lack of it the spiritual, and not attacking your person. A materialist approach to spirituality.

@akered
Hi Doc. I thoroughly enjoyed that write-up you did on Rationalism in The Guardian in 1998 and the follow-ups by Tolu Ogunlesi and Leo Igwe. Any tips on how one gets to join the NCI?

Notice i had different responses for Toneyb and akered - they said diffrerent things. LOOK AGAIN.

Deep Sight:

How can your thoughts be true, when they are only heard by your inner ear?

Can you prove to me that you have thoughts that you hear in your mind?

When you think in your mind, notice that you can clearly discern those thoughts - for example, you can say to yourself in your mind "Deep Sight is an idio.t" - AND you can clearly discern that you said that within your mind.

But -

1. It was not audible to any physical ears, not even yours - and -

2. You can never prove that it was said in your mind to ANYBODY BY ANY MEANS.

And what is the reason for this? Simply because thoughts are intangible.

Capisce?

I asked you to explain your encounter wıth the spiritual realm and all you can come up with is this? Why should any body respect or believe subjective experiences or encounters that ONLY the mind alone feels it detects?

toneyb:

I asked you to explain your encounter wıth the spiritual realm and all you can come up with is this? Why should any body respect or believe subjective experiences or encounters that ONLY the mind alone feels it detects?

Why should anybody respect or believe the fact that you have thoughts in your mind since they are subjective experiences that only your mind detects?

@Deep Sight
I agree his style was brusque in the manner people like to attack those they see as "religionists" around here. I do not think he meant YOU were non-rational but was stating what he thought is pervasive in religiosity. Just how I saw it - your perception of it may be more accurate, of course.

Deep Sight:

Why should anybody respect or believe the fact that you have thoughts in your mind since they are subjective experiences that only your mind detects?

No body needs to believe any thing I claim my mind alone can detect because I can formulate and lie about anything I want to. Any thing that the mind alone claims it can detect deserves to be thrown into the dust bin in my opinion because people are very well known for making up different types of things for different reasons.

@ deepsight. In your opinion, are "spiritual experiences" thoughts? Cause it kinda seems that is what u may be implying. . .

toneyb:

No body needs to believe any thing I claim my mind alone can detect because I can formulate and lie about anything I want to. Any thing that the mind alone claims it can detect deserves to be thrown into the dust bin in my opinion because people are very well known for making up different types of things for different reasons.

Very well, then, so you are saying to me that all your private thoughts deserve to be thrown into the dust bin.

No problem, i will go purchase a dustbin for you.

It's either that, or since you are atheist i can join your approach and state that your private thoughts do not exist.

Krayola:

@ deepsight. In your opinion, are "spiritual experiences" thoughts? Cause it kinda seems that is what u may be implying. . .

No, not necessarily - i am drawing a co-relation between thoughts - which are intangible - and spirituality - which is intangible -

- and trying to show that it does not make sense to request that intangible things should be observed by physical means.

Deep Sight:

No, not necessarily - i am drawing a co-relation between thoughts - which are intangible - and spirituality - which is intangible -

- and trying to show that it does not make sense to request that intangible things should be observed by physical means.

But I think we can associate thoughts with a physical organ in the human body. . . so how does your co-relation work? what physical part of the human body do you associate "spiritual experiences" with, if, as you say, they are not necessarily thoughts?

Deep Sight:

Very well, then, so you are saying to me that all your private thoughts deserve to be thrown into the dust bin.

No problem, i will go purchase a dustbin for you.

It's either that, or since you are atheist i can join your approach and state that your private thoughts do not exist.

Don't get me wrong? Private thoughts that are presented as something of value should be measured in one way or the other else it deserves to be in the dust bin, Sayin that you feel god only in your heart is nothing different than saying that I am crazy in your heart, It is of no use or value to any body other than you because that is what your heart alone feels. So the supernatural has now been reduced to something that the heart alone detects eh? .

Krayola:

But I think we can associate thoughts with a physical organ in the human body. . . so how does your co-relation work? what physical part of the human body do you associate "spiritual experiences" with, if, as you say, they are not necessarily thoughts?

Tell me why LOVE, ANGER, HATRED AND OTHER EMOTIONS ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE HEART?

Tell me why COURAGE AND SPUNK are associated with the GUTS?

Tell me these first, before i respond further

Let me come in here.

Deep Sight:

Tell me why LOVE, ANGER, HATRED AND OTHER EMOTIONS ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE HEART?

Actually these emotions are associated with the brain not the heart. The heart is just a blood pumping machine. You can have a well functioning heart, but with an injured brain you can feel non of these emotions sometimes depending on the part of the brain that sustains the injury.

Tell me why COURAGE AND SPUNK are associated with the GUTS?

There are hormones like adrenaline that help project this emotions or feelings. What exactly are you trying to get at?

toneyb:

Don't get me wrong? Private thoughts that are presented as something of value should be measured in one way or the other else it deserves to be in the dust bin,

Thus if your private thoughts are not measured in one way or the other, they are not a thng of value?

It is of no use or value to any body other than you because that is what your heart alone feels.

Of course. It's meant for each individual to experience himself. We are born alone, we die alone.

So the supernatural has now been reduced to something that the heart alone detects eh?

Did you expect your feet to detect it?

Deep Sight:

Tell me why LOVE, ANGER, HATRED AND OTHER EMOTIONS ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE HEART?

Tell me why COURAGE AND SPUNK are associated with the GUTS?

Tell me these first, before i respond further

They are not, in my opinion, "associated" with the heart. Those are "clichés" in popular culture. The associations are in the language we use, and not in the actual biological processes in our body.

Hopefully you respond further now. . .

toneyb:

Let me come in here.

Actually these emotions are associated with the brain not the heart. The heart is just a blood pumping machine.

There are hormones like adrenaline that help project this emotions or feelings. What exactly are you trying to get at?

No doubt we all know this. I asked to be told why those emotions are associated with the heart? I ask this in response to a specific question. Why is it said throughout history - "a man feels this or that in his heart". . . "the heart of man is wicked. . ." . . ."A man lacked the guts to do this or that. . ."

Please indulge me, for i have a reason for asking this seemingly silly question.

Deep Sight:

No doubt we all know this. I asked to be told why those emotions are associated with the heart? I ask this in response to a specific question. Why is it said throughout history - "a man feels this or that in his heart". . . "the heart of man is wicked. . ." . . ."A man lacked the guts to do this or that. . ."

Please indulge me, for i have a reason for asking this seemingly silly question.

I think Krayola has helped me in answering that.

Krayola:

They are not, in my opinion, "associated" with the heart. Those are "clichés" in popular culture. The associations are in the language we use, and not in the actual biological processes in our body.

Hopefully you respond further now. . .

Actually, now that i think about it, the association may be because our heart rates change depending on how we feel. . . e.g. anxiety, fear, may increase your heart rate. I don't think that means we "feel" the anger and fear in our hearts. . .

Krayola:

They are not, in my opinion, "associated" with the heart. Those are "clichés" in popular culture. The associations are in the language we use, and not in the actual biological processes in our body.

Hopefully you respond further now. . .

Where did the cliches come from? What universal perceptions advised such cliches?

When you feel fear, why do you feel a sinking feeling in your stomach - why not in your head, since that's where the brain is?

When you feel love or hatred, why do you feel that burning feeling in your chest - why not in the head, since that's where the brain is?

Krayola:

Actually, now that i think about it, the association may be because our heart rates change depending on how we feel. . . e.g. anxiety, fear, may increase your heart rate. I don't think that means we "feel" the anger and fear in our hearts. . .

Or perharps due to the lack of knowledge that existed back in the days about the brain the people thought that the heart is the source of all emotional feelings.

Still waiting on this -

When you feel fear, why do you feel a sinking feeling in your stomach - why not in your head, since that's where the brain is?

When you feel love or hatred, why do you feel that burning feeling in your chest - why not in the head, since that's where the brain is?

Because you asked me about the association of the spirit to the body.

AND UNDENIABLY DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE BODY ARE AFFECTED BY DIFFERENT TYPES OF FEELINGS.

WHAT CAUSES THIS?

DOES THIS NOT SHOW THAT THE BODY IS A COMPOUND REPRESENTATION OF THE INNER EMOTIONAL MAN - AND THAT THE FEELINGS AND QUALITIES THAT EMERGE FROM THE MIND HAVE A NEUROLOGICAL CONNECTION TO DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE BODY?

Deep Sight:

Where did the cliches come from? What universal perceptions advised such cliches?

When you feel fear, why do you feel a sinking feeling in your stomach - why not in your head, since that's where the brain is?

When you feel love or hatred, why do you feel that burning feeling in your chest - why not in the head, since that's where the brain is?

@ deepsight. . .  there are explanations for these things. I'm not a biologist but I think there are chemicals secreted when certain emotions are felt that affect how certain organs function. Those are side effects of the emotion we feel, and not an indication that those organs are responsible for generating the emotions. Like I said I'm no biologist and I don't like to comment on stuff i know little of, but, for example, I know when we feel stress we secrete cortisol, which may affect our appetite, amongst other things, and make us feel crappy.

I honestly don't understand what u are trying to argue here to be honest. Are you saying that I feel courage in my testicles? wouldn't that make courage an exclusively masculine trait?

I think you are diverting us from the questions I raised, If you don't want to answer that is fine, but u saying you will answer only when i have given you answers (that, it seems, you must agree with) on another set of questions is kinda counter-productive, IMO.

Krayola:

But I think we can associate thoughts with a physical organ in the human body. . . so how does your co-relation work? what physical part of the human body do you associate "spiritual experiences" with, if, as you say, they are not necessarily thoughts?

When you feel fear, why do you feel a sinking feeling in your stomach - why not in your head, since that's where the brain is?

When you feel fear you feel a deep sinking feeling in you head also and sometimes you feel it all over your body and your body begins to shake, There are hormones that are secreted into your system that cause these things. What exactly are you trying to suggest here? Are you saying that people only feel fear in their stomach?

When you feel love or hatred, why do you feel that burning feeling in your chest - why not in the head, since that's where the brain is?

NOT true. You feel the emotional feeling of love or hate consume all parts of your body some times. There are hormonse that are secreted into your system that cause this reaction.

Deep Sight:


Because you asked me about the association of the spirit to the body.

AND UNDENIABLY DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE BODY ARE AFFECTED BY DIFFERENT TYPES OF FEELINGS.

WHAT CAUSES THIS?

DOES THIS NOT SHOW THAT THE BODY IS A COMPOUND REPRESENTATION OF THE INNER EMOTIONAL MAN - AND THAT THE FEELINGS AND QUALITIES THAT EMERGE FROM THE MIND HAVE A NEUROLOGICAL CONNECTION TO DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE BODY?

What is this inner emotional man and how can it be detected? So far the "mind" is the brain and all thoughts are linked directly to the brain.

Krayola:

@ deepsight. . .  there are explanations for these things. I'm not a biologist but I think there are chemicals secreted when certain emotions are felt that affect how certain organs function. Those are side effects of the emotion we feel, and not an indication that those organs are responsible for generating the emotions. Like I said I'm no biologist and I don't like to comment on stuff i know little of, but, for example, I know when we feel stress we secrete cortisol, which may affect our appetite, amongst other things, and make us feel crappy.

I honestly don't understand what u are trying to argue here to be honest. Are you saying that I feel courage in my testicles? wouldn't that make courage an exclusively masculine trait?

I think you are diverting us from the questions I raised, If you don't want to answer that is fine, but u saying you will answer only when i have given you answers (that, it seems, you must agree with) on another set of questions is kinda counter-productive, IMO.

No do not misunderstand me please: the actions of chemicals and hormones is well understood by everybody.

What is clear is that DIFFERENT FEELINGS AFFECT DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE BODY. We can see that the brain may cause the release of chemicals which may affect the gut, when a person feels fear. This shows that there is a neurological relationship between Fear, the brain, the chemicals it releases, and the gut.

An association is therefore conclusive.

Again a person may have a burning feeling in his chest when he is feeling strong love. This will be the result of specific chemicals which the brain has caused to be released which affect the heart in a certain way, yes?  This shows that there is a neurological relationship between the emotion felt, the brain, the chemicals it releases, and the heart.

Going by observable biochemistry as you pointed out, we can empirically conclude that  - THERE IS A NEUROLOGICAL LINK BETWEEN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE BODY AND THE CHEMICALS THAT AFFECT THEM BASED ON DIFFERENT THOUGHTS AND EMOTIONS.

Why does this observable neurological link exist?

You asked me what association the spirit may have with the body.

Spiritual experiences are intangible experiences just like emotions, and are indeed in their intangibility interwoven with and inseparable from such emotions.

Although hormones are physical, Love itself is not a hormone, even if it can be argued that the feeling is caused by a hormone. Love is thus not a physical thing, nor is hatred or jealously.

However as shown above, all these things definitely have a neurological connection to different parts of the body.

I am sure I have shown that those experiences have “an association” with different parts of the body, which is what you asked.