^^^ Toney - In reference to your last post, i hope the above shows what i mean?

The question was about what association the spirit has with the body, and i am sure it is clear that intangible emotions have a a neurological association with the body especially going by the very fact you posted about chemicals affecting all parts of the body.

The trigger for the release of those chemicals may be the sight of a beautiful woman or a painful memory.

Certainly, the association cannot be denied.

Toney you are yet to respond to this. You said -

Don't get me wrong? Private thoughts that are presented as something of value should be measured in one way or the other else it deserves to be in the dust bin,

And i asked -

Thus if your private thoughts are not measured in one way or the other, they are not a thng of value?

Yes? ? ?

Deep Sight:

. . . who are you - Mahatma Ghandi? The Buddha? The Dalai Lama? If you are not one of these then without a doubt you are definitely Sat Guru Maharaji

I'm just a fellow seeker like all of us on Nairaland.
Although there is a stage in the spiritual journey in which the seeker is able to see into the future, and into the past . . . being able to see his/her previous incarnations. . . if any . . .

Imhotep! You will not be allowed to escape with another mysterious and cryptic answer!

Ok, let's make it easy and start with this - do you subscribe to any religion? Or are you an adherent of a amovement such as The Grail Movement, Eckankar, The Rosicrucuain Order, or any other philosophy?

Toneyb and Krayola -

What does this image drawn by the man who is in my opinion the greatest mind that ever lived (Leornardo Da vinci) mean to you -

Deep Sight:

No do not misunderstand me please: the actions of chemicals and hormones is well understood by everybody.

What is clear is that DIFFERENT FEELINGS AFFECT DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE BODY. We can see that the brain may cause the release of chemicals which may affect the gut, when a person feels fear. This shows that there is a neurological relationship between Fear, the brain, the chemicals it releases, and the gut.

An association is therefore conclusive.

Again a person may have a burning feeling in his chest when he is feeling strong love. This will be the result of specific chemicals which the brain has caused to be released which affect the heart in a certain way, yes?  This shows that there is a neurological relationship between the emotion felt, the brain, the chemicals it releases, and the heart.

Going by observable biochemistry as you pointed out, we can empirically conclude that  - THERE IS A NEUROLOGICAL LINK BETWEEN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE BODY AND THE CHEMICALS THAT AFFECT THEM BASED ON DIFFERENT THOUGHTS AND EMOTIONS.

Why does this observable neurological link exist?

You asked me what association the spirit may have with the body.

Spiritual experiences are intangible experiences just like emotions, and are indeed in their intangibility interwoven with and inseparable from such emotions.

Although hormones are physical, Love itself is not a hormone, even if it can be argued that the feeling is caused by a hormone. Love is thus not a physical thing, nor is hatred or jealously.

However as shown above, all these things definitely have a neurological connection to different parts of the body.

I am sure I have shown that those experiences have “an association” with different parts of the body, which is what you asked.

Thank you for your response. I hope you don't think I'm trying to critique your spirituality. If you say you feel something, I can respect that. I've had lots of experiences I can't explain either. . . I choose not to tag them 'spiritual", but I can totally understand and appreciate why/how others could.


Oya back to the koko. . .  those emotions you mentioned can, I think, be associated with the brain. . . As in, as far as I know, there are certain cognitive processes that generate those emotions and trigger the associated  responses. Basically I'm trying to understand how you can experience something (spiritual) outside of the functions of the brain.

Also, what about a "spiritual experience" makes it a "spiritual experience", unlike any of the other emotions.

Please note ---> If you are going to bring things like the "soul" and the "spirit" into the mix, i'm not sure how the debate will continue to be a rational one. Not that i'm dismissing those as nonsense, but you will have to show me that they exist, and you just asserting that they do will not be adequate.

Let's start with the poser i was giving Toney.

Let's try a quick experiment.

1. Be perfectly silent for a moment.

2. In your mind, not out loud, say these words - "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog."

3. Did you hear yourself?

Yes - your physical ears heard absolutely nothing! But your mind could hear that sentence loud and clear - YES.

Let's start with this only for now: it is clear that your mind "has ears" of its own - which are not your physical ears - YES?

Deep Sight:

Toneyb and Krayola -

What does this image drawn by the man who is in my opinion the greatest mind that ever lived (Leornardo Da vinci) mean to you -

Doesn't really mean jac.ks.hit to me.     Just read some stuff on it tho

“Leonardo’s famous drawings of the Vitruvian proportions of a man’s body first standing inscribed in a square and then with feet and arms outspread inscribed in a circle provides an excellent early example of the way in which his studies of proportion fuse artistic and scientific objectives. It is Leonardo, not Vitruvius, who points out that ‘If you open the legs so as to reduce the stature by one-fourteenth and open and raise your arms so that your middle fingers touch the line through the top of the head, know that the centre of the extremities of the outspread limbs will be the umbilicus, and the space between the legs will make and equilateral triangle’ (Accademia, Venice). Here he provides one of his simplest illustrations of a shifting ‘centre of magnitude’ without a corresponding change of ‘centre of normal gravity’. This remains passing through the central line from the pit of the throat through the umbilicus and pubis between the legs. Leonardo repeatedly distinguishes these two different ‘centres’ of a body, i.e., the centers of ‘magnitude’ and ‘gravity (Keele 252).”

This image provides the perfect example of Leonardo's keen interest in proportion. In addition, this picture represents a cornerstone of Leonardo's attempts to relate man to nature. Encyclopaedia Britannica online states, "Leonardo envisaged the great picture chart of the human body he had produced through his anatomical drawings and Vitruvian Man as a cosmografia del minor mondo (cosmography of the microcosm). He believed the workings of the human body to be an analogy for the workings of the universe."

http://leonardodavinci.stanford.edu/submissions/clabaugh/history/leonardo.html

what does it mean to you?

Deep Sight:

Let's start with the poser i was giving Toney.

Let's try a quick experiment.

  1. Be perfectly silent for a moment.

  2. In your mind, not out loud, say these words  - "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog."

  3. Did you hear yourself?

Yes - your physical ears heard absolutely nothing! But your mind could hear that sentence loud and clear - YES.

Let's start with this only for now: it is clear that your mind "has ears" of its own - which are not your physical ears - YES?

haha. U asked me a question and answered on my behalf. . how does that work?

I tried your little experiment, but

I couldn''t "say" anything and didnt "hear" anything. . . My mind can neither talk nor hear. . . I did think it tho, and I thought it "loud" and 'clear'. . .pun intended 

^^^ How did you perceive what you thought?

How did you know it was those words you were thinking?

Are you saying to me you do not "hear" your own thoughts - within your mind?

Really can you suggest this?

Deep Sight:

^^^ How did you perceive what you thought?

How did you know it was those words you were thinking?

Are you saying to me you do not "hear" your own thoughts - within your mind?

Really can you suggest this?

Because I can think in language. We all can. We do not "hear" thoughts, we think them

Notice that i always say "hear" in quotation marks?

This is to avoid the confusion with hearing with your ears. I USE "hear" for lack of a better word.

Fact remains that you can distinguish the words clearly within your mind.

What is the meaning of that term - "the inner voice?"

You dont have one, Krayola?

Please, DeepSight, stop assuming that your terms must mean something to me. They don't.

I think with my brain. Nothing else, as far as I know.

So if by inner voice you mean the thoughts from my brain, then, yes, i have one, but i'll rather not call it that.

Deep Sight:

Imhotep! You will not be allowed to escape with another mysterious and cryptic answer!

Ok, let's make it easy and start with this - do you subscribe to any religion? Or are you an adherent of a amovement such as The Grail Movement, Eckankar, The Rosicrucuain Order, or any other philosophy?

Of course I subscribe to a religion. But I will not allow myself to be caged in the prisonyard of words, concepts, arguments and counter-arguments. . .

imhotep:

Of course I subscribe to a religion. But I will not allow myself to be caged in the prisonyard of words, concepts, arguments and counter-arguments. . .

That one is ojoro nah.  You have to put urself out there to be grilled like everyone else. No awuuf for here.

Perhaps you use that as a sort of escape clause because you really don't know what u believe. All that non-dualist stuff really doesn't add up. .  abi? 

Krayola:

That one is ojoro nah. You have to put urself out there to be grilled like everyone else. No awuuf for here.

Perhaps you use that as a sort of escape clause because you really don't know what u believe. All that non-dualist stuff really doesn't add up. . abi?

In the pursuit of[b] learning[/b], every day something is acquired.
In the pursuit of God, every day something is dropped.

imhotep:

In the pursuit of[b] learning[/b], every day something is acquired.
In the pursuit of God, every day something is dropped.

true, but people can learn nonsense. Why acquire a liability?

And the second statement means nothing to me. perhaps u can offer an explanation for mentally challenged people like myself

Krayola:

true, but people can learn nonsense. Why acquire a liability?

And the second statement means nothing to me. perhaps u can offer an explanation for mentally challenged people like myself

Try to reconcile the second statement with this: ". . . whoever[b] LOSES [/b]his life for My sake will FIND it . . ."

I tried, and still doesn't make sense to me.  It seems these "corny" one liners are all you will continue with. Never mind, then. 

Krayola:

I tried, and still doesn't make sense to me. It seems these "corny" one liners are all you will continue with. Never mind, then.

Yes indeed. I had asked Mavenb0x on one of these threads to WRITE DOWN the fragrance of her perfume on a sheet of paper. Perhaps I shall also ask you to do the same, its an interesting exercise.


. . . try it and let me know how u fared . . .

haha.  I don't use perfume/cologne.  I've been told my stinky armpit and gym clothes are aphrodisiacs 

I'm not asking you to define God or anything . . .  Just want an interesting debate but it seems i'm looking in the wrong place. Those your lines don't mean much to me as i'm not looking for "spiritual" insight or anything like that. It's cool. I wish you all the best. 

Krayola:

haha. I don't use perfume/cologne. I've been told my stinky armpit and gym clothes are aphrodisiacs

I'm not asking you to define God or anything . . . Just want an interesting debate but it seems i'm looking in the wrong place. Those your lines don't mean much to me as i'm not looking for "spiritual" insight or anything like that. It's cool. I wish you all the best.

Ouch. . . I try to avoid interesting debates with all my heart. Its hard enough trying to WRITE DOWN the fragrance of a cosmetic, man-made perfume. . . talk less of DEBATING about spiritual things . . .

Last thing I wanna do is debate "spiritual" things. I avoid those debates like the plague because they are too subjective and if someone says they experienced something the only way I can debate that is by calling the person a liar. I don't think most people here are liars so I just have to take their word for it.

But at least it will be nice to hear you describe/explain ur views, and not just keep dropping those one liners. . . I've seen most of those before so they are not new to me. But I understand that a lot of the atheists here will put you to the sword if you start detailing ur beliefs so i can understand you not wanting to go there. So, its ok.

The soul of man is like a piece of crystal, but it takes the color of whatever is near it.

Whatever the soul touches, it has to take its color.

That is the difficulty. That constitutes bondage.

The color is so strong, the crystal forgets itself [/b]and [b]identifies itself with the color.

Suppose a red flower is near the crystal: the crystal takes the color and forgets itself, thinks it is red.

All the difficulties that follow come from this . . .

All our fears, all worries, anxieties, troubles, mistakes, weakness, evil, are from that one great blunder.

This is the ordinary person.

It is the person taking the color of the flower near to it.

. . . . .  The crystal takes the color and forgets itself, thinks it is red.
We have taken the color of the body and have forgotten what we are.
All the difficulties that follow come from that one dead body.
All our fears, all worries, anxieties, troubles, mistakes,
Weakness, evil, are from that one great blunder-- that we are bodies.
This is the ordinary person.
It is the person taking the color of the flower near to it.
We are no more bodies than the crystal is the red . . .

Krayola:

. . . . . The crystal takes the color and forgets itself, thinks it is red.
We have taken the color of the body and have forgotten what we are.
All the difficulties that follow come from that one dead body.
All our fears, all worries, anxieties, troubles, mistakes,
Weakness, evil, are from that one great blunder-- that we are bodies.
This is the ordinary person.
It is the person taking the color of the flower near to it.
We are no more bodies than the crystal is the red . . .

Very very very good.
Hope u had time to reflect upon this piece from Vivekananda?

haha

My God. Imhotep is Nirvana.

Krayola i thought this transcript might shed perspective -

Vitruvian Man - Presentation Transcript

1. Vitruvian Man The true dimensions of the Human Being

2. Leonardo da Vinci, 1452 The evident and explicit is not usually the whole truth The Vitruvian Man is one of the more well known sketches in the world. Leonardo Da Vinci designed it to express the idea of the dimensions of the Human. In principle the Human body. As a realist and a perfectionist he measured the Human body from every angle, so he could understand better its dimensions and be able to draw and sculpt it perfectly. And he did. Man's height is four cubits (and thus 24 palms). The length of a man's outspread arms is equal to his height. The distance from the hairline to the bottom of the chin is one-tenth of a man's height. The distance from the top of the head to the bottom of the chin is one-eighth of a man's height. The distance from the bottom of the neck to the hairline is one-sixth of a man's height, etc.

3. Leonardo da Vinci, 1452 The things more tangible and physical in appearance are often the ones with more metaphysical significance The real dimensions of the Human Being are not the physical dimensions. The human being is one and three at the same time: body, mind and soul. There is a perfect body, like Da Vinci explained in the sketch, but the perfect Human Being is the one that is perfectly balanced in its three dimensions.
4. Leonardo da Vinci, 1452 The things more tangible and physical in appearance are often the ones with more metaphysical significance At the physical level, the body as well as the human being, is a complex system. It can be divided into 10 perfectly connected and functional systems: Circulatory, digestive, muscular and nervous among them.

5. Leonardo da Vinci, 1452 You probably have heard that humans and chimpancé share 98% of their DNA The main differentiator between the human and animal world is precisely the intangible, not the body. First: the intellect that resides in the mind. We are talking about intelligence, creativity. Second: our capability to feel, that resides in the soul. Not feeling in term of the senses, but in term of the heart. Love, pain, frustration. Feeling with the senses is only a electrical connection. Feeling with the soul is a combination of biochemical and electrical connections.
6. Leonardo da Vinci, 1452 The magic of the human being is that it can be individualized but not isolated The human being exists by itself but also in terms of his relationship with the others and nature. And in this field is where our humanity, our mind and our soul really work.

7. Leonardo da Vinci, 1452 The body and its relationship with the mind The Nervous System connects every part of the The universe at this level body to the brain. They are our interfaces to the The universe at thisI level hear, smell, is: what see, material world. is: what I see, hear, feel. touch or smell, touch or feel. There is nothing outside this circle. According with our body.

8. Leonardo da Vinci, 1452 The body and its relationship with the mind MIND But also through the mind we learn that there is me, there is the others and there is nature. So our universe expands infinitely.

9. Leonardo da Vinci, 1452 The Soul The human being exists by itself but also in terms of its relationship with the other and nature. And in this field is where our humanity, our mind and our soul really work.

10. Leonardo da Vinci, 1452 The body and its relationship with the soul The soul is more a transmitter than a receiver. It The Solar SOUL puts us in contact with everything in the Plexus universe. connects the Soul with the body When you love something it is because you connect with it, the two things have found the same frequency and receive and transmit freely. Have you heard of a ¨hunch¨? Have you heard of ¨butterflies in my stomach¨? All are really a manifestation of the soul with others and nature. So our universe expands infinitely. And we get to recognize that it consists of me, the others and nature.

11. Leonardo da Vinci, 1452 The perfect human is the most balanced one. Balanced means in Harmony. The body is in harmony when it is healthy. The mind is in harmony when its purpose of existence, the creative thinking, is active. The soul is in harmony when we recognize ourselves as part of a bigger whole: me, the others and nature. So, if you hurt / love yourself, others or the nature, you are hurting / loving yourself, and that means absence / abundance of harmony. When you love and serve yourself, the others and nature, then regrets, impatience, violence and all feelings of disharmony disappear.

12. Leonardo da Vinci, 1452 A Human in Harmony. Active creative MIND thinking Loves and Takes care of its physical body. service himself, the others and SOUL nature Cannot stop being active in creative thinking. Transmits and therefore receives love for it self, Eats well, the others and nature. exercises BODY and rests well

13. Vitruvian Man The true dimensions of the Human Being

This thread is about rationality. . . which, I thought, means we are trying to think things through. . .

All these unnecessary appeals to some "authority" are just nonsense IMO. Telling me some really smart guys from back in the days believed the same stuff as u does nothing for your position. I don't believe in a "soul" and if u want to use that u have to show me that one exists, not that Da Vinci and Vivekananda agreed with you.

Krayola:

I don't believe in a "soul" and if u want to use that u have to show me that one exists,

While you are entitled to your disbelief in what is called a soul, to "show" it's existence to you and your very limited 5 senses perception will be problematic because the soul is beyond sensory perception.

Krayola:

I don't believe in a "soul" and if u want to use that u have to show me that one exists,

The watchword here being, of course, "believe". . .