Nferyn, How come you appear not to believe tin the existence of a spiritual world when there is ample eveidence all around us. The things which we see according to God's word come from things that we do not see.

In other words, the spiritual world controls the physical world.

Are you african? ....and did you say you do not believe in the existence of the supernatural. I tell you, there are some folks(not just traditional juju priests but children of God) who have power to even tie you down to the ground so that you can't get up.   

I dare you (if you are not afraid to witnesss genuine proofs of God's exixtence) to attend one of Pastor Chris' meetings (say...healing school) with soomeone sick or diseased. Even if you do not break down in tears before the pesence of God  for your disobedience and hardness of heart you sure will bow down and worship God because of the working of His mighty power which you will witness before your very eyes.

I have seen several atheists and anti-christs bow to the Name of Jesus at the working of God's mighty power. You will not be the first.

It is easy to be an etheist when things seem to be moving on fine. However, it is extremely difficult to be an etheist when you are on your death bed.

nferyn is belgian not african.
He is yet to see the miraculos happen in his eyes. Human turning to animal can not be explained in d realm of physics but it sure happens.

I believe in d spiritual...i therefore believe in GOD.

Oh... little wonder

donnie:

Nferyn, How come you appear not to believe tin the existence of a spiritual world when there is ample eveidence all around us. The things which we see according to God's word come from things that we do not see.

In other words, the spiritual world controls the physical world.

There is no evidence around us, at least I haven't seen any yet. What you're saying about the so called spiritual world does not make sense to me. I have no idea what you're talking about. I've never encountered a spirit.
Can you explain to me the process by which the spiritual world controls the physical world?

donnie:

Are you african? ....and did you say you do not believe in the existence of the supernatural. I tell you, there are some folks(not just traditional juju priests but children of God) who have power to even tie you down to the ground so that you can't get up.

No, I'm not African, my wife is. Well, talk is cheap. No-one has ever done that to me.

donnie:

I dare you (if you are not afraid to witnesss genuine proofs of God's exixtence) to attend one of Pastor Chris' meetings (say...healing school) with soomeone sick or diseased. Even if you do not break down in tears before the pesence of God for your disobedience and hardness of heart you sure will bow down and worship God because of the working of His mighty power which you will witness before your very eyes.

I've already promised my wife that I will follow her to one of these services. I'll keep you all posted of what will happen. Don't hope too much, though.

donnie:

I have seen several atheists and anti-christs bow to the Name of Jesus at the working of God's mighty power. You will not be the first.

I wonder if you've ever met a conscient atheist is your life.

donnie:

It is easy to be an etheist when things seem to be moving on fine. However, it is extremely difficult to be an etheist when you are on your death bed.

Indeed, religion is for the weak minded. It gives answers where there are none. It gives purpose when there is none. It gives a fast-food morality to those who lack the intelligence to develop their own ethics. Allmost all strong religious people I've met have one thing in common: an immense fear. Fear for death, fear for the consequences of their actions, fear for things not to go their way, ... They live in an incredible fear for what they don't know.

layi:

He is yet to see the miraculos happen in his eyes. Human turning to animal can not be explained in d realm of physics but it sure happens.

Layi!!! baba that one pass me o, humans turning to animals  please show us evidence of this ever happening
someone is watching too much nollywood 

ijebuman:

Layi!!! baba that one pass me o, humans turning to animals please show us evidence of this ever happening
someone is watching too much nollywood

This would actually be a good thing. An instant solution to overpopulation. Layi, why don't you send one of these people over here. There are some people I'd like to be turned into ......

Ijebuman, actually you don't need proof. Humans are animals with an exceptionally large and active brain. Some use it for the advancement of society.... others just have way too much phantasy.

nferyn:

This would actually be a good thing. An instant solution to overpopulation. Layi, why don't you send one of these people over here. There are some people I'd like to be turned into ......

i'm assuming you meant other people turned into ... not you   

ijebuman:

i'm assuming you meant other people turned into ... not you

Maybe it would be a good thing if more people turned into me but on the other hand, is there enough ego space for all these me's, after all, they shouldn't start competing with me

I tell you, there are some folks(not just traditional juju priests but children of God) who have power to even tie you down to the ground so that you can't get up.

Nferyn, I guess I've told you this^^^ before.

I'll be glad if you come to Nigeria and see things for yourself. But then, I hope you won't start using science to explain the miracles by pastor Chris.

goodguy:

I'll be glad if you come to Nigeria and see things for yourself. But then, I hope you won't start using science to explain the miracles by pastor Chris.

Why wouldn't I try to use science to explain things that happen in front of me?

Never mind. Come to Nigeria first. You'll see wonders.

goodguy:

Never mind. Come to Nigeria first. You'll see wonders.

Hopefully next august

goodguy:

Never mind. Come to Nigeria first. You'll see wonders.

what i want to know is when nferyn becomes born again on his visit to Nigeria, when he 'speaks in tongues' what language will he speak if he speaks in a Nigerian language i'll be truly convinced

Well, I don't know about that because I don't even speak in tongues.

Ijebuman, so you're an atheist too?

goodguy:

Well, I don't know about that because I don't even speak in tongues.

Ijebuman, so you're an atheist too?

goodguy u don come again o , you've asked me if i was a christain in a previous thread, now you're asking if i'm an atheist. Why do you want to know ?

You don't sound like one who believes in God. From your posts, it's either you're pretending not to believe or you actually do not believe.

ijebuman:

goodguy u don come again o , you've asked me if i was a christain in a previous thread, now you're asking if i'm an atheist. Why do you want to know ?

I guess for information purpose, last week you might be a christian, this week your stand might have changed.................what is your stand now ijebuman?  

goodguy:

You don't sound like one who believes in God. From your posts, it's either you're pretending not to believe or you actually do not believe.

please show me the post where i was either pretending to do anything. I just found your line of questioning interesting as i never said here i was a christain neither did i say i was an atheist

nicetohave:


I guess for information purpose, last week you might be a christian, this week your stand might have changed.................what is your stand now ijebuman?

My stand has always been the same i don't believe in religion simple

Believing in religion and beliving in God are two different things, be explicit

I believe in God or
I am an atheist

ijebuman:

please show me the post where i was either pretending to do anything. I just found your line of questioning interesting as i never said here i was a christain neither did i say i was an atheist

I said from your posts, you seem to me like you're either pretending not to believe or you just don't believe at all. Which one of my assumptions is correct?

goodguy:

I said from your posts, you seem to me like you're either pretending not to believe or you just don't believe at all. Which one of my assumptions is correct?

What i don't believe in is the christain concept of God, which is the question on this thread. I believe in a higher power that has given us freewill to live our life the way we choose. I don't have to answer anything because the 'God' you're asking about here is not same one i define as a higher power.

O.I.C

Here's a previous post where i made my position clear.
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-1892.32.html#msg137652

I have you all a question. So, many of us here are trying to prove that there is a God and that he exists. nferyn, said (on like the 2nd page or something.) "Give me evidence that can withstand scientifical scrutiny and I will believe." and I need to ask this. Does anyone have "evidence that can withstand scientifical scrutiny" that there isn't a God? Can you all prove, to your own standards, that there is no God? If so, may i dare ask what that evidence is? and if not, why then would you choose to believe that there is no God? Because to believe that there is no God... I'm assuming then that you would believe that we go nowhere when we die, or we are reborn. If this is the case, why do we have morals? why should we care if we murder someone or not? They would be reborn anyway! Or, they wouldn't have any place better to go at least. Why should we care if we steal? It doesn't really matter! We have no punishment for it, except maybe being a dog or a snail for a lifetime or two. Please someone answer this for me. Thank you.

AbbeyMarie:

I have you all a question. So, many of us here are trying to prove that there is a God and that he exists. nferyn, said (on like the 2nd page or something.) "Give me evidence that can withstand scientifical scrutiny and I will believe." and I need to ask this. Does anyone have "evidence that can withstand scientifical scrutiny" that there isn't a God? Can you all prove, to your own standards, that there is no God? If so, may i dare ask what that evidence is? and if not, why then would you choose to believe that there is no God? Because to believe that there is no God... I'm assuming then that you would believe that we go nowhere when we die, or we are reborn. If this is the case, why do we have morals? why should we care if we murder someone or not? They would be reborn anyway! Or, they wouldn't have any place better to go at least. Why should we care if we steal? It doesn't really matter! We have no punishment for it, except maybe being a dog or a snail for a lifetime or two. Please someone answer this for me. Thank you.

No, there isn't similar proof for the non existence of God. As a result, anyone who requires proof one way or the other can believe whatever they want.

Its like whether or not you believe in the existence of aliens on some other planet we have not yet discovered. There is no evidence either way, however, people still think aliens exist or some people think they dont (even though there is no evidence that would say so).

Now, why do we have morals. . . - well, your question assumes that we have morals because we want to be "good" in this life to avoid "punishment" in another. While that may be a factor depending on your religion, there is another reason.

Basically, you want to be good because. . .its the right thing to do. For the survival of the human race, it behooves all of us to be nice decent people. If we all rampage around killing, we'd all soon be wiped out. Many people spend their lives working to improve conditions for future generations. Doesn't that suggest a motivation for being "good" that does not require the threat of some after death punishment or reward. There are lots of reasons in this life to be "good". There typically is only 1 reason for those who believe in an afterlife, heaven vs hell.

@ AbbeyMarie
There is ample proof (not only evidence, but actual proof) of the non existence of the specific [/b]God of Christianity and Judaism in their literal reading of the Bible.
There cannot be proof for the non existance of a [b]generic God.

As atheism only implies the lack of belief in a supreme being, it is up to the theists to prove the existence of such a being.

Elbaron has explained my position far more eloquently than I ever could have done myself:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-4411.0.html#msg146195

@ Nyferyn. Thank you for referring to me, how elbaron explained atheism. I was under the delusion that atheism meant only that you believe there is no God, and that cleared it up for me.

It seems to me that either way you must take a leap of faith. Either you must take a leap of faith that God exists, is real and created us all. Or you must take a leap of faith saying, God might not exists. If God doesn't exist, then we are all basically screwed either way no matter which leap of faith you take, because we will be nothingness. But, if God does exist... then well, that's a different story. So I think, why not. Why not take a chance and believe there is a God? He might just prove it to you. Then you might think. Which God should i take a chance on? They are all so alike... Well, many religions believe that everyone goes to heaven. But, i know that, at least, Christianity says Only those who are Christians go to heaven. Let's look at how else Christianity is also unique. Take Buddha out of Budism. You still have rules to follow and, a way of life. Take Moses out of Judism, you still have rules to follow, a way of life, a religion. Take Muhammad out of Muslim, you still have rules to follow, a way of life, a religion. If you take the founder out of any religion, you would still have rules to follow, way of life. Except for Christianity. Christianity, is simply a relationship with Jesus Christ, if you were to take Jesus out of the religion, you would have absolutely nothing. Yes you could follow the rules.... but you would no longer be a Christian, because a Christian is someone who has a personal relationship with Christ, they received Jesus into their heart, and you simply can't take Jesus out of it. Also, Christianity is the only religion that you can't do anything to get into Heaven by yourself, after you have sinned. There is nothing at all you can do, but receive Jesus' gift. So, at that, if you are going to take a chance, why not take it on the most unique religion, that says they are the only way to heaven. Like i said before, if it turns out, that there is no God, it won't matter anyway. So Why not? Why not? Why not take a chance, and let yourself believe, if only for the moment, and pray that God will prove to you himself that he exists? What harm could it do? Why not?

AbbeyMarie:

@ Nyferyn. Thank you for referring to me, how elbaron explained atheism. I was under the delusion that atheism meant only that you believe there is no God, and that cleared it up for me.

My pleasure

AbbeyMarie:

It seems to me that either way you must take a leap of faith. Either you must take a leap of faith that God exists, is real and created us all.

No. What I'm saying is that atheism is simply the lack of God belief. As for the cause of us and the universe being here, we do not know for certain, but the Big Bang Theory is currently the best supported explanation. In the case of atheism, when confronted with something that cannot readily be explained, you must honestly conclude that you don't know. Faith is belief without evidence. Atheism requires no such thing.
In your case, you must have faith that (1) God exists and is real, (2) God created us all.

AbbeyMarie:

Or you must take a leap of faith saying, God might not exists. If God doesn't exist, then we are all basically screwed either way no matter which leap of faith you take, because we will be nothingness.

I already said that this does not require faith at all. Why would we be screwed? We would no longer be, so there is nobody to be screwed anymore. What we do in our short life can and does have an impact on others. Thinking that al wrongs on this earth will be straightened in heaven is an encouragement for passive behaviour and acceptance of evil on this planet. It is the perfect tool for those in power to screw you over and make you accept your predicament.

AbbeyMarie:

But, if God does exist... then well, that's a different story.

There are no indications he does exist and lots of counter indications. Why be irrational?

AbbeyMarie:

So I think, why not. Why not take a chance and believe there is a God? He might just prove it to you. Then you might think. Which God should i take a chance on? They are all so alike... Well, many religions believe that everyone goes to heaven. But, i know that, at least, Christianity says Only those who are Christians go to heaven.

And what are you trying to say here exactly? I think you would gain insight by studying some other religions outside Christianity

AbbeyMarie:

Let's look at how else Christianity is also unique. Take Buddha out of Budism. You still have rules to follow and, a way of life. Take Moses out of Judism, you still have rules to follow, a way of life, a religion. Take Muhammad out of Muslim, you still have rules to follow, a way of life, a religion. If you take the founder out of any religion, you would still have rules to follow, way of life.

There's far more to these religions than you suggest. The way they treat their texts is usually very different from Christianity.

AbbeyMarie:

Except for Christianity. Christianity, is simply a relationship with Jesus Christ, if you were to take Jesus out of the religion, you would have absolutely nothing.

Which makes it the most anti-intellectual religion I've come in contact with. Ignorance and stupidity are seen as virtues - as long as you accept Jesus in your heart....

AbbeyMarie:

Yes you could follow the rules.... but you would no longer be a Christian, because a Christian is someone who has a personal relationship with Christ, they received Jesus into their heart, and you simply can't take Jesus out of it.

This is always the final refuge for Christians: their personal relationship with Christ. The most intangible thing found on this planet. How do you define that relationship? How do you detect it? How do you know that it's real?

AbbeyMarie:

Also, Christianity is the only religion that you can't do anything to get into Heaven by yourself, after you have sinned. There is nothing at all you can do, but receive Jesus' gift.

And how do you know that you specific version of Christianity is the correct one?

AbbeyMarie:

So, at that, if you are going to take a chance, why not take it on the most unique religion, that says they are the only way to heaven

All religions are unique in their own way, but this is certainly not what makes Christianity unique.

AbbeyMarie:

Like i said before, if it turns out, that there is no God, it won't matter anyway. So Why not? Why not? Why not take a chance, and let yourself believe, if only for the moment, and pray that God will prove to you himself that he exists? What harm could it do? Why not?

Ah, another version of Pascal's wager. You are in excellent company, my dear
This argument was first used by the French mathematician Blaise Pascal, it goes as follows:
If you erroneously believe in God, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly believe in God, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you correctly disbelieve in God, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you erroneously disbelieve in God, you lose everything (eternal damnation).

There are some problems with this argument, though.
1. It assumes that you have knowledge of God's intentions (which you cannot have)
2. It assumes that there is no evidence against God (there is ample evidence against the existence of the specific God of Christianity, Judaism and Islam)
3. It assumes that those who do not believe in him will end up in eternal torment (not a universal belief, even among Christians)
4. It assumes that belief in God is sufficient to go to heaven
5. It assumes that you can impose a belief on yourself

What I dislike most about this argument is that - in the good Christian tradition - it is again an argument out of fear. Christianity, in most of it's variations, is a religion of fear: fear for sin, fear for God, fear for the devil, fear for life after death, fear for the sinners, fear of not having served God enough, .... nothing but fear

OK. i am going to reply to your last post on this thread, with two. This one, and the next one, which will take a while.... but in this one, i simply have a..... favor.

Could you just simply stop, just stop for the moment. Stop trying to disprove God exists. Say... It's possible that you could be wrong, and Stop! After that... could you pray to God? as i said in another thread, you have not closed your heart completely as many if not most atheists would have, but i want you just for a moment, to attempt to believe. Attempt to hear God with an open heart and an open mind?

this to you may sound like a preposterous idea. but well. I admit it. there is not solid evidence that i can get my hands on, and show you that will prove God exists. but by not doing this, and i mean doing it with a truly open heart and mind. not one that says, "this is stupid i can't believe I'm actually going through with this." but rather one that takes a chance, a risk and allows itself to be wrong. if you cannot do this,  you must understand that you are refusing to be shown evidence the only way i know how, at this moment, to show you.

and if you decide to refuse this. Please tell me why.

AbbeyMarie,

Don't u think thats too much of a task to bestow on a well grounded atheist who has consistently denied God's existence.

No, not at all prettyH

i mean think about it. Nferyn is on here every day, replying to us.

Can you imagine how many people are praying for him on here? I know i am.

Many, if not most, atheist would probably take on look at these conversations, bolt out, and never come back.

But Nferyn is on here every day. It's almost like he... wants to be proven wrong? i don't know if that's true or not. But I know, someday on here, God, being God, will find him. It may be days, weeks, months, years... But God wants nferyn to be apart of his family.

let's not forget that if everyone who had ever existed, except nferyn, had never sinned, God still would have had Jesus come down to die for him, whether or not nferyn received him. God loves him so much...

i mean it's GOD we are talking about.

so, no i do not think that it is too much off a task.