Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? - Religion (5) - Nairaland
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| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by kilisi(m): 8:39pm On Jul 15, 2017 |
easymancfc: Can you please give a biblical proof to support your first point that that Abraham's blossom was not God's dwelling place? For the second part, yes Elijah probably didn't ascend into the heavens. There is another place that shows that he sent a letter to a king in Israel after that ascension to heaven. In all probability, Elijah was concealed from Elisha's face by the clouds and taken to another part of the earth. This can only be the logical conclusion when you consider this incidence with other Bible verses. Mention me tomorrow and I'll provide those verses I have in mind. Good night. |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by Syncan(m): 11:07pm On Jul 16, 2017 |
kilisi: It wasn't God's dwelling place because Jesus said it wasn't. No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven Jn.3:13. Do you believe Jesus? |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent(m): 9:50pm On Jul 17, 2017 |
easymancfc: Show me proof that Catholic was setup by the Apostles. You are not sincere about knowing the truth, if not you could have read those articles on the links i sent to you. I guess you are afraid to discover the truth. your church is the mystery Babaylon. why not google it. don't be naive open your eyes what makes you intelligent is not what you are taught but what you learn and discover for yourself. The bible talks about babylon in the book of revelation, that will change time and laws. this your Church has done and it acknowledge's it. What more proof. 1 Like |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent(m): 9:58pm On Jul 17, 2017 |
easymancfc: Your logic does not hold.elders are not dead saints period stop fabricating ideas to suit your church doctrines. Your links will be Bleep and madeup of lies, they cannot stand Bible scrutiny. So where does the bible state or support the idea of purgartory? Since you know after death is Judgement? |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by Tampinu(m): 10:03pm On Jul 17, 2017 |
blueAgent: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/kn/kn093.htm http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/kn/ |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by easymancfc(m): 9:26am On Jul 18, 2017 |
blueAgent:Really? my logic does not hold up?... Just provide Scripture verses that say elders are not human beings but were created by God as you claim.... As for purgatory.. thats not the issue at stake... You have lost one argument and you want to divert to another... Show me the proof of Elders being special being created for worship... then i will tell you about purgatory |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by easymancfc(m): 9:36am On Jul 18, 2017 |
blueAgent: Your links are filled with lies, and other Christians agree... its you who is not sincere about truth... You take Adventist heresy and deny biblical and historical truths... As for the Babylon.. do you think it was the Adventists who were the first to make that accusation.. It was first put forth by Martin Luther, during the protestant Reformation.. and that has been refuted.. REFUTED SEVERAL TIMES... THAT BABYLON IS FOR PAGAN ROME OR APOSTATE JERUSALEM NOT FOR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH... STOP DEVIATING THE THREAD.. YOUR SOUL SLEEP DOCTRINE IS A LIE... PERIOD.. |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by easymancfc(m): 10:36am On Jul 18, 2017 |
Tampinu: |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by Tampinu(m): 1:03pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
[quote author=easymancfc post=58574026][/quote] Thanks for your comments. I have posted info and given you direct links to my sources (Kebra Negast) which is an ancient. Are you telling me that all the stuff that you mentioned above, to which you cannot provide a single direct link or page or reference supercedes sacred documents that have been preserved in Ethiopia since way back when? Bearing in mind that Ethiopia is the first country mentioned in the Bible (Genesis 2:13-KJV), is there another country that can know more about God than God's own country according to Psalm 87-KJV? How far back will Christian history go? Does it go past when "christianity" was formed? Do you know which coutry first declared Christianity as a state 'religion'? (It's worth a google, but hint is Ethiopia and Armenia) Consider the Ethiopian Tewahedo [/b]meaning below... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Orthodox_Tewahedo_Church Are you familiar with the King's speech below, at all? [b] We in Ethiopia have one of the oldest versions of the bible, but however old the version may be, in whatever language it might be written, the Word remains one and the same. It transcends all boundaries of empires and all conceptions of race. It is eternal. No doubt you all remember reading in the Acts of the Apostles of how Philip baptised the Ethiopian official. He is the first Ethiopian on record to have followed Christ, and from that day onwards the Word of God has continued to grow in the hearts of Ethiopians. And I might say for myself that from early childhood I was taught to appreciate the Bible and my love for it increases with the passage of time. All through my troubles I have found it a cause of infinite comfort. “Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” who can resist an invitation so full of compassion? Because of this personal experience in the goodness of the Bible, I was resolved that all my countrymen should also share its great blessing and that by reading the Bible they should find truth for themselves. Therefore, I caused a new translation to be made from our ancient language into the language which the old and the young understood and spoke. Today man sees all his hopes and aspirations crumbling before him. He is perplexed and knows not whither he is drifting. But he must realise that the Bible is his refuge, and the rallying point for all humanity. In it man will find the solution of his present difficulties and guidance for his future action, and unless he accepts with clear conscience the Bible and its great Message, he cannot hope for salvation. For my part I glory in the Bible. _Emperor Haile Selassie I (Lion of Judah, Prince of Peace, King of Kings, Elect of God, Earth's Rightful Ruler, Defender of The Faith) Please don't come and challenge Kebra Negast; if you know not the Kings, how can you know the 'Glory of the Kings'? Peace
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| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by Tampinu(m): 1:07pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
[quote author=easymancfc post=58574026][/quote] How does all what you have written above regarding the Catholic church compare with what is written in the Bible in the Book of Romans 1:17-32? I await your reply... With thanks |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent(m): 3:56pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
easymancfc: |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent(m): 3:58pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
easymancfc: Which lies. my links contain facts backed by Bible verses. It is obvious you don't know your church's identity. |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent(m): 4:00pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
easymancfc: Which lies. my links contain facts backed by Bible verses. It is obvious you don't know your church's identity. Let me give you some bible facts on the state of the dead. Punishment & Rewards in the Resurrection Consider how confusing it would be if rewards and punishments are now being applied. What purpose would be served by a resurrection? Why even have a resurrection? Obviously each soul would already have a determined fate, and the farce of some make-believe final judgment would be totally meaningless. All the pious assurances heard at funerals about loved ones in heaven are simply repetitions of Satan’s first lie to the human family. The portrayal of imaginary, immaterial souls flying away from the body at death is not a source of comfort to grieving relatives. Paul described the time when the righteous dead will be with the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 4: 16-18, and concluded with these words, “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” Here is a perfect, inspired picture of true comfort, and we need to understand clearly what word Paul was referring to that would bring such comfort. The two previous verses give us the words, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Paul here describes without any limitation the way and means by which we go to be with the Lord. Don’t overlook the word “so” in his statement. It means “in this way.” By that little word Paul precluded every other way of being with the Lord. When he described the coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the saints as being the manner and means of being with the Lord, he automatically excluded all other means of doing it. Then he admonishes us to “comfort one another with these words.” I repeat that there can be no comfort in the pseudo-Christian concept that some invisible, intangible entity leaves the body at death to be punished or rewarded. Is it reassuring to believe that unsaved relatives are suffering the torment of unquenchable fire? Is there solace in the picture of loved ones looking down from heaven upon the heart-breaking circumstances of those left behind? No wonder Paul was so specific in describing the second advent of Jesus and resurrection as the only way anyone can be with the Lord after death and, incidentally, as the only way to be comforted at their departure. Paul’s magnificent declaration points up the glorious fact that death and the grave are not the end. There will be an awakening from the sleep of death. The righteous will receive the gift of immortality, but it will all happen “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (1 Corinthians 15:52, 53). Jesus said, “Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:28, 29). All the dead |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent(m): 4:02pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
easymancfc: Again we read, “For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day” (Isaiah 38:18, 19). Would not the righteous dead praise God if they were ushered into heaven at their death? David repeats the same timeless truth, “The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence” (Psalm 115:17). “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?” (Psalm 6:5). Do the Dead Ever Return? |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent(m): 4:04pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
easymancfc: Jesus assured the people of His day, “...thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14). Again, He said, “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works” (Matthew 16:27). There is no equivocation here. In simple, direct language Jesus declared that no one would be rewarded until the resurrection takes place at His second coming. This means that none of the righteous dead have gone to heaven so far. All are waiting in their graves for the judgment and the end of the world. Almost the last words of the Bible confirm this fact. “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his works shall be” (Revelation 22:12). This last-day reward is further described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:53, “... and this mortal must put on immortality.” When does it happen? “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump” (Verse 52). This settles the issue about when the dead will be rewarded . |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent(m): 4:07pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
easymancfc: Man does not have a Soul but man himself is a living Soul. The psalmist describes death in these words, “Thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created” (Psalm 104:29, 30). Here the order is reversed, and their breath returns to God at death. Solomon said the spirit returns. Here God gives the spirit to create, but Genesis says He gave the breath to create. It only makes sense when we understand that the two words are used interchangeably and mean the same thing. Please take note that this “spirit of life” is not necessarily the same as the Holy Spirit, neither is the “breath of life” the same as the regular air we breathe. This breath or spirit is the special, life- giving power of God which makes the body a functioning organism. Read Genesis 2:7 again, and try to visualize the act of creation. “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground.” We have no difficulty with this. We can see that dead body, perfectly formed and containing the very elements necessary for life. But there was no life. The heart wasn’t beating. The blood was there, but it wasn’t flowing. The brain was there, but it wasn’t thinking. Then God added one more thing to the body He had made. He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7). Do not miss the significance of these words—they are often misconstrued. God did not put a soul into the body. He added only one thing—breath or spirit. Then, as a result of the body and breath uniting, man BECAME a soul. |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent(m): 4:10pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
easymancfc: Show me a Bible verse that shows that the Elders where dead Saints. I don't lose the argument, so far none of you guys have been able to give me a bible verse that shows that dead Saints are in Heaven. |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent(m): 4:11pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
Tampinu: Same Heresy. This book is more occultic than Bibilcal, trust me i know one when i see it, from experience |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by Tampinu(m): 4:12pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
blueAgent: Yes, the Romans and Catholics came with their heresay to destroy the faith, but the Africans are holding on to the TRUE Christianity. |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by Tampinu(m): 4:15pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
blueAgent: I don't think anyone needs to show you anything, rather you need to search and find what you are after. Seek and ye shall find_Jesus  |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent(m): 4:15pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
Tampinu: Africans? are you sure. Africans who are still struggling with Diabolism and witch craft. |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent(m): 4:16pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
Tampinu: If i can see it written in the Bible i will accept it. 1 Like |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by Tampinu(m): 4:17pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
blueAgent: May God forgive you. |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by Tampinu(m): 4:19pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
blueAgent: Genesis 2:13 (KJV) Psalm 87 (KJV) psalm 68 (KJV) |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by Tampinu(m): 4:28pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by easymancfc(m): 6:27pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
Tampinu: I ask you to google that you would find it there... let me help you out... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nestorians https://www.britannica.com/topic/Arianism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea https://www.britannica.com/event/Council-of-Nicaea-Christianity-325 https://www.britannica.com/event/councils-of-Ephesus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Ephesus Since you want links and proofs... these are proofs from renowned unbiased historically accurate sites Concerning Haile Selassie and Ethiopia.. The fact that Ethiopia was mentioned in the bible doesnt make it the cradle of Christianity... The cradle of Christianity is Israel... Jerusalem to be precise... The Church begun on the day and Pentecost... way before the Ethiopian Eunuch met with Philip in acts 8... The Antioch, Jerusalem, Ephesus and Rome amongst others are the places given credence by the scripture and history... After the Ethiopian Eunuch, nothing was heard about Ethiopia in the New Testament... Yes you're Right, Ethiopia also has good christian antiquity but then again so does Antioch, Ephesus, Rome, Galatia, Thessalonica etc... AS FOR THE EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE, MOST PEOPLE AND HISTORY REMEMBER HIM NOT FOR HIS IMPACT ON CHRISTIANITY BUT FOR THE RASTAFARIAN MOVEMENT, WHICH MANY PEOPLE TERM AS A "CULT" And finally, the only Lion of Judah, Prince of Peace, King of Kings, Elect of God, Earth's Rightful Ruler, Defender of The Faith we know is JESUS CHRIST.. 1 Like |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by easymancfc(m): 6:31pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
Tampinu: Here's a better question... why does it have to compare with that verse  |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by easymancfc(m): 6:38pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
blueAgent:.I already answered that before.. but in case you didnt see it... Bro you need to study your Bible more... The Elders are humans and theBible only tells of 2 people who never died but were taken up to heaven... Enoch (gen 5:24) and Elijah (2 kings 2:12)..The Word Elder comes from the greek word "presbyteros" which is found 67 times in the New testament first for the leaders of the synagogue ( mat 15:2, 21:23, mark 11:27, 14:53 etc) and for the apostles and those they ordained ( acts 11:30, 14:23, 1 peter 5:1, 2 jn 1:1, 3 jn 1:1)Now take note JOHN IS HAVING A VISION OF HEAVEN AND WE ARE ONLY AWARE OF TWO PEOPLE WHO WENT TO HEAVEN WITHOUT DEATH.... AND SO THESE ELDERS MUST HAVE DIED AND RECEIVED THE CROWN OF GLORY....ON HEBREWS 12:1, YES THEY ARE DEAD BECAUSE HEBREWS 11 WAS TALKING ABOUT OUR EXAMPLES OF FAITH, FROM ABRAHAM TO MOSES TO RAHAB ETC... ALL OF WHOM ARE DEAD... AND SINCE THEY ARE BIBLICAL EXAMPLES OF FAITH THEN THEY ARE "SAINTS" since the bible is infallible and inerrant...take Hebrews 12:1 is a continuations of Hebrews 11 and in the original manuscripts there was not chapter and verse, that was done in later times |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by easymancfc(m): 6:49pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
blueAgent: From Jesus mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Paul 1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. James James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent(m): 8:16pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
easymancfc: The word "soul" can mean anything other than a living being? it can also mean (1) life itself, or (2) the mind, or intellect. No matter which meaning is intended, the soul is still a combination of two things (body and breath), and it ceases to exist at death. Mattew10:28. The last half of the same verse proves that souls do die. It says, "But rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." The word "soul" here means life and refers to eternal life, which is a gift (Romans 6:23) that will be given to the righteous at the last day (John 6:54). No one can take away the eternal life that God bestows. |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by blueAgent(m): 8:21pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
easymancfc: As usual with your half understood Bible verses. The Soul can be used in place of life. The Bible says that the soul can work, crave food, eat, obey laws, and touch a dead body. ( Leviticus 5:2; 7:20; 23:30; Deuteronomy 12:20; Romans 13:1) Those activities involve the entire person. Is the soul immortal? No, the soul can die. Dozens of Bible verses refer to the soul as being mortal. Here are some examples: “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”—Ezekiel 18:4, 20, King James Version. In ancient Israel, the punishment for the most serious offenses was that the “soul shall be cut off.” ( Exodus 12:15, 19; Leviticus 7:20, 21, 27; 19:8, King James Version) The person would “be put to death.”—Exodus 31:14, King James Version. After a person dies, the literal term “dead soul” is used for the corpse in some Bible verses. ( Leviticus 21:11, footnote; Numbers 6:6, footnote) Although many Bible translations use the terms “dead body” or “dead person” in those verses, the original Hebrew uses the word neʹphesh, or “soul.” “Soul” can mean “life” The Bible also uses “soul” as a synonym for “life.” For example, Job 33:22 uses the Hebrew word for “soul” (neʹphesh) as a parallel for “life.” Similarly, the Bible shows that a person’s soul, or life, can be risked or lost.— Exodus 4:19; Judges 9:17; Philippians 2:30. This use of the word for “soul” helps us to understand verses in which the soul is said to be “going out” or “departing.” ( Genesis 35:18; King James Version) This figure of speech indicates that the person’s life is ending. Some translations render this expression at Genesis 35:18 as “she breathed her last.”—Good News Translation; New Jerusalem Bible. Where belief in an immortal soul comes from Christian denominations that believe in an immortal soul get this teaching, not from the Bible, but from ancient Greek philosophy. The Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Biblical references to the soul are related to the concept of breath and establish no distinction between the ethereal soul and the corporeal body. Christian concepts of a body-soul dichotomy originated with the ancient Greeks.” God does not condone merging his teachings with human philosophies, such as belief in an immortal soul. Instead, the Bible warns: “Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition.”— Colossians 2:8 |
| Re: Is Catholics Praying To Dead Saints Biblical? by Tampinu(m): 8:23pm On Jul 18, 2017 |
easymancfc: All the links you shared above are nothing but jargons. You are telling me Israel is more of a Christian Nation than Ethiopia ...You are a joker.Israel is the cradle of Christianity? heh Haba! I rest my case.Haile Selassie I defender of the FAITH is only known by the Rastafarians? You make me laugh...That the head f the oldest church in the world is not known for Christianity? Do you see the photos below? Do you know his Christian Titles including "Defender of the Faith?" [b]Tewahedo (Ge'ez ተዋሕዶ) is a Ge'ez word meaning "being made one". This word refers to the Oriental Orthodox belief in the one perfectly unified Nature of Christ; i.e., a complete union of the Divine and Human Natures into one nature is self-evident in order to accomplish the divine salvation of humankind, as opposed to the "two Natures of Christ" belief commonly held by the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran and most Protestant Churches. The Oriental Orthodox Churches adhere to a Miaphysitic Christological view followed by Cyril of Alexandria, the leading protagonist in the Christological debates of the 4th and 5th centuries. Miaphysitism holds that in the one person of Jesus Christ, Divinity and Humanity are united in one (μία, mia - "one"  nature (φύσις - "physis" without separation, without confusion, without alteration and without mixing[5] where Christ is consubstantial with God the Father in as much as He is with Mankind. Around 500 bishops within the Patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem refused to accept the Dyophysitism (two natures) doctrine decreed by the Council of Chalcedon in 451, an incident that resulted in the first major split in the main body of the Christian Church.[6]The Oriental Orthodox Churches, which today include the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, the Armenian Orthodox Church, the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Malankara Orthodox Church of India, the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, and the Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church, are referred to as "Non-Chalcedonian", and, sometimes incorrectly by outsiders as "monophysite". Monophysitism is a theology adopted by a 5th-century presbyter and archimandrite in Constantinople known as Eutyches and claims that Christ has "One Single Nature" where His Divinity absorbed His Humanity resulting in a "Simple" mathematical "One" Nature to which the Oriental Orthodox Churches object. According to these, both natures in Christ are perfectly preserved after the union in "mia physis" - One Nature; yet, not resulting in a distinct third Nature. [/b] So when the Pope and the heads of all Christian churches worldwide are meeting with Haile Selassie, It's not because of HS's position in Christianity, it is because these church leaders are RastafarI adherents, abi? Maybe it's cos the church leaders wanna smoke some weed and borrow a few reggae tapes, maybe that's why they decided to meet Haile Selassie. HaHahah  Not sure I can reason with you further on these matters. Walk good.... 
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