1st Cor 15:5


5 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Can we have reasoned discussions around this verse?

Let us examine how Adam was formed.

Gen 2:7

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That breath was God transferring life force or spirit into the object to make him a living soul. That life force is the spirit, which is also God and is present in all creation. That is the way we resemble God. God is present in all his creations. Notice that Adam becoming a living soul was a direct encounter with God - his breath.

The spirit that formed Adam resurrected and later reincarnated as Jesus Christ. This was the same breath, the same life force. Is it any wonder that while Adam lived beyond 900+years, Jesus lived for just 33 years? Also Adam's ribs were used to create Eve, and in the reincarnation, Mary (Eve ) was used as a vessel to deliver Jesus the Christ. Don't take my word for it, just read 1 Cor 15:14

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Can we now see how the death of Adam gave rise to the birth of the quickening spirit?

Examine also christ statement

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit


Christ was simply talking about death leading to multiple reincarnations.

Also christ himself was to reincarnate as he states: John 14:1

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

He talked about his departure or translation as a necessary condition for his coming as the comforter

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


Notice that christ was always talking about going, departure, coming etc, comfirming the process of incarnation, translation (de-incarnation), ressurection and birth (coming). God chooses the body to give the ressurrected spirit.

1 cor 15:35 -37

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

Notice the italics used to highlight the perogative of God to incarnate the dead into what he chooses. Laters, but only informed discussions as there are many passengers in NL!

Christianity and confussion, son of the same mother

Abu Zola:

Christianity and confussion, son of the same mother

Islam= terrorism

Hello Malbron,

Could I start by asking if you're a Christian? This question is vital if we're going to benefit from sharing on this interesting subject, albeit I think it's already whipped to death in other threads.

Then I would like to come back later to share a few things you might not have considered in the Genesis verses you cited. The whole point is that Jesus Christ IS NOT an incarnation or reincarnation of ANYBODY. Period.

This does not mean that people should not believe whatever they want to believe - even if that is reincarnation. The one thing I'm trying to point out is that you can believe whatever you want to believe about reincarnation, but please don't try to dribble it into the Bible - as the Bible does not teach any such thing anywhere. We shall get to this in due course.

Cheers.

@Marlbron,

While we on my initial comments, let me quickly say a few things about the references you cited.

Marlbron:

That breath was God transferring life force or spirit into the object to make him a living soul. That life force is the spirit, which is also God and is present in all creation.

Eh, sorry - that is pantheism you're making out there, and the Bible does not teach any such ideas.

The spirit that formed Adam resurrected and later reincarnated as Jesus Christ.

Wow-wow-wow. .  hang on, mate! One thing at a time and don't jump guns.

(a)  Where can you show that Adam 'resurrected' - what scriptures exactly say that very thing?
(b)  Where does it say that Adam later reincarnated as Jesus Christ?

I don't think that it helps to make statements that you can't establish by clear references, so please sort these out.

This was the same breath, the same life force. Is it any wonder that while Adam lived beyond 900+years, Jesus lived for just 33 years? Also Adam's ribs were used to create Eve, and in the reincarnation, Mary (Eve ) was used as a vessel to deliver Jesus the Christ. Don't take my word for it, just read 1 Cor 15:14

Dude, 1 Corinthians 15:14 is not about reincarnation but rather about RESURRECTION - "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain." This is the theme (resurrection) that runs through 1 Corinthians 15, as is manifest in verse 42 which you quoted:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

. .  see? It did not say the "reincarnation of the dead" - don't confuse them, please.

Can we now see how the death of Adam gave rise to the birth of the quickening spirit?

Nope, because that is not taught anywhere in any verse.

Examine also christ statement

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit

Christ was simply talking about death leading to multiple reincarnations.

Try harder - Christ was not teaching 'multiple reincarnations'.

He talked about his departure or translation as a necessary condition for his coming as the comforter

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


Notice that christ was always talking about going, departure, coming etc, comfirming the process of incarnation, translation (de-incarnation), ressurection and birth (coming). God chooses the body to give the ressurrected spirit.

John 14 does not teach anything about 'de-incarnation, . . incarnation. .  reincarnation', etc. Nope. Nada. Zilch. Nix. In fact, in verse 26 the Comforter is clearly identified: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you".

Laters, but only informed discussions as there are many passengers in NL!

We're waiting for this 'informed discussion'. Laters.

Viaro,

What can I say! You are a brave man! Welcome. I am a Christian, though disagree with (your) overbearing Pentecostal beliefs which are in error in many aspects of scripture. Let me leave it there for now.

I need to clear up a few points real quick, so that we do not get confused about ressurrection. When death occurs, the physical body which had hitherto trapped the spirit, dies, but the spirit is released which in effect means resurrection. Resurrection is misunderstood to mean the person coming back to earth in the same body, no. God has made one channel through which all creatures including himself come to inhabit the earth plane - the womb of a woman. It is after resurrection that incarnation can happen. When ressurection happens, we physically cannot see it as we cannot see the spirit. However Christ in his advent proved that resurrection happens.

Let us take the case of Jesus Christ. After his death, he ressurrected but not with the same body. This explains why

a) They thought he was the gardner.
b) He did not want them to touch him initially - too much spiritual energy.
c) They did not recognize him. How come you do not recognize a guy after 3 days of death? Lazarus was recognized. Think!
d) He did not mix with them anymore, but was appearing and disappearing at will. He was moreless operating on earth in a glorified body.
e) He was "recognized" only after their eyes were "opened", after "hearing his voice". That is, they were spiritually awakened to "see" that he was Christ.

Basically, Christ dieing was for him to prepare for his come back or re-incarnation or 2nd coming, choose your term. His resurrection physically was moreoless to prove the concept of resurrection. The instructive thing about it is that his resurrection did not happen with the physical body he had before, hence they could not recognize him.  He looked human, but was not the man they associated with before, even though he tried to put them at ease by eating with them and instructing them. It was no longer the same, there was a separation. He needed to leave, so he can come back again for another assignment of rulership.

One of the errors in modern christianity is to assume that he will drop from the sky.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

We were told in Isaiah 7:14

14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel

That came to pass in the birth of Jesus Christ.

We were also told in Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.


It seems to me that Jesus Christ did not rule in any throne in his first coming or incarnation. His second coming will be that of Kingship and Judgement. this is pretty straight foward.

We also saw that in Rev 12: 5, that his destined rule and kingship in his second coming was foretold.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


I guess you may say that he will come in from the clouds, but it means you did not quite understand the scriptures. Lets see
Acts 1:9

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



The key to understanding this passage is to imagine you escort a friend from Lagos and watch him board a vehicle to say Kano and another friend of his who is closer now taps you on the shoulder and says "why do you keep looking towards the direction?". You will realize that the operative key here is the question "why?". Once that was uttered, it means that it is not necessary to look for him from heaven. Simple. They go further to assure the disciples of the manner he will come. He left as a being, therefore he will come back as a being, hence the revelatios to John the divine in Rev 12;5.  This man had also foretold that he will come like a thief in the night. A thief always comes unannounced. It is only when he starts shooting that you realize that someone has entered your premises.

I will later address you on the main issue of Adam and Jesus plus other issues, gotta go.

Eh, sorry - that is pantheism you're making out there, and the Bible does not teach any such ideas.

But the Bible wil not teach you everything. The Spirit should be the one to teach you. You are made up of water blood and spirit and it is from the spirit that we resemble God. Remember that 'God is a spirit, and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth'.

Wow-wow-wow. . hang on, mate! One thing at a time and don't jump guns.

(a) Where can you show that Adam 'resurrected' - what scriptures exactly say that very thing?
(b) Where does it say that Adam later reincarnated as Jesus Christ?

I don't think that it helps to make statements that you can't establish by clear references, so please sort these out.


I thought the refernce was clear. The first Adam was a living soul. The last Adam, means that Jesus was an incarnate of Adam, period. It is not rocket science. If you read the verses before, it tells you that death to one resulted in the other.

see? It did not say the "reincarnation of the dead" - don't confuse them, please.



Ressurection occurs only for the dead because that is the point of separation of the spirit from the flesh. after that (ressurection), the spirit can come (reincarnate) with another body. That was why Paul argued in 1 Cor 15: 9

9 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

And he went further to explain in 1 Cor 15:35

5 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body [/b]do they [b]come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 but God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body

Note the bolded. the issue of reincarnation was dealt with by Paul.

Thank you, Marlbron.

Marlbron:

What can I say! You are a brave man! Welcome. I am a Christian, though disagree with (your) overbearing Pentecostal beliefs which are in error in many aspects of scripture. Let me leave it there for now.

It's okay to disagree, although I don't remember putting up an argument for pentecostalism here. .  or did I?

I need to clear up a few points real quick, so that we do not get confused about ressurrection. When death occurs, the physical body which had hitherto trapped the spirit, dies, but the spirit is released which in effect means resurrection. Resurrection is misunderstood to mean the person coming back to earth in the same body, no. God has made one channel through which all creatures including himself come to inhabit the earth plane - the womb of a woman. It is after resurrection that incarnation can happen. When ressurection happens, we physically cannot see it as we cannot see the spirit. However Christ in his advent proved that resurrection happens.

For the most part, well done. But your idea that {'it is after resurrection that incarnation can happen'} does not resonate with me because I don't find any such thing taught anywhere in the Bible. As long as we don't jump gun and start confusing the meaning of words here, we shall go on just fine.

Let us take the case of Jesus Christ. After his death, he ressurrected but not with the same body.

. . And that is NOT 'incarnation'.

This explains why

a) They thought he was the gardner.
b) He did not want them to touch him initially - too much spiritual energy.
c) They did not recognize him. How come you do not recognize a guy after 3 days of death? Lazarus was recognized. Think!
d) He did not mix with them anymore, but was appearing and disappearing at will. He was moreless operating on earth in a glorified body.
e) He was "recognized" only after their eyes were "opened", after "hearing his voice". That is, they were spiritually awakened to "see" that he was Christ.

I'm sorry, but all of the above still have no bearing on the Biblical teaching of resurrection.

Let me help:
(a)  Mary's mistaking Him for a gardener does not prove anything about incarnation or reincarnation.
(b)  None of the verses teaches the 'too much energy' stuff - did His 'energy' deplete when He later asked Thomas to touch Him (John 20:27)?
(c)  Reason they could not recognize Him immediately is given in Mark 16:12 (He appeared in "another form" and Luke 24:16 ('their eyes were holden that they should not know him'). This all does not lend any weight to proving anything about reincarnation or incarnation or de-incarnation, whether it was only 3 days or many centuries.
(d)  He actually mixed with them - for a period of no less than forty days (Acts 1:3)
(e)  Yes, 'their eyes were opened, and they knew him' (Luke 24:31) - and what does that prove about reincranation?

Basically, Christ dieing was for him to prepare for his come back or re-incarnation or 2nd coming, choose your term.

Reincarnation is not resurrection, and resurrection if not the second coming, and the second coming is NOT reincarnation. This was why I noted earlier that we should not confuse the terms we use, because I notice that when people confuse the meaning of the words they are discussing, a lot of back and forths begin to come into play.

The second coming is occurs when Christ comes from above (Acts 1:11; Mark 13:26 and 1 Thes. 4:16). Resurrection, however, is a rising from the dead (Mark 6:16).

But reincarnation is a very different thing from resurrection - they are world apart, and if you consult authors who are authorities on reincranation, you will find that they do not ever - I mean, NEVER EVER - confuse 'reincarnation' for 'resurrection'. If you find any scholarly work where anyone is taking them to mean the same thing, please post it here with the source or link and let's comb it through and through.

His resurrection physically was moreoless to prove the concept of resurrection.

Good - that says it all. The resurrection of Christ was not to prove reincarnation, and that says it all for me.

I guess you may say that he will come in from the clouds, but it means you did not quite understand the scriptures.

Let me see how you explicate them.

Acts 1:9

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


The key to understanding this passage is to imagine you escort a friend from Lagos and watch him board a vehicle to say Kano and another friend of his who is closer now taps you on the shoulder and says "why do you keep looking towards the direction?". You will realize that the operative key here is the question "why?". Once that was uttered, it means that it is not necessary to look for him from heaven. Simple.

Er, please don't even go there - I shall not imagine anything here but stick with what the Bible declares. What you have up there is a very, very poor attempt at apagogic logic.

There is not a single verse in the entire Bible that helps what you are saying here, because the angels clearly indicated He will yet return in the same manner. Hear them in Acts 1:11 - "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven". Of course, many other references show that He shall come back in the same manner - from heaven:

[list]Daniel 7:13 - 'I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him'

Matthew 24:30 - '. . and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory'

Mark 13:26 - 'And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory' (see also Luke 21:27)

1 Thes. 4:16 - 'For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first'

Revelation 1:7 - 'Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen'.[/list]

All these and more show that He shall come back in that same manner that you denied - from heaven!

Cheers.

Marlbron:

But the Bible wil not teach you everything. The Spirit should be the one to teach you. You are made up of water blood and spirit and it is from the spirit that we resemble God. Remember that 'God is a spirit, and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth'.

The Spirit of God does not teach pantheism in the Bible. You may look elsewhere for that belief and any other thing else; but you won't find patheism in the Bible - nor does the Spirit of God ask us to interpolate just about any idea into the Bible.

I thought the refernce was clear. The first Adam was a living soul. The last Adam, means that Jesus was an incarnate of Adam, period. It is not rocket science. If you read the verses before, it tells you that death to one resulted in the other.

Those verses do not mention anything about incarnation of Adam - and it doesn't take rocket science to see either.

Ressurection occurs only for the dead because that is the point of separation of the spirit from the flesh. after that (ressurection), the spirit can come (reincarnate) with another body.

Lol, no authority on reincarnation will tell you that reincarnation comes after resurrection. Dude, please get a good grasp of what you are discussing and not making just about any remarks that fills the page.

That was why Paul argued in 1 Cor 15: 9

9 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

That was supposed to be verse 19, not verse 9 - nevermind, we all make mistakes. However, the argument for verse 19 comes from verse 17 - "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins". . which is nothing other than resurrection.

And he went further to explain in 1 Cor 15:35

What he went on to explain is RESURRECTION - read it again: "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" The dead being raised is the theme all through that chapter, see verse 13-14. there is not the slightest hint of reincarnation in those passages.

Now as regards the body of the resurrected (not bodies of the "reincarnated", it tells us in verse 52 that "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed", which is not the language of teachers of reincarntion.

Viaro,

I must thank you for keeping it clean so far. I hear your points but they are due to lack of understanding of the scripture.

Er, please don't even go there - I shall not imagine anything here but stick with what the Bible declares. What you have up there is a very, very poor attempt at apagogic logic.

There is not a single verse in the entire Bible that helps what you are saying here, because the angels clearly indicated He will yet return in the same manner. Hear them in Acts 1:11 - "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven". Of course, many other references show that He shall come back in the same manner - from heaven:

Daniel 7:13 - 'I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him'

Matthew 24:30 - '. . and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory'

Mark 13:26 - 'And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory' (see also Luke 21:27)

1 Thes. 4:16 - 'For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first'

Revelation 1:7 - 'Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen'.


All these and more show that He shall come back in that same manner that you denied - from heaven!


1. Its not apalogic. Its the only way to explain the scripture. People were looking towards heaven and angels appear, who have better info on Christ's 2nd coming and they querried their looking up in the sky. If they querried it, then it is logical to assume that it is not necessary to look at the sky. In your day to day existence have you not querried things when you disapprove of it? Reflect carefully on the word "why?'' .

2. What manner did they see him leaving? They saw him leaving as a being. He will come back as a being. That was why the scriptures recorded his birth in his 2nd advent Isaiah 9: 6, and Rev 12:5 or were those verses not dealing with the risen Christ? The Bible is consistent.

3. The presence of God in scripture has always been denoted by the use of the term cloud. Search even from the old testament. Coming in the clouds is coming in his heavenly glory. All eyes cannot see him if he comes from the sky. Will someone in London see him if he is in the sky over the States?

4. The end time story in mathew and mark is not well understood. Let me reproduce Mark 13: 26

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29 so ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

let us do a verse by verse explanation

26. What is meant by the son of man coming in the clouds? Lets assume for a moment that you are right and he comes from the sky, then why does the end not come after his coming in the sky? Read down to the end. Does it mean that we will all be gathered to the sky and living in the clouds with Christ? How will we function? How will we work, eat etc - in the clouds? Haba! Have you forgotten the beatitudes? John 5:

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Have you also ignored our Lord's prayer, whch you recite everyday? ", Thy kingdom come, ". That was all Christ preached the coming of God's kingdom to earth. Afterall Adam was created on earth not in heaven efore the devil struck. How come with Jesus 2nd coming to restore things you believe you will live in the sky?

27. He will send his angels, This is the gathering of the elects to the earth. The resurrected will incarnate back to earth with different bodies. That was why he also said those who sacrificed for him will in the life to come benefit more than 100x. The life to come will definitely mean that they will be born into the world.

28-29. The two verses comfirm that after his coming in a cloud , the end is near but ot yet come. That is why you need to understand that the coming in the cloud is really a spiritual expression of his glory. This much is confirmed in the Revelation. We see the lamb releasing the seals and the terrible effects on the men of the world resulting in their scrambling to hide from he that sitteth on the throne. That throne is on the earth here.

Read luke 17 again. Note the bolded portions. The son of man will be revealed, consistent with a thief in the night.

Luke 17

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Noah lived among them and was not recognized or listened to, until the flood came. Therefore the son of man, will live among men and will also not be listened to untill he reveals himself via the seals and judgement.

I'm sorry, but all of the above still have no bearing on the Biblical teaching of resurrection.

Let me help:
(a) Mary's mistaking Him for a gardener does not prove anything about incarnation or reincarnation.
(b) None of the verses teaches the 'too much energy' stuff - did His 'energy' deplete when He later asked Thomas to touch Him (John 20:27)?
(c) Reason they could not recognize Him immediately is given in Mark 16:12 (He appeared in "another form" and Luke 24:16 ('their eyes were holden that they should not know him'). This all does not lend any weight to proving anything about reincarnation or incarnation or de-incarnation, whether it was only 3 days or many centuries.
(d) He actually mixed with them - for a period of no less than forty days (Acts 1:3)
(e) Yes, 'their eyes were opened, and they knew him' (Luke 24:31) - and what does that prove about reincranation?

Well you clearly misunderstood me here. I was only trying to explain that Christ resurrected on earth with a different body, and to show that resurrection is necessasry for reincarnation

I think you also need help (no pun intended) with Thess and Daniel. IN thesss I have decided to start from 15, to give a background. Again Paul was trying to encourae them in the faith, to help their steadfastness.

1 Thes. 4:16

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



These are highly spiritual verses that if you are not careful you could misinterprete them. Let us follow your own interpretation to show the shallowness.
16. Christ will come down with a big shout and trumpet and the dead in Christ will ressurrect first. The the living faithful shall rise to the sky to meet the Lord in the sky and be with the Lord forever in the sky.

Hmmmm. Take a deep breath. start from vs 17. Caught up to be with the Lord in the air and so shall we be with the Lord. Now where is the air. Where does it start, where does it end? Air, air, air. I know that I walk on air, I live inside the air right now. Everything above ground is the air. Below ground is the Deep. Will be always be with the Lord forever in the sky? No sir. His kingdom will be on earth, which is where the air is. The air is the earth, my oga. The expression caught up is a spiritual one, meaning to be in one spiritual accord with Him.Similarly, the trump and shout are spiritual depictions of what will happen. Why will someone who comes like a thief in the night start trumpeting and making noise for you to see him? it means we need to recheck our understandig of spiritual terms. The word rise means reincarnate. So the dead will reincarnate and be with Christ in his own kingdom, so the other elects existing will also be in one spiritual accord with them, on earth and so shall they be together with the lord forever- on earth!!

Daniel's prophecis.


Lets start with Dan 2:44

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever

Dan7:9
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion  is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

In the end of times, the kingdom of God will be set-up, which will overthrow the religion and kingdoms of men. Dan 2:44. That was again confirmed in the next vision when he saw God being ministered to by many people Dan 7:9. It was in his Father's kingdom that the Christ was enthroned Dan7:13.

Notice the son of man comes with clouds of heaven. This is not like he dropped from the sky. It was an affirmation of his heavenly glory.

Incorrect premise. The Bible never said Jesus is the Incarnation of Adam.

Marlbron:

I must thank you for keeping it clean so far. I hear your points but they are due to lack of understanding of the scripture.

I went through your explanations, and yet there is not a single line where you have established the distinctions between reincarnation, incarnation and resurrection to show that the Bible points to Christ as the incarnation of Adam. Rather, you only affirmed the very points in my previous replies - which would make it unnecessary for me to repeat myself. A summary may be apt:

1. Its not apalogic. Its the only way to explain the scripture. People were looking towards heaven and angels appear, who have better info on Christ's 2nd coming and they querried their looking up in the sky. If they querried it, then it is logical to assume that it is not necessary to look at the sky. In your day to day existence have you not querried things when you disapprove of it? Reflect carefully on the word "why?'' .

The angels in Acts 1:11 made clear that Christ shall come back in the very same manner that He ascended:

   (a)  'this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,'

   (b)  'shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven'

The idea that it is not necessary to look into the sky is directly opposite to what the agels said. Jesus went up into heaven - He shall return in the same manner! That was their point - and the other texts I cited all bear the very same thing!

2. What manner did they see him leaving? They saw him leaving as a being. He will come back as a being. That was why the scriptures recorded his birth in his 2nd advent Isaiah 9: 6, and Rev 12:5 or were those verses not dealing with the risen Christ? The Bible is consistent.

What do you mean by 'a being' - were you expecting Him to return as other than a Being? Isaiah 9:6 does not deal with the resurrection but rather with His birth - "For unto us a child is born" - and this 'birth' does not suggest a 're-birth' by reincarnation. The same thing in Rev. 12:5 - it does not say that the child was 're-born' after a previous birth, and it is futile to twist what those verses say.

3. The presence of God in scripture has always been denoted by the use of the term cloud. Search even from the old testament. Coming in the clouds is coming in his heavenly glory. All eyes cannot see him if he comes from the sky. Will someone in London see him if he is in the sky over the States?

'Coming in the clouds in His heavenly glory' is not said to be a partial event where only a few would see Him - the Bible declares clearly that EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM (Revelation 1:7).

4. The end time story in mathew and mark is not well understood.

I don't see how you have shown a better understanding. It seems you're more given to your own personal interpolations by completely ignoring the principles of Biblical exegesis. Since that is what you have done, nothing you try to explicate would have any weight - which is why you have repeatedly confused between the terms 'reincarnation' and 'resurrection'.

let us do a verse by verse explanation

26. What is meant by the son of man coming in the clouds? Lets assume for a moment that you are right and he comes from the sky, then why does the end not come after his coming in the sky? Read down to the end.

Something tells me you are deliberately NOT READING the verses but hastily jumping into conclusions. The passage in Mark 13:26 does not say that 'the end' comes instantaneously at His second coming - in fact, verse 24 describes events in that epoch with the words "in those days". When you don't settle down to carefully note these points, you bring up all sorts of unnecessary questions that the verses do not point to in your favour.

Does it mean that we will all be gathered to the sky and living in the clouds with Christ? How will we function? How will we work, eat etc - in the clouds? Haba! Have you forgotten the beatitudes?

Have you never read that in the resurrection of the blessed, people do not live in the same manner as in this present experience? READ IT AGAIN:

[list]Matthew 22: 30
'For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.'

Luke 20:35-36
'But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.'[/list]

Goodness! Marlbron, please just cut the crap!   If you can be asking those silly questions, it then shows that YOU HAVE NEVER READ THE BIBLE and I'm not going to keep entertaining your deliberate obfuscations and immature questions!

When Traugott said this -

Traugott:

Incorrect premise. The Bible never said Jesus is the Incarnation of Adam.

. .  it just sums up the whole thing here.

I would have hoped to see you point to any single verse that says that Jesus Christ is the "incarnation" of Adam. There is not a single verse that teaches any such, and trying to twist the words of any verse for your obfuscations will not help your cause.

Cheers.

Marlbron:

1st Cor 15:5


5 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Can we have reasoned discussions around this verse?

Marlbron:


The spirit that formed Adam resurrected and later reincarnated as Jesus Christ. This was the same breath, the same life force. Is it any wonder that while Adam lived beyond 900+years, Jesus lived for just 33 years? Also Adam's ribs were used to create Eve, and in the reincarnation, Mary (Eve ) was used as a vessel to deliver Jesus the Christ. Don't take my word for it, just read 1 Cor 15:14

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Can we now see how the death of Adam gave rise to the birth of the quickening spirit?

Examine also christ statement

The are is nothing like reincarnation. The conclusion you came to was based on mis understanding of 1cor 15:42

1 Cor. 15:42-44
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: [44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

It is not making reference to the body of Adam beign sown to give birth to christ but rather it is talking about the body of Christ being sown to give birth to a glorified one. well im yet to read all your previous post so as to understand you better.

Another misunderstanding of yours is about christ becoming second Adam . Firstly the name" Adam " means "mankind" Species of beign or human race Second Adam means second kind of mankind.
So Jesus was called second Adam only for one reason, he represents the new race.
Which is The new creation.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The first Adam represents a race of people. The last mankind (Adam) represent a new race of people.

1 Cor. 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Viaro,

Let me sumarize.

You disbelieve the scripture in Isaiah 9:6 as foretelling the birth of Christ in his 2nd coming? You also dis-believe the revelation of John in Rev 12:5 about a child born to rule?

There is a marked difference between that and Isaiah 7:14, the virgin birth prediction. Firstly, Jesus did not rule in his 1st coming. He died a shameful death for our sins. His rulership was for his 2nd appearance, which the latter text in Isaiah addresses and confirmed in the Revelation. Because he will be born or he will re-incarnate, he also confirms in the same Revelation that he will come with a new name. Rev 3:12. If he will not be born why come with a new name? Why not answer the former name - Jesus? Afterall if we see a blonde bearded man in the sky we will all know he is the one! What of his often repeated statements that he will come like a thief in the night? How does a thief come in the night? Will he ring a bell for the residents to know he is coming? Na wao! This one pass me! Think, my man, think!

The truth is constant and the Bible did not contradict itself. Our interpretation of the Bible leads to contradiction. He has accomplished the first assignment and in his second coming will take on a greater role - that of rulership and kingship over the whole world. I hope you now see the differences in the Isaiah texts mentioned?


Now I do believe in resurrection, but not in the way you imagine it. I have said that resurrection happens after death, allowing the spirit to be available for reincarnation with a new body (as deemed fit by God). That was the explanation Paul offered to his audience when they wanted to know what body one is raised (reincarnates) with.

1 cor 15:35 -37

35 But some man will say, How are the dead [b]raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:[/b]

We do not control the body we reincarnate with.

* raised = resurrect

come = reincarnate

Joagbaje,

Read the account of the transfiguration and what the disciples said to christ after they saw the vision. christ himself comfirmed that Elija had come as John the baptist.

Read also the angel telling his Father that he will come in the spirit of Elija. What else ? read the thread!

@ Malbron

Marlbron:

* raised = resurrect

come = reincarnate

Joagbaje,

Read the account of the transfiguration and what the disciples said to christ after they saw the vision. christ himself comfirmed that Elija had come as John the baptist.

Read also the angel telling his Father that he will come in the spirit of Elija. What else ? read the thread!

The first thing you need to realise is that Elijah never died! According to your doctrine of reincarnation, a man has to die first. Elijah was caught up alive. so also was Enoch.

Hebrews 11:5
    By faith[b] Enoch was translated that he should not see death;[/b] and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. [/b]

John was not Elijah but he came with Elijah kind of anointing or ministry, He could challenge the king, He dresed like Elijah.But he was not Elijah, He only came in the spirit of Elijah


Luke 1:17
    And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

John himself admitted he wasnt Elijah  when people confronted him.

John 1:21
    And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

The only time Elijah appeared in person was at the mount of transfiguration. If he was John ,they would have addressed him as john and not as Elijah , because they knew him.
John was a greater prophet than Elijah .Jesus also testified that John was the greatest of all prophets

Matthew 11:11
    Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

To come in the spirit of elijah is to come in the power or anointing of Elijah. Just like when the bible says "The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet"

1 Cor. 14:32
    And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Joagbaje,

I have not defined reincarnation the way you stated. Anyone that defines reincarnation that way is ignorant,simple. Reincarnation means a spirit that once existed on a plane coming back to that plane after his former existence. There are many means of exist froma plane: death, ascension, translation and disappearance. Choose your method,but in each case, the spirit ceases to exist in that plane. With respect to the earth plane, the spirit comes back through the womb of a woman, a channel created by God for all spirits.

You contradict yourself when you affirm the ff verse:

Luke 1:17
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.


As man you are made up of blood,water and spirit. If John is born in the spirit of Elijah, it simply means that Elijah has re-incarnated into the world as John the baptist. This is why Jesus confirmed to the disciples that Elijah had come as John the baptist after the transfiguration.

How simple can this concept get,and yet how difficult it is for people to comprehend? No wonder Christ said "ïf you can accept it, "

Coming in the spirit of Elijah is not making reference to the human spirit. There are different kinds of usage .
Spirit of sportsmanship, spirit of a warrior.etc. Spirit couldt be used for attitude,character. and also the invisible inner man .You dont just get carried away by the word spirit. The spirit of a man becomes free from the body at death. Elijah did not die, He is still alive in his old body. He couldnt have left his body in heaven and pick another body in Mary, then after they beheaded him ,he picked up another body,
The spirit of Elijah is not making reference to the inner self but the anointing , which is the operation of God's power in his life. It is talking about the kind of grace upon Elijah, it represents an office and not personality. If you hear a deeper life pastor preach ,he doesnt need introduction. because of the spirit or the grace upon that ministry,

Philip. 1:7 , "ye all are partakers of my grace".

Romans 8:9
, Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Spirits dont forget, spirits are immortal. Elijah as a spirit would not have forgotten he came before, whe John wsa asked if he was Elijah he said "NO".

Coming in the spirit of Elijah is not making reference to the human spirit. There are different kinds of usage .
Spirit of sportsmanship, spirit of a warrior.etc. Spirit couldt be used for attitude,character. and also the invisible inner man .You dont just get carried away by the word spirit. The spirit of a man becomes free from the body at death. Elijah did not die, He is still alive in his old body. He couldnt have left his body in heaven and pick another body in Mary, then after they beheaded him ,he picked up another body,
The spirit of Elijah is not making reference to the inner self but the anointing , which is the operation of God's power in his life. It is talking about the kind of grace upon Elijah, it represents an office and not personality. If you hear a deeper life pastor preach ,he doesnt need introduction. because of the spirit or the grace upon that ministry,

Philip. 1:7 , "ye all are partakers of my grace".

Romans 8:9
, Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Spirits dont forget, spirits are immortal. Elijah as a spirit would not have forgotten he came before, whe John wsa asked if he was Elijah he said "NO".


Joagbaje,

I still do not see how the use of spirit should be interpreted. Please explain better.

So you are sure that Elijah is still alive in his old body? Any bibilical reference?

So because he went up, he entered heaven with his body? Is that scriptural or a figment of your imagination?

What the hell is annointing?Please define?

Coming in the spirit of Elijah is not making reference to the human spirit. There are different kinds of usage .
Spirit of sportsmanship, spirit of a warrior.etc. Spirit couldt be used for attitude,character. and also the invisible inner man .You dont just get carried away by the word spirit. The spirit of a man becomes free  from the body at death. Elijah did not die, He is still alive in his old body. He couldnt have left his body in heaven and pick another body in Mary, then after they beheaded him ,he picked up another body,
The spirit of Elijah is not making reference to the inner self but the anointing , which is the operation of God's power in his life. It is talking about the kind of grace upon Elijah, it represents an office and not personality. If you hear a deeper life pastor preach ,he doesnt need introduction. because of the spirit or the grace upon that ministry,

Philip. 1:7 , "ye all are partakers of my grace".

Romans 8:9
   ,  Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Spirits dont forget, spirits are immortal. Elijah as a spirit would not have forgotten he came before, whe  John wsa asked if he was Elijah he said "NO".


Joagbaje,

I still do not see how the use of spirit should be interpreted. Please explain better.

So you are sure that Elijah is still alive in his old body? Any bibilical reference?

So because he went up, he entered heaven with his body? Is that scriptural or a figment of your imagination?

What  is annointing? Please define?

Spirits dont forget, spirits are immortal. Elijah as a spirit would not have forgotten he came before, whe John wsa asked if he was Elijah he said "NO".



How can he remember, when the end of time has not reached? The guy who knew was Christ who comfirmed to them but added "if you will receive it,

Obviosly you have also disbelieved Him!

Malbron as you advised me the other day: its a waste of energy. Odd people who believe that Elijah went into "heaven" (wherever that is) with his physical body simply cannot be reasoned with.

Deep Sight:

Malbron as you advised me the other day: its a waste of energy. Odd people who believe that Elijah went into "heaven" (wherever that is) with his physical body simply cannot be reasoned with.

What makes us "odd people" simply because we have established that Elijah did not die and YOU have not been able to show otherwise? Why is it that you have come down this low in your duplicity?

Marlbron:

Coming in the spirit of Elijah is not making reference to the human spirit

I still do not see how the use of spirit should be interpreted. Please explain better.

So you are sure that Elijah is still alive in his old body? Any bibilical reference?

So because he went up, he entered heaven with his body? Is that scriptural or a figment of your imagination?

What the hell is annointing?Please define?

The word spirit is often used to denote the temper, disposition; thus we say, a man of a generous spirit, or of a revengeful spirit,proud spirit.jealous spirit. etc. It is also used for the anointing of God's  spirit upon a person. ; spirit of wisdom, spirit of might, etc
[color=#990000]
Numbers 5:14
And the spirit of jealous[/b]y come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:

[b]Deut. 34:9
    And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the Lord commanded Moses.

The coming of John also was in the anointing of Elijah . This is different from the human spirit of Elijah. The details were given to John's father Zechariah, in Luke

Luke 1:16-18
    And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. [17] And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. [18] And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

You also have to remember that  John was not the first person to functioon in the spirit of Elijah. Elisha who was most junior among sons of the prophets once desired this.

2 Kings 2:9
    And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spiri[/b]t be upon me.

When Elijah was finally taken up ,he got what he desired, the spirit of Elijah came on hin. The anointing  of the office.

[b]2 Kings 2:15
    And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

They bowed to him despite the fact that he was the lowest in rank before. The spirit ,bold ness ,audacity and powerr of Elijah. Elijah was a very passionae man for God, remember how he killed prophet of baaal.

1 Kings 19:10
    And he (Elijah) said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left;

That was the kind of anointing , attitude,power and audacity needed to precede Jesus because as at this time,there was so much divisions among the jews ,there were numerous sects, John had to unite everybody in preparation.

Jesus needed to ask if they will receive it because ,they didnt beleive in Jesus as messiah, becasue they were still waiting for Elijah, So Jesus had to tell them Elijah has come already, .The statement was to confirm that the messiah has come since "elijah" has already come

Jesus needed to ask if they will receive it because ,they didnt beleive in Jesus as messiah, becasue they were still waiting for Elijah, So Jesus had to tell them Elijah has come already, .The statement was to confirm that the messiah has come since "elijah" has already come

Please read mathew 17; 10 -12 and explain that in view of your preference for the term annointing rather than spirit

Jesus needed to ask if they will receive it because ,they didnt beleive in Jesus as messiah, becasue they were still waiting for Elijah, So Jesus had to tell them Elijah has come already, .The statement was to confirm that the messiah has come since "elijah" has already come

Please read mathew 17; 10 -12 and explain that in view of your preference for the term annointing rather than spirit

I still want to know where you got the impression that Elijah entered heaven with his body. Or let me ask, where is heaven?

Greetings All:

I have watched and read with keen interest the several discussions on this resurrection vs reincarnation topic. While they are doubtlessly riveting, I think they are now bordering on repetitive monotony ( I don’t know if anyone else feels this way).

Is it possible to recommend that if the Christians debating this and other points of Christian doctrine have reached a stalemate in this and several other threads—that they agree to disagree and move on? I say this specifically because I wonder if the teaching on resurrection or reincarnation is cardinal to the Christian faith. Is this one of those teachings whereby if one does not have the correct view, one is then deemed to be heretical and thus robbed of the basic salvational grace inherent in Christianity?

I am persuaded that this present debate is not as fundamental to the basic Christian faith as say discussions on the Doctrine of God, or Doctrine of the Trinity, or Doctrine of Christ, or the accurate biblical Doctrine on Man, or the real Christian Doctrine on Salvation, and perhaps the Christian Doctrine on Revelations—these being doctrines that Christians must have at least as similar and as basic a view on to be minimally considered Christians and to merit heaven despite other peripheral doctrinal differences.

I want to make an earnest plea to the Christians in these discussions to consider the strong option of agreeing to disagree ultimately—the hope being that in the end some of these present disagreements may be explained and resolved fully. Let it not be a wedge to divide Christians and thus make a mockery of Christianity.

Now, I have to say that I am NOT convinced that the bible (or specifically the Christian faith) teaches any such thing as re-incarnation. Unfortunately, as I have come to discover in the threads where reincarnation is argued, I find that the word is given different meanings and crafted in such a manner that one may look casually at things and affect to see verses that would bolster that idea. Now one may argue that persons who have managed to see reincarnation in the bible have explicitly misunderstood the necessary verses or that they have a rather unique and possibly inconsistent idea of what reincarnation truly is (as held by majority of people who espouse the idea), but that’s not to say however that there are not shades of meaning in the various texts which are sufficiently cryptic or symbolic as to warrant these exegeses that some of you have nobly embarked upon.

I am not however going to go into such fanciful details primarily because I am not persuaded of their immediate relevance in a discussion board not specifically devoted to Christianity and Christian teachings—but rather crowded with all manner of people: theists (non-Christian theists), atheists or otherwise—who perhaps are only too glad to watch a comedy of horrors as supposedly Christian brethren rip themselves to bits, with acrid language no less, on decidedly peripheral points of doctrine. Perhaps this underscores the necessity of a dedicated Christian subforum?

Of course there are boatloads of other philosophical and theological discussions to be had here if one really has the stomach for these protracted discussions. At any rate, and not to put a dampener on things, one would really hope that these discussions shed more light than heat. And if it turns out that an impasse is reached, it is hoped that discussants would at least have the presence of mind to agree to disagree and thus move on.

Cheers.

Marlbron:


Please read mathew 17; 10 -12 and explain that in view of your preference for the term annointing rather than spirit

I still want to know where you got the impression that Elijah entered heaven with his body. Or let me ask, where is heaven?

All the time God took people, he took them alive bodily. beginning with Enoch , Elijah, There is debate on Moses because of his missing body, Jesu also was taken up bodily.
The old saints that went to heaven with Jesus went bodily too. Graves had to open for them. A spirit does not need grave or door to open.

Matthew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Paul also talked about how he went to heaven bodily. Though this had debates and controversy.

2 Cor. 12:2-4
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth [4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

God always take people bodily, The next event is the rapture , we shall go bodily too.

1 Thes. 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Heaven is a place in God, beyond human calculation. The bible talked about three classes of heaven.
I know people generaly point upwards to heaven but we know the earth is spherical and the upward poiting dont make spiritual sence. If its a planet somewhere I dont know.But all I know is that heaven is above this realm of life. .

[b]All the time God took people, he took them alive bodily. beginning with Enoch , Elijah, There is debate on Moses because of his missing body, Jesu also was taken up bodily.
The old saints that went to heaven with Jesus went bodily too. Graves had to open for them. A spirit does not need grave or door to open.

Matthew 27:52-53
    And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Paul also talked about how he went to heaven bodily. Though this had debates and controversy.

2 Cor. 12:2-4
    I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth [4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

God always take people bodily, The next event is the rapture , we shall go bodily too.

1 Thes. 4:17
    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Heaven is a place in God, beyond human calculation. The bible talked about three classes of heaven.
I know people generaly point upwards to heaven  but we know the earth is spherical and the upward poiting dont make spiritual sence.  If its a planet somewhere I dont know.But all I know is that heaven is above this realm of life. .[/b]

Interesting references but misunderstood.

The fact that different people were taken up bodily does not mean that when received in the cloud, the earthly body is still with them to heaven. There is no physical place called heaven in the sky. Heaven is a spiritual plane for spiritual existence. If they went up with physical bodies, it must have been shed for spiritual body before entering heaven. The physical body is suitable for earthly sojorn. Read Genesis 1, you will agree that God made man from the dust of the earth. The only heavenly aspect of our being is the spirit, which one cannnot see with the naked eye.

Now I wonder how you can in one breath say:

The old saints that went to heaven with Jesus went bodily too. Graves had to open for them. A spirit does not need grave or door to open.
only to quote the actual bible verse which did not say that those who resurrected physically went to heaven. The bible said they appeared unto many.They were spirit beings with spiritual bodies. The bible did not tell us how they disappeared.


Matthew 27:52-53
    And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

God always take people bodily, The next event is the rapture , we shall go bodily too.

1 Thes. 4:17
    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The rapture , though a popular concept for christians is not bibilical. It is a misreading of the scripture.  Reference of clouds throughout scripture is used to depict the glory of God. It does not mean  that he will come from the sky. Caught up together in the clouds is to be in one spiritual accord with Christ. How do you get caught up with him? It is by practising his injuctions; Love, faith, all good virtues.Not only professing them but practising them.

Where is the air? I think the air is the earth, not the hades, which is below the earth. That is why it concludes by saying that "so shall we be with the Lord ". In other words we will be with the Lord forever on earth.

Think about it carefully. God created you on earth. Will he in his 2nd coming take you to the sky? What's the point in him coming to the earth plane? What is the point of isaiah 9: 6 and Rev 12:5? Again the beatitudes in mathew already spells out the fate of the good guys- They will rule and reign with him on Earth!

Marlbron:

The rapture , though a popular concept for christians is not bibilical. It is a misreading of the scripture. Reference of clouds throughout scripture is used to depict the glory of God. It does not mean that he will come from the sky. Caught up together in the clouds is to be in one spiritual accord with Christ. How do you get caught up with him? It is by practising his injuctions; Love, faith, all good virtues.Not only professing them but practising them.

Where is the air? I think the air is the earth, not the hades, which is below the earth. That is why it concludes by saying that "so shall we be with the Lord ". In other words we will be with the Lord forever on earth.

Think about it carefully. God created you on earth. Will he in his 2nd coming take you to the sky? What's the point in him coming to the earth plane? What is the point of isaiah 9: 6 and Rev 12:5? Again the beatitudes in mathew already spells out the fate of the good guys- They will rule and reign with him on Earth!

Avoid reading your own meaning to scriptures. If the bible says we shall meet him in the air , dont say it is earth.
Of course we will live on earth forever, but you must understand that after rapture, we will be in heaven for a period of 7years while the nation of Israel and those on the earth go through the tribulation under the regime of the antichrist.At the end of the 7 years We will come down with christ to fight for israel when they finally acknowledge him as king in the battle of armageddon. Satan will then be arrested and bound for a thousand years. This is called the milleniial reign. We will reign with christ over nations on earth for a thousand years. Then after that satan will be released from the bottomess pit for a season. he will go and decieve many again. This will lead to the final battle between good and evil ,the battle of Gog and Magog. Evil will finally be defeated. Then there will be the white throne judgement. The wicked will be cast to lake of fire. death and hell will be cast to lake of fire also.

It is after all this that God will make a new earth where we will live forever, God himself will come down to the new earth to stay forever. This old heaven and earth will pass away.