701ecilana:


Deut 22:28 is a case of rape sir.
The Op says, a pregnant girl comes up to be wedded and not a man who rapes a girl and decides to marry her afterwards. As in the case of Scheme and Dina the daughter of Jacob.

Am totally against formication and you guys are trying to twists scriptures to justify it.

Wow! So Exodus 22:16 is rape as well right? Pls be truthful and fair to us, non has justified fornication yet.

Note that the acts of the sons of Jacob was not encouraged by scripture, as a matter of fact, they acted deceitfully and Jacob did not approve of it. God knew about this incident before the instructions of Deut.22:28, don't you think so? It's difficult to imagine that your quarrel is with the female while the man goes Scot free. You will agree that they marry in the case of rape, where a man committed both fornication and rape against the will of a woman, but you will not agree they marry in the other circumstance, because the woman gave her consent to fornication. I do wonder indeed if am reading from a pharisee of Jesus's time.

701ecilana:

You Like banter too much. What is your own take?

Is the bold really for me?

The Church teaches her children to flee all forms of iniquities, but rather walk in the light of Christ 1Jn.1:7. However the Church does not deceive herself that her children will never fall in one way or the other, and at one time or the other...If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us... That's why the church teaches that when you fall, you shouldn't pretend as if you did not sin, rather "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.… 1Jn.1:8-9.

With these in mind,In the Catholic Church, when two people decide to stop committing fornication between them, the church welcomes them. (Note that by the very act of fornication the couple separate themselves from God and from the community)The church then guides them through the process of reconciliation with God, this may include counseling, contrition and confession. It doesn't matter if the lady is pregnant or not, for pregnancy in itself is not a sin, as children are a gift from God Psalm 127:3. When these two get married, they never commit fornication again between them. Isn't that what Christ wants? The earlier the church reconcile them to Christ; and removes occasion of same sin from them, the better.

The church draws no power anywhere from scripture or oral tradition to deny them marriage on the basis of fornication. It amusing when we run to our traditional belief or acts to justify a christian position. Like when you say that your father will not give you out in marriage pregnant, to same man who impregnated you. Will he give you out in that condition to another man? Anyway, what if the father of those that approached the church gave them out freely, will it make a difference to you? Frankly speaking, I agree with most things TheUmbra has posted in this thread, I shake my head at the hypocrisy being propagated by those against his post. How does the church determine a "fornicator", and why is it when the "fornicators" wants to stop and approaches the church for marriage that the church is to turn her back on them, rather than lead him to reconciliation. Even then, why is the punishment only for those who most likely didn't add the sin of using contraception, nor the sin of abortion.

Syncan:


Is the bold really for me?

The Church teaches her children to flee all forms of iniquities, but rather walk in the light of Christ 1Jn.1:7. However the Church does not deceive herself that her children will never fall in one way or the other, and at one time or the other...If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us... That's why the church teaches that when you fall, you shouldn't pretend as if you did not sin, rather "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.… 1Jn.1:8-9.

With these in mind,In the Catholic Church, when two people decide to stop committing fornication between them, the church welcomes them. (Note that by the very act of fornication the couple separate themselves from God and from the community)The church then guides them through the process of reconciliation with God, this may include counseling, contrition and confession. It doesn't matter if the lady is pregnant or not, for pregnancy in itself is not a sin, as children are a gift from God Psalm 127:3. When these two get married, they never commit fornication again between them. Isn't that what Christ wants? The earlier the church reconcile them to Christ; and removes occasion of same sin from them, the better.

The church draws no power anywhere from scripture or oral tradition to deny them marriage on the basis of fornication. It amusing when we run to our traditional belief or acts to justify a christian position. Like when you say that your father will not give you out in marriage pregnant, to same man who impregnated you. Will he give you out in that condition to another man? Anyway, what if the father of those that approached the church gave them out freely, will it make a difference to you? Frankly speaking, I agree with most things TheUmbra has posted in this thread, I shake my head at the hypocrisy being propagated by those against his post. How does the church determine a "fornicator", and why is it when the "fornicators" wants to stop and approaches the church for marriage that the church is to turn her back on them, rather than lead him to reconciliation. Even then, why is the punishment only for those who most likely didn't add the sin of using contraception, nor the sin of abortion.

I drop it here.

Syncan:


Wow! So Exodus 22:16 is rape as well right? Pls be truthful and fair to us, non has justified fornication yet.

Note that the acts of the sons of Jacob was not encouraged by scripture, as a matter of fact, they acted deceitfully and Jacob did not approve of it. God knew about this incident before the instructions of Deut.22:28, don't you think so? It's difficult to imagine that your quarrel is with the female while the man goes Scot free. You will agree that they marry in the case of rape, where a man committed both fornication and rape against the will of a woman, but you will not agree they marry in the other circumstance, because the woman gave her consent to fornication. I do wonder indeed if am reading from a pharisee of Jesus's time.

Whatever you say.

clefstone:
Are u implying that once a person becomes 'born again' the grace of God's mercy upon them ceases that they cannot be forgiven when they sin?

How can God's grace cease when one becomes born again? Having a New spirit which comes from the new birth bestows God's grace on you.
I didn't say they won't be forgiven, read the post again. We sin everyday and ask for forgiveness, what am against is being brazen about it.

Let's note that God is the God of knowledge and by him all actions are weighed. Falling into sin is different from living in sin.

from my POV, Church marriage is for the blessings. the reason most churches wouldn't join you together when you are pregnant is simply because the bed is defiled

clefstone:
why are u bringing your local tradition into this. We are talking Christianity u r talking native culture. I have also observed that you keep trying to justify yourself and your Church. Because u have lost your virginity you conveniently created Analice's law that states that you can do church wedding only if you days of fornication preceeds your day of being born again. Clap for yourself. I put it to you that you are no different from a repentant pregnant single woman.

And i said, am not better than any. Why i mentioned myself is because he said, if pregnant ladies are denied marriage then every woman who has lost her virginty shdnt be wed too, then, i brought in my angle as a case study who have lost it before coming to Christ. So because am no more a Virgin even when i have repented, i shouldn't be wedded? This is my point, not because am better than anyone.

I also brought my tradition in to let you know that, even traditionally, sex outside marriage is frowned at.

Well, you guys shd go on encouraging fornication, when we meet the Lord, it shall be made clea lr which is right or wrong.

701ecilana:

How can God's grace cease when one becomes born again? Having a New spirit which comes from the new birth bestows God's grace on you.
I didn't say they won't be forgiven, read the post again. We sin everyday and ask for forgiveness, what am against is being brazen about it.

Let's note that God is the God of knowledge and by him all actions are weighed. Falling into sin is different from living in sin.

so in your imagination all unmarried christians that get pregnant are 'living in d sin of fornication' and they are happy that they committed fornication. That God has saved u from the sin of fornication doesn't mean others don't struggle with it. Open ur mind to the truth, read the gospel(by gospel I mean Matthew to John), understand Jesus and his teachings. I'm not saying the other books of the Bible are not inspired, but the message of Christ is redeeming. Also, I believe the other books of the Bible are to be understood in the context of the Gospel.

The sermon on the mount(Matt 5) is a good place to start. When I read Matt 5, I got a deep understanding of Christ. I understand u attend Living Faith, ryt?

clefstone:
who is justifying fornication here? My dear you are no better that the Pharisees of old. If you lived in Jesus' time you would have accused Jesus of justifying adultery when he refused to condemn the woman caught in adultery

If you think calling me a Pharisee will send me off, you are wrong. Jesus never justified adultery, he forgave the culprit, there's a difference.
I have not said the pregnant woman should be killed or ostracized, i said formication is a sin and no matter how hard you try to justify it, it will be what it is, a sin.

Jesus identified adultery as a sin, hence; he said to the woman, 'Go and sin no more'. He didn't just dismiss her as if she did nothing warranting her being stoned. Jesus is out for forgiveness. But after you are forgiven, go and sin no more.

TheUmbra:


And don't you know that pregnancy can take place within a day after sex or after fornication?

It actually takes place in a minute or second sef, not a whole day.

clefstone:
so in your imagination all unmarried christians that get pregnant are 'living in d sin of fornication' and they are happy that they committed fornication. That God has saved u from the sin of fornication doesn't mean others don't struggle with it. Open ur mind to the truth, read the gospel(by gospel I mean Matthew to John), understand Jesus and his teachings. I'm not saying the other books of the Bible are not inspired, but the message of Christ is redeeming. Also, I believe the other books of the Bible are to be understood in the context of the Gospel.

The sermon on the mount(Matt 5) is a good place to start. When I read Matt 5, I got a deep understanding of Christ. I understand u attend Living Faith, ryt?

I think there's a misunderstanding here. Am not talking about any particular person here, am talking about the act. Christians are battling with all manner of things, I have my own battles too, but that doesn't say it's right that am still falling and rising. Grace from the Holy Spirit is given, but are we making use of it or depending on ourselves to overcome these battles?

My mind is open and i know that they are more baby Christians than are matured ones.

My dear i understand Jesus well. Moses says if you commit fornication or adultery and be caught, then you face the law, Jesus says, if you look and lust you have committed the sin, so shd face the judgment. Which is harder? Jesus has made us the watchdogs of our own minds that's why we shd depend on the Holy Spirit to help us over come sin.

In the dispensation of the law, you can commit and hide and go free, but now, if you as much as look to lust, you stand to be condemned like he who did it.
What are you saying?

701ecilana:

And i said, am not better than any. Why i mentioned myself is because he said, if pregnant ladies are denied marriage then every woman who has lost her virginty shdnt be wed too, then, i brought in my angle as a case study who have lost it before coming to Christ. So because am no more a Virgin even when i have repented, i shouldn't be wedded? This is my point, not because am better than anyone.

I also brought my tradition in to let you know that, even traditionally, sex outside marriage is frowned at.

Well, you guys shd go on encouraging fornication, when we meet the Lord, it shall be made clea lr which is right or wrong.

point out one instance, just one here where anybody has encouraged fornication. please I will be glad if u do

May God richly bless you for this comment

Libo45:
Must the wedding be done in a church? If it's against their laws, honor their laws and jejely go to a court for statutory marriage, simple. We too like stress as Nigerians

clefstone:
point out one instance, just one here where anybody has encouraged fornication. please I will be glad if u do

Am tired of this.

TheUmbra:


It's not difficult to see the link between my story and a woman denied the right to a church wedding because she's pregnant. Maybe prophet Nathan's narrative to king David may come in aid for you.

I don't see how the story of David support your point. It in fact goes against it. God exacted punishment to David for what he did, even killing the son. That shows that God was never in support of such atrocity. It was an abomination.

Asking me where the HOLY SPIRIT said what I claimed is self-deriding.

You may want to turn a blind eye to my scripture submission of Exodus 22 : 16. Where GOD said anyone caught in fornication where the lady isn't married or engaged should be married. This is pivotal to my stance that turning people away from church wedding because the Woman is pregnant is Phareesm and lacking in scriptural backing.

This is about seduction. It isn't about pregnancy, and secondly, any who committed that offence is giving a punishment of marrying that woman till his death. No room for divorce. This solemnization is important cos according to the law, no one will ever marry her. God was not endorsing the habit.

Church wedding as we do it today was not available then, if it was, we know that this couple won't be allowed to be wedded in the temple. For example Jewish wedding procedure includes the man coming to the home of the bride, taking her home, and sleeping with her with a white cloth under. This was to get the blood as evidence of her virginity. This white sheet is given to the father of the bride. Do you think the wedding of this couple will take this process? Again God did not provide guidelines for wedding in a church/temple.

There're plenty of churches out there that do demand pregnancy test before approval of the church wedding. And this practice is completely beyond their pastoral jurisdiction.

I don't see why such demand is important scripturally. And I still don't know why a couple would be tensed if a church makes such demands. Should your mate see your unclothedness before marriage? If they demand that you do such test, for the sake of peace, do it. Unless you have something you are hiding. However, the pastors shouldn't be making such demands as if they are doubting the motives of their members. Questioning them on how chaste the courtship was should be enough. God sees in secret and must judge fornicators, whether the church sees it or not. 1cor 6:9

You speak with both sides of your mouth acknowledging church wedding is man-made and has no scriptural backing and then alluding that a pastor/priest can disqualify two single people from getting a church wedding.

Gods will for His servants is for them to abstain from fornication (1thes 4:3), people who does that won't inherit Gods kingdom (1cor 6:9). 1cor 5:7 says

"7 Clear away the old leaven so that you may be a new batch, inasmuch as you are free from ferment. For, indeed, Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed".

Now you are not even clearing them away, you are endorsing fornication in front of all. A minister may conclude that his conscience cannot allow him to unite those two in a church building. Since they started out in a serious sin against God.

That you cannot get a church wedding does not mean you cannot wed. You can go to a court and have the wedding. Why bring a bad name to the church?

There's everything wrong when a church presupposes that the pastor/priest has the power to join a man and a woman as husband and wife;

If the law gives the pastor the power as an officiating minister, he has the power to join the man and the woman. If you want a legal wedding, the land in which you live in has laws on how to solemnise couples.

There is also a staturory marriage. In that regard, a pastor has no right to marry the two. He cannot even revoke it. Why will a couple insist on going to the church and not respect there procedures?

There's everything's wrong when a pastor / priest hijacks the father's role and plays the role of the parents. That's not the principle of the GOOD SHEPHERD WHO was implored by a man to compel his brother to divide their [father's ] inheritance with him. JESUS replied "Friend, who made me a judge over you to decide such things as that?" (Luke 12: 13-14)

No man was called of GOD to go ye into the world and join people in matrimony.

There's everything wrong, when a church takes a sanctimonious leap of arrogance or pastoral overreach asking people for pregnancy test. It was never GOD's intention for priests to join people in marriage, not even in the era when priests double as communal leaders. It was the GOD-given right of the bride's father to join his daughter to another man in marriage. A preist can then "BLESS" the union.

I think I ve answered this. If you go to the church for your wedding, who are you blaming? When you can go to court and be wedded

Oh! Wonderful! Glorious! Behold 1 cor 5: 11 -12 indeed! You forgot the same Paul wrote 2 Cor 2: 5-8

But let's re-visit your 1cor 5: 11-12 squarely! Paul proposes disassociation from those who commit sexual sin, greed, idolaters, abusiveness, cheats, and drunks. Not just a poor pregnant unmarried woman. So my dear brother, you must lead us all out of the church including that unmarried pregnant woman.
You can't tell anyone that you have no cheated or abuse someone. So you must as well, like the rest of us be kicked out of the church, stigmatised, and excommunicated. It mustn't be restricted to just the poor unmarried pregnant woman.

And your last sentence which seemed to appraise government interference in church matters is a big shame.

I don't know the scenario you paint, are you saying an unmarried woman, who is pregnant, who wants to be married by another man who didn't impregnate her or what?

If I committed such offence and chose not to repent, I deserve to be kicked out. What's wrong with that?

2. Church wedding isn't compulsory for one to be married. That prosedure is man made often instituted to give the couple a spiritual advice as to marriage. Joining of two persons as husband and wife follows the custom of the land the xten finds himself. If the govt has a legal way you are deemed to have been married, a xten follows such laws. In Nigeria, a minister of the church can rightly act as an officiating minister to bind the two. Of course, some documents would be signed. God didn't give any procedure for xten wedding. His word keeps it open for the custom of the land to be followed in as much as it doesn't violate His laws. ROM 13. Luke 2:1-3)

It's obvious we are still very confused in Christianity

Keep kwayet. Is fornication Christian like

JMAN05:


God of mercy doesn't mean one should love what is bad. (Ps 97:10)



I personally have not considered it this way before, ie, the couple A scenario. It is true that such can occur. But while that of B will receive immediate judgment, that of A will still come later in a true xten church. (1Tim 5:24)

If after some years, it later become know that they engaged in sex and covered it, among JW, they would be disfellowshiped as having played false to the spirit. (Acts 5:4-6) no need to water down Gods word and condone abomination just to play good guy.



Whatever the result of not wedding a pregnant woman in the church should not be traced to the church, but to the couples who caused their ordeal. What you sow, you reap. In the meantime, they can go for statutory marriage. For a true church, unless they are repentant, they would be disfellowshiped.



God willnjidge those outside the church, but those on the inside can rightly be judged.

1cor 5:12-13

12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves

Den why did Jesus die on d cross for us? U don't really know true chrietianisty my brother.

JMAN05:


I don't see how the story of David support your point. It in fact goes against it. God exacted punishment to David for what he did, even killing the son. That shows that God was never in support of such atrocity. It was an abomination.



This is about seduction. It isn't about pregnancy, and secondly, any who committed that offence is giving a punishment of marrying that woman till his death. No room for divorce. This solemnization is important cos according to the law, no one will ever marry her. God was not endorsing the habit.

Church wedding as we do it today was not available then, if it was, we know that this couple won't be allowed to be wedded in the temple. For example Jewish wedding procedure includes the man coming to the home of the bride, taking her home, and sleeping with her with a white cloth under. This was to get the blood as evidence of her virginity. This white sheet is given to the father of the bride. Do you think the wedding of this couple will take this process? Again God did not provide guidelines for wedding in a church/temple.




I don't see why such demand is important scripturally. And I still don't know why a couple would be tensed if a church makes such demands. Should your mate see your unclothedness before marriage? If they demand that you do such test, for the sake of peace, do it. Unless you have something you are hiding. However, the pastors shouldn't be making such demands as if they are doubting the motives of their members. Questioning them on how chaste the courtship was should be enough. God sees in secret and must judge fornicators, whether the church sees it or not. 1cor 6:9



Gods will for His servants is for them to abstain from fornication (1thes 4:3), people who does that won't inherit Gods kingdom (1cor 6:9). 1cor 5:7 says

"7 Clear away the old leaven so that you may be a new batch, inasmuch as you are free from ferment. For, indeed, Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed".

Now you are not even clearing them away, you are endorsing fornication in front of all. A minister may conclude that his conscience cannot allow him to unite those two in a church building. Since they started out in a serious sin against God.

That you cannot get a church wedding does not mean you cannot wed. You can go to a court and have the wedding. Why bring a bad name to the church?



If the law gives the pastor the power as an officiating minister, he has the power to join the man and the woman. If you want a legal wedding, the land in which you live in has laws on how to solemnise couples.

There is also a staturory marriage. In that regard, a pastor has no right to marry the two. He cannot even revoke it. Why will a couple insist on going to the church and not respect there procedures?



I think I ve answered this. If you go to the church for your wedding, who are you blaming? When you can go to court and be wedded



I don't know the scenario you paint, are you saying an unmarried woman, who is pregnant, who wants to be married by another man who didn't impregnate her or what?

If I committed such offence and chose not to repent, I deserve to be kicked out. What's wrong with that?

2. Church wedding isn't compulsory for one to be married. That prosedure is man made often instituted to give the couple a spiritual advice as to marriage. Joining of two persons as husband and wife follows the custom of the land the xten finds himself. If the govt has a legal way you are deemed to have been married, a xten follows such laws. In Nigeria, a minister of the church can rightly act as an officiating minister to bind the two. Of course, some documents would be signed. God didn't give any procedure for xten wedding. His word keeps it open for the custom of the land to be followed in as much as it doesn't violate His laws. ROM 13. Luke 2:1-3)

It doctorines are wrong , stop misleasding people. All our sins are forgiven saith d Lord. No sin holds us back to anything.

analice107:

Hahahahahahahahaha.
I smell Catholic. If you don't commit the sin of fornication, how will you get pregnant?

I was waiting for you to bring up scriptures to back up your OP.

So those that go ahead to do abortion just for the church they attend to join them together don't commit the sin of fornication right

Not supporting fornication but depriving intending couples wedding in church on pregnancy ish isn't biblical.

They are mere GO's doctrines and assertions.

clefstone:
what about those that see church wedding as sacrosanct?

They have no business getting pregnant in the first place,
while I am not a church advocate, I also don't support hypocrites.

But if a politician who is a renowned looter invites them to an occasion, they will turn up in large numbers to honour the occasion.

Chai, Nigerians with their religious hypocrisy!

It is well.

U are right bro. I use to fight against that, but on the second note, I relax my self becos it is the church rule not bible. If the church say they don't want just try and keep to it. Or u look for any church who do not see anything wrong about that. At least the Catholic have a different view about it. U can go there they welcoming.

clefstone:
It is becoming a trend in many churches to refuse marriage to intending couples on account of pregnancy. It has become a common practice to undertake a pregnancy test before joining a couple in most of these churches. Those couple whose result come out as positive are then deprived from getting wedded. This practice is ungodly, unbiblical, unchristian and dangerous. I will highlight my points in the following paragraphs

The nature of God and the nature of man are distinct. One of God's nature is that of mercy, hence we frequently say GOD IS MERCIFUL. Now, a couple that get's pregnant before marriage have obviously committed the sin of fornication. However, if they have asked for forgiveness from God, who is merciful, who is man to deny them the privilege of a Christian marriage

THE SIN IS FORNICATION, NOT PREGNANCY. Now, let us look at it this way, couple A and couple B r seeking to get married. pregnancy test is done. couple A's result comes out as negative while couple B's comes out as positive. couple B is denied marriage while couple A is given the nod. Now, assuming that couple A has engaged in sex, it means that couple B is denied marriage, not because they committed fornication, but because they got pregnant. This leads to the question, is the sin pregnancy or the fornication that led to the pregnancy. Since the obvious answer is that the fornication is the sin, couples A and B ought to be disqualified. If this is done, I wonder how many couples will qualify for marriage. Reminds me of the psalmist who wrote, 'if you O Lord will mark our guilt, who will stand'. In this case, if you O lord will mark our sin, who will qualify for marriage.


THE DANGERS OF ABORTION.
Abortion is a grave sin synonymous with murder. The bible says 'thou shall not kill'. In the new testament, Christ said, 'woe unto those that will cause one of this little ones to sin. it will be better for a mill stone to be tied around his neck while he is cast to the sea'.
A direct result of insisting on a negative pregnancy test before marriage is that many young couples, for shame of being exposed and denied 'church wedding' abort their prenancies and wait for their results to come out as negative before presenting themselves for marriage. Some parents even take their children to abortion clinics just because of the stigma and shame. Until the emphasis is shifted from discouraging prenancy to discouraging premarital sex, such premeditated murder of unborn children will continue.

In summary, marriage is a union between a man and a woman, ordained by God. The same God is merciful and admonishes us not to judge. As christians we should therefore desist from using man's fallen nature to reason things of God such as marriage

It seems u are misinformed as to the reason why a pregnant woman isn't allowed to take the vows. Marriage is between two(2) people not three(3), the child is a separate being even though he/she is still in d womb. It's an aberration to wed a pregnant woman, if they practice it in ur church, tell them to stop. Its not a matter of morals as u are opining.

Only non Christians will debate this topic.

Is it compulsory to wed in a church?

Why not just go and pay her bride price?

So the church should welcome every pregnant woman to wear white so it will become a norm and fornication will continue?

Anyone in church living in fornication and has refused to repent is not a Christian.

TheUmbra:


I'll like to give you a little illustration which follows thus:

A man once lived in a little Christian community. Most people living in that community were mostly decent and GODly people who practice their Christian faith with all sincerity as far as their understanding leads them.

One day, the man became hungry and stole his neighbour's goat and ate it. He was caught and reported to the king who doubles as the town's priest.

The man pleaded and offered to repay the stolen goat but the king refused and banished him for bringing such shame and abominable act of stealing in a GODly community. The man was denied the opportunity to right his wrong.

My point is this; a man who brings a lady he impregnated to church in order to make her his wife does well. He has taken the first step of repentance, to right his wrong and give the woman a befitting place in his life. A church denying him this opportunity of righting his wrong does not act in the wisdom of the HOLY SPIRIT, but from the legalistic yoke of a Pharisee.

That was not the principle of CHRIST and the adulterous woman in John 8. Slut-shaming a woman by denying her the opportunity to a church wedding because she's pregnant as a result of fornication has no scriptural base. It spurned from man's self-righteous act and extra-scriptural misapplication.

It is a different matter when a Christian brother and sister are caught in fornication and the church decides to discipline them.

And what gives a church the right to ask intending couples to do a compulsory pregnancy test? What sheer arrogance and pastoral overreach! Do they go over the board making sure every money donated in their offertory coffers is untainted? Bloody 21st century Pharisees!

There was never a direct or implied command from GOD to any priest or pastor to join any couple in matrimony. And none of the patriarch in scripture ever did. Not Moses, not CHRIST nor any of HIS disciples.

There's no scriptural reference from where a priest or pastor can draw his authority to declare couple husband and wife. Church marriage was man's creation.

But it's a good thing if only priests and pastors would stop hijacking the roles of parents and act humbly by blessing the union after obtaining the consent of the couple and of their parents.

I so much love this ur analysis. Honestly speaking everything u've said is so on point and only those that have been beclouded with human doctrines will argue the above. I have always encouraged people on the need to serve God with understanding.

clefstone:
It is becoming a trend in many churches to refuse marriage to intending couples on account of pregnancy. It has become a common practice to undertake a pregnancy test before joining a couple in most of these churches. Those couple whose result come out as positive are then deprived from getting wedded. This practice is ungodly, unbiblical, unchristian and dangerous. I will highlight my points in the following paragraphs

The nature of God and the nature of man are distinct. One of God's nature is that of mercy, hence we frequently say GOD IS MERCIFUL. Now, a couple that get's pregnant before marriage have obviously committed the sin of fornication. However, if they have asked for forgiveness from God, who is merciful, who is man to deny them the privilege of a Christian marriage

THE SIN IS FORNICATION, NOT PREGNANCY. Now, let us look at it this way, couple A and couple B r seeking to get married. pregnancy test is done. couple A's result comes out as negative while couple B's comes out as positive. couple B is denied marriage while couple A is given the nod. Now, assuming that couple A has engaged in sex, it means that couple B is denied marriage, not because they committed fornication, but because they got pregnant. This leads to the question, is the sin pregnancy or the fornication that led to the pregnancy. Since the obvious answer is that the fornication is the sin, couples A and B ought to be disqualified. If this is done, I wonder how many couples will qualify for marriage. Reminds me of the psalmist who wrote, 'if you O Lord will mark our guilt, who will stand'. In this case, if you O lord will mark our sin, who will qualify for marriage.


THE DANGERS OF ABORTION.
Abortion is a grave sin synonymous with murder. The bible says 'thou shall not kill'. In the new testament, Christ said, 'woe unto those that will cause one of this little ones to sin. it will be better for a mill stone to be tied around his neck while he is cast to the sea'.
A direct result of insisting on a negative pregnancy test before marriage is that many young couples, for shame of being exposed and denied 'church wedding' abort their prenancies and wait for their results to come out as negative before presenting themselves for marriage. Some parents even take their children to abortion clinics just because of the stigma and shame. Until the emphasis is shifted from discouraging prenancy to discouraging premarital sex, such premeditated murder of unborn children will continue.

In summary, marriage is a union between a man and a woman, ordained by God. The same God is merciful and admonishes us not to judge. As christians we should therefore desist from using man's fallen nature to reason things of God such as marriage

You lack the pedigree to opine on a subject you are not conversant with.
Because, you will end up deceiving many and causing many to SIN, by feeling okay with premarital sex.

Desist from talking about what you know nothing about, especially when you are not a follower of Christ Jesus.

Once a man has paid the bride price on a woman, there is legal marriage. The Church has no business conducting a wedding. The wedding that the Lord Jesus attended was a traditional wedding. Is there any record of any other wedding in the NT? No because it is a private family thing. I will conduct a Church blessing in fifteen minutes, because it is meant to be an announcement.

The Church wedding thing is a hustle designed to control and make money.

I knew a young man who was hustling and had made some money so he decided to marry his long time girlfriend then. He went to her folks and carried out all customary rites and they were married and 2 years later she got pregnant. He then decided to do their white wedding and the church refused saying "they had been living in Sin". Like seriously!! They were forced to make confessions and atonement and then they did "marriage blessing" for them not the normal white wedding.

So I say it's wrong and unbiblical.

clefstone:
It is becoming a trend in many churches to refuse marriage to intending couples on account of pregnancy. It has become a common practice to undertake a pregnancy test before joining a couple in most of these churches. Those couple whose result come out as positive are then deprived from getting wedded. This practice is ungodly, unbiblical, unchristian and dangerous. I will highlight my points in the following paragraphs

U have an opinion on the issue, but not a correct one dear.
I was waiting to see the scriptural reference to back up this writeup
please note that the standard of God has not changed o

analice107:

Hahahahahahahahaha.
I smell Catholic. If you don't commit the sin of fornication, how will you get pregnant?

I was waiting for you to bring up scriptures to back up your OP.

What if they make us of pills not to get pregnant or something else...how do you know?? The OP is right to me..judge not!!

JMAN05:


I don't see how the story of David support you point. It in fact goes against it. God exacted punishment to David for what he did, even killing the son. That shows that God was never in support of such atrocity. It was an abomination.

I was talking about prophet "Nathan's narrative" Not David's action, by the way which was ADULTERY AND MURDER and not fornication. You mustn't argue for the love of argument.

Prophet Nathan gave King David a narrative (story) of a poor man with just one lamb versus a rich man with many lambs. That was what inspired my own story. Understanding is key to any debate.

JMAN05:

This is about seduction.

Please don't make me question your mental strength and intellectual integrity. Exodus 22 : 16 is about SEX BETWEEN UNMARRIED PEOPLE

JMAN05:

It isn't about pregnancy, and secondly, any who committed that offence is giving a punishment of marrying that woman till his death. No room for divorce. This solemnization is important cos according to the law, no one will ever marry her. God was not endorsing the habit.

You have yet again failed to pilot your reasoning into the realms of GOD's wisdom for compelling two unmarried fornicators who aren't engaged to marry. GOD was trying to teach HIS people that you must not commit the sin of fornication. If you do, you must marry her. Not banished from the gathering of HIS people, not cut from among HIS people, as you sanctimoniously opine.

JMAN05:

Church wedding as we do it today was not available then, if it was, we know that this couple won't be allowed to be wedded in the temple.

The fact that GOD made a provision for them to be married and HE recognised their marriage, and that HE never ordained marriage, no matter how holy the couple may be to be stagged in the temple throws your fallacy out the window of common sense.

JMAN05:

For example Jewish wedding procedure includes the man coming to the home of the bride, taking her home, and sleeping with her with a white cloth under. This was to get the blood as evidence of her virginity. This white sheet is given to the father of the bride. Do you think the wedding of this couple will take this process? Again God did not provide guidelines for wedding in a church/temple.

When you run out of point, it is far more honourable to stop typing and save yourself unnecessary embarrassment. How does this fit into GOD's word in Exodus 22 : 16. How does this fit into the lives of Mary and Joseph? That tradition is expected of maidens who claimed to be virgins as they go into matrimony. And it's subject to her would-be husband's discretion whether to declare her a virgin or not.

JMAN05:


I don't see why such demand is important scripturally. And I still don't know why a couple would be tensed if a church makes such demands. Should your mate see your unclothedness before marriage? If they demand that you do such test, for the sake of peace, do it. Unless you have something you are hiding. However, the pastors shouldn't be making such demands as if they are doubting the motives of their members. Questioning them on how chaste the courtship was should be enough. God sees in secret and must judge fornicators, whether the church sees it or not. 1cor 6:9

Double speech!

Just agree that churches and pastors requiring pregnancy test before conducting marriage in their churches missed the purpose of their calling.

JMAN05:


Gods will for His servants is for them to abstain from fornication (1thes 4:3), people who does that won't inherit Gods kingdom (1cor 6:9). 1cor 5:7 says

Only the unrepentant sinner will not inherit GOD's Kingdom. For if we confess our sins to HIM , HE is faithful and just to forgive us and cleans of from all our iniquities. (1 john 1:9)

JMAN05:


"7 Clear away the old leaven so that you may be a new batch, inasmuch as you are free from ferment. For, indeed, Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed".

Now you are not even clearing them away, you are endorsing fornication in front of all. A minister may conclude that his conscience cannot allow him to unite those two in a church building. Since they started out in a serious sin against God.

You must no abuse scripture and qoute it to accommodate your sanctimonious stance. You're quoting 1 Cor 5 where a whole church was proud of a member who was sleeping with his father's wife. A case of incest and Adultery. The "old laven of malice and wickedness". It was a call for repentance, and not just for the immoral incestuous man but for the whole church.

JMAN05:

That you cannot get a church wedding does not mean you cannot wed. You can go to a court and have the wedding. Why bring a bad name to the church?

Indeed! You are not a sinner. Since the day you surrendered to JESUS, you have lived every day of every minute and of every second, down to this very day in complete holiness! You stink of hypocrisy, brother!

JMAN05:

If the law gives the pastor the power as an officiating minister, he has the power to join the man and the woman. If you want a legal wedding, the land in which you live in has laws on how to solemnise couples.

There's no law of GOD that gives a pastor or priest to officiate a marital bonding of a man and a woman.

JMAN05:

There is also a staturory marriage. In that regard, a pastor has no right to marry the two. He cannot even revoke it. Why will a couple insist on going to the church and not respect there procedures?

Whatever kind of marriage one chooses as his or her marital preference, a pastor has no powers to affirm or revoke. The bride price doesn't belong to him, neither nor his church.

JMAN05:


I think I ve answered this. If you go to the church for your wedding, who are you blaming? When you can go to court and be wedded

That people where deceived into thinking it is the priest/pastor who actually confirms a man and woman husband and wife doesn't mean the pastor or priest can employ extra-scriptural commands on the people because they elected to do a church wedding. The Pharisees who were priests and leaders suffered severe criticism from CHRIST when they commanded the people to observe certain seemingly pious act that had no scriptural support.



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JMAN05:

I don't know the scenario you paint, are you saying an unmarried woman, who is pregnant, who wants to be married by another man who didn't impregnate her or what?

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JMAN05:


If I committed such offence and chose not to repent, I deserve to be kicked out. What's wrong with that?

You deceive yourself. You should have said "if every Christian that sins, including you and the pregnant unmarried woman refuse to repent then we should be kicked out of church.

As you granted yourself the chance of repentance, so does the unmarried pregnant woman deserves a chance of repentance. Not outright banishment or rejection as you suggest.

Now you can see how your hypocrisy stinks to the high heavens?

JMAN05:

2. Church wedding isn't compulsory for one to be married.

You mustn't continue in this shameless deceit. We all know that among many churches and Christian gatherings, once a member isn't wedded in a church, they're considered not really married by the church.

JMAN05:

That prosedure is man made often instituted to give the couple a spiritual advice as to marriage.

Spiritual advice can be given outside church wedding.

JMAN05:


Joining of two persons as husband and wife follows the custom of the land the xten finds himself.

Not quite. A Christian can object to certain cultural practices that runs against his faith. He normally dialogues with the bride's father on such conflict of interests.

JMAN05:

If the govt has a legal way you are deemed to have been married, a xten follows such laws. In Nigeria, a minister of the church can rightly act as an officiating minister to bind the two. Of course, some documents would be signed. God didn't give any procedure for xten wedding. His word keeps it open for the custom of the land to be followed in as much as it doesn't violate His laws. ROM 13. Luke 2:1-3)

How shamelessly pathetic of you! You're trying to endorse a secular government interference in church spiritual procedures.

"God didn't give any procedure for xten wedding"

GOD has made it clear in several scriptural passages that a bride price be paid and the father of the bride gives his daughter out in marriage.

Never was a priest or pastor called into the procedure.

I think you're a willful liar who subvert scriptures to suit his own self-serving, hypocritical posture.

I'm done with you.