Nobody predicated salvation on a doctrine of the Trinity (other than DeepSight who had tried to dribble that non-starter into the thread and hang it upon my neck). That aside, there's no problem in withdrawing when you did, and I wouldn't suppose that you stayed because you wanted to argue Trinity one way or another as the foundation of salvation.

viaro: ^^ I understand, and thank goodness my reply didn't come across muddled for you.

Here is something on that same question about "begotten" that I thought the deniers of Christ's Deity might consider - a few questions which I posted in another thread:

[list](a)     what is the meaning of "only begotten" in reference to Jesus Christ?

(b)     what is the meaning of "firstbegotten" in reference to Jesus Christ?

(c)     do you find anyone else described as "only begotten" in the same way as Jesus is?

(d)    do the terms "only begotten" and "firstbegotten" mean the same things to you?

(e)    when was Jesus Christ called "the only begotten" - before or after His resurrection?[/list]

Some have assumed that the term "begotten" is indicative of Christ having been "created" by God. Regardless the explanations that have been proffered, the same arguments are still advanced by the same folks. This time around, perhaps it is best to now ask them to EXPLAIN and RELATE how that affects the essence of Christ - just as you proposed. The easiest thing under the sun to do is deny and deny and keep denying a simple fact, regardless how many times answers have been proffered. So, here is a point at which we should directly ask these deniers to explicate the very term they have been forever singing about as the mainstay of their arguments.

toba: Karo. Read what paul said in colossians1:19 FOR GOD WAS PLEASED TO HAVE ALL HIS FULNESS DWELL IN HIM. here paul is simply telling us to all d personalities dat makes God to be God was given to Jesus becos God wants a perfect person to redeem man.

CGKing: Same Jesus said I and my Father r one. What's the point of this thread self?

karo93:      First of all Jesus never stated that he was God and never mentioned that there was a trinity [the trinity was never mentioned in the bible] for if these were propounded by Jesus it would have been evident in the new testament-the letters of the apostles and the life of Jesus.

1. Using Jn 14:28
                 …I am going to the father; for he is greater than I.
If Jesus is OF ONE BEING WITH GOD why would he say he is going to the father who is greater than him?
2. Using Jn 14:1
                 …believe in God and believe also in me.
If Jesus is OF ONE BEING WITH GOD why would you need to believe in them separately
3. Using Mk 10:18
                 Why do you call me good? Jesus asked him. “No one is good except God alone.
If Jesus is OF ONE BEING WITH GOD why is he not goodI don’t think it is possible for some parts of God to be good and others are not.
4. Using Rev 5:7
                 The lamb [Jesus] went and took the scroll from the one who sits on the throne [God].
If Jesus is OF ONE BEING WITH GOD why would he take the scroll from himself? I cant take a scroll from myself.
5. Using Rev 5;13
           …To him who sits on the throne and to the lamb, be praise and honor, glory and might forever and ever.
If Jesus is OF ONE BEING WITH GOD why would praises be accorded to him and God separately??
If there was a TRINITY why would praises not be accorded to the holy spirit
6. Using Rev 22:1-2
                 , sparkling like crystal and coming from the throne of God and of the lamb.
If there was a TRINITY why is there no throne for the Holy Spirit
7. Using Jn 14:31 and Jn 16:13
                 , That I love the father; that is why I do everything he commands me.
                  …He will not speak on his own authority but on what he HEARS.
If Jesus and the Holy Spirit were of one being with God why don’t they speak on their own authority
If the Holy Spirit were of one beingu with God why does he speak on what he hears and not of what he knows
8.     Using Mk 16:19
                    After the lord had talked with them ,He  was taken up to heaven and sat at the right hand of God.
If Jesus is OF ONE BEING WITH GOD why would he be seated at the right side of Godi cant sit at my right side and neither can any part of me,


I can like this thread a hundred times

                                       DEFENDING JOHN 10:30
While trying to prove that Jesus is God everyone falls onto the above verse so I decided to explain what the verse “the father and I are one.”
What Jesus meant by the above verse is that he and the father are one because they both followed the same ways and followed the same path.
Using Jn 14:20
…you will know that I am in my father and that you are in me just as I am in you.
Here you understand that Jesus is in the father ONLY because he does the father’s will and his disciples are in him because they do his will and he is in them because they all follow the same path which makes them one with God too because they all follow the same path. a=b and b=c and a=c

in conclusion, Jesus is the son of God and the father, the son,and the holy spirit all exist separately.

Acts.3.13
The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob the God of our ancestors has given us divine glory to HIS SERVANT JESUS CHRIST.
Acts.3.26
And so God chose HIS SERVANT and sent him first to you to bless you by Making everyone of you turn from his wicked ways.
Acts.4.27
and the people of Israel against Jesus YOUR HOLY SERVANT WHO YOU MADE MESSIAH.

THE SERVANT AND THE MASTER Can never BE THE SAME PERSON AND THE ONE WHO WAS MADE Cannot BE THE One WHO MADE.

1.Cor.8.6
There is ONLY one GOD, THE FATHER, who is the CREATOR OF ALL THINGS and for whom we live and there is only one LORD, JESUS CHRIST through whom all things were created and through whom we live.

The normal saying [though not in the bible] is that
Father [Yahweh] +Son [Jesus] +holy spirit=GOD [trinity]
But this verse as quoted from the BIBLE tells us that, Father [Yahweh] =GOD [1]
And Son [Jesus] =LORD [1]

As this verse shows us, we live for the father [Yahweh] our God because he is our creator and not his son.

[For those confused about how the father made all things through the son I will explain like this; If you send your driver to give some goods to your mother, can it be said that it was your driver that generously gave to your mother??]

Lastly
Jn.3.35
The father loves the son and puts everything under his power.

Jesus cannot be God because he was “empowered” by someone which means that if Jesus is to be God there will always be a higher God-the one who empowered him.

[p.s. you cannot empower yourself but someone else.]

JMAN05:

That doesnt present any contradiction. He never mearnt oneness in person, but that they work for the same thing, just like you can say the same of your father.
Jesus however clearified matter in John 14:28:
You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.
The fact is this: Jesus is the only begotten son to the father. My brother almighty God can never be begotten or son to anybody. But Jesus is. God cannot call Jesus my God or call him my Father. NEVER! But is it not revealinga that Jesus can call HIM my God and Father. Never can the almighty be subjected to Jesus but Jesus can be to the Father.

leorayvon2k2:
please remember the following undisputable facts (this does not depend on your believe or unbelieve):
*Jesus is God
*Jesus is God the Son
*Jesus is the express image of the invisible God
*Jesus is NOT God's first creation
*Jesus CANNOT BE CROWNED KING OF KINGS! WHO WILL/CAN CROWN GOD KING?!
*Jesus is the GOD KING!
*Jesus is the God of Adam!
*Jesus is The Lord of All (Christians, Muslims, Budhist, Occultic, Atheist, Fetish, etc For He shall ressurect ALL TO FACE JUDGEMENT!!

yungpowers:
You really tried, though you weren't right in all. If I got you right, you said Jesus didn't create, rather he was created.
But remember this; In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. The word became flesh and made His dwelling among men.
through Him (the word= Jesus) all things were made. Without Him, nothing was made that has been made. John 1:1-3
The Father confirmed from the beginning that He create all with the son through this;
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image,
in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the
sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the
wild animals,[a ] and over all the creatures that move
along the ground.”
He was really referring to His son Jesus.
Thanks....You really tried, though you weren't right in all. If I got you right, you said Jesus didn't create, rather he was created.
But remember this; In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. The word became flesh and made His dwelling among men.
through Him (the word= Jesus) all things were made. Without Him, nothing was made that has been made. John 1:1-3
The Father confirmed from the beginning that He create all with the son through this;
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image,
in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the
sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the
wild animals,[a ] and over all the creatures that move
along the ground.”
He was really referring to His son Jesus.
Thanks....

Sorry madam but u dnt know what u re saying at all. God is one and has many personalities among which are the father son and the spirit. The 3 personalities are distinct but the God that created the universe is working in the three personalities.s
In Gen1 we read where the bible says 'the spirit of God was moving upon the waters'  Isaiah also said In Chapter 61 ' the spirit of God is upon me. Jesus promised to send the comforter in john14and he called him the spirit of God.

Jesus also in john 4 said God is a spirit. So both God and spirit are 1. Likewise Jesus and God are 1 see John 14 as well.



One thing that will help us is in Romans 20 vs 28b which says God purchased us with his blood. i.e the blood of jesus is the same as that of God.

tundexweb:

I don't see "romans 20 vs 28" in my bible,the chapters are limited to 16,how do u come about the aforementioned?

brocab:
Try Acts 20:28.